overlapping surnames

[amritkharb]

I was going through surnames in wiki and I noticed that some of these surnames are also in other jaatis in the same castes and also in other castes. A few I noticed were chouhan or chauhan, verma etc. What are some other surnames that are overlapping?

 

[aryasatyadev]

Bhai Kharab Saab kitne got ginawen.......... yo taaga thada bhar jyaga....... ek salah hai....... wiki me jaa..... or dekh....... ki Acharya jaat bhi howen sain or bengali bhi ar oriya bhi..... ahir jaat bhi howen sain or heer bhi......... or bhi kai sain udey dhonnd le mere bhai

 

[amritkharb]

Bhai Kharab Saab kitne got ginawen.......... yo taaga thada bhar jyaga....... ek salah hai....... wiki me jaa..... or dekh....... ki Acharya jaat bhi howen sain or bengali bhi ar oriya bhi..... ahir jaat bhi howen sain or heer bhi......... or bhi kai sain udey dhonnd le mere bhai

Bro what are the reasons these surnames are coming in different castes. Verma too sunar hone chayieee matlab ke kayastha/from trading community. And chouhans are coming in rajputs also. If yeh surname wale are claiming that they are jats then don't you think some harijans are claiming that their gotra is a jat gotra. Bhai Mein iss liye puzh raha tha kyon ki pizhle saal ke baat hae Madyha pradesh ke home secretary Rajesh Rajora par income tax wallo ke raid pade the. Meine socha ke jat hoga but he is a dalit. I have seen Rajora gotra in wiki. But Rajora is a Dalit, untouchables gotra. That is making me believe people from different castes have come into jat community including the untouchables or Dalits.

 

[amritkharb]

Kisne ne pizhle post ke baad comment naheen karee. Agar rajput, sunar see jattoon mein aaye hue gotra walee apne ko jat kah sakte haen too dalit gotra wale aapne koh jat kyon naheen bana sakte. jaisa ke pizhle post mein likha tha Chouhan = rajput and jat, Verma = sunar, kayastha aur jat, Rajora = dalit and jat.
Koi gotra historian jo iss baat par roshni daal sakta hae. bahut bahut danyawaad. Jai ramji ki.

 

[ajayverma1973]

Kisne ne pizhle post ke baad comment naheen karee. Agar rajput, sunar see jattoon mein aaye hue gotra walee apne ko jat kah sakte haen too dalit gotra wale aapne koh jat kyon naheen bana sakte. jaisa ke pizhle post mein likha tha Chouhan = rajput and jat, Verma = sunar, kayastha aur jat, Rajora = dalit and jat.
Koi gotra historian jo iss baat par roshni daal sakta hae. bahut bahut danyawaad. Jai ramji ki.

Mr. Amrit, Is bat par roshni dalne se pehle kuchh sawalon ke jawab chahiye aap se.

1. How old are you?
2. From where u belong?
3. What is your educational as well as professional qualification?
4. Are u attached with any jat organisation or samity?
5. Since when you are member of Jaltand?
6. Do you really seek information or chidiyon me dale maran ki koshish kar rahe ho, I mean trying to make other members uncomfortable or trying to be over smart?

 

[amritkharb]

Mr. Amrit, Is bat par roshni dalne se pehle kuchh sawalon ke jawab chahiye aap se.

1. How old are you?
2. From where u belong?
3. What is your educational as well as professional qualification?
4. Are u attached with any jat organisation or samity?
5. Since when you are member of Jaltand?
6. Do you really seek information or chidiyon me dale maran ki koshish kar rahe ho, I mean trying to make other members uncomfortable or trying to be over smart?

I have a Verma living next door to me and he is a kayasth. Mein aur bhi kai verma ko janataa tha and unmeein se ek bhi jat naheen hae tha. Iska kya karaan hae. Aapp jayadaa janate hogeen. Sachin Balyan Sir also said that Verma's are Sunars and not jats.

aap ko yeh personally naheen lena chayee. My questions are out of natural curiousity and legitimate. koi naraaj hone ke zarrrorat naheen hae aapko isliyee.

Koi naheen koi karan hongeen ke yeh gotra rajput, sunar, Dalit caste mein payee jaate haeen. Like chouhan found in rajput, verma found in Sunar(kayasth) and rajora are dalits in MP like rajesh rajora jee dalit haeen. There must have been intercaste migration taken place. mere soch mein aisa thabi ho sakta hae when people who are migrating to other castes are benefitting from this.

mere soch mein inter caste migration economic reasons ke wajayee see ho sakte hae. aur bhi karaan ho sakte haeen. Hamare jat historian iss baree mein kuch kehna chayeen gee kya. Inke liye aacha subject hae yeh.
bahut bahut danyawaad. Jai ramji ki.

 

[sjakhars]

Overlapping Surnames/Gotras

I would like to revive this thread extending it to gotras also. I think Mr. Amit has some good reasons to start with. I have been thinking on the same lines since long time. I have seen many surnames/gotras in other castes which are also in Jats. It does not include only "Verma" but "Chauhan", "Katarya/Katraiya/Kataria and many others.
What made this overlapping? Why we have similar surnames/gotras in different catses? Are these surnames/gotras of Jat's and adopted by other castes or vice versa?
I think Jat Historians can enlighten us on this issue.

I was going through surnames in wiki and I noticed that some of these surnames are also in other jaatis in the same castes and also in other castes. A few I noticed were chouhan or chauhan, verma etc. What are some other surnames that are overlapping?

 

[ravichaudhary]

There are no clear answers as to how the various Goths arise or for that matter why they overlap.

From what I have been able to see-

Goths start in various ways:

1) Some ancestor starts a Goth from his name.
2) Someone else starts a new Goth, which becomes a sub Goth
3) Some take it from a place- like Nehra from the Nehr hills in Rajasthan.


Then there are other common terms which are title, and are not indicative of the person’s Goth.

Such terms are Chaudhary, and Verma.

Chaudhary meant head of the village or group of villages. Yet every Jat is a Chaudhary, whether head of the village or not.

Verma meant defender

Vardhan also means the same.

People use these titles and in time they become surnames, but they are not clan names or Goths.
We also have Gupt or Gupta. This also means defender. This surname is commonly found in banias or kayasths today. However it was the suffix used by the Maur(ya) dynasty, and also the 2nd Gupta or Dharan dynasty, who we know as Jats.

A change of profession, started a schism, which led to a new caste- kayasths.

The Goths will overlap.

In earlier time we have three main identities Jat, Gujar, Ahir, and as groups of families joined the groups they took on the group identity, thus Jat clans who joined the Gujars came to be known as Gujars.

The same thing has happened when the Rajput identity started to arise; some families took on the identity and became rajputs, and took their Goths with them.

That is one reason for the overlap.

In our caste ridden society- many of the lower castes took on the Goths of the Jajmans, as they served these Jajmans. In time the Goth took hold.
Profession also had something to do with this.

The historian Joon thinks that those Jats who took to leather work, in times became ostracized from those families who looked down upon them. That can be another explanation for the Goth overlapping.


These are just some thought.

More input is welcome.


Ravi Chaudhary

 

[lrburdak]

Raviji has explained the basis of common surnames in various castes.

We have tried to explain this subject in an article on JL Wiki. Members may read it here:

http://www.jatland.com/home/Jat_Clan_System

Panini has defined gotra in his grammar astadhyayi in sanskrit as under-

उपत्यं प्रौत्रं प्रभृति गोत्रम upatyam prautram prabhriti gotram

Translation – Gotra is the name of group of descents, leaving son, including grandsons and great grandsons.

Jat people Gotras have initially been created in the name of a person, a place or some historical incidence. When in a generation a great person takes birth all the previous titles of this generation are included in the name of this great person and a new gotra starts in his name. Like caste does not change, gotras and vanshas also do not change. There can be more than one gotra in a vansha but there can not be more than one vansha in a gotra. For example Chauhan vansha has 116 gotras included in it.

A clan gains political ascendancy, and other clans who support the ascendant clan, become part of a political confederacy. It was in this sense that the confederacies of Mor, Sakan, Kasuan, Oujar, Parmar, Chauhan, Rathors, etc. were formed. This does not mean that the members of the particular confederacy headed by a particular clan, were descendants or branches of the later ascendant clan. Therefore, in effect, the presence of a gotra in two castes only shows that the particular Jat clans, among others, were supporters of the Tomar or Chauhan, or Bhatti or Parmar or Gujar royal families when these later formed their kingdoms. It is on account of this factor that a particular clan is seen as part of more than one ascendant clan and "the double ancestry". (See - http://www.jatland.com/home/Jats_the_Ancient_Rulers_(A_clan_study)/Appendices/Appendix_I)

We have categorized Gotras on following basis


* Based on system of worship

* Nagavanshi Jat clans - These are based on animals, trees, birds, kings etc.

* Based on persons

* Based on places or natural features

* Based on languages

* Based on titles

* Based on professions

If a gotra was started by a person and this gotra is found in different castes it is very likely that they had a common epi-person. Branching of the family trees takes place over a period due to various reasons.

Regards,

 

[pdpbeniwal]

Mr. Amrit, Is bat par roshni dalne se pehle kuchh sawalon ke jawab chahiye aap se.

1. How old are you?
2. From where u belong?
3. What is your educational as well as professional qualification?
4. Are u attached with any jat organisation or samity?
5. Since when you are member of Jaltand?
6. Do you really seek information or chidiyon me dale maran ki koshish kar rahe ho, I mean trying to make other members uncomfortable or trying to be over smart?

Ek Masoom Sawal poochne ki ye saja....Bahut Nainsaafi hai...wo bhi itne bold and colored letters mein...
The Question entitled in the thread is highly genuine.I want to ask you why do you need all these answers.If you don't have any info abt the discussion then it's not a problem albeit we expect you to enlighten us on the subject.You seem to be only uncomfortable here.And by the way how does one become oversmart by putting such kinds of inquires???

 

[pdpbeniwal]

Raviji has explained the basis of common surnames in various castes.

We have tried to explain this subject in an article on JL Wiki. Members may read it here:

http://www.jatland.com/home/Jat_Clan_System

Panini has defined gotra in his grammar astadhyayi in sanskrit as under-

उपत्यं प्रौत्रं प्रभृति गोत्रम upatyam prautram prabhriti gotram

Translation – Gotra is the name of group of descents, leaving son, including grandsons and great grandsons.

Jat people Gotras have initially been created in the name of a person, a place or some historical incidence. When in a generation a great person takes birth all the previous titles of this generation are included in the name of this great person and a new gotra starts in his name. Like caste does not change, gotras and vanshas also do not change. There can be more than one gotra in a vansha but there can not be more than one vansha in a gotra. For example Chauhan vansha has 116 gotras included in it.

A clan gains political ascendancy, and other clans who support the ascendant clan, become part of a political confederacy. It was in this sense that the confederacies of Mor, Sakan, Kasuan, Oujar, Parmar, Chauhan, Rathors, etc. were formed. This does not mean that the members of the particular confederacy headed by a particular clan, were descendants or branches of the later ascendant clan. Therefore, in effect, the presence of a gotra in two castes only shows that the particular Jat clans, among others, were supporters of the Tomar or Chauhan, or Bhatti or Parmar or Gujar royal families when these later formed their kingdoms. It is on account of this factor that a particular clan is seen as part of more than one ascendant clan and "the double ancestry". (See - http://www.jatland.com/home/Jats_the_Ancient_Rulers_(A_clan_study)/Appendices/Appendix_I)

We have categorized Gotras on following basis


* Based on system of worship

* Nagavanshi Jat clans - These are based on animals, trees, birds, kings etc.

* Based on persons

* Based on places or natural features

* Based on languages

* Based on titles

* Based on professions

If a gotra was started by a person and this gotra is found in different castes it is very likely that they had a common epi-person. Branching of the family trees takes place over a period due to various reasons.

Regards,

Burdak Ji,Thank you very much for the info.

 

[amritkharb]

From Iburdak post.
"If a gotra was started by a person and this gotra is found in different castes it is very likely that they had a common epi-person. Branching of the family trees takes place over a period due to various reasons."

This Rajora gotra is found in Dalits/Shudras in MP. Aap official Ambedkar web site par ja sakte haeen aur check that our former Home secretary Mr. Rajesh Rajora is mentioned there as a Dalit/shudra.
Logically mein sochta hoon ke people from lower castes would move to upper castes.
Aur people can move to little bit lower castes then their former castes.
Par aisa believe karna difficult hae ke people would move from Jat caste to the lowest caste in hindu society.
Aap logoon ka khyaa khayal hae?
Mein aur aisa bhi sochta hoon ki a few gotras might change geographical locations to "get new caste identity established successfully and cut themselves off from their former caste identity". aap vigyani log kya sochte haeen is bare mein?

 

[hemanthooda]

Ravi ji,

Very informative post......thanks for putting light on such a complex topic..

regards
Hemant Hooda

There are no clear answers as to how the various Goths arise or for that matter why they overlap.

From what I have been able to see-

Goths start in various ways:

1) Some ancestor starts a Goth from his name.
2) Someone else starts a new Goth, which becomes a sub Goth
3) Some take it from a place- like Nehra from the Nehr hills in Rajasthan.


Then there are other common terms which are title, and are not indicative of the person’s Goth.

Such terms are Chaudhary, and Verma.

Chaudhary meant head of the village or group of villages. Yet every Jat is a Chaudhary, whether head of the village or not.

Verma meant defender

Vardhan also means the same.

People use these titles and in time they become surnames, but they are not clan names or Goths.
We also have Gupt or Gupta. This also means defender. This surname is commonly found in banias or kayasths today. However it was the suffix used by the Maur(ya) dynasty, and also the 2nd Gupta or Dharan dynasty, who we know as Jats.

A change of profession, started a schism, which led to a new caste- kayasths.

The Goths will overlap.

In earlier time we have three main identities Jat, Gujar, Ahir, and as groups of families joined the groups they took on the group identity, thus Jat clans who joined the Gujars came to be known as Gujars.

The same thing has happened when the Rajput identity started to arise; some families took on the identity and became rajputs, and took their Goths with them.

That is one reason for the overlap.

In our caste ridden society- many of the lower castes took on the Goths of the Jajmans, as they served these Jajmans. In time the Goth took hold.
Profession also had something to do with this.

The historian Joon thinks that those Jats who took to leather work, in times became ostracized from those families who looked down upon them. That can be another explanation for the Goth overlapping.


These are just some thought.

More input is welcome.


Ravi Chaudhary

 

[gsb]

Good information. unfortunately many lower castes(SCs) in a village are writting Jat gotr of that village to their names and I think we should be careful while interacting with them. To know ones reality is by knowing his/her grandfather/ancestral village. This is more so important in matrimonial matter. For example in Delhi some of SCs are writting Beniwal as their gotr because pitampura village(Rohini) is of Beniwal jats.

 

[raka]

mere fathersaab apne naam ke aage jat lagate hain , maine puchha jat likhan ki k jarurat pad gai naam k aage. unhone bataya ke ek baar unke office me apne gaon ka hi ek ladka job ke liye aa gaya usne apna naam satish sangwan likha hua tha . sangwan likha dekhkar uska gaon puchha to wo bola ki mankawas s . pitaaji bole m padosi gaon charkhi ka su. wo itifaaqan mere father ko by face nahi janta tha . usse puchha kiska s mankawas me . usne sahi naam bataya apne pita ka ak flaane Dr. ka chhora su. father saab bole ki wo to dhanko me s . wo bolya haanji . fathersaab ne bataya ki m bhi mankawas ka su. usse puchha ki yo sangwan kyu likh rakhya s. wo bichara dhoola hogya , bolya tau ji galti ho gai , yo sangwan nyu likh rakhya s ke sehar me naukri mil ja s harijan bataye ta kaam na mile tawla sa. dekhan m wo chhora jata berga s.
to bhai kai dusri jaatiyo me hamare se milte julte gottar nyu bhi suru ho re s.
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[rohitmalik8]

Same thing

mere fathersaab apne naam ke aage jat lagate hain , maine puchha jat likhan ki k jarurat pad gai naam k aage. unhone bataya ke ek baar unke office me apne gaon ka hi ek ladka job ke liye aa gaya usne apna naam satish sangwan likha hua tha . sangwan likha dekhkar uska gaon puchha to wo bola ki mankawas s . pitaaji bole m padosi gaon charkhi ka su. wo itifaaqan mere father ko by face nahi janta tha . usse puchha kiska s mankawas me . usne sahi naam bataya apne pita ka ak flaane Dr. ka chhora su. father saab bole ki wo to dhanko me s . wo bolya haanji . fathersaab ne bataya ki m bhi mankawas ka su. usse puchha ki yo sangwan kyu likh rakhya s. wo bichara dhoola hogya , bolya tau ji galti ho gai , yo sangwan nyu likh rakhya s ke sehar me naukri mil ja s harijan bataye ta kaam na mile tawla sa. dekhan m wo chhora jata berga s.
to bhai kai dusri jaatiyo me hamare se milte julte gottar nyu bhi suru ho re s.
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Sahi kaha Rakesh ji!!! The same thing happened to my mother also (NEARLY 10 YEARS BACK). My other is a teacher. So 1 day she was checking all the forms which go to Board (10th class). A boy wrote his name as ***** Malik. My ma asked out of curosity that which village he belongs to? At that he didnt said anything. She asked what their parents do? So he told that his father is a sweeper! My ma asked him to bring his mother to school. When his mother came she told that Bahan Ji Humne Malik to aise hi laga liya taki ladke ko aage pareshanni na ho!! Vaise to hum bhangi hai!!! My mother was so furious on hearing this!!! She immediately asked them to use their own surname and after that he wrote Kumar in front of him!!!!

Hearing this I felt so good about being a Jaat. Other people really wants to inmate us!!!!

 

[sjakhars]

Mathur

I found "Mathur" in Jatland wiki Jat gotra list. I have seen a member too today But what I have seen in my area is, "Mathurs" are a section of Brahmins, I think "Kayastha". They have been using this for long time I guess. How could this gotra included in out gotra list. I have seen some "Mathurs" in my neighborhood having some land and also doing agri. work too.
Does it mean that these people were Jats before and then changed to be "Kayasthas"?

In fact this overlapping of surnames/gotra makes a lot of trouble and its hard to identify with name that a person is Jat or not.

 

[cooljat]

Bhaisaab,

"Mathur" is a valid gotra. I have one Jat friend from Delhi, who's gotra is Mathur. Even I was taken by surprise to hear that Mathur is also a Jat gotra. But he said its a comparatively very small gotra and in Hindi it pronounced as "माथर" not "माथुर" !

Even there're couple of more gotra I come across which look similar to kayasth gotra like Kothari and Singhal.

Rest senior historian can shed more light on it.

Cheers!

I found "Mathur" in Jatland wiki Jat gotra list. I have seen a member too today But what I have seen in my area is, "Mathurs" are a section of Brahmins, I think "Kayastha". They have been using this for long time I guess. How could this gotra included in out gotra list. I have seen some "Mathurs" in my neighborhood having some land and also doing agri. work too.
Does it mean that these people were Jats before and then changed to be "Kayasthas"?

In fact this overlapping of surnames/gotra makes a lot of trouble and its hard to identify with name that a person is Jat or not.

 

[sjakhars]

Mathar, Mathur, Matharu..

Thanks Jite.
I am not denying/suspecting anyone's identity as a Jat here. I wrote what I have seen for years.
If you look at the gotra list here http://www.jatland.com/home/Gotras/M than you will come to know there are "Mathur", "Mathar", "Mathuria" and many more.

In Hindi its like माथुर, माथर, माठर.

I request Historians to shed some light on this.

 

[ravichaudhary]

Thanks Jite.
I am not denying/suspecting anyone's identity as a Jat here. I wrote what I have seen for years.
If you look at the gotra list here http://www.jatland.com/home/Gotras/M than you will come to know there are "Mathur", "Mathar", "Mathuria" and many more.

In Hindi its like माथुर, माथर, माठर.

I request Historians to shed some light on this.

The name is found in Jats, Brahmins, and Kayasths.

That is not unusual and the more we get to know about our community history, we will find more commanilities.

We find for example Dharan, a historically important goth in Agarwalas, and Jats.


The variance is in pronunciation:

Matthar, old Prakrit( old common languahe)

Maathar, soft 'th' sound' in the sanskritized form.

Variance is now ' Mathur'.

A number of Jats write it as 'mathur', but pronounce it as "Matthar' hard T sound

Others may also shed some light


Ravi Chaudhary