Puranic History - Pt. Kota Venkata Chelam

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I came across your list searching for Guptas and their inscriptions. I went through your interesting discussions and am glad to find your interest in related topics.
I hope to get information and openion from you people on the topics related to Guptas.
The blog I recently started giving extracts from books on Ancient Hindu, Kashmir and Nepal history written by Pandit Kota Venkata Chelam in the 1950s, copies of which are now out of stock may be of interest to you.
I request you to look at some of the posts and give your comments and inputs for which I will be grateful. Pandit Kota Venkata Chelam based his history on the contents on the ancient literature available in India such
as Puranas, Rajatarangini and Kaliyuga Raja Vrittanta. The relevant link follows.
To see my blog search for Kota Venkata Chelam and trueindianhistory

With regards,
Prasad
 
Guptas, their period , Malava Gana Saka

As I am new to this forum, I am told I cannot post a link until i finish 15 posts. Even then let me try
The link is trueindianhistory-kvchelam(dot)blogspot(dot)com
Prasad
 
Pataliputra Empire -- The Gupta Emporers by Pandit Chelam

Kali 2775-3020 : B.C. 327-82 : Total 245 years.

<table rules="none" border="0" cellspacing="5" cols="6" frame="void"><colgroup><col width="39"><col width="201"><col width="108"><col width="86"><col width="86"><col width="86"></colgroup><tbody><tr><td width="39" align="center" height="17">S.No</td><td width="201" align="left">Name of the Emperor</td><td valign="middle" width="108" align="center">Years reigned</td><td valign="middle" width="86" align="center">Kali</td><td valign="middle" width="86" align="center">B.C.</td><td valign="middle" width="86" align="center">Gupta Era</td></tr><tr><td sdval="1" sdnum="1033;" align="center" height="17">1</td><td align="left">Chandra Gupta I</td><td sdval="7" sdnum="1033;" valign="middle" align="center">7</td><td valign="middle" align="center">2775-2782</td><td valign="middle" align="center">327-320</td><td valign="middle" align="center">1 – 7</td></tr><tr><td sdval="2" sdnum="1033;" align="center" height="17">2</td><td align="left">Samudra Gupta</td><td sdval="51" sdnum="1033;" valign="middle" align="center">51</td><td valign="middle" align="center">2792-2833</td><td valign="middle" align="center">320-269</td><td sdnum="1033;0;MM/DD/YY" valign="middle" align="center">7 – 58</td></tr><tr><td sdval="3" sdnum="1033;" align="center" height="17">3</td><td align="left">Chandra Gupta II</td><td sdval="36" sdnum="1033;" valign="middle" align="center">36</td><td valign="middle" align="center">2833-2869</td><td valign="middle" align="center">269-233</td><td valign="middle" align="center">58 – 94</td></tr><tr><td sdval="4" sdnum="1033;" align="center" height="17">4</td><td align="left">Kumara Gupta I</td><td sdval="42" sdnum="1033;" valign="middle" align="center">42</td><td valign="middle" align="center">869-2911</td><td valign="middle" align="center">233-191</td><td valign="middle" align="center">94 – 136</td></tr><tr><td sdval="5" sdnum="1033;" align="center" height="17">5</td><td align="left">Skanda Gupta</td><td sdval="25" sdnum="1033;" valign="middle" align="center">25</td><td valign="middle" align="center">2911-2936</td><td valign="middle" align="center">191-166</td><td valign="middle" align="center">136 – 161</td></tr><tr><td sdval="6" sdnum="1033;" valign="middle" align="center" height="75">6</td><td valign="top" align="left">Narasimhagupta being minor by gaurdian Stiragupta … 5 years Narasimha Gupta himself after attaining majority</td><td sdval="40" sdnum="1033;" valign="middle" align="center">40</td><td valign="middle" align="center">2936-2976</td><td valign="middle" align="center">166-126</td><td valign="middle" align="center">161 – 201</td></tr><tr><td sdval="7" sdnum="1033;" align="center" height="17">7</td><td align="left">Kumara Gupta II</td><td sdval="44" sdnum="1033;" valign="middle" align="center">44</td><td valign="middle" align="center">2976-3020</td><td valign="middle" align="center">126-82</td><td valign="middle" align="center">201 – 245</td></tr></tbody></table>

From the account of the Great Gupta Dynasty as given in Kaliyuga Raja Vrittanta(K.R.V), it is clear that the Gupta Dynasty consisted of only seven kings, and every one of them had a title ending with the word "Aaditya", and that they reigned as Emperors of India for a total period of 245 years from 327 B.C. to 82 B.C.
(Vide: Age of Sankara Part I B. Ed. 191 by T.S. Narayana Sastry, B.A.B.L., High Court Vakil, Madras.)

1. Chandragupta I, otherwise known as ‘Vijayaditya’ on account of his valour, founded the mighty Empire of the Guptas, annexed a part of Magadha to his own territory (Tirhut and Ayodhya) having Pataliputra as his capital. He was the son of Ghatotkacha Gupta and grandson of Sri Gupta, from whom the Dynasty founded by Chandra Gupta took its name. The Great Guptas originally belonged to the Surya Vamsi Kshatriya caste, who settled themselves as locai chiefs at Sri Parvata near Nepal, from which circumstance they come to be known in history as Parvatiyas. These and the Lichchavis of Vaisali were associated with the kings of Nepal. They were Kshatriyas of the Aryan Descent of Nepal. Both of them belonged to a warlike caste. The Lichchavis were chiefly noted for the beauty of their girls, and kings were proud to have them as queens. Some of the later kings of the Aandhra Dynasty had taken their daughters for their wives and many of the Lichchavis had settled themselves in the big cities of Magadha such as Girivraja and Pataliputra etc., as officers of state under the Aandhra kings, and Sri Gupta and Ghatotkacha Gupta had already entered into the service of Sivasri Satakarni, the 27th king of the Aandhra Dynasty as his generals, and won many great victories in battles for him and his succession to the throne was effected by most violent means of regicide. Chandrapupta, the grandson of Sri Gupta, by his personal valo`r added greatly to the dominions of the Aandhra kings, and his political importance as commander-in-chief of Yajnasri Saatakarni and Vijaya Sri Saatakarni, won for him the hand of Kumaradevi, the daughter of the king of Nepal, by whom he got a most brave and warlike son by name ‘Samudragupta’. It is said that Chandragupta had already married a princess of the Lichchavis, whose sister was given in marriage to Chandra Sri Satakarni. By his Lichchavi princes Chandra Gupta had another son by name ‘Kacha’ or ‘Ghatotkacha Gupta’ and certain it is that this Lichchavi connection elevated him from the rank of a general as enjoyed by his father and grand—father to the rank of commander- in-chief, and Chandra Gupta, the king’s syala (Rashtriya Syala) as he was called, seems to have controlled the state even during the life time of his nominal master Chandra Sri, who was completely in the hands of his Rashtriya Syala. It is stated that the queen of Chandra Sri had fallen in love with her sister’s husband; and Chandragupta had by some stratagem murdered the king Chandrasri and under the pretext of acting as guardian to his minor son Puloman III, and in the course of seven years, Chandragupta made himself master of the whole situation, put to death the last scion of the Aandhra kings and proclaimed himself as Emperor of Magadha in the year Kali 2775 or 2811 from the Great Mahabharata battle i.e., in B.C. 327. He is said to have established an Era known after his name, as the Gupta Era (327 B.C.). Oriental scholars, on the supposed synchronism of Saudrocottus of the Greeks with Chandragupta Maurya, wrongly state that the first year of the Gupta Era, which continued in use for several centuries, ran from 319-320 AD., although there is absolutely nothing to support their assumption.

Chandragupta, designated as the First, to distinguish him from his grandson of the same name, is described to have extended his own dominion along the Gangetic valley as far as the junction of the Ganges and Jumna, annexing a part of Magadha, a populous and fertile territory which included a greater part of Aryavartha. This king is said to have struck coins in the joint names of himself, his Lichchavi queen and the Lichchavi clan to which he was the chief.

It is said Chandragupta, before his death selected as his successor Kacha, or more fully Ghatotkacha; his son by the Lichchavi princes and Samudra Gupta, his eldest son by Kumaradevi, the daughter of the king of Nepal, who had already distinguished himself in many adventures against Mlechcha invaders who attacked his maternal grandfather’s territories, coming to know of the treachery intended to be practised by his unscrupulous father, collected large bands of warriors from Nepal and from the Mleccha sects of North-west India, marched against his father’s capital, and by putting to death his father and his half brother Kacha succeeded to the throne of Pataliputra to which he was rightly entitled in the year Kali 2782 or 320 B.C.
 
Relation between Guptas, Malavas , Jats

On this list I see a lot of discussion about Guptas, their inscriptions , Malava or Malawas.
Can somebody enlighten me about the connection, if any, between them.

Prasad
 
Puranic History- pt. Kota Venkatachelam

gdprasad said:
Kali 2775-3020 : B.C. 327-82 : Total 245 years.
Click to expand...
gdprasad said:
<TABLE cellSpacing=5 cols=6 rules=none border=0 frame=void><COLGROUP><COL width=39><COL width=201><COL width=108><COL width=86><COL width=86><COL width=86></COLGROUP><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle width=39 height=17>S.No</TD><TD align=left width=201>Name of the Emperor</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=108>Years reigned</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=86>Kali</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=86>B.C.</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle width=86>Gupta Era</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle height=17 sdnum="1033;" sdval="1">1</TD><TD align=left>Chandra Gupta I</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle sdnum="1033;" sdval="7">7</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>2775-2782</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>327-320</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>1 – 7</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle height=17 sdnum="1033;" sdval="2">2</TD><TD align=left>Samudra Gupta</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle sdnum="1033;" sdval="51">51</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>2792-2833</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>320-269</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle sdnum="1033;0;MM/DD/YY">7 – 58</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle height=17 sdnum="1033;" sdval="3">3</TD><TD align=left>Chandra Gupta II</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle sdnum="1033;" sdval="36">36</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>2833-2869</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>269-233</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>58 – 94</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle height=17 sdnum="1033;" sdval="4">4</TD><TD align=left>Kumara Gupta I</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle sdnum="1033;" sdval="42">42</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>869-2911</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>233-191</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>94 – 136</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle height=17 sdnum="1033;" sdval="5">5</TD><TD align=left>Skanda Gupta</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle sdnum="1033;" sdval="25">25</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>2911-2936</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>191-166</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>136 – 161</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle height=75 sdnum="1033;" sdval="6">6</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Narasimhagupta being minor by gaurdian Stiragupta … 5 years Narasimha Gupta himself after attaining majority</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle sdnum="1033;" sdval="40">40</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>2936-2976</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>166-126</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>161 – 201</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle height=17 sdnum="1033;" sdval="7">7</TD><TD align=left>Kumara Gupta II</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle sdnum="1033;" sdval="44">44</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>2976-3020</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>126-82</TD><TD vAlign=center align=middle>201 – 245</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

From the account of the Great Gupta Dynasty as given in Kaliyuga Raja Vrittanta(K.R.V), it is clear that the Gupta Dynasty consisted of only seven kings, and every one of them had a title ending with the word "Aaditya", and that they reigned as Emperors of India for a total period of 245 years from 327 B.C. to 82 B.C.

I have gone through the material available on the URL of Kota Venkatachalam. Without in any way under estimating his efforts in any way I am not able to persuade myself to agree with him on some of his basic premises arrived at mostly on sources of uncertain authenticity as far as chronology of Indian history is concerned. His challenges to the widely accepted chronology beginning with the invasion of India by Alexander do not stand in face of the laest researches in Indian history.
His own accepting the epoch of the Kali Era as 3102 B.c.E does not leave him enough space to accommodate his own version of Indian history till the time of the Gupta rulers.A look at the chart of the period of reign of different Guptarulers betrays his weaknes for overlooking clinching evidence of the inscriptions of that family.Given below are given the reign periods of these rulers derived from ascertainable evidence cross checked with dates given in the inscrpitions:

1,Shrigupta : (uncertain)
2.Ghatotkachagupta: (315-320 A.d.) 5 years
3.Chandragupta-I (320-335 A.D.) 15 years
4.Samudragupta (335-375 A.D.) 37 years
5.Chandragupta-II (375-413 A.D.) 38 years
6.Kumaragupta-I (413-455 A.D.) 42 years
7.Skandagupta (455-467 A.D.) 12 years
8.Purugupta (467-468 A.D.) 01 year
9.Budhagupta (468-472 A.D.) 04 years
10.Kumaragupta-II (472-473 AD.) 01 year

Govindagupta,a brother of Kumaragupta, Narasinghagupta and
Bhanugupta have also to be accommodated in the above chart.
Dtes after8 above are to be verified yet.
It is understandable that Kota Venkatachelam writing 55 years back had no access to the historical material which was published after him. The Puranas supply us significant data of historical importance. but have to contend with the weaknesses of the narratives, especially in maters of chronology.
Click to expand...
 
<meta http-equiv="CONTENT-TYPE" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <title></title> <meta name="GENERATOR" content="OpenOffice.org 3.1 (Linux)"> <style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } --> </style> Sri drssrana2003,
Please let me try to answer( from Pandit Chelam's and others statements) :

  1. ......his basic premises ,arrived at mostly on sources of uncertain authenticity as far as chronology of Indian history is concerned.....
    a) If you take pains to examine, you will find that the presently accepted history of ancient India is based on very flimsy grounds and is arrived at by weak,false logic and is enforced on us by Western Orientalists. It is not based on any new data, and it is arrived at before Pandit Chelam's time and is known to him and is logically demolished by him.
  2. I discovered a book recently, which will help to remove our misconceptions about the
reliablility or authenticity of our ancient literature
The book is : “The Celestial key to the Vedas – Discovering the origins of the world's oldest
civilisation”
by B.G.Siddhardh, Director, Birla Science Center, Hyderabad
 
gdprasad said:
<META content="OpenOffice.org 3.1 (Linux)" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE type=text/css> <!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } --> </STYLE> Sri drssrana2003,
Please let me try to answer( from Pandit Chelam's and others statements) :

  1. ......his basic premises ,arrived at mostly on sources of uncertain authenticity as far as chronology of Indian history is concerned.....
    a) If you take pains to examine, you will find that the presently accepted history of ancient India is based on very flimsy grounds and is arrived at by weak,false logic and is enforced on us by Western Orientalists. It is not based on any new data, and it is arrived at before Pandit Chelam's time and is known to him and is logically demolished by him.
  2. I discovered a book recently, which will help to remove our misconceptions about the
reliablility or authenticity of our ancient literature
The book is : “The Celestial key to the Vedas – Discovering the origins of the world's oldest
civilisation”
by B.G.Siddhardh, Director, Birla Science Center, Hyderabad
Click to expand...


GUDA JI,
It appears you have not read my post of 2 December. You are expressing an opinion on the correctness of Kota Venkatachelam's view of history. The inscriptions of the Gupta dynasty have been studied by generations of Indian scholars. Where does the foreign role come here. It is hard evidence and can not be manipulated by any one-foreign or swadeshi. Please do not merely wswear by a book written some fifty years back with a loaded mind. I have gone through the URL given by you and find the chronology, especially of the Gupta kings quite out of tune with the internal evidence of their inscriptions.
You have given in your latest post another reference of a book by B. G. Siddharth, who takes us to the uncertain world of the celestial region. It will be better to write on issues rather than enter in the uncertain realm of speculation and sweeping generalisations. I think our concern should be to reach the truth on a given topic. We do not live in the age of oracles.
Thanks.
s.s.rana
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A people is known by the type of history it writes, or forgets to write.
 
Indians( including me) until recently were quite mesmerized by colonial views of the history and culture of our people.

One dictum, which we were all too ready to accept was;

“ Indians know no history- have no sense of history”

At one stroke, the Indian historical tradition, known as Ithihaas, and carried forward orally, or in written form, in the Puranas and others bodies of knowledge, was negated and wiped clean.

What is taught in Indian and other history text books, at all levels, is the western world view of the history of the Indian subcontinent.

This has been questioned by a number of scholars, who have unfortunately been given short shrift and marginalized more or less to the fringe and out of the mainstream.

That there is a conflict between the view of the Western scholars and their Indian disciples, and those who follow the Indian tradition is blantant and obvious.

Is the Indian tradition that outlandish?

The western view finds as it sheet anchor the dates of the 1st Gupta’s, timed to synchronize with the invasion of Alexander the Macedonian.

His date being fixed at circa 323 BCE, and there being a reference to one ‘Sandrocottus’, it was sufficient evidence for Colonial Historians to link this vaguely similar sounding name to Chandragupta Maurya the grandfather of Ashok.

How someone can derive Chandragupta from Sandocottus, has always been a bit beyond my abilty to understand, and there has been plenty of discussion on the Jathistory group about that.

There are other anomalies too.

From this dating, it was possible for Colonial Historians to extrapolate the dates of Buddha, Mahavir, the subsequent empires etc .

The facts are however that the so call Gupta eras are independent eras and do not have a relation to any other era.

There is also plenty of evidence that indicates problems with fixing the 1st and 2nd Guptas where they are currently fixed.

That being the case, there is no harm in reexamining the history of the period, taking in to account, the evidence that is now surfacing.

There are many sources.

One interesting book is:

Ancient India in a new Light- K D Sethna
Publisher: Aditya Prakashan Binding: Hardcover ISBN: 8185179123

In the internet resources we could look at,for starters :

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12314897/...d-Greek-Synchronism-in-Ancient-Indian-History

http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/...-swamys-valedictory-speech-at-the-conference/

As Dr Rana put it elsewhere, our historians are shaped largely by colonial thinking, followed by Marxist thinking.

If we are to re examine and re assess the data, we need to do that, without any baggage from the past.




Ravi Chaudhary
 
Ravi Ji,
Let us, for a moment.forget the so called colonial historians and also their Indian disciples. Let us concentrate on indigenous material. There is a problem here. Which indigenous material?, the one contained in reliable records or the plethora of assumptions and concocted stories passed off as history stated to be based on vedic lore or its offhoots. There is a vast amount of writings of this category produced during the colonial era or near about served as a delectable dish to the palate of the hard core patriot. Today we are a free nation given the onerous responsibility to reconstruct our pat and shape our future. Gullibility or a mere thought of imagined past is not going to help things. As we stand today, we are not poor in indigenous sources to wett our history. Hard internal evidence is there in plenty to obviate any chances of distorting dates. Take the example of our Indian eras. Kali era as vouschafed by inscriptional evidence goes back to 3104 B.C.E.This also is the date of the Bharat war. The Malava/Vkrama era is extensively figures in so many incriptions as does the Gupta era. And the good news is that these eras interchange mention in the record of the ame king sometime leaving little cope for speculaion regarding chronology. The example of the Mandasor inscription of the guild of silk weavers give two dates in Malav era -first the date of construction of a sun temple during the reign of Kumaragupta-I (493 Malava =436 C.E.)and second at the time of carrying out certain repairs therein during Kumaragupta-II’s reign (Malava 549=472 C.E.). Now the chronology of the gupta rulers reckoned by their own era and the Malava era stands tallied in this and several other cases. Similar is the case of the Shaka era used in inscriptions. The contemporeity of Harshawardhana, Pulikesin, the Chalukya and Devagupta of the later Guptas stands confirmed by the Aihole inscription dated in the Shaka( 556) and the Kali era (3735). The so called Pauranicas can not cloe their eye to such authentic indigenous evidence and continue to beat the scientific historians with the stick of ‘misplaced’ nationalism.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
 
Sri S.S.Rana ji,
1. The equation 493 Malava =436 C.E. assumes that Malava Gana Era is same as Vikrama Era of 57 B.C.
Please provide proof. Dr.Fleet does not give any proof.
Pandit Chelam says that Malava Gana Saka corresponds to 725 B.C.
2. Please read my postings in my blog where Pandit Chelam argues that the the two Mandasor inscriptions
nos.164 and 165 were forged.
3. Western historians argued that Vikramaditya , king of Ujjain, who brought into existance Vikarama Era of 57 B.C. , never existed, or if at all he existed, he is same as Chandra Gupta II of Gupta Dynasty (according to them of 5th Century A.D.)
4. Please also read the postings about Mihirakula and Yasodharman
 
gdprasad said:
Sri S.S.Rana ji,
1. The equation 493 Malava =436 C.E. assumes that Malava Gana Era is same as Vikrama Era of 57 B.C.
Please provide proof. Dr.Fleet does not give any proof.
Pandit Chelam says that Malava Gana Saka corresponds to 725 B.C.
2. Please read my postings in my blog where Pandit Chelam argues that the the two Mandasor inscriptions
nos.164 and 165 were forged.
3. Western historians argued that Vikramaditya , king of Ujjain, who brought into existance Vikarama Era of 57 B.C. , never existed, or if at all he existed, he is same as Chandra Gupta II of Gupta Dynasty (according to them of 5th Century A.D.)
4. Please also read the postings about Mihirakula and Yasodharman
Click to expand...

Guda Ji,
Ihave gone through the material on your Blog including Pandit Venkatachelams writings. I am unable to agree with his methodology and conclusions a they appear to have been based on the Pauranic accounts of uncertain authenticity and the realm of astrology (different from the scientific discipline of Astronomy).Latest researches by competent Indian scholars leave little doubt with regard to I ndian chronology and the epochs and prevalence of various eras.
Your view that the two Mandasaur incriptions are forged appears to be an opnion, as no proof is cited.What would you ay on the contents of the Risthal Inscription of Prakashadharman(father of Yashodharman?)? It was discovered in 1983 and has bee extenively tudied and commented upon by I ndian and International scholars ever since its discovery and publication in Journal of the Epigraphical Society of India the same year. It carries the date 572 (vikrama/Malava era). It gives history of the Aulikara family of several generation. The text in Sanskrit with Enlish translation and a brief note written by me is available on Jatland Wiki. Please go through this material. You may like to review your tand.
Your insistence to follow only what Pandit Venkatachaeam would not help to carry our dialogue to a fruitful result.
Thanks.
s.s.rana
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A people is known by the kind of history it writes, or forgets to write one.
 
drssrana2003 said:
Ravi Ji,
Let us, for a moment.forget the so called colonial historians and also their Indian disciples. Let us concentrate on indigenous material.
None the less.

Every writer( historian), investigator, researcher will have a bias. A bias shaped by cultural background, education etc, and it is, I suggest ,better to recognize and accept that bias, than ignore it.


On chronology:

I wonder if the issue is really quite so open and shut

By current Historical standards, Indian history starts , pretty much, with Alexander's invasion, and all else falls into pre- history- as being vague, unsubstantiated etc etc.

To me it seems a bit surprising the subcontinent had no history until the time of Alexander.


Ravi Chaudhary




One wonders then , Is it possible to totally ignore the domestic traditions.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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