post your comments here..almost all are anti khap

A

anilphogat

New member
TOI as usual...FO....read this article on Times of India ..I am not allowed to post link here other wise i will paste it.

"Khaps meet to decide action against Aamir Khan"

please read comments and if possible write in favour of our community and khaps..

Thanks and Regards..
 
Could I ask a few questions here? I understand its unfair to categorize Khaps as Taliban-like and primitive. After all, a panchayat is one of the building blocks of administration. I think the problem arises when Khaps seek to preserve a way of life that is inconsistent with changing realities. I will post two points here and would welcome comments.

1. No Khap has ever passed a death sentence. This is indeed true. Till date there is no report, information or media coverage of a Khap panchayat having passed a resolution to condemn somebody to death. But there are irrefutable reports of Khaps passing excommunication judgements on couples/people who have broken certain rules like same-gotra marriage. I think these sort of sentences aggravate the problem rather than solving it. Due to societal pressures in a rural setting, the parents of the girl/boy are already ashamed at their children having violated khap rules. But the excommunication etc sentences worsen situation further. The parents probably feel humiliated publicly and take it out on their kids to avenge their honor. Cant we find a way where the Khaps can pass constructive judgements and help in reducing the shame/guilt of the families rather than pushing them towards violence?

2. Same gotra marriage. I know this is a controversial topic. Even in my community Jatt Sikhs, at least two gotras are generally forbidden - your own and your mother's matrilineal gotra. But nowadays I have seen love marriages happening between people of the same gotra. But this is only restricted to bigger gotras like Sidhu, Gill etc. The reason being that these are gotras with probably thousands of people and if there is no direct link, then it is not seen as a problem. Taking the example of Sidhu gotra, they are spread all over the Malwa region, from Abohar in the west, to Patiala in the east. Its only probable that these families branched off hundreds of years ago and hence have mixed with other gotras in the meantime. This reduced the genetic similarity. But my question is that since Jatts are endogamous, wouldnt almost all gotras be related to each other? So where do we draw the line?
 
Hi Swaich, every community has its own merits and demerits and culture that gives them a unique identity. We should work hard to improve it no doubt about this.

My concern here is to mark offensive if some one really write negative about KHAP and JATS...and reply them hard by giving facts..
some comments are like khap = taliban etc..and jats are illiterate,bad etc.. .

Amir khan muslims ke baare main kuch kyun nahi bolta..i am waiting when he starts talking about muslim rules and fatwa/burka/4 shaadi/etc etc system..

We should be ready for the cyber war when we protest for our reservation ..at time also ..some people will target jat community(specially OBC reserved class).

Thanks
 
anilphogat said:
Hi Swaich, every community has its own merits and demerits and culture that gives them a unique identity. We should work hard to improve it no doubt about this.

My concern here is to mark offensive if some one really write negative about KHAP and JATS...and reply them hard by giving facts..
some comments are like khap = taliban etc..and jats are illiterate,bad etc.. .

Amir khan muslims ke baare main kuch kyun nahi bolta..i am waiting when he starts talking about muslim rules and fatwa/burka/4 shaadi/etc etc system..

We should be ready for the cyber war when we protest for our reservation ..at time also ..some people will target jat community(specially OBC reserved class).

Thanks
Click to expand...

Bhai, I agree with you. No community is perfect. Every community has its positives and negatives.

But do you think raising doubts on Amir's intentions is the most appropriate response? Lets leave Amir Khan's show and his intentions aside. Still so many question about Khaps dont go away. In the same show we had a person, a Jat himself who pointed out various judgements by Khaps which led to murders and extreme pain for people.

Amir Khan is a show man. Doing public good isnt the sole purpose of the show; it is to make money. But instead of pointing fingers at him or the fault of Muslim community to which he belongs, one cant hide one's own faults. The overwhelming response from the Jatt community is to oppose the show but no one is saying if Khap decisions and criteria need to be re-evaluated. There is no dissenting voice coming out to say that "yes, Khaps are at fault sometimes".

So while its wrong to demonize one community, its also wrong to get defensive and stop evaluating one's own community.
 
swaich said:
Could I ask a few questions here? I understand its unfair to categorize Khaps as Taliban-like and primitive. After all, a panchayat is one of the building blocks of administration. I think the problem arises when Khaps seek to preserve a way of life that is inconsistent with changing realities. I will post two points here and would welcome comments.
Click to expand...

A lot of people can give an apt reply. Let me also try it.

1. No Khap has ever passed a death sentence. This is indeed true. Till date there is no report, information or media coverage of a Khap panchayat having passed a resolution to condemn somebody to death. But there are irrefutable reports of Khaps passing excommunication judgements on couples/people who have broken certain rules like same-gotra marriage. I think these sort of sentences aggravate the problem rather than solving it. Due to societal pressures in a rural setting, the parents of the girl/boy are already ashamed at their children having violated khap rules. But the excommunication etc sentences worsen situation further. The parents probably feel humiliated publicly and take it out on their kids to avenge their honor. Cant we find a way where the Khaps can pass constructive judgements and help in reducing the shame/guilt of the families rather than pushing them towards violence?
Click to expand...

First of all let me clarify, numeral times khaps have passed positive verdicts on the present devil issues in society. you can see some of the verdicts here..In these cases khaps intervened in some family rivalry, passed resolution against female foeticide, dowry etc..but till data media did not pay heed to cover this positive side of khaps..and khaps were always presented in bad taste

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?30884-Collection-Khap-s-Positive-Social-Verdicts

Now if we come to your question. May be it looks a bit harsh to you. Same gotra marriage is a *SIN* in Jat society and that is not acceptable anyhow. I don't find anything wrong in ostracizing the families who are not in accord because if such steps are not taken, more people will follow the same path..that in turn will destruct the foundation of Jat society. As far as killing is concerned, that is not justifiable at all.

2. Same gotra marriage. I know this is a contro[]versial topic. Even in my community Jatt Sikhs, at least two gotras are generally forbidden - your own and your mother's matrilineal gotra. But nowadays I have seen love marriages happening between people of the same gotra. But this is only restricted to bigger gotras like Sidhu, Gill etc. The reason being that these are gotras with probably thousands of people and if there is no direct link, then it is not seen as a problem. Taking the example of Sidhu gotra, they are spread all over the Malwa region, from Abohar in the west, to Patiala in the east. Its only probable that these families branched off hundreds of years ago and hence have mixed with other gotras in the meantime. This reduced the genetic similarity. But my question is that since Jatts are endogamous, wouldnt almost all gotras be related to each other? So where do we draw the line?
Click to expand...
By the way your community and my community is same..may be religion and distance have created some gaps but basic things are still the same. You can see soem differences in Hindu and sikh jats..so are the differences among majha , malwa and doaba jatts..and so are among haryaand , UP and Rajasthan jats. As you said you saw the love marriages between same gotras..so can you please tell 1) How frequent these are? 2) This is happening in urban or rural area 3) how much acceptance it has in society. your second argument is same when someone says that all are children of adam and eve..so all are brothers and sisters..It has been answered many times , matter is how much you admit that answer
 
Prashant bhai, thank your for your reply. Here are my comments -

prashantacmet said:
A lot of people can give an apt reply. Let me also try it.



First of all let me clarify, numeral times khaps have passed positive verdicts on the present devil issues in society. you can see some of the verdicts here..In these cases khaps intervened in some family rivalry, passed resolution against female foeticide, dowry etc..but till data media did not pay heed to cover this positive side of khaps..and khaps were always presented in bad taste

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?30884-Collection-Khap-s-Positive-Social-Verdicts

Now if we come to your question. May be it looks a bit harsh to you. Same gotra marriage is a *SIN* in Jat society and that is not acceptable anyhow. I don't find anything wrong in ostracizing the families who are not in accord because if such steps are not taken, more people will follow the same path..that in turn will destruct the foundation of Jat society. As far as killing is concerned, that is not justifiable at all.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the positive judgements and indeed media is at fault if such incidents are not brought to light. But I still think its harsh to excommunicate a family or couple especially knowing that this could result in grave consequences like death.


By the way your community and my community is same..may be religion and distance have created some gaps but basic things are still the same. You can see soem differences in Hindu and sikh jats..so are the differences among majha , malwa and doaba jatts..and so are among haryaand , UP and Rajasthan jats. As you said you saw the love marriages between same gotras..so can you please tell 1) How frequent these are? 2) This is happening in urban or rural area 3) how much acceptance it has in society. your second argument is same when someone says that all are children of adam and eve..so all are brothers and sisters..It has been answered many times , matter is how much you admit that answer
Click to expand...

I agree our communities are the same and religion has only created a artificial differentiation. I will answer your questions below -
1) These marriages are indeed rare but not unthinkable. 20 years ago, it would have been unthinkable but now I have seen instances.
2) Rural/urban both. There arent big differentiations between rural and urban Jatts in Punjab.
3) From the examples I know, there were oppositions initially from family members but when both the girl and boy are well to do, educated and so are there parents things quickly went forward. The families did make sure to check there are no direct relation between the two families. No massi/bhua/bhabhi common to both families.

Why the Adam and eve example doesnt work is because, about 2 lakh years ago the first homo sapiens had appeared. You can imagine the distribution and variation in genes in that period. But Jatts as we know them now are only about 1200-1000 or so years old. So we are already mixed amongst each other, relative to other communities. As far as I am concerned, I think we should only check for direct relations like I mentioned above. Jats are usually able to track family history right uptill 4-5 generations ago. If no common ancestor is found, I think its safe to marry.
 
Aamir khan forgot the contribution of jats in Indian history

Aamir khan ignoring the sacrifice made my jats in past and present for saving the identity and dignity , self esteem if india from foreign Intruders
, now jat his struggling for his customs and traditions who are scientifically logically right from those who are not having strong roots in the past , that's why they are targeting the jat who have the strongest roots, every coumminity can live with their customs and nobody has right to certify it, why they are doing it does we have done it same to them no way ,we haven't done this we wont care who else is doing what and why do their tradition, Every one should know that khaps are formed during 600 AD by Raja Harshvardhan to make consensus among people through khaps who are the only mode of com munition at that time because jat generally live together in gotras , so that is easiest way to send any message regarding the betterment of people , nows khaps are targeting by those who don't know why they exists.
gotras forbidding have the scientifically proven that change in genes chain is good for the next better spices that's why jats are becoming better spices compared to others who are not following this system you can observe the difference with other community yourself near your home and city, like their are much bigger difference between yadavs of eastern India and yadavs of northern India , their IQ level , mental level even physical level are different just because northen India yadavs forbidden the two or three gotras and in eastern part they are marrying in same gotra even in mothers gotra
 
swaich said:
Why the Adam and eve example doesnt work is because, about 2 lakh years ago the first homo sapiens had appeared.
Click to expand...
Why it doesn't work because it's part of Abrahmic religion, so for non-Abrahmics, it's an Abrahmic mythology. As far as science is concerned, it says first groups of evolved humans were probably thousands in number. Moreover you can't base ethics on evolution (imagine ancestors of human being monkey or other animals).
Hinduism strictly forbids marriage with 7 generation of father and 5 generation of mother, but South Indian and few other Hindus have local customs of cross-cousin marriages. Jains and Sikhs have similar kinship system. Sizes of clan will get bigger with time, in past they used to break clans in sub-clans if I am not wrong.
Interestingly, most christian denomination consider close cousin marriages(specially first and second cousins) as incest and in Kerala, they do ridicule cross-cousin marriage custom of Hindus as backward and immoral practice. Subcontinental Muslims have higher rate of cousin marriages too.
Yes, there are health and serious genetic issues related to cousin marriage but I think moral reasons precede health issues. Chinese govt. banned it, calling it a primitive practice.
Jatts/Jats are sufficiently diverse because their numbers are more than population of many countries, so I don't think anyone can say that endogamy is inbreeding.

[Quote='puneetlakra]
[/Quote][Quote='puneetlakra]gotras forbidding have the scientifically proven that change in genes chain is good for the next better spices that's why jats are becoming better spices compared to others who are not following this system you can observe the difference with other community yourself near your home and city, like their are much bigger difference between yadavs of eastern India and yadavs of northern India , their IQ level , mental level even physical level are different just because northen India yadavs forbidden the two or three gotras and in eastern part they are marrying in same gotra even in mothers gotra
[/Quote]
I heard that Yadavs of Haryana/west UP/Rajasthan belong to one section, and there are many sections. All these sections are not even related. I think that genetic diversity does enhance qualities but it is also claimed by some people(mostly white racists) that mixing with less evolved people may result in degradation of qualities. That's why a combination of endogamy and exogamy is considered batter. Whites also look down upon inbreeding.
 
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