Cool down guys
Bhai tam donnu thodi sans le lo, ek -ek glass shheet ka bhee pee lo....
Bhai tam donnu thodi sans le lo, ek -ek glass shheet ka bhee pee lo....
Major, Commando die battling ultras
- Thread starter captkalkal
- Start date
A
anilsinghd
Guest
[/QUOTE]
Just felt like trying a few numbers. Might not be very accurate or an exact comparison , but at least should help us deduce some themes.
India
year crimes population ratio
1953 601,964 357,561,000 0.17
2006 1,878,293 1,103,371,000 0.17
usa
year crimes population ratio
1960 3384200 179323175 1.9
2006 11149927 304059724 3.7
Looks to me that US is leading India on both an absolute scale ( % of crimes as population ) and also on a growth side , while US rae tripled in the time , India rate stayed stable.
Am i missing something?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_India
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
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Kapil
There is nothing personal in debate, intellect should never be prisoner of emotions.
Let me put in my 2 paise about Mushy and Saddam.
First Saddam
For all his fault, he kept Iraq as a unified country, kept Iranian influence at bay hence protecting Sunni Muslims. Saudi's were terrified of him, kuwaitis were sleeping with one eye open. During his reign, Iraqi identity was established, where iraqi shia's and sunnis started mingling. Exploitation of women was unheard of in Iraq, afterwards, young iraqi girls who were orphaned were sold into prostituition in Dubai.
As far Mushy is concerned, this man kept pakistan together, fooled the mighty Americans, was mastermind of kargil, eliminated any threat to state from baloch uprising. Kept everyone in good humor while milking billions of dollars all the while strengthen his military arms and ammunition. So what if there were few casualties in that process. There is always casualties.
What did British do while they enslaved India, read up on Bengal Famine. They are single handidly responsible for deaths of 20-30 Million Indians. Nobody calls them murderer, but pushed under rug as a forgotten chapter of history.
The biggest propoganda about Stalin is spread by western countries to make themself feel morally superior. It was Stalins ruthless focus on the safety and security of his country that led to the demise of Nazi Germany. Heck Americans were sitting pretty in their homes while Russians were getting slaughtered. So what if Stalin sent captured Nazis, Criminals, traitors to gulag. It made russia the force to reckon with.
kapil you said,
When you want to talk about threat internal and external, just focus on them.
What does getting gas connection, telephone line has to do with National Security, and that was the case in 80's we were all in same boat. There was more power available to people than now.
Whatever it is worth please don't quote wikipedia, it is as good as snake oil salesman. If you want to have discussion send me email or pm. No need to bore other people to death.
There is nothing personal in debate, intellect should never be prisoner of emotions.
Let me put in my 2 paise about Mushy and Saddam.
First Saddam
For all his fault, he kept Iraq as a unified country, kept Iranian influence at bay hence protecting Sunni Muslims. Saudi's were terrified of him, kuwaitis were sleeping with one eye open. During his reign, Iraqi identity was established, where iraqi shia's and sunnis started mingling. Exploitation of women was unheard of in Iraq, afterwards, young iraqi girls who were orphaned were sold into prostituition in Dubai.
As far Mushy is concerned, this man kept pakistan together, fooled the mighty Americans, was mastermind of kargil, eliminated any threat to state from baloch uprising. Kept everyone in good humor while milking billions of dollars all the while strengthen his military arms and ammunition. So what if there were few casualties in that process. There is always casualties.
What did British do while they enslaved India, read up on Bengal Famine. They are single handidly responsible for deaths of 20-30 Million Indians. Nobody calls them murderer, but pushed under rug as a forgotten chapter of history.
The biggest propoganda about Stalin is spread by western countries to make themself feel morally superior. It was Stalins ruthless focus on the safety and security of his country that led to the demise of Nazi Germany. Heck Americans were sitting pretty in their homes while Russians were getting slaughtered. So what if Stalin sent captured Nazis, Criminals, traitors to gulag. It made russia the force to reckon with.
kapil you said,
Deterrence means ability to destroy in retaliation. The difference between fission and fusion is akin to being bitten by 'ankle biter'(Mem sahib ke goudi ka kutta) compared to mauled by pitbull. When you are talking about delivery system, with the exception of Brahmos, Mirage and Sukhoi 30 other delivery system are questionable at best. For every C Raja Mohan there is Susheel Mehta. He is entitled to his opinion when rubber meets the road only fact survive other peaceniks and apologists are nowhere to be found.
If you remember your history, Bose actually defeated Gandhi in Congress election, he was actually believer in Gandhi Principles but later got disillusioned by him. Gandhi was a great social leader who made impact at grass root level, Bose was a strategist, a far sighted man who knew what was coming on the horizon. He knew that defeat of Axis power was definite, that's why he formed INA so that it will be seen as armed struggle to free India from the clutches of slavery.
In 1980's Yamuna was a river today it is a sewer and I rest my case on your comment about regression.
It is people like you who said after 26/11 that 'we should not blame pakistan unless there is a proof'. General Population of India is emotional they react, have no faith in their own intel agencies (yes they are not perfect but they are far better than Netas). Even if it is proved beyond the shadow of doubt it was pakistanis who were involved in this massacare, there was one "Bharat ki Nari' at Narita Airport who said, she will never believe anything Indian police or gov't say, she would believe the pakistanis. Mind it that was right when even pakistanis had accepted Kasab as their own. Indian gov't prepared a 10,000 page indictment to charge kasab they even indicted him for present at railway station without ticket.
When you want to talk about threat internal and external, just focus on them.
What does getting gas connection, telephone line has to do with National Security, and that was the case in 80's we were all in same boat. There was more power available to people than now.
Whatever it is worth please don't quote wikipedia, it is as good as snake oil salesman. If you want to have discussion send me email or pm. No need to bore other people to death.
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Just felt like trying a few numbers. Might not be very accurate or an exact comparison , but at least should help us deduce some themes.
India
year crimes population ratio
1953 601,964 357,561,000 0.17
2006 1,878,293 1,103,371,000 0.17
usa
year crimes population ratio
1960 3384200 179323175 1.9
2006 11149927 304059724 3.7
Looks to me that US is leading India on both an absolute scale ( % of crimes as population ) and also on a growth side , while US rae tripled in the time , India rate stayed stable.
Am i missing something?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_India
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm[/QUOTE]
Can you please clean up the numbers and stats in much more readable format.
Secondly, it is very easy to deduce anything about US since everything must be recorded by law in US. Judging by your profile you live in Germany, as per conventional wisdom, it is one of the safest countries in the world. Here is another side of that fact, Germans will never release their true crime rate satistic. Ever heard of full on fight between Germans and Turkish. These are the fights that are made of legends. How many times police have written a report on plain sheet of paper instead of official FIR. Those plain sheet of paper are not counted in crime satistic because they are not official.
India
year crimes population ratio
1953 601,964 357,561,000 0.17
2006 1,878,293 1,103,371,000 0.17
usa
year crimes population ratio
1960 3384200 179323175 1.9
2006 11149927 304059724 3.7
Looks to me that US is leading India on both an absolute scale ( % of crimes as population ) and also on a growth side , while US rae tripled in the time , India rate stayed stable.
Am i missing something?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_India
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm[/QUOTE]
Can you please clean up the numbers and stats in much more readable format.
Secondly, it is very easy to deduce anything about US since everything must be recorded by law in US. Judging by your profile you live in Germany, as per conventional wisdom, it is one of the safest countries in the world. Here is another side of that fact, Germans will never release their true crime rate satistic. Ever heard of full on fight between Germans and Turkish. These are the fights that are made of legends. How many times police have written a report on plain sheet of paper instead of official FIR. Those plain sheet of paper are not counted in crime satistic because they are not official.
A
anilsinghd
Guest
I tried to format it a couple of times but could not.
Let me put it in words:
Indian Context:The number of crimes per person was 0.17 % in 1953 and it remained roughly the same in 2006.
USA Context: The number of crimes per person was 1.9 % in 1960 and it jumped to 3.7 in 2006.
I already said that it might not be a perfect statistic but I only wnted to decude certain themes out of it.
Anyways , what I was trying to put forward was the argument that one has to take into accounts factors like :
- Increased population.
- More media coverage and attention.
- More surfacing of issues and crimes.
from childhood that we used to sleep in the streets as well in summers , moving around any time during night was not an issue, one can easily forget to lock their bikes/cycles/scooters etc and still bet his money on finding them at the same place.
Certainly not the case these days.
We double check all the doors ( got built a few solid ones as well!) before going to sleep , I get lectured on days on which I come later than 11 pm and my mother makes it a point to wear minimum of jewellery while going out ( though that change cam after a lot of resistance). If you going out and see 3-4 people together , you tend to get scared and for right reasons at times!Scary , is not it ?
Still I will side by Kapil that there is no threat to India on a top level and I am not being unrealistic about things. Also I am not making the mistake of not apprrecaiting things and events and environment around me. Before anyone shoots , let me answer the question of me returning to India in the affirmative and within a time frame of a couple of years.
I am not hoping that things will be stable or improve rather I come to that conclusion by ration arguments , We are a developing country , more than that we are a developing society. There is a paradigm shift and any "change" is painful. The pain during the change does not call for brakes on the process of change but call for more sustained efforts to channelise the change process in the right and forward direction. As i put in points above , the situation in India should be judged on the basis of increased population ( simply scale the numbers of 1980's (since Karan took that year to mention how strong India was , though I frankly believe that we are better today and improving still!)). Add to that the factor multiplier which discounts for the fact that there is bound to be more chaos in a bigger system.
My next two points on media coverage and surfacing of crimes are equally important. Jokes flying around in e-mail forwards on Man v Woman are more of a reality today , No one can deny that women are more empowered today and very few men can escape even after commiting wrong things to their ladies. The bad practises in the society and our culture are surfacing and coming in focus and attention and that is "The" right way to go! No point in keeping them to background! So factor the today's crime rate or scary environment for the fact that the "in-house" crimes are not in-house any more! Everything official about them.
Including these factors I am confident that we will break-even at least.
Another point that is worth mentioning is that effects generally lag the cause by some margin , so what we are seeing today is not an effect of the choices and decisions we made yesterday but of things that we did years back.
The point I am trying to put forward is that the paradigm shift is causing challenges and some serious ones. It is very important that each one of us contributes to the nation building in whatever capacity one can than making wild guesses based on the impulses that are temporary in nature. I would rather go with Kapil and say that we will reach a steady state in due course and things would improve, law of averages will assert itself and once we are far enough in the process of change, we will see this for real.
A
anilsinghd
Guest
A humble request to both of you ; either keep posting here OR copy me on the email/pm ; anilsinghd1@gmail.com.
Thank you,
Anil
A
anilsinghd
Guest
The reason I request you to continue here is that there is a lot to learn and understand ( at least I do that).
I am guessing this thread has turned into more of a India ( Growth and Development) topic , sorry about that ; but I did some more homework.
I read up a basic theory on Development ( it is the same one I read in one of my degree courses as well), Rostow's model :
This is a theory of linear development ,
Stage 1 : Traditional Society
Stage 2 : Transitional Stage
Stage 3 : Take Off
Stage 4 : Drive to Maturity
Stage 5 : High Mass Consumption.
Very basics of this model can be read at :
http://tutor2u.net/economics/content/topics/development/development_models_rostow.htm
I think India is somewhere in stage 3 but is not getting enough politial will to make it complete Stage 3. More liberalisation , more infrastructure development , mor competition and open institutions and structures and processes needs to be done by Government of India. Savings and investment are central to growth , I read up something on Savings and seems like we are doing well in the last decade on that front. We are close to 30 % in savings rate and that is good enough for Stage 3.
Here is an extract from:
http://www.jcer.or.jp/eng/pdf/kenho061201e.pdf
The recent statistics show encouraging signs in that the country’s
saving rate has been on the rise in tandem with the acceleration of economic growth from 26.3% in Fiscal 2002 to 26.5% in 2003 and to 29.1% in 2004. In terms of demographic structure, while China is about to face the aging of the society, India expects its workforce
ratio to rise up to 2040, which should help increase the saving rate of the country over the long term.
The Sensex has bounced back pretty quickly and we are back on the upsurge even when Europe and US are suffering from the Financial Mess. Greenspan was audacious to the extent that he said the downturn did not even come in India and China , India and its people are recognised all over the world , MNCs are flourishing in India and everyone that does not have an office in India have that plan in their vision book for sure. The dreaded brain drain is on a reverse journey, I am not hopeful but confident we are on a path to a better India and a stronger India than ever before. To make it complete , I reiterate , change is painful but that pain has to be endured and sacrifices made to make the future better. We all do those sacrifices at the individual level to have a better old age life ( life insurance , investments , retirement policies , pension funds etc) and a better future for our children ; We need to do a bit of the same collectively for our nation. Invest in the nation building process.
saving rate has been on the rise in tandem with the acceleration of economic growth from 26.3% in Fiscal 2002 to 26.5% in 2003 and to 29.1% in 2004. In terms of demographic structure, while China is about to face the aging of the society, India expects its workforce
ratio to rise up to 2040, which should help increase the saving rate of the country over the long term.
The Sensex has bounced back pretty quickly and we are back on the upsurge even when Europe and US are suffering from the Financial Mess. Greenspan was audacious to the extent that he said the downturn did not even come in India and China , India and its people are recognised all over the world , MNCs are flourishing in India and everyone that does not have an office in India have that plan in their vision book for sure. The dreaded brain drain is on a reverse journey, I am not hopeful but confident we are on a path to a better India and a stronger India than ever before. To make it complete , I reiterate , change is painful but that pain has to be endured and sacrifices made to make the future better. We all do those sacrifices at the individual level to have a better old age life ( life insurance , investments , retirement policies , pension funds etc) and a better future for our children ; We need to do a bit of the same collectively for our nation. Invest in the nation building process.
ravinderjeet
New member
sansad ke hamlaawaaron ko aaj tek phaansi ni de saki wo sarkaar er wo netaa saheedon key barey mein kabhee soch bhi nahi saktey.mumbai hamlon kaa aatenkwaadi eb tek halwaa puri aur murg masaala khaa rahaa hey.aur keh rahaa hey ki mujhey indian judges per bhrosaa nahi.sayaad bhaarat sarkaar eb pakistani judge bulwaayegi yaa Lahor mein mukdmaa chalwaayegi.aapko logono ko pataa nahi hogaa sayaad ki jeb vijay salaskar aur unkaa sr.police comm.maraey gaye to oopmukhayaamantri mr bhujbal unkey saheed honey per hans rahaa thaa aur kahrahaa thaa ki"ye saaley vahaan kyaa ker rahey they."
mumbai hamlon,sansad hamlon aur kaargil ki kahaani to kuchh aur hey.media aur sarkaar jantaa ko kuchh aur bataatey hein.
sansad hamlon ke saheedon key gherwaalon ko aaj tek naa to puri aarthik sahaytaa mili hey aur naa hi noukri.
EK KRAANTI KI AAWESEYKTAA HEY.
mumbai hamlon,sansad hamlon aur kaargil ki kahaani to kuchh aur hey.media aur sarkaar jantaa ko kuchh aur bataatey hein.
sansad hamlon ke saheedon key gherwaalon ko aaj tek naa to puri aarthik sahaytaa mili hey aur naa hi noukri.
EK KRAANTI KI AAWESEYKTAA HEY.
Ravinder Balhara
I have to agree with you sentiment. Where was Thackrey chacha and bhatija team when Pakis were wreaking havoc on our nation. What happened to that proverbial "Marathi Manoos". I will tell you what happened, they ran off with their dhoti in tow. It was our boys who took the brunt and saved the day--again.
I hope you understand my utter disgust, anger with leadership of this country. Some of the idiots deserve Stalin style justice.
Anil Dalal
I digress, I think we are still at transitional stage. We as a nation had been enslaved for so long we are now slowly getting our self esteem, pride, belief back. We are still largely an agrarian country very much depended upon monsoon rain for food security. We are still learning on how to find balance between agrarian to manufacturing society. However, it seems we are doing that in parallelism instead of sequentially. The second part is a key to Indian Success and that is, our savings rate must stay above 25%. I agree that return on that saving to individual may not be highest but it sure protects the nation and individual from catastrophe like the meltdown of America, Europe. We have been traditionally a frugal society that has evolved into "Living within their Means" guess what this ingrained value has saved us from complete meltdown and chaos. Our age old belief in value of gold has some merit to it. Amount of gold Indians own, stored and stashed in their homes is part of national economy. In times of crisis that gold can make a difference between writing IOU's like america or paying cash like India for essential commodities.
I have to agree with you sentiment. Where was Thackrey chacha and bhatija team when Pakis were wreaking havoc on our nation. What happened to that proverbial "Marathi Manoos". I will tell you what happened, they ran off with their dhoti in tow. It was our boys who took the brunt and saved the day--again.
I hope you understand my utter disgust, anger with leadership of this country. Some of the idiots deserve Stalin style justice.
Anil Dalal
I digress, I think we are still at transitional stage. We as a nation had been enslaved for so long we are now slowly getting our self esteem, pride, belief back. We are still largely an agrarian country very much depended upon monsoon rain for food security. We are still learning on how to find balance between agrarian to manufacturing society. However, it seems we are doing that in parallelism instead of sequentially. The second part is a key to Indian Success and that is, our savings rate must stay above 25%. I agree that return on that saving to individual may not be highest but it sure protects the nation and individual from catastrophe like the meltdown of America, Europe. We have been traditionally a frugal society that has evolved into "Living within their Means" guess what this ingrained value has saved us from complete meltdown and chaos. Our age old belief in value of gold has some merit to it. Amount of gold Indians own, stored and stashed in their homes is part of national economy. In times of crisis that gold can make a difference between writing IOU's like america or paying cash like India for essential commodities.