PM thanks British for good governance...

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ramksehrawat

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A few days back opposition leader described Jinnah as a secular leader. Now the PM, while accepting honorary degree at Oxford, has thanked British for good governance of India describing it as a blessing and has attributed everything good which India today has including free press to them. Is history being re-written ? Isn't it a direct insult to our freedom fighters ?
 
Sehrawat Ji,

Our PM has said many things apart from what you have pointed out in your post. He also said that it was India who started the collapse of an empire over which sun never set. He was candid in accepting what British did well for India without ridiculing them for the bad things done.

There is no doubt that British did many good things for India irrespective of their ultimate motive. Think for a moment if India were still under Mughals. I am sure we would not have been any better than countries like Afghanistan. Collective oppostion of Indians to British helped India integrate into what we are today. We also got islands like Andaman Nicobar.

RK^2
 
rkumar said:
Sehrawat Ji,

Our PM has said many things apart from what you have pointed out in your post. He also said that it was India who started the collapse of an empire over which sun never set. He was candid in accepting what British did well for India without ridiculing them for the bad things done.

There is no doubt that British did many good things for India irrespective of their ultimate motive. Think for a moment if India were still under Mughals. I am sure we would not have been any better than countries like Afghanistan. Collective oppostion of Indians to British helped India integrate into what we are today. We also got islands like Andaman Nicobar.

RK^2
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Well said uncleji. There were many good things that we learnt from them. So I don't think that it was the insult of our freedom fighter.
 
rkumar said:
Think for a moment if India were still under Mughals. I am sure we would not have been any better than countries like Afghanistan. RK^2
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Very correct!

Late Moghals were just 'Aayyash'...leisure loving...
Mughals ruled India for about 3 centuries...and British for about the same duration...but u can see who helped building better infrastructure. Mughals built only Qilas, Tombs, Makbaras, Gardens...nothing else. Whereas, India constitution is British legacy. Ambedkar did a very intelligent copy/paste work. Military structure is inherited from their. That's another thing that we Indians always find a loophole in any system and there breeds curruption! And most importantly English language which has put India in top 5 economies, comes from UK.

One has to accept that English people, means from UK, they were/are very good in management. They tried to teach the same to Indians but it's our fault that we are not good learners. We must improve!! I am sure if we can better our polity, we are close to being a super power.

Navin
 
A few words

Respected members,

I am not competant enough to participate but what i have learnt and what a few elders are suggesting me about British Empire in India is not very rosey.Yes their contribution in the field of infrastructure sector, architect and trade is worth mentioning but it did not happen because they wanted to guide or teach us but it happened because they wanted to spread their wings to rule the world. Only word they used for Indians in those days was "DOG". So atleast i will not sing any song for their work done, which i think was not by intent but by default.How can we forget jaliyanwala bagh and General Daier? We ought to talk to the people who suffered the agony.But yes they were better than Moghuls.


due respect to all.
 
Very Correct. I am fully agreed.

Regards
Jitender

dhruvdahiya said:
Respected members,

I am not competant enough to participate but what i have learnt and what a few elders are suggesting me about British Empire in India is not very rosey.Yes their contribution in the field of infrastructure sector, architect and trade is worth mentioning but it did not happen because they wanted to guide or teach us but it happened because they wanted to spread their wings to rule the world. Only word they used for Indians in those days was "DOG". So atleast i will not sing any song for their work done, which i think was not by intent but by default.How can we forget jaliyanwala bagh and General Daier? We ought to talk to the people who suffered the agony.But yes they were better than Moghuls.


due respect to all.
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Nepal and Afghanistan were never paret of India. What stopped them from becoming developed nations? Then there are Mongols who invaded and ruled large parts of the world. Is Mongolia a developed nation as it was never under British or anyone else.

Now coming to bad things of British. Not that I justify them, but our own post 1947 politicians have not been better on any account;

1. If British gave Jaliaanwala bagh, VP Singh gave shootings during Mondal Commission

2. British impresioned our freedom fighters and so was done on a mass scale by Mrs Gandhi during emergency.

Let us not forget that British rested power from Mughal and other kings who were exploiting masses. Would indians have fought and got freedom from kings and Mughals? Let us not be under any illusions that the fate of common man in India under Kings and Mughals would have been nothing more than a slave...

RK^2
 
Oh dear. I can visualise Iraqis thanking Yankis a few years from now for teaching them English !!! I think you are right, but for them we wouldn't have a Mahatma Gandhi to preach non-violence, Nehrus and Patels would have been nobody and the question of Jinnah being secular or not would not have arisen !!! Thanks our imperial lords !!! By the way our PM also said that in 1700 (during Moghul period when British were just on the horizon) India's share of world income was more than 22% (compared to whole of Europe's 23%) whereas in 1952 it was 3.2%. That way Moghuls should be better rulers ? Shouldn't we say Allh hu Akbar ? What a justification. We are sorry Gandhiji, Nehruji, Patelji, for all your paid picnic in various jails and Chandrashekhar Azad, Bhagat Singh Azad et al, you were nothing but misguided youth. You all conspired to deprive us of such good administrators. But for you our infrastructure would have been world class. Thanks my imperial lords because of you we are nearing to becoming super power and Bangladesh, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Burma are closely following us (after all they too were blessed by you).
 
It would be great if you can post the original speech/news article on which this thread is based.

and I also think this argument that British gave India the infrastructure and so forth is not correct. Mangolia went nowhere but US did, Japan did. Who know in those 300 years, India could have gone ANYWHERE.

Modern polticle correctness require Britain to be embarassed about it's imperelist past and not the third world. Thanking Britishers for building Indian Railways while otherwise treating them as slave, that too by Indian prime minister is very stupid. Although he was not making a representative speech, but I think he needs to be more careful.

Did they do all these good things thinking that 100 years from now Indian people would be thanking US? no? If by a matter of chance, ( THE so called freedom struggle?) it turned out to be good (idea must have been to tap out of India for next thousand years). THEN WHY THEY DESERVE A THANKS.

The queen doen't even want to say sorry for Jaila Wala. But Indian should be thankful for the railroad?
 
I believe like most political questions, we should not have an absolute answer for this question. There were both cons and pros to the British raj at the same time. I've listed biggest con and pro in my judgement:

Con:
Dignity loss: No matter how was the rule, no man would like to ruled by bunch of foreigners; especially when foreigners didn't even see them as equal.

Pro:
Administrative unity & English. Most of us participating in this thread are where we are today because we know English better than most of the world.

Imagine Mughals continuing to rule India propagating Urdu and Persian!!
 
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There was some thing terribly wrong with we Indians that first Muslims came and then British. Our own Hindu rulers during British period did nothing extraordinary to lift the common man. Simple question is;

1. Why Prithvi Raj did not capture and kill Mohamed Ghauri? Who stopped him?
2. When cats fight, monkeys take the advantage. In India we had kingdoms almost every 50 km when East India Company started taking advantage. Outsiders took advantage because we had impotent rulers running the affairs of the state. None of these rulers trusted each other. Most of these rulers sided with British during 1857 in spite of that fact that British were dictating them as well.

One has to analyse things based upon what was happening in India when British started intervening. Was there any likelihood of all those kings coming onto grips with Indian problems and making it into a great nation?? Late Mughal kings who could not pay salary of their soldiers, could they lift India into a world power? Its not question of justifying British occupation of India. Main question is; could that have been avoided and how, knowing what sort of rulers we had at that time.

Fall of India started well in time of Jahangir who was not taking enough interest in the affairs of Kingdom. It’s well known that Jahangir used to hire British ships for Mecca pilgrimage. Why Jahangir did not foresee the intentions of British?

There are many whys to which one can have 100s of probably answers. And finally, now we are independent, free everything. Are we navigating India in the right direction even now? Are we fast enough to catch up with rest of the world? Who is stopping us now? Why that we have interstate water disputes and then these communist singing different tunes..


RK^2
 
deepender said:
I believe like most political questions, we should not have an absolute answer for this question. There were both cons and pros to the British raj at the same time. I've listed biggest con and pro in my judgement:

Con:
Dignity loss: No matter how was the rule, no man would like to ruled by bunch of foreigners; especially when foreigners didn't even see them as equal.

Pro:
Administrative unity & English. Most of us participating in this thread are where we are today because we know English better than most of the world.

Imagine Mughals continuing to rule India propagating Urdu and Persian!!
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Deepender ! I doubt if common man had any dignity even under Indian hindu or Muslim rulers. On the top of that we had this caste system.

However, the most pertinent question is; have we learned from our past?

RK^2
 
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What if ...?

I would appreciate anyone with access to the text of the entire speech to post it on Jatland. I do not think it is fair to comment on it without knowing the complete text and the context of the speech.

If we look at the roughly 5000 years of human civilization, India has been the wealthiest country in the world for all but last 250 years or so. But we all know that it is meaningless to compare the periods before and after the industrial revolution.

The fact remains that for the first 4750 years or so it was possible for a country to be wealthy without having democratic institutions but it is not possible today. China may seem to be on the upward path but it is doubtful the momentum can be sustained without democratization. The collapse of Soviet Union is strong enough evidence in this regard.

The British were very cruel rulers just like the Muslims, Rajputs and others. The infrastructure (mainly railroad and telegraph) they developed in India was crucial to their survival in 1857. But we can not undo the past. All we can do is to utilize what we got from the British (democratic institutions and the English language) and move ahead in the global society. Remember Japan lost hundreds of thousands of its citizens in the cruelest way (atomic bombs) but came back to defeat America and its allies in the economic war that followed. We can do the same.
 
birbal said:
I would appreciate anyone with access to the text of the entire speech to post it on Jatland. I do not think it is fair to comment on it without knowing the complete text and the context of the speech.

If we look at the roughly 5000 years of human civilization, India has been the wealthiest country in the world for all but last 250 years or so. But we all know that it is meaningless to compare the periods before and after the industrial revolution.

The fact remains that for the first 4750 years or so it was possible for a country to be wealthy without having democratic institutions but it is not possible today. China may seem to be on the upward path but it is doubtful the momentum can be sustained without democratization. The collapse of Soviet Union is strong enough evidence in this regard.

The British were very cruel rulers just like the Muslims, Rajputs and others. The infrastructure (mainly railroad and telegraph) they developed in India was crucial to their survival in 1857. But we can not undo the past. All we can do is to utilize what we got from the British (democratic institutions and the English language) and move ahead in the global society. Remember Japan lost hundreds of thousands of its citizens in the cruelest way (atomic bombs) but came back to defeat America and its allies in the economic war that followed. We can do the same.
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Here is the link sir;

http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/10/stories/2005071002301000.htm

RK^2
 
ramksehrawat said:
Oh dear. I can visualise Iraqis thanking Yankis a few years from now for teaching them English !!! I think you are right, but for them we wouldn't have a Mahatma Gandhi to preach non-violence, Nehrus and Patels would have been nobody and the question of Jinnah being secular or not would not have arisen !!! Thanks our imperial lords !!! By the way our PM also said that in 1700 (during Moghul period when British were just on the horizon) India's share of world income was more than 22% (compared to whole of Europe's 23%) whereas in 1952 it was 3.2%. That way Moghuls should be better rulers ? Shouldn't we say Allh hu Akbar ? What a justification. We are sorry Gandhiji, Nehruji, Patelji, for all your paid picnic in various jails and Chandrashekhar Azad, Bhagat Singh Azad et al, you were nothing but misguided youth. You all conspired to deprive us of such good administrators. But for you our infrastructure would have been world class. Thanks my imperial lords because of you we are nearing to becoming super power and Bangladesh, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Burma are closely following us (after all they too were blessed by you).
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Sehrawat Sahab
I think you don't want to face the reality. What ever u say, India was doomed to be ruled by some or the other when Britishers came here. Outsiders never attack when u r strong, they attack when u r weak. And when Britishers came to India, it didn't take them long to see the factions in India fighting with each other. Even there were no strong Hindu rulers who can throw English and Mughals out. That's why they ruled us! And that's why we allowed them to rule us.

Did u ever wonder why US attacked Iraq and Afgahan...why not India..it's beacuse that US was stronger and knows that these countries have nothing to fight against them. India, ofcourse, can pose a bigger threat to him. But, with the passage of time, when Iraqis and Afghans will start posing a bigger threat to US forces, they will leave. Aisa hee kuch India mein hua thaa. When Indians started to unite and become stronger, Britishers left us. They knew, it's not their country...they will have to leave...sometime or the other..and they left leaving India in dire straits...

By giving some credit to Britishers, I am not undermining the sacrifices by our freedom fighters but it's just a matter of comparison..who was better? Mughals or British...I think everyone will say British. You can organize a poll on that topic. Ofcourse freedom is the best thing but an evaluation of the past can be a good thing sometimes. There comes my previous views about infrastructure.

Now take freedom, as you can feel now that we are living in a free society and being ruled by Laloos, Chotalas, Mulayams. Do you feel urself a previlged Indian citizen? The toughest question for me is "whom to vote" when I am in a polling booth. And it's never answered. We have thrown out British but we can't throw out these 'keede'...And that's reality.

It's better we change now...As per my personal thinking, either we need a clean democracy or another china. If a guy is pissing in the corner of the road, there are 2 solutions:
- Either he realizes himself that he's doing worng and retracts
- OR a policeman will hit him hard on his back with Danda...then he retracts

It's a choice we have to make. I think if the situation continues to be the same for another 1-2 decades, I'll support China...And then u'll also give some +ive points to british.

Navin
 
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birbal said:
I would appreciate anyone with access to the text of the entire speech to post it on Jatland. I do not think it is fair to comment on it without knowing the complete text and the context of the speech.

If we look at the roughly 5000 years of human civilization, India has been the wealthiest country in the world for all but last 250 years or so. But we all know that it is meaningless to compare the periods before and after the industrial revolution.

The fact remains that for the first 4750 years or so it was possible for a country to be wealthy without having democratic institutions but it is not possible today. China may seem to be on the upward path but it is doubtful the momentum can be sustained without democratization. The collapse of Soviet Union is strong enough evidence in this regard.

The British were very cruel rulers just like the Muslims, Rajputs and others. The infrastructure (mainly railroad and telegraph) they developed in India was crucial to their survival in 1857. But we can not undo the past. All we can do is to utilize what we got from the British (democratic institutions and the English language) and move ahead in the global society. Remember Japan lost hundreds of thousands of its citizens in the cruelest way (atomic bombs) but came back to defeat America and its allies in the economic war that followed. We can do the same.
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We can't blame anyone else for those 250 years...Britishers ruled us because we allowed them...United we stand...divided we fall..it happened in reality in India.
Infrastructure is just a launching pad for us to show the world where we stand but we'll have to work for that. We need to get rid of evils from work and society.

Navin
 
rkumar said:
Here is the link sir;

http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/10/stories/2005071002301000.htm

RK^2
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Thank you very much Rajndraji. After reading the article I find nothing objectionable in the speech. Let us look at the portion of speech referring to the controversy raised here.

"... Consider the fact that an important slogan of India's struggle for freedom was that "self Government is more precious than Good Government." That, of course, is the essence of democracy. But the slogan suggests that even at the height of our campaign for freedom from colonial rule, we did not entirely reject the British claim to good governance. We merely asserted our natural right to self-governance."

I see the Prime Minister has in no way condoned any British wrongdoing. What is wrong in speaking about the elements of fair play prevalent in the British system? In support of the British system let me quote from the famous speech in the British House of Commons by Edmond Burke in 1788 charging Warren Hastings with high crimes and misdemeanors in British India.

"... I impeach him in the name of English nation whose ancient honour he has sullied. I impeach him on the name of the people of India whose rights he has trodden under foot, and whose country he has turned into a desert. Lastly, in the name of human nature itself, in the name of both sexes, in the name of every age, in the name of every rank, I impeach the common enemy and oppressor of all."

In a light hearted fashion I think the appropriate way to look at such issues is best guided by the song from Raj Kapoor's movie Shree 420, Mud mud ke na dekh, mud mud ke, Mausam ke saath muskraa ke dekhe, naino se nain mila ke dekhe, Duniya usiki hai jo aage dekhe, Duniya ke sath jo badalta jaye, jo iske dhanche mein hi dhalta jaye, duniya usiki hai jo chalta jaye.
 
True.. Nothing objectionable in the speech. I think the occasion was grandiose to deserve touching a little bit on the that sort of history.

I was at oxford for a day one a half year back. It's a wonderful place. Very phelosophical, and different from a typical university in say in US. It's big achievement for Dr. Manmohan Singh.
 
great speech

The speech and the fact that India has such a great Prime Minister is very heartening and promising.
 
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