Khap Panchayat and Indian Judicial System

[mann123]

Is this a really a problem of gotra's? I doubt as Jats have more than 350 गोत्र हैं उनमे ते ५-७ छोड़ दिए तो कुन सा साका होगया...बड़े बुद्दे कहते ई से ७ घर तो daayan भी छोडे से ..हाम के ७ गोत न छोड़ सकते ...
एक और बात मैं समझता हूँ के पंचायत का काम सामाजिक विरोध से होना चाहिए न की जान लेने के.. और भाई कहती हाना भी शर्म आ से येः पंच्याती रेअक्टिव हैं प्रोअक्टिवे न से...यह सुसरे जीब कित जा से जब एक पान्ने के छोहरे दुसरी पान्ने की छोहरिया पे लाइन मारे से... उनने कोई दिक्कत न होती..
भाइयो क्यों सारी कुहहो से मेरे पे अक गाम मैं आज के हो से बाकी ब्याह होए पाछे उन ने पानी सेर ते उपार धिखे से वैसे असामाजिक रिश्ता हैं तो कोए प्रॉब्लम न से

 

[dskadyan]

Clarification

Aur aapke hisaab se "so Kadyan ki ladki wahan par thousands ki Beti ho jatee hai. Woh Chora gaam ala ka jamai ban ja hai. Aur mhare gamma main sath khele hode ne jamai koye na banawata." Kuchh sau ek gahlawat bhi honge same gaon mein. Toh un sau ek ka kya neg banega jab gahlawat chhori gaon mein bahu ban ke aayegi- bahu ka ki beti ka? Ya fir unka gaon mein same hak hi na hai kyunki gaon kadyan ka hai?

Bhai Wahan Kuch sau nahi hai gahlot. Thats why its not other way round. This is what i am telling you. Aur 1-2 parivar wale, ek gaon mein 10-20 gotra ho jate hai.

 

[dskadyan]

[

Aur aapke hisaab se "so Kadyan ki ladki wahan par thousands ki Beti ho jatee hai. Woh Chora gaam ala ka jamai ban ja hai. Aur mhare gamma main sath khele hode ne jamai koye na banawata." Kuchh sau ek gahlawat bhi honge same gaon mein. Toh un sau ek ka kya neg banega jab gahlawat chhori gaon mein bahu ban ke aayegi- bahu ka ki beti ka? Ya fir unka gaon mein same hak hi na hai kyunki gaon kadyan ka hai?[/QUOTE]



भाई इस बात का जवाब मेरे धोरे है : मजोरिटी ............जिसकी मजोरिटी होगी उसकी वलुए है ........उस जगह .
उदाहरण के लिए : अगर मान्दोठी में पांच घर गहलावत के है तो वो दलाल की लड़की ब्याह के ला सकते है ?


अगर जवाब मिले तो भेजना .......... मान्दोठी, दलाल खप ताहि पहुंचा दूंगा ...
और हाम तो असली गलती लड़की वाले की मानते है .....उसे पत्ता होते हुए वो ऐसा करता है ........वो सबसे नीच है .फेर तो अपने घर ही सदी कर दे बहार जाने की जरूरत क्या है , .........हम तो कट्टर जाट खाप का समर्थन करते है , इस सिलसिले में सख्ती से पैस आना चाहिए खाप को ,और ऐसी सजा देनी चाहिए की आगे कोई भाईचारे को बिगाड़ने की कोसिस न करे .

 

[mann123]

Bhai Saab

Waa saja kisisk se honee chaiye?? Matlab phaasee ...jahar de ke marana...ak aur kimme?

[हम तो कट्टर जाट खाप का समर्थन करते है , इस सिलसिले में सख्ती से पैस आना चाहिए खाप को ,और ऐसी सजा देनी चाहिए की आगे कोई भाईचारे को बिगाड़ने की कोसिस न करे .

 

[jitendershooda]

Jitu, a clarification- maan, sehwag, deswal and dalal is universal bhaichara. They can't marry anywhere. The logic for that is common ancestry.

Some logic that has been given at some places about genetics, etc. also needs to be taken in a balanced way. The gotras have become huge in themselves. It is not necessary at all that 2 people of same gotra would have similar genes if there is no direct relationship between them. My child would have a much higher chance (in relative terms, not absolute terms) of having the same genes as desecendant of my paternal/maternal grandmothers or great grandmothers who don't share my gotra than someone from my Gotra with whom I don't share ancestry over 5-6 generations. This is not an argument to support same gotra marriage. But just to clarify that a same gotra marriage is not equivalent to inbreeding that is practised amongst Muslims.

Very well said.

Regarding the bhaichara thing I was putting more complex situations that may arise. Some with universal bhaichara might have bhaichara with specific villages too.

Also when in a village one gotr can marry in other gotr residing in the same village? Majority/minority doesnt seems good to me ... it must be related to ancestory like when Gahlawat's were aulad of a kadian girl of dharana etc. In this case Kadian's can marry in gahlawats of other village as one can marry in the same gotr (not the same village) in which his sister is married (correct me if I am wrong). But Gahlawat's shouldnt marry as Kadian's are their Mama looking at the roots of that village.

Now complexity is in yours question in earlier post .... that what will be the criteria of the population to consider a village or kasba and relax rules like kahnaur, kalanaur etc. Means when can one marry within same kasba or village(big village with several outsider gotr etc)?
Iss area mein bahut sare log bahar se akar base hue hein refugee's ki jameene leke like patwapur there are gulia, kundu and other outsider gotras so what should be left and what shouldnt?

 

[kapdal]

[

भाई इस बात का जवाब मेरे धोरे है : मजोरिटी ............जिसकी मजोरिटी होगी उसकी वलुए है ........उस जगह .
उदाहरण के लिए : अगर मान्दोठी में पांच घर गहलावत के है तो वो दलाल की लड़की ब्याह के ला सकते है ?


अगर जवाब मिले तो भेजना .......... मान्दोठी, दलाल खप ताहि पहुंचा दूंगा ...
और हाम तो असली गलती लड़की वाले की मानते है .....उसे पत्ता होते हुए वो ऐसा करता है ........वो सबसे नीच है .फेर तो अपने घर ही सदी कर दे बहार जाने की जरूरत क्या है , .........हम तो कट्टर जाट खाप का समर्थन करते है , इस सिलसिले में सख्ती से पैस आना चाहिए खाप को ,और ऐसी सजा देनी चाहिए की आगे कोई भाईचारे को बिगाड़ने की कोसिस न करे .

Agar dalal aur gahlawat us gaon mein bhaichara maante hain to gahlwaton ko dalal ki ladki byah ke nahin laani chaahiye. Aur dalalon ko bhi gahlawaton ki ladki byah ke nahin laani chaahiye. Tu to jiski laathi uski bhains waali baat karr raha hai. Na ki bhaichaare waali...

I can think of a million situations where "majority is right" can lead to horrifying consequences. I'd be surprised if Khap Panchayats have the same stand. It doesn't even have the pretense of a moral ground!

 

[ajit2009]

Agar dalal aur gahlawat us gaon mein bhaichara maante hain to gahlwaton ko dalal ki ladki byah ke nahin laani chaahiye. Aur dalalon ko bhi gahlawaton ki ladki byah ke nahin laani chaahiye. Tu to jiski laathi uski bhains waali baat karr raha hai. Na ki bhaichaare waali...

I can think of a million situations where "majority is right" can lead to horrifying consequences. I'd be surprised if Khap Panchayats have the same stand. It doesn't even have the pretense of a moral ground!

:rockbhai bhains aur manasa me bahut farak hai fer lathi ka jikar chod .isne tale dhar le ,kade gam me ana pade to kisi budhe dhore baith ke batlaiye .........khani akele vicharo se nahi ...kuch mahsoos karne se hoti hai

 

[kapdal]

:rockbhai bhains aur manasa me bahut farak hai fer lathi ka jikar chod .isne tale dhar le ,kade gam me ana pade to kisi budhe dhore baith ke batlaiye .........khani akele vicharo se nahi ...kuch mahsoos karne se hoti hai

Bhai main apne vichaar de raha hoon na ki boodhe ke. Haan gaam jaake nyun bera jaroor paat ja se ki sirf isse isse maamlon mein boodhe ki suni ja se.

 

[raka]

Ajit bhai, thanks for the facts. But if Kadyan boy marrying a gahlot girl is not a problem then why is there a problem in a gahlot boy marrying a kadyan girl? Bhaichara should be both ways, no?

bhai kapil gaon ka kheda dekhya ja s ak kunse gottar ka s aur us gaon me basne wale dusre gottar walo ko us khede ko basane walo ke saath baichara rakhna pade s. rahi baat kasbe ki to bhai lal dore me basne wale gottar me sab isi riwaaj ne maane s .

 

[kapdal]

bhai kapil gaon ka kheda dekhya ja s ak kunse gottar ka s aur us gaon me basne wale dusre gottar walo ko us khede ko basane walo ke saath baichara rakhna pade s. rahi baat kasbe ki to bhai lal dore me basne wale gottar me sab isi riwaaj ne maane s .

Hmmm...thanks for the info..

 

[anilsinghd]

LEKIN YAHAN MAIN ISSUE IS "IS IT NOT A GOOD WAY OF SORTING OUT SOCIAL ISSUE IN PANCHAYAT AND WE SHOULD RESPECT THAT"? SHADI AND GOTRA IS ONE OF THEM BUT NOT ALL.

Devender I agree with you that we should focus on the main issue.

Frankly I have nothing against the panchayats if they act rationally over things and can keep the emotions away from this.

I guess we can divide any issue in two separate buckets based on time.
Once before it can happen , one aft er it has happened.

And the reaction function of the decision etc are / should be totally diff erent in both cases.


main panchayaton ki baat se sehmat hun ki in samaj ke niyamon ko follow karna chahiye lekin yeh sab tab hai jab woh issue hua nahi hai , uske liye panchayat kya kar rahi hai ? Kya koi programs , workshops , information flow ki jaa rahi hai aaj ke youth mein ki kya sahi hai kya galat hai ?
Aise progressive kadam liye jaane chahiye jinse sabhi ke paas cheejon ki knowledge ho. Bhai i guess you will agr ee that prevention is better than cure.

jahan tak baat issue hone ke baad ki hai , i dont think ki kadi saja dena , gaon nikala dena poori family ko , monteary jurmana etc are any solutions.
yahin JL pe hi ek thread mein padha tha ki ZEE news pe interview diya us chhori ne to kaha ki 21k rapiye le ke panchayat use beti se bahu maan legi ? bhai baat bahut sahi kahi hai us ladki ne , agar shaanti se sochi jaye to ...

 

[kapdal]

Bhai i guess you will agr ee that prevention is better than cure.

Yes, very good point! Problem isi baat se hai ki saara kaam ho jaane pe kuchh log apna hanga dikhana chaahte hain. Maine pehle waale thread pe bhi poochha tha ki kisi ko to khabar rahi hogi shaadi se pehle, is case mein to bhaja ke nahin laaye the...proper shaadi hui thi. Tab panchayat ne khilafat ki thi ki nahin? Ab rolla karne se kya faayda hoga- ab to shaadi ho gayi. Aisa bhi nahin hai ki example set kiya ja raha hai. Har 2-4 mahine mein ek naya maamla aa jaata hai. Kisi case mein jabran rakhi bandhwaayi jaati hai, kisi case main murder karr diya jaata hai. Kuchh logon ki zindagi barbaad hoti hai aur mudda to wahi rehta hai. Aisa to hua nahin ki yeh sab karne se case band ho gaye.

 

[ambijat]

The khap system has been one of the most oppressive instruments. Had they have larger merit then why other civil and violent disputes not being taken up.
I doubt the lack of civil society concerns in the khap norms have been questioned by any khap members. No system how so ever ancient and particular can supersede the bindings from the Constitution of India.

 

[anilsinghd]

Tab panchayat ne khilafat ki thi ki nahin? Ab rolla karne se kya faayda hoga- ab to shaadi ho gayi.

Well Kapil , I do not blame Panchayats a lot for this , i am only of the opinion that they must be progressive going forward and do better.

basically all of this is a falluout of a general phenomenon of CYA( you will know the term ). We all follow the same policy , quick fixes are the order of time , reactionary approaches are rampant , no body is looking for the longer term , there ain't any vision and planning and when there is not any , conflicts are bound to occur !

 

[dskadyan]

hmm discussion is taking different turn now. we are proving ourselves.

 

[dskadyan]

More things in this case hearing.

The khap system has been one of the most oppressive instruments. Had they have larger merit then why other civil and violent disputes not being taken up.
I doubt the lack of civil society concerns in the khap norms have been questioned by any khap members. No system how so ever ancient and particular can supersede the bindings from the Constitution of India.

Dear Sir,
Who says panchayats can’t solve the civil and violent disputes. But all the verdicts are based on Social Respect. Would you respect a verdict given by judge if there is no Police Force there? I doubt.

And all says that khap panchayat kills, part husband and wife and many other ruthless verdict.


Adalat(court) mein laddoo/jalebi milti hai kya? Whan criminals ko salute dete hai 25 rifles ki? Ya sab bakwas hai. Court mein jakar kon sa case 1 mahine mein sulat gaya hai? batao.
And what about constitution here?
can you interpret that 5 Kg book to me. If there is all written well and thorough why so many of state issue, water issue and insolvency of these things!!
Bhai Constitution ko side mein hi rahne do toh theek hai. Thats true oppressive book if you say the panchyats oppressive. But in actually book is right but executioner are using to make us believe they have power and only they can do the real work of social harmony. do you know Raj Dand? That was a stick ,Raja used to show to people and all people believe that the person having that have super natural power to rule them.Ajj mein raj dand dikaha ke raja ban sakta hu kya? Log usi dande se lamba kar denge maine.

Ab woh Raj dand ki jagah Constitution hai. The CM/PM and all XXXcrats use this as Raj dand. Constitution, State, Government all are institute for exploitation, panchayats are not. Think it for 5 minutes. Then you will realize the fact.
These systems are made to rule by few very few clever and powerful one to rule on all other.

 

[spdeshwal]

इस तरह की कलह की पीछे बहुत हद तक हमारी सामजिक कुरीतियाँ भी हैं
एक बहुत बड़ा कारण, पर्दा सिस्टम भी है !
किसी ग्रामीण परिवेश में, पर्दे में सभी बहुएँ हैं, परदे के बिना सब बहने हैं

मेरी जानकारी के मताबिक कुछ महिलायें, शादी के बाद अपने पैत्रिक गाँव में अपने पति के साथ रहने लगी और उस पर कभी कोई विवाद नहीं हुआ ! एकाध केस में हकीकी लोग नाराज जरूर हुए लेकिन कुछ समय के लिए !

मेरा एक सुझाव है , क्यों ने उस कादियान लड़की को निर्देश दे दिया जाये की वो ढराना गाँव में पर्दा न करे !
मेरा द्रिड विश्वाश है की इस विवाह के प्रति पूरे गाँव का नजरिया ही बदल जाएगा ! म्रेरे विचार से इस सारी समस्या को सुलझाने के लिए हमारे माननीय पंचों को थोड़ा लचीला व् व्यवहारिक नजरिया अपनाना बहुत जरूरी है !

सभी के विचारों का सम्मान करें और खुश रहें !

 

[lrburdak]

Deswalji

It is a good suggestion. We have to have some flexibility on both sides looking to the present conditions keeping traditions alive. There is no fault with the traditional khap panchayat system. I will request to read more about the khaps , sarvakhaps and sarv khap panchayats on Jatland Wiki.

http://www.jatland.com/home/Khap

Regards,

 

[ambijat]

Dear Sir,
Who says panchayats can’t solve the civil and violent disputes. But all the verdicts are based on Social Respect. Would you respect a verdict given by judge if there is no Police Force there? I doubt.

And all says that khap panchayat kills, part husband and wife and many other ruthless verdict.


Adalat(court) mein laddoo/jalebi milti hai kya? Whan criminals ko salute dete hai 25 rifles ki? Ya sab bakwas hai. Court mein jakar kon sa case 1 mahine mein sulat gaya hai? batao.
And what about constitution here?
can you interpret that 5 Kg book to me. If there is all written well and thorough why so many of state issue, water issue and insolvency of these things!!
Bhai Constitution ko side mein hi rahne do toh theek hai. Thats true oppressive book if you say the panchyats oppressive. But in actually book is right but executioner are using to make us believe they have power and only they can do the real work of social harmony. do you know Raj Dand? That was a stick ,Raja used to show to people and all people believe that the person having that have super natural power to rule them.Ajj mein raj dand dikaha ke raja ban sakta hu kya? Log usi dande se lamba kar denge maine.

Ab woh Raj dand ki jagah Constitution hai. The CM/PM and all XXXcrats use this as Raj dand. Constitution, State, Government all are institute for exploitation, panchayats are not. Think it for 5 minutes. Then you will realize the fact.
These systems are made to rule by few very few clever and powerful one to rule on all other.

अब चूँकि बात के मायने अनेक रूप में प्रस्तुत किये जा रहे हैं, इसलिए संक्षेप में कुछ विचार रखना चाहूँगा पहला तो ये कि अच्छा होता यदि यहाँ अभिप्राय लोक निर्वाचित पंचायत से होता, क्योंकि जिन खूबियों के लिए पंचायत की हिमायत की जा रही है, वे खाँप पंचायतों से कुछ अधिक की अपेक्षा है । एक शब्द Social Respect बङा ही महत्वपूर्ण है । यह Social Respect क्या है, इसके क्या स्वरूप हैं । यही सब पंचायत की सबसे बङी व्याख्या है । किस प्रकार से खाँप से नेतृत्व का चुनाव किया जाता है कि अमुक व्यक्ति का Social Respect औरों की तुलना में अधिक है । जाहिर है, संसाधनों की बहुत बङी भूमिका इन सबमें होती है । इसलिए जिसे Social Respect समझा जा रहा है, वह दरअसल Social Stratification है । सवाल यह है कि क्यों एक नौजवान उस व्यवस्था का हिमायती हो जाता है जो कि उसके संसाधन व हैसियत आदि के बूते से बाहर है । यह एक आधुनिकतावाद का चरम प्रश्न है । दौङ में पिछङने पर होने वाला Identity crisis व उससे पनपने वाला Social alienation आज का नौजवान झेलने से डरता है, इसिलिए इस Forum पर मैं देख रहा हूँ कि एक प्रकार का नव संकीर्णतावाद (neo conservatism) देखने को मिल रहा है । मेरा भय सिर्फ इतना ही है चूँकि जाट यूवा भारत स्तर पर जो सामाजिक परिवर्तन को अनदेखा कर रहे हैं । एक वर्ग विशेष ऐसे ही अवसर की तलाश कर रहा है जो कि Identity politics में उनका प्रयोग कर सकता है ।
कादियाँ जी जब Constitution की धज्जियाँ उङाते हैं तो मुझे इसी खतरे का आभास होता है ।
धन्यवाद ।

 

[ambijat]

deswalji

it is a good suggestion. We have to have some flexibility on both sides looking to the present conditions keeping traditions alive. There is no fault with the traditional khap panchayat system. I will request to read more about the khaps , sarvakhaps and sarv khap panchayats on jatland wiki.

http://www.jatland.com/home/khap

regards,

लक्षमण जी एक जानकारी चाहूँगा, कि क्या कारण है कि खापों का विकास पश्चिमी राजस्थान में नहीं हो पाया । नागौर, सीकर, अजमेर, टोंक, बाङमेर, जोधपुर व जयपुर में खाँप व्यवस्था नहीं पाई जाती है । दूसरा यह कि आगरा व आसपास के इलाकों सभी जाट गोत्र इस खाँप व्यवस्था से नहीं जुङे हुए हैं । यह कुछ महत्वपूर्ण प्रश्न हैं, जो कि खाँप व्यवस्था को समझने में मदद देंगे ।
धन्यवाद ।