My Disappointment - Election Related Debate on Jatland

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birbal

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I feel greatly disappointed by the level of discussion on various posts on this website relating to the election campaign and its outcome.

I read posts from well educated people that show total lack of fairness, decency, logic, and factual knowledge. One graduate student (a scholar by definition I assume) has concluded that Italians are scum (and as I wrote almost a year ago that those who portray other groups in a demeaning manner will face the consequence of their utterings in the future because the written record never goes away), several others have created their own definition of "Indian" (although we have a constitution and legal system), some have no hesitation in declaring others as idiots without providing any facts or logic to support their arguments.

If one looks carefully at the outcome of the election it is evident that the BJP and its allies got almost the same percentage of the votes as the previous election but the vastly different outcome is only due to our electoral system. BJP ruled the country with about 23% of the votes and this time they got about the same percentage of votes but the opposition was not as much divided as in the previous election. I will not be surprised if the Congress party is defeated in the next election but that is not the point of my post here.

I also have very strong opinions and I have been extremely active in politics all my life. But I am willing to provide logical arguments to support my position and willing to change my mind if someone has more convincing logic.

While growing up in Rajasthan I heard the equivalent words for scum and idiot used by RSS people against Jats and especially against the two Jat leaders in our area who fought hard to uplift the Jat community, Chaudhary Kumbharam Arya and Sardar Harlal Singh. I lived in the Jat Boarding in Jhunjhunu from 1955 to 1958 and because I always came first in class and I was strong in General Knowledge ( I could name all the MPs in the parliament with their affiliation) I got to talk with Sardar Harlal Singh occassionally when he stayed at the boarding. He never cared much about the opinions of these narrowminded people as he had a mission to help the community and that he did. ( I should mention that his nephew, Sanwat Singh, one of the brightest Jat young man was stabbed to death by Atal Behari Vajpayee's best friend Virendra Kumar Saklecha, who became Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh).

As far as Sonia Gandhi is concerned, the only thing I can say that she proved her mettle by taking over the party at the bottom point and reviving it. She inherited nothing. The party was on the verge of collapse. Also, for 5 generations, from Priyanka Gandhi to Motilal Nehru. none of the individuals have done anything to harm the good name of the family. But, unfortunately, I see grandsons of a great man harming his name in Haryana.

When I look back at all the people who became Prime Minister of India I can say that with two exceptions we had people of integrity and character as Prime Ministers. The two exceptions are Morarji Desai and Atal Behari Vajpayee. I am sure whoever becomes the next prime Minister will be lot better than the current one.

I would like to challenge all Jats who have decided to support an anti-Jat party, BJP, for their self interest to provide me with some logic about the virtues of RSS, VHP, Hindutva etc. I also suggest them to read about E.V. Ramaswamy Naicker, better known as the Periyar, who freed the people of Tamilnadu from the yoke of the corrupt Hindu religion represented by the likes of RSS.

Birbal Singh
 
Dear Birbal Singh Ji

Ram Ram

you write: "When I look back at all the people who became Prime Minister of India I can say that with two exceptions we had people of integrity and character as Prime Ministers. The two exceptions are Morarji Desai and Atal Behari Vajpayee. I am sure whoever becomes the next prime Minister will be lot better than the current one."

... I could not disagree with you more! Atal Behari Vajpayee is by far and away the best Prime Minister India has ever had. The facts and figures show this. For the first time, many Indians - especially those of us abroad - can turn around and say "ab tujhe pata hoga ke hindustan ki aukad kya hai?". The fact that one key topic (IT & outsourcing) in this years US presidential election is being debated heatedly reflects at the progress India has made in the last five years.

Since Vajpayee Ji came to power, I can list far more positive things than negative things. Straight away he took India's nuclear programme to another level. Under his stint, is India's economy growing the 3rd fastest in the world. Under his stint, has India become the 2nd largest IT supply market. Under his stint, have Indo-Pak relations been the warmest they've ever been.

And you say other PM's are better? Or better integrity? THAT IS NOTHING SHORT OF A JOKE! Could you please list all the great things of Lal Bahadur Shastri? Or Chandrashekar for that matter? VP Singh even? Rajiv Gandhi? I CHALLENGE ANYONE - to write the virtues of these bums down, and see if you can stretch it to longer than one paragraph (Combined!!) !!

And every other Prime Minister had integrity? Maaf karna uncle ji, but that is crazy?! Indira Gandhi by far and away was the worst PM we've ever had in that department. Nothing short of dictatorship (70's emergency and 84).
The Congress party has the UTTER CHEEK to call the BJP communal yet this is the party that played holi with sikh blood in 1984. All this under "Indira Mata". Please pass me the sick bucket!

Yes, I am a proud Jat. But I am also a proud Hindustani. I dont buy this pseudo-secular hogwash that we should be forever indebted to the "great" Gandhi khandan. Much of the things you talk about were in 1955 and 1958 etc. Uncle Ji, I was not even born then! If we want to jump back into time 50 years, then I am quite sure we can find a million and one shortcomings with the Jat community.
So please lets not get stuck in a time warp.

JAT KOM ZINDABAD!
HINDUSTAN ZINDABAD!
 
>>>>>>>>... I could not disagree with you more! Atal Behari Vajpayee is by far and away the best Prime Minister India has ever had. The facts and figures show this. For the first time, many Indians - especially those of us abroad - can turn around and say "ab tujhe pata hoga ke hindustan ki aukad kya hai?". The fact that one key topic (IT & outsourcing) in this years US presidential election is being debated heatedly reflects at the progress India has made in the last five years.

##
I also respect Atalji, but boom in IT is not because of him. It was started much much earlier than that. Andhra and Karnatka are major contributors in this (Both Non BJP state). I wont go into details as everyone knows abt the facts behind IT.



>>>>> Since Vajpayee Ji came to power, I can list far more positive things than negative things. Straight away he took India's nuclear programme to another level. Under his stint, is India's economy growing the 3rd fastest in the world. Under his stint, has India become the 2nd largest IT supply market. Under his stint, have Indo-Pak relations been the warmest they've ever been.

##
Yes they did a good job but they did some bad jobs too. See what they had done to Tarun Tejpal's company Tehelka. Tehelka just unearthed a scam going on in defence purchases. Instead of praising them, they just destroyed them and their sponsors. Owner of 1st global was killed eventually.

>>>>And you say other PM's are better? Or better integrity? THAT IS NOTHING SHORT OF A JOKE! Could you please list all the great things of Lal Bahadur Shastri? Or Chandrashekar for that matter? VP Singh even? Rajiv Gandhi? I CHALLENGE ANYONE - to write the virtues of these bums down, and see if you can stretch it to longer than one paragraph (Combined!!) !!


##
Lal bahadur was a very very good man. Ask some elders in villages and they will tell you about him.

>>>>Much of the things you talk about were in 1955 and 1958 etc. Uncle Ji, I was not even born then! If we want to jump back into time 50 years, then I am quite sure we can find a million and one shortcomings with the Jat community.
So please lets not get stuck in a time warp.

##
I don't think so. ppl at that time were more honest and with integrity then today. They were not materialistic and greedy as ppl are now a days. Today even those jats who are abroad and plenty of money and a jat who is sipahi in police are not ashamed in asking for dowry. This was not the trend 30 years back.
 
A little correction here, BJP is in power in Rajasthan because jats voted for it . Story was pretty same in Loksabha elections too. So are we going to say all those jats who voted for BJP are anti-jats or are not smart enough?
And I find it utterly disgusting to tell someone that a country of 1 billion with 10,000 years old civilization has an italian widow of former prime minister who happened to be son of a former prime minister who again was daughter of first prime minister of India as prime minister of India just because the vote was not in favor of her party but against ruling coalition.
It makes me even sadder to find out that it is happening in my nation.
And saddest was the inference that could be drawn out from post starting this thread that anyone ruing the fact that a foreigner is prime minister is a lesser jat or has inferior faculties?
 
Abhishek,

Only a small fraction of Jats voted for BJP in Rajasthan. But as you know in our electoral system that is enough to tilt the result.

Let me tell you that during the preindependence period a small fraction of Jats colluded with the feudals to oppress 99% of Jats. One of those Jat families is the Maharia family of the MP who is now MP from Sikar. Most of the Jats voted for Narayan Singh and Amra Ram but unfortunately, that split with the help of non-Jat BJP votes led to Maharia's victory. The same story is repeated in all constituencies where BJP won.

The only thing I can say that the man who did the greatest harm to the jats in Rajasthan ( Bhairon Singh Sekhawat) is extremely smart politician. The Rajasthan govt is totally under his control through his son-in-law, Nripat Singh Rizvi, and he has played cunning politics, and you can say it is our own fault to some extent and I would agree with it.

But, my point is that BJP is extremely anti-jat and they have used some traitors like the British used in India. If the Jats do not wake up they will lose all the gains they made since independence soon. Some of the younger people need to know recent history otherwise there fate will not be much better
 
Dear Ramandeep,

Let me answer some of your questions. I am sure if not a book, I can certainly write a thesis on the contributions of every Prime minister.....I do not say that each one of them did not have their short comings as well..

1. For your information the first atomic explosion took place in 1974 when Indra Gandhi was the PM.

2. The slogan of taking India into 21st centuray was given by Rajiv Gandhi and it was he who commissioned persons like Syam Pitroda for the telecommnication we have today. It was he who spoke of computers and it is he who initiated the modern IT boom in India. Name me one IT company in India which has pre Rajiv Gandhi history...
3. Lal Bahadur Shastri was the person who put India on self sufficieny in food production. It was he who realised the importance of farmer.
4. All your Steel plants and BHEL, BEL and BARC etc were started by Nehru.. Can you tell me how many countries who got their freedom with India can boast of Steal mills and Atomic reasearch Institutions ?? Do you think Atal Vihari gave all this???? Only best thing Atal Vihari initiated is the widening of highways...

5. Ch Charan Singh, VP Singh at their likes were for too short a period and its no use talking about them here.

6. It was PV Narshimha Rao who started the liberalisation with Mohan Singh as his PM and present BJP only carried forward ..

7. Maximum damage done to Indian fabric in recent memory is by LK Advani and VP Singh who started caste based and religion based politics..How can one agree that Atal remaining PM with the support of Advani and likes is any different than them..??

8. Memory is very short and people forget the contribution of leaders too soon. It was Mrs Gandhi who stood like rock when US was with its 7th fleet in Bay of Bengal and Indian army was busy liberating Bangla Desh. She had the guts to rbuff Nixon and Regan..when it came to Indian interest.

I can write volumes on the contributions of these people but let us accept the time and space does not permit here.

Rajendra
 
"The verdict may not be to everyone's satisfaction, but that's the way things stack up in a democracy. In the past the people have voted in alleged murderers, the corrupt, alleged rapists etc and we have accepted the verdict; in the face of the public mandate for her, should the mere fact of birth be held against her?"

Top 3 reasons for BJPs loss (as i see it):
1) In a country of 1 billion with 10,000 years old civilization, BJP could not find a "healthy" PM.
2) The way it handled "bad stuff" was no better than congress or any other party. It failed to distinguish.
3) BJP's undignified campaign against a woman.
 
To Kalkhunde Ji and Vijay Latiyan,

Please read my posts carefully.
I did not say things like "IT boom was started by Vajpayee", neither did I say "India's nuclear programme was started by Vajpayee".

I said that:
"he took India's nuclear programme to another level"
&
"Under his stint, is India's economy growing the 3rd fastest in the world. Under his stint, has India become the 2nd largest IT supply market".

I'm not denying Naidu or former PM's laid the foundation stones, but ultimately the skyscraper was built under Vajpayee.

And also to Kalkhunde Ji, OK - yes you have listed some valid points about other PM's. But I was responding to the very 1st post of this thread saying the Atal Bihari Vajpayee was a man of no integrity and was one of our worst PM's. I find that statement nothing short of ridiculous.
 
Abhishek Dhama (May 14, 2004 12:43 p.m.):
A little correction here, BJP is in power in Rajasthan because jats voted for it . Story was pretty same in Loksabha elections too. So are we going to say all those jats who voted for BJP are anti-jats or are not smart enough?
And I find it utterly disgusting to tell someone that a country of 1 billion with 10,000 years old civilization has an italian widow of former prime minister who happened to be son of a former prime minister who again was daughter of first prime minister of India as prime minister of India just because the vote was not in favor of her party but against ruling coalition.
It makes me even sadder to find out that it is happening in my nation.
And saddest was the inference that could be drawn out from post starting this thread that anyone ruing the fact that a foreigner is prime minister is a lesser jat or has inferior faculties?

I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Are Jats that vote BJP anti-Jat?! Of course not!
Let us not forget that Haryana was a 10-out-of-10 NDA state before this election. Were those Jats anti-Jat then but have now had a "Jat-shuddi" of sorts?!
 
dear all
if i have understood correctly , the debate here is ....where does interest of jat lies ......is it BJP or congress ........

so i dont see any reason in highlighting the achivement of succesive PM or government .

well ....if we are serious about the interest of jats ,then we have to be serious politician first and in politics no alignment is permanent . whoever gives u better deal u go for it , whole heartidly and complete .

we need some serious leaders here ....not ajit singh , chauala , lals who can not open there mouth in delhi and has hollow mind and thinking with no real agenda other then personal agenda of pulling their own people down .

so instead of blaming BJP and congress , we need to stand united with anybody who give us a better deal and for the time being we should be demanding enough to the BJP IN rajasthan and pressurriseour ur jat mahasbha people to get there act going in identifying the work needs to be done .

even the centre can be asked to something for our people , now that they has got a full mandate from haryana ...

regards
 
I did not start this post to choose between BJP and Congress. My main objective was to educate some younger members about the true nature of BJP/RSS as being Jat hating group. As I said some Jats may support BJP for their short term self interest but it will certainly result in serious long term harm to the broader community.

E.V. Ramaswammy Naicker recognized such danger to his community and founded Dravida Kazaggam (the forerunner of DMK, AIADMK etc.). The word Dravida is misleading here. He was really a Jat equivalent in Tamilnadu and he saw that they were being suppressed by traditional Hindu religion. He woke up his community and literally got rid of the old fashioned religion. The progress to his community has been phenomenal.

Also, one should know that at one time Islam was the religion that encouraged science and scholarly pursuits and up to sisteenth century Muslims were ahead of the rest of the world. The Fundamentalist movement that began long time ago in Islam has brought them back to middle ages and now there situation is truely pathetic.

We should be careful not to allow these Hindu fundamentalists to drag India into the middle ages. Remember all these BJP and Shiv Sena leaders who profess Hindutva send their kids to English schools.
 
dear birbal ji
regards ...
very true , we need some revolution for jats , some kind of selfless leaders and my views from my previous post stands ....

{
we need some serious leaders here ....not ajit singh , chauala , lals who can not open there mouth in delhi and has hollow mind and thinking with no real agenda other then personal agenda of pulling their own people down
}

TRUE we should stay away from hindu fundamentalist , and in any case the hindutava they are promoting is not hindutava but a pandatava , it is nothing but the selfish interpratation of pandits .
hindu is not a religion but a dharma and english has no equivalent of dharma , hindu is a way of life and not a religion it is brahmins who created 34000 gods and hindu dharam as such had no face of god , other then the supreme being .....brahman .

on the second thought , we should not get into the nitty gritty of their(parties) belief and thinking as long as they are doing something for the community , remmember whatever we say we can not progress without them too , one has to take the ground realities ,and actual view on ground .

so with this my view of the previous post are augmented . thanku
 
Folks,

I agree with Dr. Birbal Singh that we have to be careful about calling anyone names. Along these lines, the other thread should simply be removed.

There is nothing wrong in having a political discussion as long as it doesn't reflect badly upon you as an individual and the community as a whole.

Now back to the discussion, I don't think there is anything wrong in a party name. For the most part it depends on the people of the party. A good person can be in found in any party. I think Atal Bihari Vajpayee was a good person overall. The country did make good progress during his tenure. Let us wait and see how the next PM does.

Also, for the most part the election is won based on really good politics and individual character of the person. I think Congress won mostly for the individual people involved and for one single person. In fact, congress won because of BJP's mistakes by associating them with the upper casts, directing the muslim and poor votes towards congress.

I have heard that Ch. Chautala did some good for Jats. Maybe that was one of the reason his party didn't fair so well in the elections. Anti-incumbency factor, strong Jat sentiments associated with Ch. Chautala, division of Jat votes were probably the main factors for such a poor performance.

But then it is politics and everything is fair in politics. Dekhte hain unt kis karwat baithega.

So it is not just doing good work which winds the election, it is good politics that wins the votes. Look at Chanderbabu Naidu.

I am very optimistic on India's future as the world largest democracy. This was democracy at it best. Yes, there is room for improvement and I can see it getting better.

Congratulations to Ch. Bhupinder Hooda, Ch. Sangwan and Ch. Ajit Singh for their wins. I wish good luck to Ch. Chautala and many other Jat (or more appropriately rural) leaders which are to come.

-ajmer
 
dear ajmer ji
regards ..
i dont think chautalas lost becouse of associating with jats and doing well for them . nobody could lose in haryana with full jat support , on the contrary jats hold the key to success in nearly all the consitituancies .

according to my appreciation it is their tyrancy and indifference to common mens izzat and autocratic style of ruling , without much development that scrapped them from the face of haryana .

there is hardly any depth is such leaders thinking , infact they cant be called leaders , they are just oppurtunist , who just fill there coffers and wait for another time , as people have very short lived memories .

the less told about them , better it is in the genral interest of the community , after all something is better then nothing . i dont know when this something has to pave way for good things .lets wait and pray for our people then .
 
Folks,

I would also like to add that India is a real democracy. The PM doesn't have the absolute power as is the case in many other countries. The power is really shared between the President, PM, Ministers and MPs.

It is also evident that doing nothings is not an option for a leader in India as was the case in early days of Independence. In a real democracy, the public may not reward you for good job but it centainly punishes you for your mistakes.

-ajmer
 
Dear Ramesh Ji,

You may be right. While I was in India this during Nov-Dec of last year I got this feeling that Chautala made the most Jat appointments in key positions and people were generally happy.

On the other hand I did notice that hamare gaon main nahar ka pani pichhale ek saal se nahi aya tha, jo nahar har do hafte main aati thi. Standard of education has really gone down in govt and most private schools. Law and order situation has gotten worse and corruption is on the rise.

But then I don't like the idea of free electricity for the farmers or for anyone for that matter.

I guess you can always find some goods and some bads in a politician. We do know that ultimately it is the will of the people who will ultimately decide who survives.

-ajmer

Ramesh Lakra (May 14, 2004 03:51 p.m.):
dear ajmer ji
regards ..
i dont think chautalas lost becouse of associating with jats and doing well for them . nobody could lose in haryana with full jat support , on the contrary jats hold the key to success in nearly all the consitituancies .

according to my appreciation it is their tyrancy and indifference to common mens izzat and autocratic style of ruling , without much development that scrapped them from the face of haryana .

there is hardly any depth is such leaders thinking , infact they cant be called leaders , they are just oppurtunist , who just fill there coffers and wait for another time , as people have very short lived memories .

the less told about them , better it is in the genral interest of the community , after all something is better then nothing . i dont know when this something has to pave way for good things .lets wait and pray for our people then .
 
The only way to stop any party from being "anti-jat" is to join them. Look at Scindias, some are in congress and some in BJP. Koi bhi aye koi farak nahi padta, Scindias are safe.
 
In the last 5 years of NDA, both Naidu and Chautala were part of the NDA Gov't.
Naidu always laid out to the likes of Vajpayee and Advani what he wanted for his people and his state. He might have greased his hands a little along the way, but all-in-all visible development was occuring in Hyderabad and with regards to IT etc.

Chautala - on the other hand ... so far, all we've heard is widening of roads and a few minor things. As long as he was happy drinking and his aulad's eating lots of food, haryana ke jaat baarh mein gaye.

Anil ... (with regard to Scindias) ... good approach! Jews in the west do that a lot.
 
Let me provide a brief look at the history regarding Scindias. In the 3rd battle of Panipat in 1761, Madhoji Scindia, Damaji Gaekwad and Malhar Rao Holkar ran away from the battlefield leaving 25,000 Jats and the Maratha leader Sadashiv Rao Bhau in a siuation where they were clobbered. In 1857 Scindia betrayed the great freedom fighter, Tantia Tope, and in a book by a British woman about Maharajas (written in 1939) described the Dholpur family as the most loyal British supporters. I do not consider such an attribute to be positive.

The Jews do no such thing in the West. In the USA, Jews are overwhelmingly democratic party supporters, and in Canada they are mostly Liberal party supporters.

It may sound a good idea to join a party to change it but what kind of person will join a party that considers his whole community as worse than scum? This was the whole point of my post to begin with as I was not trying to support Congress party at all but letting people know what BJP is.

Let me clarify my political background. I come from an extremely poor Jat family but despite the feudal oppression my poor father was an activist ( he is a freedom fighter pension holder) and though he had no money he had value for education. In 1957, my brother-in-law, Shri Lachhu Ram (as the Kisan Sabha candidate) defeated the Congress candiadate, Thakur Bhim Singh of Mandawa. Later on he was elected for the Lok Dal of Chaudhary Charan Singh in 1977 but died soon after at a young age of 50.

But I can say that the Congress party played a role in uplifting Jats in Rajasthan mainly due to the efforts of Chaudhary Kumbha Ram Arya and Sardar Harlal Singh. I recall in 1957 when Sukhadia was manipulating against Jats by denying tickets, sardar Harlal Singh told Nehru that "Congress apke baap ki zaydad nahin hai" Nehru was stunned, but in the Congress one could speak out. Further I remember in 1962 or so when Sukhadia bribed few Jat traitors to vote against Kumbha Ram Arya for the Pradesh Congress Chief, and he asked those people to make a specific mark on the ballot. Kumbha Ramji was looking slowly at each ballot and Sukhadia asked "Chaudhary Sahib kya dekh rahe ho?" Kumbha Ramji said "tere kaley karnamon ke sabut dekh raha hun". A jat can never have that level of rights in BJP and I know what words they use to describe the whole community. Only a person with total lack of self-respect can join such party. Of course, there is no problem in having temporary alliance with a party but joining it is a different ball game.
 
I strongly concur with Dr. Birbal. I am no history buff, but you don't need to be one to be aware of the intense hatred and despise these RSS/BJP "you name the animal" worshippers have for our community. If you are not aware of it then you must be living in some rather deep hole.

It's hard to know where this comes from. But my guess is that the intensely independent Jat nature has withstood the Brahminical ploys through the centuries. Our community has always denied them any exulted status. They fooled the Rajputs, but couldn't manage the Jats.

On top of that our bravado and "in your face" approach leaves them with deep fear of us. So they tackle it with the way they know best: brain washing, manipulating history, educational, economical and political suppression. They can't handle us directly. So they work in more cunning and devious ways. And full credit to them for doing so remarkably well.

However, as obnoxious as these devils (oh ! I meant to say the "descendants" of rishi munnis) are, they are here and we can't wish them away. They'll continue to play their games and we'll continously need to battle them.

However, to assume that these vile forms of human species can only be found within the BJP/RSS would be erroneous at best. These devils come in various forms, changing shape and form as often as they try to change our history books. Infact the BJP/RSS types are easier to identify and be aware of. It makes it easier to see through them and protect ourselves.

Indeed, the very reason that old, impotent, "farting in the dhoti" Vajpayee had been chosen by the BJP baboons was that he was the more cunning amongst their species. The party needed an opaque true Bahman like him to mask its true nature. And again full credits to him. He had the world and nation fooled. Jats talk about him as "Vajpayee Ji". I puke at the very thought. The Advanis and Joshis have lost the Bahmanical skills to mask and decieve. No wonder we can better protect ourselves from them. We can see the enemies. Vajpayee is however a different beast.

However, there is an old saying: "It is wise to befriend the enemy". There is a lot of depth in this little statement. By staying close to these devils we will be able to keep abreast of their ploys and be better able to understand their cunning ways. We need to be aware of how their devious minds work. We need to be part of their organisations, work with them, within them.
The fear is that doing so we may become one of them and lose our identity.

Unfortunately, the congress baboons are hardly any better. Truthfully, they might have more Vajpayees than the BJP/RSS.

We just have to stand for ourselves, make alliances of convenience as necessary...and try to come up with the upper hand.

And that's the real task. To be aware of who we are and where we want to go. To stick together as a community and not allow these demons to fragment us and use us for their own gains and agendas. To empower ourselves through them but despite them.

I wonder if Chautala is becoming more and more adept at that ? He had them pretty good in the last assembly elections, and now he might take them for a ride in the next ones as well.

We shall see.
 
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