Origin of Jats

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Very nice collection Sir, First time I studied too much about Jats, But one thing I want to know that the what so called Thakur in U.P. M.P. or Bihar now Can they be related to those rajputs which you related here with jats. Second thing Sir- Thakurs are not as talls and well bult as jats also one things in Jats is There sharp featured face specially long Nose i.e.not coomon in them.
Also sir what does SCYTHIAN term indicate here.
Can u put some lights on this sir?
Your work is excellent.
 
Ch. Ashok verma ji thank's for all this information. I need some information from you if you have, I am from minhas gotra, minhas are Rajput, and Jat also, And minhas fanunded bay mananhans, brother of surajhans ruler of jammu.virk jat also consider themself from mananhans . Minhas mostly living in J&K, Punjab and Himachel. If you have more informathon about Minhas gotra pl e-mail me. minhas.minhas@chello.at
 
Very interesting information.

There seems to be some basic dichotomy somewhere like the 'Chicken and egg" dilemma. Let me try to gather some details.
 
Ram Ram to all. This particular topic has been quite unusual one. Every reaction has been a pat on the back for Ch Ashok Kumar. He has gathered lot of information and covered a lot of history. Unfortunately the sources have not bee cited, except the Jagas.
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Ch Ashok has single handedly demolished the usual perception of Jat history in ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:place>India</ST1:place></st1:country-region>. And he has got kudos from all ! At the same time he has pointed out the root causes of the ills of Jat society today – the Brahamans. I wish so much of hatred had been spared. Perhaps most of us similar perception. Hence the unusually high no of kudos. Where have we reached ? All kinds of wild allegations are heaped upon a section of population who rarely had any political or military power.
Jats were always outside Brahaman’s close control, but they could not keep aloof from casteism !
Most of all Brahaman’s made a trade out of creating new Gotras for Jats !
The use of word Rajput gained momentum under the British rule. The Brahamans never used this word. Still Brahamans were dividing the Jats by purifying some of them into Hindu fold !
Ch Ashok Vermaji, in one stroke you have made us rootless people. We are not Indians nor are we Hindus.
 
A Vedic civillisation that is the mother of even the ancient Greeks what to talk of office:smarttags" Asia. Still Scythians appeared as a totally new breed ?

What is most disappointing is the reaction of forum members. How do we get swayed so much that such glaring prejudices and mischievous claims get lauded ? Have we forgotten our history or did not know at all ?

An article full of contradictions and not one critique ? Not one to raise an eyebrow ?

I wonder what the sources of Ch Ashokji’s information are. There are many enemies and fifth columnists who would go to any extent to create fissures in the Indian and Hindu society.
Hope the members have noted that a stooge of Arabia had the audacity to cast aspersions on Prithvi Raj Chauhan’s mother.
Knowing the grave threat to Indian civillisation isn’t it time the intellectuals and educated give up their baggage of dislike fsor fellow Indians ? Can we not do something to root out the differences even if they exist today ? Otherwise, we are strengthening the enemies of Bharatmata.
 
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Pre-Islamic history of West Asia
Manju Gupta

Once Upon a Time by Sudhakar Raje, Babasaheb Apte Samarak Samiti, 180 pp, Rs 100.00

Sudhakar Raje with painstaking effort has culled into some 200 pages the pre-Islamic Hindu history of the non-Muslim West Asia. He begins his book by saying that "icons, temples and scriptures (along with the language in which they are written) are evident, recognisable relics of the imprint Hindu influence has left on the world." Quoting Anwar Shaikh, a Pakistani Muslim scholar who, referring to Manu Smriti, has said, "Here is a Vedic law which clearly shows Vedic influence on the Middle Eastern culture and the Reformation that took place in Europe," the author says that the most modern imprint is that of the amazing progress of ancient Hindus who achieved in the sciences ranging from mathematics to medicine, from astronomy to engineering."

The book starts with Hindu influence in the hoary past in south- eastern Turkey at Nevali Cori. Prof. Herald Hauptmann of Germany, through excava-tion had come across "well planned massive structures, almost competing in finesse with the imposing architecture of the Assyrians who lived in the region thousands of year later. They are erected in staight lines and at right angles, like villas, with stone blocks. . . There was also an ancient form of air-condition-ing in each building. This was achieved though gaps in the floor, below which water from a stream in the region could be made to flow."

In Baluchistan is an island called Satadwipa where a Kali temple has been found and so is another temple of Mahadeva. This north-western region was a bustling centre of international trade during the heydays of the Indus Valley civilisation.

Archaeological research has resulted in discovery of protohistoric sites in Afghanistan that prove its close religio-cultural affinity with Hindu India. The author shows how references to Afghansitan, its rivers and towns are found in Rig Veda and that Ghazni had Hindu origin. What makes for moving reading is the reference to the two world-famous colossal statues of Buddha at Bamiyan, 53 and 35 metres tall, carved out of cliffs - "the remains that no longer remain" - thanks to the Taliban vandals who indulged in this wanton act because Islam required them to be butshikan (idol breakers).

The Iranian connection with Vedic India is traced back to the Rig Veda. The author quotes from Collecting the pebles Hibermicus written by Sir William Jones, "It has been proved by clear evidence and plain reasoning that a powerful monarchy was established in Iran long before the Assyrian or Pishdadi government, that it was truly a Hindu monarchy... that it subsisted many centuries, and that its history has been ingrafted on that of the Hindus who founded the monarchies of Ayodhya and Indraprastha."

Talking about the land between the two rivers - the Euphrates and Tigris, the author says ancient artefacts found in Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq) point to the link with Vedic Hindus. Seals found in Sumeria of Mesopotamia are similar to those found at Mohenjodaro.

Even Syria is said to have a Hindu past, so much so that it derived its name from Surya or Sun.

Arabia, the homeland of Islam has a long and rich Hindu pre-history. Arabia stands for Arabastan which is a distortion of Sanskrit name Asvasthan meaning the land of horses. He explains how Guru Nanak even said that Kaba (in Mecca) was a Shiva temple. Hind was a popular name among pre-Islamic Arabs. One of Mohammed's wives was named Hind.

Discussing Egypt's Hindu heritage, the author says that hieroglyphs of Middle East and Indus Valley civilisations were similar, and has quoted French historian, who has said that "Egyptians of those times considered that Osiris had originally come from India, the land of Shiva."

The author through his book has succeeded in presenting a review of the pre-Islamic past a what is now known as the West Asia, broadly tracing the near-westward spread of Hindu religion, culture and civilisation in ancient times. "The pre-Islamic Hindu history of the non-Muslim West Asia appears to have begun at least 9,000 years ago and it continued literally for millenniums, at last coming to an end on the day Mohammad inaugurated Islam, with the destruction of the Hindu shrine of Kaba."

The author has aptly concluded his book by quoting Arnold Toynbee who had said, "It has already become clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have an Indian ending. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history, the only way of salvation for makind is the Indian way."

(Babasaheb Apte Samarak Samiti, 7 Madhusudan, Playground Road, Vile Parle (E), Mumbai-400 057.)
 
From Mr Sampuran Singh

Here is a response from Mr Sampuran Singh which he could not post for some technical reasons;

..................................................................................................
Ch Ashok Vermaji. Ram Ram.
It shows that you have done lot of work in posting the info on the
thread. However, as said in the earlier post there is some basic
dichotomy in your hypothesis. There are three major themes in your
posts:

1 JATS ARE EXTERNAL TO INDIA

You say they were Scythian attackers (or migrants). There is no
evidence of migration or of their attacks in the available historical
and literary records of India. Whether the same exists in Scythian
memory, I don't know.

The evidence of Puranas as historical treatise has to be treated with
caution. They are more imaginary, that's why while mentioning them we
use the term 'Katahyen'. Going by the Puranas, would we all agree
that numerous devatas lived in many lokas, scores of times the
Shrishti was on the verge of destruction by some mad Asur or other,
Narad Muni used to take frequent trips all over the universe ?

You have cited some dress codes and customs to be non-Hindu. Scythians
obviously had to have different types of dress because of the higher
latitudes and colder climate. But where is the evidence of their
coming here ? In fact, human migrations have been from warmer to
colder climates, as the civillisations progressed and human became
accustomed to lower temperatures and devised ways to keep themselves
warm. Some references can be found in the book - EAT RIGHT FOR YOUR
BLOOD TYPE

Just go across the Jawahar tunnel and you will find a stark difference
in the temperature, weather and the living style of the people. It
could be that Jats migrated from India to Scythia, hence the
similarity in the customs.

Jats or any farming (warrior) communities live a "Karmayogi" life. The
realization that it is one's effort and hard work that counts in
growing crops, rearing animals and fighting the enemy comes naturally
and early in life. No diety can help in these activities. Invocations
are purely for psychological reasons. Hence, such people never had a
special fancy for a particular deity or god. But it is doubtful if the
concept of God, the almighty, was alien to them !

Jats looked different and lived different because of their profession.
Don't we see the same thing even today – farmer dress in certain
manner, soldiers differently, professionals again differently,
politicians also differently, and so on. Except the followers of
early Islam (and today the proponents of Arabian looks for all
muslims) ruling elite in every society/religion have always lived
outside the control of the clergy. They follow whatever customs are
convenient to them. Nothing more.

Sh Jinnah used to wear western suits, smoked pipe and consumed liquor.
He would have rarely seen a mosque from inside. He looked at mullas
with contempt and derision. He spoke English with pride rather than
Arabic or Urdu. To say that Jats were non-Hindu is like saying Sh
Jinnah was not a muslim !

Historian Sh BS Dahiya has established the lineage of Jat Gotras going
upto Rig Vedic times. When they were already here many thousand years
before, how do you now say that they came from Scythia ?

The idea of India's civillisational expanse even at the time of
Mahabharat, covers all of central Asia, not just northern India and
present Pakistan. 'Utter Kuru' that is referred was what is present
day Turkmenisthan and Ujbekisthan. In the Indian memory and outlook
all these areas were also 'Aryavrat' ( Read INCREDIBLE ARAYN
TECHNOLOGY BY NATALIA LESHKOVA AT www.organiser.org ) It gives you a
fair idea of the spread of Indian civillisation in ancient times.
(3000 BC). So Sakas were no different than Indians as far as culture
is concerned. They may have conquered northern India but that does not
make them alien to Indian culture.

It would have been much better had a timeline been given as to when
(AD or BC) something happened. The world talks of 1550 AD and before
as medieval period. When they say ancient you may go back to 1500 –
2000 BC. But in Indian context this is not too distant. Mahabharat war
was fought around 3100 BC, As per one estimate Ram was born on 10
January 5114 BC.(http://spirituality.indiatimes.com/articleshow/278911.cms)
Based on Vedang Jyotish, this date is 17 January 10205 BC ! ( THE
RAMA LEGEND BY V Sundaram). The Vedas were compiled before that. It
since those times that women addressed their husbands as 'Aryaputra' .

Saraswati dried up around 2000 BC. The epicenter of Indian
civillisation shifted to Indus valley and the Gangetic plains.
However, there were migrations further westwards to Persia and beyond,
and into European region. That's when Zoroastrianism was born in
Persia. It is almost like the Vedic religion.

Vedas were the religious scriptures to which the Arabs owed allegiance
as early as 1800 B.C. A poem was written by Labi-Bin-E-
Akhtab-Bin-E-Turfa who lived in Arabia around 1850 B.C. The verse can
be found in Sair- Ul-Okul which is an anthology of ancient Arabic
poetry. It was compiled in 1742 AD under order of the Turkish Sultan
Salim. It proves not only the antiquity of the Vedas but also the
existence of Indian rule over the entire region from the Indus to the
Mediterranean.

Vedic culture was very much alive just before the birth of Muhammad.
Again let's refer to the Sair-Ul-Okul. The following poem was written
by Jirrham Bintoi who lived 165 years before the prophet Muhammed. It
is in praise of India's great King Vikramaditya who had lived 500
years before Bintoi.

(Sair-ul-Okul, Page 315)

"Fortunate are those who were born
during King Vikram's reign, he was
a noble generous, dutiful ruler devoted
to the welfare of his subjects. But at
that time, We Arabs oblivious of divinity
were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting
& torture were rampant. The darkness of
ignorance had enveloped our country.
Like the lamb struggling for its life
in the cruel jaws of a wolf, we Arabs
were gripped by ignorance. The whole
country was enveloped in a darkness as
intense as on a New moon night. But the
present dawn & pleasant sunshine of
education is the result of the favor of
that noble king Vikram whose benevolence
did not lose sight of us foreigners as we
were. He spread his sacred culture amongst
us and sent scholars from his own land
whose brilliance shone like that of the sun
in our country. These scholars & preceptors
through whose benevolence we were once again
made aware of the presence of god, introduced
to his secret knowledge & put on the road to
truth, had come to our country to initiate us
in that culture & impart education."

In his book Origines, Volumes 3 & 4", Sir W. Drummond adds:

"Tsabaism was the universal language of mankind when Abraham received
his call, their doctrines were probably extended all over the
civilized nations of Earth."

Tsabaism is merely the corruption of the word Shaivism which is Vedic
religion. (INCIDENTLY Vikramaditya himself was a devotee of Lord Shiv)
On page 439 of this book, Sir Drummond mentions some of gods of
pre-Islamic Arabs, all of which were included in the 360 idols that
were consecrated in the Kaba shrine before it was raided and destroyed
by Muhammad and his followers.
(http://p081.ezboard.com/fhinduunityarchivessectionhinduunitycom.showMessage?topicID=112.topic)

You have said' "Jats being Aryans is not being questioned. The point
is that they were not Indo-Aryans, but Indo-Scythian-Aryans". The
fact is Aryans were Indians. They did not come from outside. Scythians
were also Aryans. Geographical distance would automatically bring
about linguistic and cultural differences. But that does not make them
non-Hindu. As far as outside attacks on the Indian civillisation are
concerned, Alexander - the Ordinary, was the first one. There is NO
evidence of any other before him. Next were the muslims. Even though
they came from the same stock, but the world view and behaviour
(dharama) of a person totally changes when he becomes a muslim. So you
can call them to be totally new breed. And last were the westerners in
17- 18 century AD. Detailed explanation is given in - DEBUNKING ARYAN
INVASION THEORY by David Frawley at www.vedanet.com

The point is simple – the spread and influence of indian civillisation
is far too big to make narrow conclusions that jats were outsiders.


2. BRAHMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THAT WENT WRONG OR IS WRONG WITH
INDIAN SOCIETY...............cont.
 
From Sampuran Singh...cont.

Unfortunately, far too much venom has been spewed on them. I wont go
into individual sentences, but to say, " It is only with the influence
of Brahamans and Rajputs some of the ills have seeped into Jat
society, like killing a girl child", indicates poor understanding of
historical influences on Indian society.

There is no doubt, civillisational decline started with the
degradation of Varnasharam dharma into hereditary caste system. That
was very early – in 3200 BC. Guru Dronacharya refused to teach Ekalvya
because the later was not a Kshatriya. That's why Sri Krishna had to
clarify in the Geeta - As per shloka numbered IV (13), depending upon
a persons guna (aptitude) and karma (actions), there are four varnas.
As per this shloka, a persons varna is determined by his guna and
karma, and not by his birth.

Furhter in Maneesha Panchakam of Sri Sankaracharya by Swami
Chinmayananda, Central Chinmaya Mission Trust, Mumbai the following
explanation is given - He who in his direct experience of the
Immaculate Supreme-Bliss-Eternal, has come to the firm understanding
that the entire universe is but an extensive play of pure
consciousness, all projected by his 'ignorance', expressed in the
three moods of his mind, while he himself is but that Brahman - he
alone is my Guru, be he a sweeper, be he a Brahmin.

The above two examples are to show that decline started long long back
and there were constant efforts to stem the same. However, the
question is ARE THE BRAHAMANS SINGLE HANDEDLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAME?

Could they have succeeded without full support of the rulers – the kshatriyas ?

Had not the kshatriyas given up their dharama and become selfish ?

Have not the Jats promoted casteism, even if they are not at the
pinnacle of the social ladder ?

With the kind of majority and might the Jats had, could they have not
corrected the brahamans ?

The answer is obvious to all of us. Everyone had an interest in
promoting casteism, except the poor untouchable Chooras. Why single
out the Brahamans.

The birth of Buddhism was a reaction to social violence. Buddha, a
prince, wanted peaceful settlement of the water dispute between his
kingdom and the neighbouring one. But the Sabha overruled him (some
example of democracy) and wanted to fight. That's why he took up
sanyas. This is the latest research by a dalit IAS officer. I shall
forward the specific references when available.
(www.countercurrents.org) Social equality was just a byproduct of
Buddha's preaching of non-violence. Its inequality that brings about
'ahm' in some and 'jealousy' in others.

So your contention that Buddhism was a result of synthesis between
what existed in India and what the Scythians brought does not stand.

The rise of Buddhism in India forced the Brahamans to go on a
counteroffensive. They brought in the concept of castes and the Manu
Smriti was re-written. But this whole re-structuring done to serve the
interests of the Brahamans weakened the political power. No political
power in the country could be established the empires as established
by Ashoka, Sakas, Kanishka, Chandragupta Vikramaditya and Harsha.

The theme of the above contention is factually wrong. Brahamans did go
on counter offensive, may be, also to preserve their own hold. But
hind – sight has amply demonstrated a vital weakness of Buddhism.

Those who jump with glee at the mention of the name of Ashoka, because
he was eulogised by H.G. Wells, must remember that, the mighty empire
which extended from the Bay of Bengal to the interior of Afghanistan
and from the Himalayas to deep down into the Deccan, barring the
southern-most tip, got so weakened under the constant chanting of
ahimsa from the pulpit and the throne that it disintegrated within 48
years following his death. After him, there was a succession of seven
kings in such a short period of time. Look at the political
instability brought in by his obsession with ahimsa. Last of the
Mauryan kings, Brihadrath, was beheaded.

In 259 b.c. Ashoka stopped the royal hunt. The question that arises
is: How would a king, who could not face a wild animal, face an enemy
on the battlefield and with what result? Before embracing Buddhism, he
was a warrior and had conquered Kalinga. But, once he became a
Buddhist, his martial spirit simply vanished.

Likewise, Harsha, before becoming a Buddhist, was a warrior. He had
secured the release of his imprisoned sister through bravery. But,
once he embraced Buddhism, he changed altogether into a different
person. His kingdom disintegrated and India's decline set in. Buddhism
flourished under state patronage and eventually took toll of its
patrons.

A parallel situation prevailed in India nearly half a century ago.
After Independence, Buddhism became the undeclared religion of the
ruling elite. Jawahar Lal Nehru carried pictures of Gautam Buddha in
the folders he carried, whenever he went on a foreign tour. A fellow
Kashmiri, Dr Kailash Nath Katju, Governor of West Bengal (later Home
Minister at the Centre), once carried the physical remains of Maha
Moglana and Sari Puttar, the two prominent disciples of Buddha, on his
head through the streets of Kolkata. Ahimsa was the pet refrain of
their speeches, from both the public and private platforms. This
obsession with ahimsa had a demoralising effect on the morale of the
Indian army. The same army that had won nearly two dozen Victoria
Crosses for its bravery during the Second World War, could no longer
capture even a dead Chinese in the 1962 conflict with China.

The famous 4th Indian Army Division (Kitehawk), which during the
Second World War fought in North Africa against General Rommel and
later at Monte Casino on the European mainland and won two Victoria
Crosses, cut a sorry figure when posted to defend the Se La Pass, at
the commanding height of 16,000 feet. When the Pass was occupied by
the Chinese, the Western press interpreted it as a staggering blow to
the Indian army. Ahimsa lay raped by the invading hordes.

At one time, Tibet was a military power. "Once they had imposed their
authority on the intervening tribes, the Tibetans pressed on into
China itself and in a.d. 635 their young king Song-tsen-Gampo demanded
and eventually received a Chinese princess as his bride." (Tibet & its
History by H.E. Richardson, pp. 28-29, 1962). But as the influence of
Lamaism grew, Tibet regressed into primitivism. And just recall where
it was in March 1959? Look at Burma (modern-day Myanmar) with its
insular society where Buddhism is still the State religion. This
country is conspicuous by its absence at all international fora. Dr.
S. Radhakrishnan wrote that Buddhism could not withstand the ferocity
of Muslim invasion and thus vanished from India.

Swami Vivekananda wrote that some Buddhist monasteries in India had
about one hundred thousand monks. When brain power and muscle power
had taken to the monastic order, only weaklings were left for the
progeny to defence. Taxila had more than 10000 students at any given
time. All, repeat, All of them were massacred in one single day, even
when they were totally unarmed and harmless. The library contained
more than 1 million books. It burnt for 3 days. At Nalanda, 30,000
Buddhists were slaughtered by one of the Khiljis, literature burnt and
university razed to the ground. In fact, all the existing universities
were destroyed by foreign invaders; and during the Muslim period, not
even one university was raised.

When on the battlefield of Kurukshetra, Arjuna was shirking duty and
inventing excuses to avoid fighting the enemy, it was the teachings of
the Gita which inspired him to cast aside impotence, stand up and
fight.

Adi Shankaracharya, the seer-philosopher, in his book Prashan Uttari
asks the question as to "who is a living dead"? He answers the
question himself by saying, "He who is not dynamic."
Shivaji was nurtured by his mother, Jija Bai, on the stories from the
Ramayana and the Mahabharata. The boy grew up into a warrior, stood up
to the tyrant Aurangzeb and carved out a kingdom of his own.

Lokmanya Tilak, the scholar-politician who wrote a commentary on the
Gita in Mandlay Jail, inspired the nation with the slogan—'freedom is
my birthright'.

During those dark days, when Chinese invasion was in full swing, in
order to boost the Indians' sagging morale, the Absolute Ahimsa Vadis
brought one Shankaracharya, who delivered his speech in Sanskrit, on
the foreign service of All India Radio. Furthermore, their radio had
also been telling the listeners that Radha, consort of Shri Krishna
was from the Lohit division of NEFA, they had realised, though
belatedly, as to wherein lay the source of inspiration to face foreign
invasion.
...................cont.
 
From Sampuran Singh............cont.

Prithiviraj Chauhan made forgiveness the cornerstone of his foreign
policy towards the foreign invader. The invader launched 18 invasions
on India; 17 times, he was defeated, captured but pardoned and let
free every time. On the 18th invasion, Prithviraj lost and he was
never pardoned. Had Prithviraj at the time of second invasion used
dand ensuring the elimination of the enemy once and for all, the
course of Indian history would have been altogether different.
(http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=86&page=31)

Great kingdoms flourished before Buddhist influence. They crumbled
once Buddhist teachings of non-violence were imbibed. Central Asia was
completely Buddhist. No kingdom survived even one generation when the
muslim invasions started. Even Zoroastrian Persia was subjugated
within 16 years. But Hindu India still survives.

Perhaps Brahamans wanted to preserve their hegemony when they exhorted
people to keep away from Buddhists. Perhaps they realized that society
wont survive once martial spirit is discarded. History has only
vindicated their stand.

Still Brahamans cant be called as the 'noble' ones. You may say they
are the scum of Indian society. If casteism is the benchmark, can you
and I say we (Jats) are not ?


2 RAJPUT – JAT SIMILARITIES AND DIFFERENCES

First of all the theory of creation of the Rajputs is incorrect. They
are from the same stock as Jats, no doubt. The emergence of the
Rajputs was to save India from Islamic zealots, much like Guru Nanak
started the Khalsa. At the time of Muslim attacks in India, the
country was divided into many small kingships. In-fighting was the
norm. The muslim rule brought about inhuman conditions. After
converting to Islam, Arabs forgot what was good in their
multi-cultural society. Now they had no principles, no morals, no
shame and no mercy. This was a new kind of war. Not known to mankind,
certainly not to the Indian civillisation. Wherever muslims went, they
destroyed, plundered, looted, burnt, raped, took slaves and
established large harems. Very proudly they maintained written record
of their exploits. One just has to go through Arabic, Persian and Urdu
records.

That is why Islam generates such a feeling of disgust and revulsion
among common Indians. An appropriate example could be the story about
the birth village of Kakraula near Palam, Delhi. It is a typical
example of muslim tyranny, 'kaminapan' would be more apt. That's why
the word "Mlechchha' came into being.

It fell upon the Brahamans to find ways to fight for survival. That's
when kshatriyata was re-emphasised. Those people who opted to fight
were 'purified' as Rajputs. It is another matter that, as is human,
they themselves became corrupt. As did the rest of the Jats.

The practice of Sati and killing of girl child are today social evils.
But they had to find ways to maintain their honour. Not falling in the
hands of 'mlachchhas' was the only option. After the first victory,
when the followers of Prophet Mohammed brought abducted women, they
asked him about what to do. Prophet Mohammed told them to adopt the
women as wives but put two conditions – not more than four each and no
woman whose husband was alive should be taken as wife. Thereafter,
they made sure that wherever they won, all the surrendering men were
killed. The Great Akbar did not spare even one of the 30000 soldiers
that surrendered when Rana Sanga was defeated. Not just that, as soon
as any Arab would die, there used to be mad scramble to usurp his
widowed wives. Prophet Mohammed had to come up with a special Quoranic
injunction to prevent same fate falling onto his many wives.

There is a saying – Yatha raja, thahta praja. These rajas stayed far
too long in India. Their characteristics had to percolate down to the
common people. More so, because, as time went, more and more people
were being converted to Islam either by oppression or threat or
allurement or deception.
(India In Danger: The Offensive of Islam)
http://bojilkolarov.voiceofdharma.com/offensive.html


May be Indians would have overcome the scourge of Islam. But the
Britishers appeared at the wrong time. Hinduism was on the rise when
Britishers came. Bahadur Shah Jafar was for namesake. Converted
muslims had been gradually absorbed into Hindu culture. At least at
the level of common people, if not the mullas, Hindu religious
practices were as much respected as the muslim ones. There were no
communal riots till the Britishers sowed seeds of hatred. Whatever
muslims could not accomplish, was furthered by the British with full
zest.

The details are not important. Suffice to say the the degeneration of
the varna system into caste system started downfall of the society.
The class system became incomprehensible for the high classes. The
degeneration of the caste system started in two main areas:
1. In losing the sense for human brotherhood, and the solidarity
between people, and
2. Indirectly, in the degradation of the religion, which stopped to be
comprehensible for a larger part of the population. The two negative
consequences were a result of the conceitedness of the high classes.
The blame is, of course, with the higher classes, mostly with the
Brahmins. The Brahmins, taking advantage of the trust given to them by
the legislators, at a certain moment forgot that they were only
bearers of high social functions, and decided they were some
God-chosen race, standing far too higher than the rest people. With
the time, this conceitedness and arrogance turned into disgust and
even revulsion at the representatives of the lower castes. As Tagore
says, looking only upward to the sky, they forgot their brothers here
on the earth.

The next sin of the priests was that they restricted absolutely
illegally the access of the population to the Sacred Books. Even the
code " The Laws of Manu" is rather reactionary.** It is hardly created
by Manu himself, most probably his creators have showed much
imagination. We can read the following about the obligations of the
four varnas: " In order to preserve this whole universe, he the Most
Holy, for those born from the mouth, hands, thighs and feet,
determined the following activities. Education, study ( of the Vedas),
offering for themselves and offering for the other, giving and
receiving (alms) he determined for the Brahmans. Protection of the
subjects, giving (alms), sacrifice, studying (of the Vedas) and
non-attachment to the world solace he determined for the Kshatrias.
Grazing the cattle, and also giving (alms), sacrifice, studying ( of
the Vedas), trade, crafts and agriculture – for the Vaishyas. But only
one activity determined for the ruler of the Shudra - to serve these
Varnas with humiliation."
Since the masses continued to sink into ignorance, as a result of the
unwillingness of the priests to help them, they soon began to create
new Mighty Gods. Unknowingly, Vishnu, who is the Vedas is only a
second-class personage, and in the early Upanishadas is barely
mentioned, was created by the people into a first-class God (and not
the only God). Thus for a second time the religion faced the danger of
polytheism. Now, in order to save Hinduism, Shri Krishna himself had
to officially " acknowledge" the new name, to transform Vishnu is the
only and absolute God, who took the place of Brahma. The appearance of
Adi Shankara, Buddh, Mahavir, Guru Nanak, Vivekanand, Dayanand etc has
only helped in slowing the process of degeneration.
For it to be reversed, a critical mass of right thinking people with
selfless attitude is required. Unfortunately, there are far too many
fifth columanists in the society. We ourselves want to maintain
individual caste and regional identities. Then there are the Semites,
who derive inspiration from abroad and weaken their own motherland in
the fond illusion of establishing Shariat or Kingdom of God. They
forget the extreme humiliations and torture their fore-father would
have suffered at the hands of the Arabs and missionaries. Then there
are the ostriches, refusing to see the writing on the wall. May be
they are foolish, may be they are paid servants, may be they are
cutting their own roots out of sincere conviction.
Early on it was the muslim theologians who tried to give separate
identity to the Indian muslims. Fortunately most of them went to
Pakistan at the time of partition. Otherwise, what is happening there
would have been taking place in India. But the respite is purely
temporary. Then there are the Christian converts who like to parrot
that Tamils, Mallus, Trbials, Goans, Nagas, Manipuris, Arunachalis,
Assamese etc are different than Indians. Now here you are advocating
that the Jats areScythians NOT HINDU. On top of that you say Scythians
were not as civilized as ancient Indians. But they went on to
establish thriving empires It is similar to the paradox that the
infamous Aryan Invasion Theory fails to answer – An advanced Indus
valley civillisation had no written knowledge, whereas the uncouth
barbarians and imaginary Aryan tribes wrote the most comprehensive
books of knowledge that mankind has produced so far !
COULD YOU CLARIFY WHO YOU THINK ARE HINDUS AND WHO ARE ORIGINAL INDIANS ?

Sampuran Singh

...............................................................................................
 
chashokverma said:
1. The concept of Castes and Gotra is a Brahmanical system of deciding ones social status so that all rites including marriage as per the Manu Smrati can be conducted. Manu Smrati divides the Hindu society into four varnas; Brahman, Khatriya, Vaishya and Shoodra. The other non-Hindus were not included into this division. In the same Varnas there are many Castes and in the same Caste there are many Gotras. The word ‘Gotra’ is a Sanskrit word which means ‘ the place to keep cows’ (Gao- cow+ atra-place or shed). The Vedic Aryans were basically cow herders. They settled down in the vast land of Bharata in pockets after clearing Jungles. There were large distances between these settlements. Population was sparse. It was not the India of today. River Saraswati was flowing in Haryana. Each settlement had commonplace to keep cows and in rotation some people from the settlement were detailed to take cows for grazing (as the practice is now even prevalent in the villages of Rajasthan). Cow grazing was the biggest socializing opportunity and event to share the honor of a particular gotra (cow was and is the most respected animal by the Brahmans). Therefore from the place of the cows the Vedic Aryans derived their name of gotra. As the distances between these settlements were large Sa-gotra marriage (marrying into same gotra) was a common practice ( as was prevalent in the Pharaohs of Egypt). With the increase of population density and many more settlements, many gotras came within the interacting distances and the marriages among the same Gotra was prohibited. There were Varnas as per the profession of a person, which could change but the castes were not yet created.
2. Then came the migration of Indo Scithians. As per Sri-mad Bhagawat Puran, after the battle of Mahabharat the Arjuna is send by Yudhistir to Dwarka to find out the well being of Kishna. He comes back after seven months to inform Yudhitir about the collapse of Jadu Vansha because of fighting within themselves and disappearance of Lord Krishna. He also tells about of his defeat in the hands of some animal grazers and his inability to reach Dwarka.. Yudhistir also expresses his anxiety by sating certain ill omens. It is then that Pandwas migrate to Himalayas. Sri-mad Bhagwat Puran also mentions the presence of some irreligious people and the story of punishment of them in hands of Raja Parikchit, the grand son of Arjun. After Raja Parikchit the Padu Vansh lost power. Who defeated them?
3. It is a known fact that Sakas (one of the earliest branch of Indo Schithain Aryans) invaded Indian Sub continent from a place called Jatie in Persia ( may be the Sakas were also called Jats because of their place of origin in persia. But there is no evidence to support this) through Baluchistan- Sindh- Sourashtra (Gujrat) – Malwa (MP)- Mathura (North India). The route taken by them and the sequence of collapse of Jadu and Pandu vanshas establishes the fact that the so-called irreligious people in Bhagavat Puran were the Sakas. They first invaded Jadus in Dwarka and conquered Gujrat, Northern Maharashtra- Malwa (MP) and Mathura before defeating much stronger Pandus in North India. In the entire history of India, only Sakas took this route for conquering India.

....see next post

17 Aug 02 Ashok
Click to expand...
Great Job Done Ch. Ashok Verma,
Here in Hisar, many well qualified Jats are not aware of their origin. Some time I have to intervene and clear misconceptions. From Folklores and most celebrated traditional festival (Holi) supports your documentation of link between Jats and Yadavs.
Most of the folklores are resticted to mixed farming. That is, rearing animals and agriculture. Even at present, most, rather all traditional Jats are vegetarians, that supports your link as herdsmen.
What made your documentation more intresting for me was anti-brahaminal attitude. Although, I have read it for the first time in your documents, but I can see it in every Jat. There must be more reasons for it. Universal adoption of Aryan Hindu philisophy and relinquishing Sanatan Dharm Hindu philosophy, is a clear cut indication of Jat community's hatered for Brahaminical dominance of yore. Whereas brahamins of Haryana, Raj and Western UP still follow Sanatan Dharm Hindu philosophy.
Thanks, Cho Sahib for your illuminating contribution.
Prof PK Peshin
pkpeshin@hotmail.com
 
Histoy

Sampuran Singh Ji Namaskar,

Very interesting information you have posted. I do not have much knowledge about the origins of the jats which is the topic of this thread, but this thread is much more than what its topic suggests, it is about trying to find the most correct information. So I also thought of writing something.

In your post there is a mention of Sati pratha and one incident from Mahabharata (Dronacharya and Eklavaya).

Sati Partha:
Based on what I have read the first incident of sati occurred during Mahabharata. When Pandu died, his wife Madri also finished herself after his death. Before that there is no mention of Sati in Indian history. According to Swamy Dayanand Saraswati Madri is the first known Sati. Sati pratha might have been practiced more during the Muslim rule but it was started long before that.

Mahaharat:
We can not go back in to the history, so we have to rely on the history books and try to find the answers. Unfortunately different people have interpreted them according to their own ease, so it becomes very difficult to find what the truth is?

Before proceeding further, I am making an assumption here. Let us assume that Mahabharata war was really fought and that everything in Mahabharata epic is TRUE.

The kind of vidya Dronacharya and Parshuram were giving can be compared to today’s nuclear weapons technology. So is it okay to give that kind of technology to everyone? Pakistan has got access to the nuclear technology and the whole world (or at least India) has lost its sleep. America has nuclear weapon but they are not a threat to the humanity and to this world. But if terrorist gets that kind of power, one can only imagine what would happen? Similarly, India has nuclear weapons but they are no threat to the world. Now let us come back to Mahabhart, Dronacharya did not teach shastra vidya to Eklavya and Karana. But it is not because of their not being khsatriya or Brahaman. He believed that this vidya should only be given to supatra (A Well-deserving person) and he thought Karan wanted to learn shastra vidaya only to kill Arjuna and that is why he refused to admit him to his gurukul. Same is the case of Eklavaya. And he was not all wrong; they both (Karan and Eklavya) were against the Pandawa in the war.

Even today every institution has its own admission process and they all conduct different kind of exams and interview before the admission. Dronacharya and Parshuram had their own gurukul and they might have also had some kind of screening and those who failed were not admitted to their school. So what is wrong in that? Should IIT's start admitting candidates without any merits?

At some point (unknown to me) in the history a particular group of people were considered as lowly people and they were denied access to almost everything. And to prove it right some influential people started quoting the example from History. and this is one such example that in Mahabhart Dronacharya also did not teach a shudra so they (shudra) should not be allowed to have access to any kind of education.

Probably Dronacharya was not like what we are being told today.

This is how I see it.
 
Arun Kumarji,
Thanks a lot for the clarification. What you said is absolutely true. App bandar ke haath mein talwar nahin de sakte!
It is possible that same principle was interpreted in a different manner as time progressed and caste based restrictions came in.
Well.. what I wrote may show Guru Drona in some light. We should also remember that the same Guru did not hesisate in teaching Drushtdhyumn, who he knew was going to be the reaon for his dealth. That shows some dedication to the 'dharama' of a teacher !


Kalkhandeji
Thanks for doing the needful.
 
This is very interesting thread.... A similar discussion about Jat origin is going in India-forum.com where lots of people(more non-Jats) are discussing.. Its clear that common people have lots of mis-conception about history and origin of Jats... I would request member who have knowledge of this subject to participate there becuz it might dispel sterotypical ideas on Jats thrown by people.. and instead of our "preaching to the choir" we might educate others about "our" origin and history... Following 2 thread are relevent..

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1030

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1051

Vinod
 
origin of jats

Sangwan Bhai
Thanks for supplying that link to indiaforum. The thread that side does contain lot of interesting information and arguments. What we need to keep in mind is what somebody that side has said :-

Of late there have been consistent attempts by enemies of Bharat and Hindus, the muslims and christians, to spread canards like Rajputs and Jats having come from outside India. It is similar to the canard propagated by the British (courtsey Max Muller) that there was an Aryan Invasion of India. Unfortunately, some dalit intellectuals, out of their dislike for upper castes, have also got brainwashed and joined this bandwagon. What every Indian has to keep in mind is that these enemies (snakes in the bedding) will stoop to any level to destroy India. It would be foolish to expect them to show morality, like Mohammed Ghauri did not or muslims and christist have never done in any country. We need to keep our guard and call their lies at every forum.
 
I came across the link to an interesting book called Proof of Vedic Culture's Global Existence by Stephen Knapp. I wonder if some one has read this book and can tell us more about what author has written.

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/proof_of_vedic_culture's_global_existence.htm

Rajendra
 
There is plenty of info giving details of how vedic relics and related writings have been discovered all over the world.

Some common ones are

www.salagram.net
www.voi.org
www.atributetohinduism.com

Below is just a glimpse of Vedic culture in Pre-islamic Arabia. Ref -
http://p081.ezboard.com/fhinduunityarchivessectionhinduunitycom.showMessage?topicID=112.topicfficeffice"

Islam came into being about 1372 years ago. It is well known that over 7500 years ago, at the time of the Mahabharat War, Kurus ruled the world. The scions of that family administered the different regions. Prophet Muhammed himself and his family were adherents of Vedic culture. The Encyclopedia Islamia admits as much when it says: "Muhammed's grandfather and uncles were hereditary priests of the Kaba temple which housed 360 idols!"

According to Arab traditions, Muhammad is a title. We do not know what name his parents had given him. We do however know that the central object of worship which survives at the Kaba today is a Shivling. That was allowed to remain there because that was the faceless family deity of Muhammad's family. One of the original names of Lord Shiv is Mahadev (The Great God) therefore it is entirely possible Muhammad came from Mahadev. This appears fairly certain because the Arabs still have a Mahadevi sect. Moreover the title Mehdi of a Muslim chief is also a malpronounciation of the term Mahadeva. According to Sanskrit etymology the term Muhammad implies 'a person of great inspiration' - 'Mahan Madah yasya assau Muhammadah' In a hostile sense it also implies 'a person of a proud and haughty temperament'.

The Qurayshi tribe into which Mohammed was born was particularly devoted to Allah and and the three children of the Moon God. Therefore when Muhammad decided to create his own Divine religion, he took innumerable aspects of the daily Vedic culture that surrounded him and corrupted them to suit his needs. It was with the advent of the Prophet and Islam that the death-knell of the glorious Arab culture was sounded. With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

In my next article, I will elaborate further on the Vedic Heritage of Arabia.

Note: Works of P.N. Oak and Robert A. Morey have been used to compose this article/Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia</ST1:place> - Part 2

In 570 AD, the year of Muhammad's birth, <ST1:place>Arabia</ST1:place> was a thriving, rich and varied Vedic culture. Although monotheism in the forms of Christianity and Judaism were known to the people of Arvasthan, they were undeterred in their uncompromising faith to the religion of their ancestors: Hinduism . Every household had an idol of a Hindu god or goddess. There were hundreds of sacred groves, places of pilgrimage, and temples which were sanctuaries containing images of the entire range of Vedic gods. The temples in addition to being the religious focus of the Arabs, were also the cultural centres of learning. It was the temples that were the venues of literary and poetry competitions, of glorious festivals.

The virtues most highly prized by people of Arvasthan were bravery in battle, patience in misfortune, loyalty to one's tribe, and generosity to the needy and the poor. They proudly upheld the value of tolerance in matters of religious practice and belief. The respect they showed towards other people's religions was fully in keeping with their Vedic spiritual tradition.

The status of women was that of pride and equal respect. How could it be otherwise with a people whose chief deity was the goddess Durga (Alla). Women married men of their choice and were financially independent. They were entrepeneurs, artisans, poets and even warriors! Later on Muhammad would marry Khadija, who was not only a wealthy merchant but also in the position to choose her own husband. This clearly demonstrates the level of freedom women enjoyed in Vedic Arabia. Hind, who was the wife of Muhammad's chief enemy Abu Sufyan, herself participated in the battlefield.

Hind opposed Muhammad tooth and nail. She followed her husband to the battlefield and when Abu Sufyan surrendered lace>Mecca</ST1:place> to Muhammad without a fight she caught hold of him in the marketplace and cried:

"KILL this fat greasy bladder of lard! What a rotten protector of the people"

When Muhammad tried to baptise her & asked her not to commit adultery , She spat out the bitter words:

"A free woman does not commit adultery!"

How proud this woman was of the rights and privileges that her Vedic society had invested to her!

It was Islam that extinguished the light of knowledge in Vedic Arabia. It is ironic that the man who brought about such darkness himself belonged to the Qurayshi Tribe of lace>Mecca</ST1:place>. The Qurayshi were particularly devoted to Allah (Durga) and the famous Shivling of the <ST1:place><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:place>. The fact that the Shivling remains to this day in the Kaaba is solely due to the fact that it happened to be the Qurayshi tribe's faceless Family Deity. As I mentioned before Muhammad's name itself came from Mahadeva, which is another cognate for Lord Shiva. Muhammad's own uncle, Umar-Bin-E-Hassham was a staunch Hindu and fervent devotee of Lord Shiva. He was a renowned poet and wrote many verses in praise of Shiva. One of these has survived on page 235 of Sair-Ul-Okul and reads as follows:


Kafavomal fikra min ulumin Tab asayru
Kaluwan amataul Hawa was Tajakhru
We Tajakhayroba udan Kalalwade-E Liboawa
Walukayanay jatally, hay Yauma Tab asayru
Wa Abalolha ajabu armeeman MAHADEVA
Manojail ilamuddin minhum wa sayattaru
Wa Sahabi Kay-yam feema-Kamil MINDAY Yauman
Wa Yakulum no latabahan foeennak Tawjjaru
Massayaray akhalakan hasanan Kullahum
Najumum aja- at Summa gabul HINDU

which translates as:
The man who may spend his life in sin
and irreligion or waste it in lechery and wrath
If at least he relent and return to
righteousness can he be saved?
If but once he worship Mahadeva with a pure
heart, he will attain the ultimate in spirituality.
Oh Lord Shiva exchange my entire life for but
a day's sojourn in <st1:country-region><ST1:place>India</ST1:place></st1:country-region> where one attains salvation.
But one pilgrimage there secures for one all
merit and company of the truly great.

Muhammad's uncle was one of the resident priests of the Shiv temple known as "Kaaba". This sacred sanctum was decorated in an extremely rich and beautiful fashion. The Kaaba was astronomically oriented to face the winds. The minor axis of the rectangular base of the Kaaba was solistically aligned towards summer sunrise and winter sunset. It contained 360 statues of Vedic deities and was a shrine primarily associated with sun worship. The temple was an architectural representation of an interlocking set of theories covering virtually all creation and comprehending chemistry, physics, cosmology, meteorology and medicine. Each wall or corner of the Kaaba was associated with a specific region of the world. Thus this glorious Hindu temple was made to symbolically represent a microcosm of the universe. The Arabs would face east when praying. This representation of a microcosm demonstrated by the eight directional structure was derived from the Tantric pattern (Refer to Figure 1) of Hinduism. Right at the centre of the Kaaba was the octogonal pedestal of Bramha the creator. Today this very pedestal is called Maqam-E-Ibrahim by the Muslims.





 
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