Khap Panchayat and Indian Judicial System

[yudhvirmor]

Dear fellow members,
It was Koyal,my 11 yr old daughter, who announced yesterday morning: Aaj to Khaps ke baare mein bahut aaya hua hai newspaper mein!
She was referring to the TOI links Kapil has given. She did not give me the newspaper till she read all that was written about Jats and Khaps on Page 1, 11 and the complete page 15.Seems TOI had dedicated yesterday's edition to Jats.
At the end she just said: Why should these people interfere with our customs and traditions?(probably because she is aware of the Gotra system which Bengalis and Mallus fail to understand.)

Coming to the article. I knew it was coming since the day I attended the Seminar organised By Col MS Dahiya(retd), at Maharaja Surajmal Institute, Janakpuri,ND on 30Aug'09.
One of the journalists' present there had told that TOI is soon coming out with a Big Story on Khaps.
What is driving their so much interest in this, I fail to understand.

Like everyone here, I too was curious about these Khaps and went to attend the Khap Panchayat at Jhajjar on 2 Aug while the Dharana Issue was at its peak( it was solved in the next Sarv Khap Panchayat on 9 Aug).
Though there was no other woman present except for one covering the event, I was never made to feel out of place.
The Khap Heads command respect because of their wise words and the experience they carry which is reflected in their speech.
Then suddenly I too was invited to speak. Do you not see the change taking place in Khaps? Else why would they want to hear the views of a woman?
My experience was overall very good.

And between all this discussion on serious issue an appeal was made to all to not go without having food! Simple food- roti-sabji,dal-chawal,raita and halwa.The warmth with which it was served would cool down tempers of anyone.
It is with this level head that decisions are taken and that too after hearing the views of all. Not in haste to just finish off the burden of cases but also not taking years as it often happens in the courts.
At least I am not against the Khaps.

These days there are a lot of Lok Adalats being conducted by the Courts. The government is encouraging these.
Recently, the Delhi Legal Services and Delhi Police has come up with lots of ads on Radio about Mediation Centres where family disputes are solved/both parties counselled/ court procedures avoided to solve matters peacefully and without burdening the courts.
Have the Khaps not been doing the same work since times immemorial?

There were various examples given during the Seminar at Surajmal Ins. by representatives of some Khaps where a number of cases were solved. One where as many as 20-25 murders had taken place between families and Khaps had succeeded in bringing peace. I think it was Jharonth.(Mr Narender Kharb and Mr Jitender Hooda would be able to give the exact details.)

Probably the Khaps are not media-savvy and do not know Image-Building concepts. I had requested them to invite the media whenever they were solving some matters so that they do not come to light only when some odd couple is murdered and the Khaps projected as Taliban issuing Fatwas.

Life is different in rural areas.All urban thoughts and systems should not be forced on them. Not that people are not ready for change.But it should suit them.
The younger generation with exposure to the outside world should give them ideas to keep pace with changes happening outside.
It is heartening to see people like Kapil,Sid,Anjoo,Meera,Sunil,Anil and many others here concerned about such issues pertaining to our community and society as whole.

regards,
bharti.

I think this is the truth.. Till date, No media house is able to bring some video footage or some written documents that says "Khap directed couple's family to kill them" Though I have never attended any Panchyat, I think people who speak their also have kind of inteligence to solve issues amicably. Majority of the times, Khap Panchayt asks couple to live out of village and reason is simple.. They don't want to setup wrong examples in village. Even our civil adminstartion does the same thing "Tadi Par"
Ask some unsocial element to stay out of district...

 

[samarkadian]

It is reactionary to give claification to spineless journalism. Does that particular journalist hold any qualification in social science, anthropology?

Any official press briefing by office bearers of khap on those articles? No..Why?

Though it an issue to encash upon by khaps. Those 4 articles shall be multiplied.

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

Media ka kaam dukandaar aala haai. Dukan wala ye nahi dekhta ki uska product expire ho chuka hai aur kisi ko nuksaan bhi pahuncha sakta hai. Same media wale aaj sabse bade terrorist bane baithe hain inki khabar aur baat sunke aadmi ghar se nikalna band kar de. Inko har seedhi baat ko controversial karne ka gur aata hai.
ek seedha sa example hai
"maaro mat jane do"
"maaro, mat jane do" ya "maro mat, jane do"
ab siraf coma ki baat hai ki wo kahan lagana hai aur ye coma hamesha controversy create karne wali jagah lagate hain.
Choice is all yours you want to follow your culture or not.

 

[anilsinghd]

Life is different in rural areas.All urban thoughts and systems should not be forced on them. Not that people are not ready for change.But it should suit them.
The younger generation with exposure to the outside world should give them ideas to keep pace with changes happening outside.

regards,
bharti.

Thanks Bharti ji , Indeed a good insight into things from your post.

I have repeated this N number of times that "traditions , procedures and processes , institutions and culture" are things that need to be built on and evolve with time. Precisely the reason that Khap Panchayats should evolve with time. And not only evolve but have a futuristic attitude and a forward looking approach.

Totally appreciate the step by yourself and other members of the forum (mentioned in your post) of the seminar and trying to bridge the gap. Happy to share thoughts and views if needed.


Indeed the right way to go.


Regards,
Anil

 

[kapdal]

Agreed. i am not a blind supporter of these Khaps either. After reading few posts in this thread, i got the impression that some members believe that panchayats are a rotten system meant only for ordering honor killing (directly or indirectly) nothing else; no other credentials,!! But truth is panchayats do play constructive roles in many issues (petty fights to monetary issues to huge land disputes). Nobody takes note of that. We should give them their due credit.

Agreed. Painting them in black as out and out villains is as big a folly as painting them in white as out and out heroes (which is also done on the same forum). Every society has its social organizations which are conservative/traditionalist yet important to protect indigenous culture/traditions. West has a variety of churches catering to a variety of people. In India itself, there is SGPC for Sikhs, Church for Christians, AIMPLB for Muslims and various other societies for Parsis, South Indians, etc. But the success/failure of a social organization is dependent on how flexible it is to evolve according to changing times. Unfortunately, in my opinion, Khaps have failed to deal with the issue of honour killings in an appropriate way.

Partly agree. Let us not forget, there are many (i would say majority of) incidents where honor killing takes place without anybody else (other than the family) knowing it.. Padosiyon ko bhi agle din pata chalta hai. in many cases even the exact reason of the killing remains a mystery.

If panchayats are the culprit of not condemning these killings so is every other single fabric of society.. Friends, relatives... no??

If u ask me: parents are the sole culprit here, they are responsible for their son/daughter' wrong doings, and then they kill 'them' to keep their 'honor' intact.

This is what I don't agree to. Khaps can't declare themselves as the authority in one case and then raise their hands in helplessness saying "What can we do?" in another case; both cases belonging to similar jurisdiction. Similarly, how can Khap argue that they don't have a role to play when the relatives are indulging in honor killings. By the same logic, they shouldn't have a role when the relatives are blessing a marriage (like in Dharana).

I will give a different example, which has an anology here, but we can deal with it without emotions. Let's say a thief, Chor robs a person, Imandar. Pancham claims to be the arbiter of justice and is also accepted as same by the general society. So Pancham takes some punitive action against Chor as per the accepted norms. Now Imandar thinks that is not enough and goes ahead and cuts off Chor's hands and blinds him. There would always be Junta (the public) and the Bahubalis (the powerful) who would say Chor was a wretched person and Imandar was a hero for teaching a lesson to him. But what should Pancham do? Can he say that I gave my judgment on Chor and I am helpless if Imandar felt so strongly about it to punish Chor so severely on his own? Pancham may be right as per the Junta and the Bahubalis, but he is not being just and he loses the moral authority. If Pancham is the authority and a fair/just one at that, then he has to punish Imandar as well for the crime he has committed, to the best of his capacity.

You have raised valid operational points (that I'll attempt to answer) on what Khaps can actually do or if whatever they do would be effective or not. But my main point is on principles, which are paramount in matters of justice. A judiciary (and Khaps claim to be one with centuries of experience) can't pick and choose cases that it wants to pass judgments on. It has to look (Atleast attempt!) at all the issues that are there in its jurisdiction; fairly and justly.

Now coming to the operational part, probably there is not much that Khaps can do, since they don't have a defined role/responsibility in the Indian state (Note that the same applies in cases of gotra marriages or land disputes, etc.). Certainly, they can't do an investigation with post-mortems, etc. What they do have, or atleast claim to have, is the moral authority. And they must exercise it by not only condemning the killings unconditionally, but also taking action against the accused by imposing fines or social penalties (gaon nikala ya hukka paani band). I don't think the identity of the accused is that big a secret inside a village when the crimes happen in public view or when the accused come and proclaim their deeds publicly on TV. Certainly, Khaps may not be able to take action in all cases for lack of information. But, problem right now is that they have not taken action in a single case of honor killing. There is a big problem with a judiciary that passively accepts the vigilante justice being given out in its jurisdiction by the Junta and the Bahubalis. This is what Khaps have been doing. The point is not about shifting the blame from parents to Khaps. It is about whether Khaps are fulfilling the responsibility they have proclaimed as theirs.

Eventually, it is upto the state to prosecute the accused as per the Indian law. The only constructive role that Khaps can play in the process is to come down as hardly (if not more) on those guilty of honor killings, as it does on those guilty of same gotra marriages.

The reasons for such killings is either incestuous or same village affair. period.
Can panchayats say it is okey to be in such relationships?? will u say so??

But two wrongs don't make a right, my friend. Khaps don't have to give a green light to same gotra/village marriage if it rules against the honor killings. It doesn't have to choose one of the two, it can reject both.

PS: I would accept the gotra system as our own tradition. But one must be careful with the usual justifications given for it (why bother with justifications for traditions in the first place?). I think incestous would be a wrong word to choose for 2 unrelated people just sharing the same gotra.

Another thing: Lets us assume that some how panchayats start 'actively' condemning the 'honor killing. Will it stop??
I don't think it will stop. i even doubt if the number will come down just because panchayats say it is wrong.
There are death penalty and other punishments for murder, rap etc in Indian penal code, but still these things are happening. (i know lame excuse but Truth is lame at times).

I can use the same logic to argue why bother about same gotra marriages when your punishments are not having any effect (in terms of nos. coming down, etc.)...

The principles behind giving justice through punishment are not only about eradicating the crime. It is accepted that no punishment would ever eradicate a crime. But if there is no punishment, it'd be a free for all. I think it was Socrates/Plato who came up with this theory on justice that human beings are more than willing to cause hurt to others, what stops them is the fear of being hurt by a similar action from the opposite side. The concept of justice institutionalizes this fear. One can realize the power of deterrence only when it is not there, something none of us would want to test.

 

[sunillathwal]

1. Though there was no other woman present except for one covering the event, I was never made to feel out of place.

2. Then suddenly I too was invited to speak. Do you not see the change taking place in Khaps? Else why would they want to hear the views of a woman? My experience was overall very good.

3. It is with this level head that decisions are taken and that too after hearing the views of all. Not in haste to just finish off the burden of cases but also not taking years as it often happens in the courts.

4. These days there are a lot of Lok Adalats being conducted by the Courts. The government is encouraging these.

5. There were various examples given during the Seminar at Surajmal Ins. by representatives of some Khaps where a number of cases were solved. One where as many as 20-25 murders had taken place between families and Khaps had succeeded in bringing peace.

6. The Khaps are not media-savvy and do not know Image-Building concepts. I had requested them to invite the media whenever they were solving some matters so that they do not come to light only when some odd couple is murdered and the Khaps projected as Taliban issuing Fatwas.

7. Life is different in rural areas.All urban thoughts and systems should not be forced on them. Not that people are not ready for change.But it should suit them.

8. The younger generation with exposure to the outside world should give them ideas to keep pace with changes happening outside.

This post covers almost all the points raised so far..

Unfortunately, in my opinion, Khaps have failed to deal with the issue of honour killings in an appropriate way.

Khaps can't declare themselves as the authority in one case and then raise their hands in helplessness saying "What can we do?" in another case; both cases belonging to similar jurisdiction. Similarly, how can Khap argue that they don't have a role to play when the relatives are indulging in honor killings. By the same logic, they shouldn't have a role when the relatives are blessing a marriage (like in Dharana).


You have raised valid operational points (that I'll attempt to answer) on what Khaps can actually do or if whatever they do would be effective or not. But my main point is on principles, which are paramount in matters of justice. A judiciary (and Khaps claim to be one with centuries of experience) can't pick and choose cases that it wants to pass judgments on. It has to look (Atleast attempt!) at all the issues that are there in its jurisdiction; fairly and justly.

Now coming to the operational part, probably there is not much that Khaps can do, since they don't have a defined role/responsibility in the Indian state (Note that the same applies in cases of gotra marriages or land disputes, etc.). I don't think the identity of the accused is that big a secret inside a village when the crimes happen in public view or when the accused come and proclaim their deeds publicly on TV.

But two wrongs don't make a right, my friend. Khaps don't have to give a green light to same gotra/village marriage if it rules against the honor killings. It doesn't have to choose one of the two, it can reject both.

I can use the same logic to argue why bother about same gotra marriages when your punishments are not having any effect (in terms of nos. coming down, etc.)...

Kapil, let me put your concern/query in simpler words:
Khap pnachyats do 'act' in same gotra marriage but not against honor killings! Why?

Typical case: There is a dispute between two individuals, they can opt for going to police or to panchayats. {Panchyats hardly go to somebody's home to sort out any issue. it is always one party or other who ask panchayats to intervene).}
In case of prohibited-gotra marriage, there are a lot of people who are 'affected'. As pointed out by Bharti ji, rural life is different. It creates a 'moral' issue for a particular gotra. Our constitution/courts are of no help in this matter. So, a group of people approach panchayat or khap panchayats. Decision taken by these institutes is 'agreeable' by both the sides (may be the couple in this case is not happy, but the Two gotra ppl are!!!). If khap-panchayat is not able to do that, then the matter is put forwarded to sarv-khap panchayat.

Now, your point that if panchayat is not 'acting' on honor killing (personal matter) then they should not 'act' in same marriage either (again same personal choice)!!
If you look closely, then panchayat is NOT intruding their personal space.. Panchayat role is to somehow solve the 'issue' raised by such a marriage which is affecting another set of people (gotra) and again it does so because it is approached for the same!!
Panchayat does not take issues by its own. i am sure there are marriages which are against the set norms (eg. ppl migrated from village to city and then marrying somebody close to that villages). Did panchayat go and hand out the 'boycott farman' for such couple?? no!!
On similar lines, there are many ppl lodged in jails for various crimes by the law, Panchayats don't go and try to change the verdict in those cases.

Point i am trying to drive here is that Panchayats do NOT take issues as per their wish; people approach panchyats as per their convenience.

In case of honor killings, nobody else is really 'affected' (and if there is somebody, then he/she does not approach panchayat). i am sure if one go and raise the issue, they will do the best of their capacities. Point is who will raise the question?? Neighbors, relatives, friends, family, you, me?? Who??

Kapil, therotically speaking, they can condemn such acts BUT as u pointed out in your post panchayats have a very limited role. i am not very sure about the composition of kahp-panchyats and their agendas but as i know these are normal folks with their families and job etc, they meet only when there is some 'issue' at hand and try to sort out a most agreeable solution.

For the sake of argument:
Kapil, why u think that state law (equipped with all sort of punishments and being the supreme authority) is not able to stop these (apparently) rampant honor killings???
Does state (which is of course ignorant about the rural sensitivities regarding gotra system) not have this responsibility of punishing those guilty of honor killing?? why even state is failing??

 

[sidchhikara]

For the sake of argument:
Kapil, why u think that state law (equipped with all sort of punishments and being the supreme authority) is not able to stop these (apparently) rampant honor killings???
Does state (which is of course ignorant about the rural sensitivities regarding gotra system) not have this responsibility of punishing those guilty of honor killing?? why even state is failing??

Good question.
I think the answer is that we are a banana republic.

 

[kapdal]

Kapil, let me put your concern/query in simpler words:
Khap pnachyats do 'act' in same gotra marriage but not against honor killings! Why?

Sunil,

I think these are valid arguments to "justify" Khaps' inaction on honor killings. As you noted, I had acknowledged Khaps' limited "official" capacity as well. Indeed, one can think of other such arguments to absolve the Khaps. But the debate that whether Khaps don't take action because they silently approve of these murders (bad reason) or because they are helpless/not approached (good reason) would be pointless from the perspective of the point I was trying to make.

My last post is my opinion on "Why Khaps must take action" and not a question- "Khaps don't take action. Why?" The point I was trying to stress on was the question of moral authority. Khaps are social organizations. The role of a social organization is to provide leadership to the society on social issues. Honor killings are as much of a social issue as same gotra marriages. While the cause of Khaps' inaction is debatable, the effect is not- it significantly erodes their moral authority. When that goes, not much is left. Today newspapers are questioning their wisdom, tomorrow everyone would. If I was a member of Khap, I'd have felt obliged to act on such cases, to the best of my capacity. To relinquish a duty on semantics may be convenient but not visionary.

 

[kapdal]

For the sake of argument:
Kapil, why u think that state law (equipped with all sort of punishments and being the supreme authority) is not able to stop these (apparently) rampant honor killings???
Does state (which is of course ignorant about the rural sensitivities regarding gotra system) not have this responsibility of punishing those guilty of honor killing?? why even state is failing??

It is a separate argument from the point I was making earlier, but for the sake of argument..

Firstly, I think the amount of rampant-ness of honor killings is a hype created by the media. The very reason I wrote an angst-filled comment to Ms. Sengupta for the shoddy journalism she delivered. The Indian state fails to deliver on many law and order issues, so this is nothing special. Much less dangerous than Naxals, who are upto something much more sinister.

Having said that, state is anyways ill-equipped to deal with this issue as it is a social problem. The policemen/prosecutors come from the same society, thus undermining the possible punitive action. In fact, punishments by State may actually be counterproductive as it'd be seen as "outsider" action. It is important for the punishments to be given by an authority that people believe in, if they have to act as a deterrent. In any case, they can't be the sole remedial action. The aim should be to look beyond punishments.

A social problem can be solved only through social reforms, backed by state action. An example of the same is Sati, against which Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj and other social reformers campaigned against through 19th/20th century, backed by anti-Sati laws. Till then, there was as much honor in Sati as well, if not more. Who can undertake social reforms- the one who exercises moral leadership over the masses. The current politicians clearly don't have it (At a time, probably Ch. Chhotu Ram/Ch. Charan Singh or Ch. Devi Lal did). Khaps, who probably have the moral authority, are unwilling to look at the problem for whatever reasons.

 

[annch]

By the way, which political party in Haryana is supporting the rejuvenation of Khap Panchayats?

 

[vicky84]

By the way, which political party in Haryana is supporting the rejuvenation of Khap Panchayats?

I believe every political party...

As its just a matter of getting votes..no matter how they come from..which way they come from...Political parties need power and supporting Khap Panchayats is one of the way to get into power...

 

[annch]

Thanks for the info.....have khap panchayats given any indication which party they are supporting?

I believe every political party...

As its just a matter of getting votes..no matter how they come from..which way they come from...Political parties need power and supporting Khap Panchayats is one of the way to get into power...

 

[vicky84]

Thanks for the info.....have khap panchayats given any indication which party they are supporting?

As far as my knowledge is concerned, khap panchayats do not support any political party officially but could be some internal politics where they are biased on supporting some party...

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

Panchayat have their own system they are not governed by any govt. or political party. They are not getting any donations or rembursements from anyone. Panchayatis spend from their own pocket. What type of reforms do you expect?
Panchayat is an old democracy system. Few rules were made and asked to follow.
1) Every Girl of your gotra and you village is your sister . And you are not allowed to marry a girl of your gotra.
2)You are not allowed to marry in your mother's grand mother's or granny's gotra. Now granny is exempted.
3)If a village is having two gotras then both are brothers and sisters. No one allowed to marry in other's gotra.
4) Intercaste marriage is not allowed (which is no more in practice)
5) From very old times widow is remarried to Younger/ Elder brother of person died. And a man can marry his sister in law. These were first prefrences.

Agar ye bhi bahut bade kanoon hain to koi kuch nahi kar sakta

 

[malikdeepak1]

Panchayat have their own system they are not governed by any govt. or political party. They are not getting any donations or rembursements from anyone. Panchayatis spend from their own pocket. What type of reforms do you expect?
Panchayat is an old democracy system. Few rules were made and asked to follow.
1) Every Girl of your gotra and you village is your sister . And you are not allowed to marry a girl of your gotra.
2)You are not allowed to marry in your mother's grand mother's or granny's gotra. Now granny is exempted.
3)If a village is having two gotras then both are brothers and sisters. No one allowed to marry in other's gotra.
4) Intercaste marriage is not allowed (which is no more in practice)
5) From very old times widow is remarried to Younger/ Elder brother of person died. And a man can marry his sister in law. These were first prefrences.

Agar ye bhi bahut bade kanoon hain to koi kuch nahi kar sakta

Rakesh bhai agreed on all the rules, but differ slightly on the point highlighted above. Panchayats are not meant only for resolving issues, rather they play a much bigger role in development of the village and for that they definitely get grant from the government. They may be operating on their own for some settlement of local issue but for the development purpose they do get money from govt. No body in this world has such a big heart to spend continuously for 5 years for others.
And Panchayats ARE a part of our system. Only KHAAP panchayats are not.
Shayad isliye sarpanch ke election bhi hote h gaon me..

 

[jitendershooda]

It is a separate argument from the point I was making earlier, but for the sake of argument..

Firstly, I think the amount of rampant-ness of honor killings is a hype created by the media. The very reason I wrote an angst-filled comment to Ms. Sengupta for the shoddy journalism she delivered. The Indian state fails to deliver on many law and order issues, so this is nothing special. Much less dangerous than Naxals, who are upto something much more sinister.

Having said that, state is anyways ill-equipped to deal with this issue as it is a social problem. The policemen/prosecutors come from the same society, thus undermining the possible punitive action. In fact, punishments by State may actually be counterproductive as it'd be seen as "outsider" action. It is important for the punishments to be given by an authority that people believe in, if they have to act as a deterrent. In any case, they can't be the sole remedial action. The aim should be to look beyond punishments.

A social problem can be solved only through social reforms, backed by state action. An example of the same is Sati, against which Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj and other social reformers campaigned against through 19th/20th century, backed by anti-Sati laws. Till then, there was as much honor in Sati as well, if not more. Who can undertake social reforms- the one who exercises moral leadership over the masses. The current politicians clearly don't have it (At a time, probably Ch. Chhotu Ram/Ch. Charan Singh or Ch. Devi Lal did). Khaps, who probably have the moral authority, are unwilling to look at the problem for whatever reasons.

The last sentence in BOLD can be solution to all the problems. If you look into this matter of Panchayats/Khaps/Honour Killings etc. Who is the real culprit?

India was divided into different rajwadas during British and before that. In different areas different Castes were residing having their different set of customs and culture. So do Jats and other castes have had in this area. These cultures and traditions were being followed from centuries.

Britishers were so clever that they never came into such disputes or say they have recognised the culture and traditions followed by people of different areas. They have discovered customary laws for different areas. Now India got free, the first government had a quite good intention in mind to bring reforms in the society. BUT How should they have taken this forward?

A social problem can be solved only through social reforms, backed by state action.

But they never acted on your lines. They have put a commette headed by a south indian. That came up with few REFORMS (so called) in 1955.

They left 5 degrees of father gen and 3 of mothers. BUT on the other hand TamilNadu and pondicherry was given rebate out of it in terms of special act/point. Because there were matriarchal society and to keep Mothers land or some others reasons may be there they have a practice to marry girl to her maternal uncle itself. Then why not people of this area were taken into confidence?

Now, you can see that during those times there was not much media involved and I can bet that most of the people of this area didnt know about these type of reforms till 90's.

One elderly Gahlawat Ji, told during Rohtak's seminar that he was present there in parliament deergha that day. And even AbulKalam Azad said that its Stupid. What are you doing Mr Nehru. But Nehru was the sole ruler and so with little opposition it was passed without any spread of news in societies affecting due to this.

In the meantime through TV/Media such movies were shown where marriage happens in the same village and other sort of things affecting youths mind. Now one took such step .... people reacted fearcly and what message gone in public through now much active media is that they are villians. If the law of this country allows them then Who they are to stop them?

These cases have been in majority if a study is carried out then I am sure that 95% of the cases would have been recorded during past 10 years when media is going more active and bringing all sorts of impacts in the society.

Now today there are clashes between society/such couples/state. WHO is responsible and root cause for the same? Even today How state is behaving? Any efforts from our so called reliable state backed by full proof law to reach to root cause?

Panchayats/Khaps looking at the problems faced during marriages they themselves are relaxing some way or the other. It clearly shows that if some state wise discussions are carried out then some permanent solution could be traced out.

If the necessary things will be added into law and rest will be made clear to the khaps and general public. Then there will be less conflicts and thus less honour killings. If one thing will be covered by law and other will be rejected by law as well as by khaps/panchayats (Means people of that area) then there will be no breach of honour and thus no such reactions from families of the couples concerned.

 

[jitendershooda]

Nice

Nice to go through such a healthy discussion on this thread.

Agreed. Painting them in black as out and out villains is as big a folly as painting them in white as out and out heroes (which is also done on the same forum). Every society has its social organizations which are conservative/traditionalist yet important to protect indigenous culture/traditions.


This is what I don't agree to. Khaps can't declare themselves as the authority in one case and then raise their hands in helplessness saying "What can we do?" in another case; both cases belonging to similar jurisdiction. Similarly, how can Khap argue that they don't have a role to play when the relatives are indulging in honor killings. By the same logic, they shouldn't have a role when the relatives are blessing a marriage (like in Dharana).

Eventually, it is upto the state to prosecute the accused as per the Indian law. The only constructive role that Khaps can play in the process is to come down as hardly (if not more) on those guilty of honor killings, as it does on those guilty of same gotra marriages.



But two wrongs don't make a right, my friend. Khaps don't have to give a green light to same gotra/village marriage if it rules against the honor killings. It doesn't have to choose one of the two, it can reject both.


The principles behind giving justice through punishment are not only about eradicating the crime. It is accepted that no punishment would ever eradicate a crime. But if there is no punishment, it'd be a free for all. I think it was Socrates/Plato who came up with this theory on justice that human beings are more than willing to cause hurt to others, what stops them is the fear of being hurt by a similar action from the opposite side. The concept of justice institutionalizes this fear. One can realize the power of deterrence only when it is not there, something none of us would want to test.

This post covers almost all the points raised so far..



Kapil, let me put your concern/query in simpler words:
Khap pnachyats do 'act' in same gotra marriage but not against honor killings! Why?

Typical case: There is a dispute between two individuals, they can opt for going to police or to panchayats. {Panchyats hardly go to somebody's home to sort out any issue. it is always one party or other who ask panchayats to intervene).}
In case of prohibited-gotra marriage, there are a lot of people who are 'affected'. As pointed out by Bharti ji, rural life is different. It creates a 'moral' issue for a particular gotra. Our constitution/courts are of no help in this matter. So, a group of people approach panchayat or khap panchayats. Decision taken by these institutes is 'agreeable' by both the sides (may be the couple in this case is not happy, but the Two gotra ppl are!!!). If khap-panchayat is not able to do that, then the matter is put forwarded to sarv-khap panchayat.

Now, your point that if panchayat is not 'acting' on honor killing (personal matter) then they should not 'act' in same marriage either (again same personal choice)!!
If you look closely, then panchayat is NOT intruding their personal space.. Panchayat role is to somehow solve the 'issue' raised by such a marriage which is affecting another set of people (gotra) and again it does so because it is approached for the same!!
Panchayat does not take issues by its own. i am sure there are marriages which are against the set norms (eg. ppl migrated from village to city and then marrying somebody close to that villages). Did panchayat go and hand out the 'boycott farman' for such couple?? no!!
On similar lines, there are many ppl lodged in jails for various crimes by the law, Panchayats don't go and try to change the verdict in those cases.

Point i am trying to drive here is that Panchayats do NOT take issues as per their wish; people approach panchyats as per their convenience.

In case of honor killings, nobody else is really 'affected' (and if there is somebody, then he/she does not approach panchayat). i am sure if one go and raise the issue, they will do the best of their capacities. Point is who will raise the question?? Neighbors, relatives, friends, family, you, me?? Who??

Kapil, therotically speaking, they can condemn such acts BUT as u pointed out in your post panchayats have a very limited role. i am not very sure about the composition of kahp-panchyats and their agendas but as i know these are normal folks with their families and job etc, they meet only when there is some 'issue' at hand and try to sort out a most agreeable solution.

For the sake of argument:
Kapil, why u think that state law (equipped with all sort of punishments and being the supreme authority) is not able to stop these (apparently) rampant honor killings???
Does state (which is of course ignorant about the rural sensitivities regarding gotra system) not have this responsibility of punishing those guilty of honor killing?? why even state is failing??

 

[kapdal]

What type of reforms do you expect?
Panchayat is an old democracy system. Few rules were made and asked to follow.
1) Every Girl of your gotra and you village is your sister . And you are not allowed to marry a girl of your gotra.
2)You are not allowed to marry in your mother's grand mother's or granny's gotra. Now granny is exempted.
3)If a village is having two gotras then both are brothers and sisters. No one allowed to marry in other's gotra.
4) Intercaste marriage is not allowed (which is no more in practice)
5) From very old times widow is remarried to Younger/ Elder brother of person died. And a man can marry his sister in law. These were first prefrences.

Agar ye bhi bahut bade kanoon hain to koi kuch nahi kar sakta

Not sure if you are appreciating the discussion. No one is taking an issue with the above rules. Creating a false impression that members are arguing against the social customs doesn't serve any useful purpose (Pity is that this is not the first time). I mentioned REFORMS in the context of honor killings. I know you are a firm supporter of honor killings. And this is the need for social reforms- as even educated people think it is right to kill someone who doesn't abide by a social custom. The next step would be to kill someone who doesn't agree with you.

If a social custom has to be put in practise through such extreme force, it doesn't bode well for the custom. What would be the % of same gotra marriages in our community? I bet it would be less than 0.1% (inter-caste would be much higher). Hell is not going to break loose if a few couples disobey the social customs. An apt punishment would be to ex-communicate them from the society whose rules they don't abide by. It is accepted by the civil society all across the world that only the rarest of rare crimes warrant capital punishment. In the first place, it'd be difficult to argue that marriage by consenting adults is a crime. And it is not only the killed who are victimised, but the killers too. They are left with life long trips to courts apart from a broken family and emotional trauma. And the whole community gets tarnished as "Talibani". Talk about a lose-lose trade.

 

[samarkadian]

I put a comment (reproduced below) addressed to the journalist on the above link, criticising her piece. While there are 52 comments on the link associated with Tikait, many of them highly critical of Tikait (rightly so in my opinion), my comment has not been published yet. Let's see how much TOI believes in freedom of speech and expression. This was my letter:

Dear Ms Sengupta,

Kapil, did you recieve any feedback from TOI?

 

[kapdal]

Kapil, did you recieve any feedback from TOI?

Not yet. Don't think so that I'd get any feedback. I also tried looking for a way to write directly to the editor. But strangely didn't find any link on TOI website. Much more reknowned reporters put down their real email addresses to interact directly with readers. If you have any link, let me know. Ms. Sengupta anyways seems to be hopeless. She carries her prejudices on her sleeves. Her description on her TOI blog says "Her blog is mainly about women and the young, and about men when they deserve a mention." Interestingly, I also found a website where she had ranted big time about the sub-standard journalism of TOI. This was in 2005 and she was in HT then. Read the 2nd last comment:
http://wef.blogs.com/editors/2005/06/india_the_ragin.html

If nothing, probably her new employer, should try and find out what resulted in a change of heart...