Public Interest Litigation vs. VHP & AIMPLB (All-India Muslim Personal Law Board)

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deepender said:
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One assumption that I perhaps am still not totally convinced by, however, is regarding believing all Indians are making a consious decision to reproduce; some cases in point:
A recent survey in some north-eastern states recorded that about 30% of people had never heard about the word "Condom"
The same survey in UP muslims recorded that over half of them percieved any family planning measure against God's will (this in back drop of Indonesia implementing one of the most sucessful family planning programs in history of Islamic states)
So, I still think there is some scope left to continue the "education" route. We need to make sure that everyone is taking a conscious and educated decision when he/she does chose to reproduce.
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Oh, absolutely. I think that "education" is an ongoing thing. Its like
advertising. As long as you have something to sell, you adverstise.
Same with these awareness campaigns. They can't stop.

It's just that the problems need to be attacked with a multi-pronged
strategy: educate/inform; mitigate the underlying factors (most important
in my mind); provide incentives/policies etc. that, like you mentioned,
tug at the self-interest strings that motivate all of us. But at no cost
attack our personal freedoms.

Majority of the middle/professional class "chooses" to have small
families. That's the direction we'd want everyone to go.
 
If I can harp on this a bit more....

We often cite China as some sort of
successful example of the "one child law". I am no
authority on China, and have no hard numbers on their
success or lack thereof in this regard but I can say this much:
the Chinese have not been a free people for a very long time.
They have been living under what might be termed as nothing short of tyranny.

Readers would do well to do some research on these subjects before
buying in the notion of their "successful" policies, and then decide
for themselves if that is the system that they want to live under. I assure
you that you will be reminded of India's immergency over and over again.

Just a quick search on the web throws some links right on the
front page. Some samples:

http://www.mmorning.com/article.asp?Article=4496&CategoryID=6
http://www.geocities.com/geogsoc2000/chinaonechild4.htm
http://www.geocities.com/geogsoc2000/chinaonechild2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/geogsoc2000/chinaonechild3.htm
http://students.washington.edu/banana02/finalproject.htm
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/d...jesrom1.601809e-02&t=xarchives/xarchitem.html

BTW: Lest someone might say that some of the info is biased and so
on, I have discussed many of these issues with the numerous colleagues
from China...Chinese policies are harsh, period.

This is just one issue...China applies the "danda" approach over
just about everything (of course..no surprise there...once you let
the water through the crack, its gonna become a stream and soon enough
a flood.).

People are even restricted to where they can work and live !!!!

Imagine Bharat Sarkar deciding that we have too heterogenious
a population, so decides to perform some social engineering whereby a Jat
has to marry a Madrasi and so on...so that by 2050 all Indians
look like a homogeneous bunch...Tau will be saying
"Ymmm Ymmm, Aiyya aiyya yo !". That'd be something ! All the
Tau jokes in our humor section will have to be revised.
 
ozyjat said:
- Without any further delay implement Uniform Civil Code for all religions across India.

- Implement and enforce strict birth control measures.

- Strict border control to stop any illegal immigration of Muslims from Bangladesh and eventually from Pakistan.

- Abolish article 370 and make the State of J&K open to all Indians.

And above all, propagation of hate against other religions in the name of religion should be made a crime.

Any "romantic" and "sentimental" ideas regarding reunification of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh should be summarily dismissed.
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That’s it!! And 'Uniform Civil Code' should be the foremost priority.

Just adding some more to that – as some have already highlighted this before:

Spread the ‘real’ education, awareness and knowledge - about the benefits of small families - among the rural Indian masses. The 4 points – highlighted by Raj – apply to these rural people only (atleast, to some extent).

Our middle/working class and higher society is already aware about that.

Moreover, regarding the PIL – you can go forward dear Deepender. So that, atleast, these people/organizations (VHP, AIMPLB etc.) could not use their wrong speeches – to misguide our rural masses - for the time till everyone is literate enough to understand about what is right or wrong.


With due regards to all,

Thanks
 
Raj
Seems like now our viewpoints have converged to a considerable extent! It was a healthy debate!!! Need to keep doing this on variety of subjects.


Tokas Bhai,
Thanks for your support. I will keep you posted on the outcome.

Thanks,
Deepender


raj_rathee said:
Oh, absolutely. I think that "education" is an ongoing thing. Its like
advertising. As long as you have something to sell, you adverstise.
Same with these awareness campaigns. They can't stop.

It's just that the problems need to be attacked with a multi-pronged
strategy: educate/inform; mitigate the underlying factors (most important
in my mind); provide incentives/policies etc. that, like you mentioned,
tug at the self-interest strings that motivate all of us. But at no cost
attack our personal freedoms.
QUOTE]



stokas said:
Moreover, regarding the PIL – you can go forward dear Deepender. So that, atleast, these people/organizations (VHP, AIMPLB etc.) could not use their wrong speeches – to misguide our rural masses - for the time till everyone is literate enough to understand about what is right or wrong.


With due regards to all,

Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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Looks like the PM agrees with us on population stabilisation issues.


http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050724/main3.htm


Coercion no means to stabilise population: PM
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, July 23
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh today said coercion of any kind for achieving population stabilisation is unacceptable in a free society.

Chairing the first meeting of the reconstituted National Commission on Population here today, the Prime Minister called for a three-pronged approach focussing on the welfare of women and girls, enhancement of health and educational levels and balanced regional development.

He made it clear that the government’s policy “does not encourage incentives and disincentives as they have, at best, only a marginal impact and sometimes may even cause resentment and non-acceptance of the programme”.

The Prime Minister said the government’s approach placed fertility reduction in the broader context of evolving an effective development strategy that focussed its attention on elimination of poverty, empowerment of women and offered choice in limiting family size.

Agreeing that human resource was an inevitable asset for a developing nation, the Prime Minister said the environment should be able to sustain the population in the long run. “Therefore, sustainability of development process requires a degree of population stabilisation.”

Mr Manmohan Singh asked the commission not to mistake population stabilisation to be population control. He said population stabilisation was a challenge and drew attention to projection of increase in India’s population from 110 crore at present to 140 crore by 2026.

He referred to widespread consensus that population stabilisation entailed a holistic, comprehensive approach towards education and healthcare, particularly of women and children.

The Prime Minister said unless India’s population policy was integrated with its wider development policy, it could never achieve the objective of population stabilisation within a reasonable time frame.

“The link between social and human development and demographic trends is obvious and too stark to ignore.”

He urged states with high population growth to learn from the experience of Andhra Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu that had higher scores in the human development index.

Mr Manmohan Singh said the government was committed to economic and social empowerment of women and girls. “We need to empower adolescent girls and young women so that they can make informed choices about their lives and the size of their families. This empowerment played a critical role in accelerating the demographic transition not just in states like Kerala and Tamil Nadu but across the world,” he said.

The Prime Minister said an effective old age care system along with a focussed drive to reduce infant mortality would reduce the incentives for having large families.

He said population stabilisation was a national endeavour and everybody must work together to achieve this task and give it the shape of a mass national movement. He said the challenge of population management was to empower people so that those who were perceived as liabilities could be effectively transformed into assets.

“A literate, gainfully employed and socially, culturally and economically productive person is a national asset,” he said.
 
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Yeah you are right Raj. We can not accomplish much through forced measures in long run, we have to focus on tackling misinformation, unnecessary religious rhetorics, age old stigmas while advancing education, women enpowerment, economic well-being, human-development indexes, old age care planning etc. for a holistic improvement. PM is right on the mark there.
PM also hit on urgent need to tackle accompanying pressures on resource consumptions, I am planning to start another thread to discuss that shortly.

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By the way, PM noted: "Andhra Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu that had higher scores in the human development index....."

Any views on this one ?? -- most are southern states, which are recording much lower growths of population even with a now slightly lower per capita income than say states like Haryana or Punjab.....
 
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deepender said:
By the way PM noted: "Andhra Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu that had higher scores in the human development index....."

Any views on this one ?? -- most are southern states, which are recording much lower growths of population even with a lower per capita income than say states like Haryana or Punjab.....
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Deepender,

I don't really understand what information is reflected in this
index. So can't really comment. Indexes are tricky things and try
to capture some sort of meaning in underlying complexity. I suppose
one would have to understand what composes this index to try to
reason why some states lag behind.

For instance, southern states have had engineering colleges and medical
colleges at every street corner since many years. Every other person
seems to be an engineer or doctor. If factors like these reflect in this
index then one can see why our northern states would lag behind.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#Top_thirty_countries


Human Development Index
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The UN Human Development Index (HDI) measures poverty, literacy, education, life expectancy, and other factors. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. The index was developed in 1990 by the Pakistani economist Mahbub ul Haq, and has been used since 1993 by the United Nations Development Programme in its annual report.

The HDI measures the average achievements in a country in three basic dimensions of human development:

A long and healthy life, as measured by life expectancy at birth.
Knowledge, as measured by the adult literacy rate (with two-thirds weight) and the combined primary, secondary and tertiary gross enrollment ratio (with one-third weight).
A decent standard of living, as measured by GDP per capita (PPP USD).
Each year, countries are ranked according to these measures. Those high on the list often brag about it, as a means of attracting talented migrants (economically, individual capital) or discouraging potential emigrants from leaving.
 
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As can be seen in the basic description of the index there are a number of
factors and education seems to be fairly prominent.

However, based on the interaction with lot of souther people here in the
US, I cannot really justify southern states beinbg better than Haryana,
Punjab Delhi etc on economic well being. That just doesn't ring true.
I have no idea about UP/Bihar and such states.
 
There is no such thing as too much or too less of a population.

I think "number of children," is a matter of personal choice for the family. The burden of such "personal choices" must not be shoved upon the tax funded system.

If you cannot feed them, dont have them.

As far as PIL's against statements is concerned, it sounds really absurd coming from a sitting member of the lower house of the Parliament. I thought they made you take the oath upon the consitution. Next time, take the pain to open it and go to the page that mentions the fundamental rights of every citizen. Look for the fundamental right to free speech.
 
dahiyarules said:
There is no such thing as too much or too less of a population.

I think "number of children," is a matter of personal choice for the family. The burden of such "personal choices" must not be shoved upon the tax funded system. .
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When people like Togadia and leaders of Muslim PLB fill the minds of mostly uneducated and poor people about the so-called benefits of having large no. of children, its not a personal choice of families anymore..A personal choice comes when you make an informed decision not a coerced decision..High Population is one of the worst problem of India and the sooner we curb it, the better we would be..The process of curbing is surely debatable and better idea is to educate people and give extra benefits to those Not adding more burden on India's land in the name of increasing their religion..
 
increasing population is not a way to go!

I think anyone making such statements lack vision and wisdom or have vested intersts.As far as India goes , i dont agree that more hands and more work. We already have enough hands but no work for them.We need efficient and effective hands not just hands.
And could anyone ask togadia or muslim law board what if someone goes by there statements and open a "karkhana" for producing childern, will they come to feed or educate or give job to them. I agree that muslims are increasing in number, but we all know where a common muslim stand today. I believe that it is mind that rules and not the number otherwise we would never have a sikh prime minister and a muslim persident in a hindu dominating nation.
And freedom of speech doesnt mean that u rob people of their common sense and push them on suicidal path.If someone provokes u to commit a murder then he is equally to blame.Such statements are certainlt anti national.
I dont know if a PIL will be effective in this case or not but such people should somehow be restricted for making such statements in public.
 
need leadership on the population issue

I dont think anybody can take VHP or muslim board to court, the case would be outed in 1 hearing becauase we do have freedom of speech.
What we need is a leader with spine and some balls to make this a popular issue. Haryana seems to be doing better than the rest of the country on this issue. I think half of the country lives in U.P Bihar - unfortunately they are the ones with the highest pop growths - more breed more.

Mr. Deepender Hooda are you willing to get your feet dirty with this issue????
 
dahiyarules said:
There is no such thing as too much or too less of a population.

I think "number of children," is a matter of personal choice for the family. The burden of such "personal choices" must not be shoved upon the tax funded system.

If you cannot feed them, dont have them.

As far as PIL's against statements is concerned, it sounds really absurd coming from a sitting member of the lower house of the Parliament. I thought they made you take the oath upon the consitution. Next time, take the pain to open it and go to the page that mentions the fundamental rights of every citizen. Look for the fundamental right to free speech.
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DEAR MR. DAHIYA,
There is nothing personal, when we are talking about the nation, the society(not even the children). If anything seems beneficial for the individual, but cause nuasance, create problem for the the group(the nation, the society or anything) it should be stopped. And in the tax funded system all the individual absurds must be checked. A child is not the personal property even its GDP. We, the nation have to make the arrangement for the increasing population and not the individual. So the PIL is right enough for the country's well being and tax-funded system.

These so-called GOD-FATHERS have no right to infuse wrong idea in the society.
 
In my view we should give incentives to those having one or two kids like job security, financial assitance while studying and social security including medical facilities and Govt. can easily initiate this kind of things but I doubt as every Political Party is busy in vote gathering. otherwise we have many option just make Common Civil Code for every citizen of the country as most of the developed countries have.

Everything is vote here be it BJP (Hindu card) or Congress (Muslim appeasement) otherwise things would have been changed now.
 
We must agree that it is all Politics. Where would you rank an Politician on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of honesty and integrity.

We all have our our dear and favorite leaders. Thus we tend to overlook their drawbacks.

Whether it is Togadia or the Imam of the Jama Masjid.

Muslims need to realize that the onus of proving their loyalty lies on them. Some Muslims like our President and ex Presidents like Zakir Hussein have proven their loyalty and we as a nation value them for their contribution to our society.

There are others like Dawood Ibrahim who openly declare their loyalty for those who want to hurt us.

I get hate mails from Muslims all the time. My effort www.sumitdahiya.com is a pacifism promoting and liberty enhancing initiative. I take every opportunity to make my views very open in favor of letting the Kashmiris decide whats best for them. But, I am hated by the general Muslim population because of the kind of attention my website is getting from Indians in India and the world over. They believe that it might be another unifying factor for Indians. They fear just any effort that unifies our people.

If you go to Pakistani forums like www.paklinks.com, you will realize that what brings together the people of Pakistani people is a commong desire to destroy India.

However, we must not forget that this kind of anti-India hysteria has been created by the Pakistani ruling elites, just like there is a anti-muslim hysteria created by people like Togadia and organizations like BJP, VHP and Shiv Sena.

Secularism, free-speech, free-enterprise and an armed populace are the four pillars of a free society. In no way we must tollerate the inhibition of the freedom to practice faith. Muslims just like Hindus, Sikhs and Christians must be allowed their own domain of religion.

However, we must not overlook the poor track record that Muslims have had in societies both where they are in the Majority or in the Minority. The recent demolitions of Hindu Temples in Pakistan and even a progressive Muslim nation like Malayasia are tantamount to the demolition of Babri Masjid in India in the year 1992. On the other side, we must not forget the inner demons that the Muslim population in western Europe brought out over their angst agains tthe publication of the cartoons of Prophet Mohammed.

I have a few Muslim friends. Infact, when I was in high school, I was always kicked around by the school bullies. The person who came to my aid was a Muslim kid by the name Murad Ali Sheikh Jahangir. He helped me tremendously gain back my confidence and feel secure once again. My another Muslim friend Monis Aziz is like my elder brother. He has always given me life changing advice. These are some of the people I trust with an open heart. People like Murad and Monis can help us achieve an integrated Indian society that rests on the four pillars of freedom that I mentioned above.

All this said, we must always watch out for rabble-rousing Muslims who started the Godhra riots by putting a train full of Hindu pilgrims to fire. But, we must not forget that such rabble-rousing muslims are complimented by maniacal partisans like Praveen Togadia.

At the end of the day, I do not trust Togadia or his fellow nutcases who demolished the Babri Masjid, the Imam of Jama Masjid, or Partisan politicians like Advani and Murli Manohar Joshi. I believe that all these individuals are a threat to a free society.
 
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