Reservation versus Commonwealth Games

[yogigodara]

देश की आज़ादी को लेने में तकरीबन 90 साल लग गए थे | वो तो विश्व युद्ध के कारण मिल गई नहीं तो न जाने कितना वक़्त और लगता तो क्या वहा भी यह "time frame " वाले सवाल को लेकर चलना चाहिए था लोगो को ?
फिर गुणा जोड़ घटा में फंस गया भाई | प्लान "B " का भी बता दूंगा सब्र कर | "A " में ही लोगो को पसीना आ गया | अभी तक तो लोगो को "A" के नतीजे का ही नहीं पता लगा अच्छी तरह से यहाँ पर , तुम्हे पता हो तो बता दो ? "B " पर आ खड़ा हुआ | 10 जुलाई तक सब्र रख | अब A B C D सारी जल्दी आगे आनेवाली हैं |

 

[shailendra]

...Aare ghani daer ho li bkwaad karte ude; kunsi mhaari "haan mein haan" na milaan tae arakshan milta rukk jaga?... aer kunsi thamnae Bharat baithe-od es 'andolan' mein top si chala di??? Ude araam tae doosra-pae anglee thaatae, per ghar-goodae mein ghussae roz 'andde' diye paachae bhi to kuchh na hoga... andolan karna hai tae kimmi rally-rooli mein jao, bijli-paani roko, thaare jise baki loga nae bhi pyaasa maaro, paresaan karo, jutae khao, (naukari lagwao?), jaton ka naam roshan karo; aer phaer baat karo... sirf badee-badee batan ka ‘samarthan’ sa ude bhgaan lag rae!?!

Aer mere yaar tham baki kae bhi en baawli-boochan ka kyalein muh laag rae so...kuchh-ek kae phrustration ka para ghanna upar chadd rhya sai (ek dangar-sa jisnae mahollae ki saari ladkiyaan dara rakhee sein, usnae arakshan kae SC kae phull-farm bhi bera konya!)... tark-turk to sae konya, aaye yo bade doosra kae ude JAT-jaati define karan tayeein...!

 

[sunillathwal]

Female infanticide. It is foolish to ignore the lowest ratio in the country and/or attribute it to some make-believe factors. I have no qualms in admitting that I have seen an overwhelming desire for a male child in most of my relations. Having a preference either ways is natural. But in our society it goes to an extreme, where people actually express sympathy on a girl child and congratulatory messages on a male child. And in more extreme cases, to not letting the female child take birth. The issue has to be taken up before it causes irreparable damage.

Kapil, low sex-ratio is a huge issue. and damage is already done (more will be reflected in coming years) But I am surprised that most of the time people (be it politicians, ngos, or common folks) relate it to the female-infanticide. You have put it rightly that female-infanticide is only in some extreme cases. I feel that infanticide is considered to be a taboo in most families [well, can not generalize but yeah i have observed) but desire of having a son is always there.

Last year, i was talking to a friend (married) of mine, regarding raising the girl child and boy child. What she told me was interesting... that raising the boy is more 'expensive'. "You have to buy him a home and save money for him and raise his children.... dowry in case of girl is not even an issue, You spent nearly same money on a marriage whether it is a boy or a girl.... something of that sort." It made perfect sense to me.
So, saying that infanticide occurs because people see girl as a burden is inappropriate. A boy is equal (or heavier) burden to his parents!!

Even if there is a blanket ban (in letter and spirit) on gender testing facilities in clinics , it won't eliminate the skewed sex-ratio.

It is no secret that size of a family decreases with increase in its financial condition. A poor man can afford a big family but a rich man (middle class) can't.
better economy, and expanding middle class--> we have lot of couples who want to have a small family (1 kid or 2 kid maximum) BUT a boy is must!!

---------------
So, it goes-->1 (a): If first child is a boy: no more kid or may be one more (irrespective of gender).
1 (b): if child is a girl: Another kid is must.
2 (a) If second child is boy. End of the story. No more kid. We can not afford a bigger family.
2 (b): If Girl, we need another kid.

and I believe: after two-three girl kids, this gender-testing clinics come in to picture. But most of damage has occurred already in first two 'steps'. Any subsequent 'step', decreases the probability by factor of 2; hence less and lesser effective in disturbing the girl-boy ratio.

-------------------
No wonder, i see in my family/friend circle: One boy+One girl, Two Boy, Only boy, Two girls+ one Boy. (probability in decreasing order). But never see: Only one girl or only two girls. {though know a couple with three kid all girls}.

If given the full data (number of kids, their genders and order in which they were born in individual families in an area), One can actually estimate the number of female-infanticide!! I won't be surprised if it turn out be a very low % of total girl- deficiency.


Yester-generations, bigger families with 5-6 child, statistic took good care of this 'problem'.

Anyhow, this deep rooted 'desire' of a boy (and hence a prejudice, albeit indirect, against girl) is what I believe is the main reason of this abysmal sex-ratio.

Reason: Only reason I see is Patriarchal society. [and that is the reason why we don't see such skewed ratio in southern states where the population growth is more or less as in haryana and punjab.]

I read somewhere that this problem in china and northern india had something to do with the myths/ traditions that son is supposed to salvage the parents in their afterlives, pitara ne paani dena etc. Seems right to me!!

Wonder what it will take for parents to understand the fact that a girl can take their family name forward!? OR that they are no monarchs whose raaj-paat will go to padosi rajay!!
Girls using their surnames even after marriage (eg. Aishwarya Rai Bachchan) could be a step in right direction.

I am really not aware but just want to know.. Are Jats asking for reservation in private job sector also?

Bhaai Yudhvir, I have seen you raising this issue earlier also. {Private sector provide more jobs as compared to govt and hence reservation is not that effective etc.}

Do you really think that Private sector is reservation-immune?
In India, reservation is provided in the educational institutes also. Plus there are very few good institutes and number of applicants is very very large. your argument would have been true if there was no reservation in educational institutes. But that is not the case. You are well aware if one gets in IITs or NITs, very good chances are there for him/her to succeed in life. Anyway, this has already been discussed numerous times.

 

[shailendra]

If government can not give equal facilities to their kids, what options they have? When peaceful methods don't work, what should they do? We have no moral right to ask them to remainpeaceful if peaceful methods don't work.

RK^2

...Khalkhundeji, give them the direct hotline to the Naxals!... (Last heard those folks were going pretty successful with all their 'non-peaceful' endeavors....)

 

[kapdal]

कपिल जी की दलीले गौरतलब हैं |
समाज में सुधार की बहुत जरुरत हैं और यह आरक्षण भी इस सुधार की कड़ी का ही एक हिस्सा हैं |
यदि इतने बड़े पैमाने पर और आन्दोलनों की जरुरत पड़ी और उसके बावजूद भी जाट कामयाब नहीं हुए तो फिर जाट अपने आप को मरा समझे | अलग मुल्क का तो फिर सवाल ही नहीं उठता क्योंकि उसके लिए बहुत बड़ी जंग लड़नी पड़ती हैं |
आपके हिसाब से आरक्षण लेने में कोई हर्ज़ हैं ? यदि हैं तो क्या हर्ज़ हैं ?
हमारे समाज में समस्या क्या हैं की इसमें दो तबके हो गए एक वो जो मजबूर होकर अपने हक के लिए पानी रोकते हैं उनकी तादाद ज्यादा हैं और एक आप लोगो का जो खामखा का या काम का पता नहीं पर गुणा जोड़ घटा करते रहते हैं | ज़मीनी हकीक़त से आप लोगो का कोई सरोकार नहीं होता इसलिए आपलोगों का गुणा जोड़ घटा कही कोई मायेने नहीं रखता |
मोर साहब जहा तक मैंने देखा हैं आप लोग अखबारी ज्ञान के हिसाब से तर्क करते हैं | मेरी आपसे गुजारिश हैं के जब भी आप भारत आये तो अपने कीमती समय में से एक हफ्ता मुझे दे ताकि मैं आपको असली नजारा दिखा संकू की ये जाट नेता (राजनीति वाले नहीं) हमारी कौम की भलाई के लिए क्या सोच रखते हैं और क्या क्या कदम उठा रहे हैं आरक्षण के इलावा | उस तजुर्बे के बाद आप यहाँ तर्क करे |

योगी जी, जानके प्रसन्नता हुई कि आपको ज़मीनी हकीकत का तजुर्बा है और आप जाट नेताओं से परिचित हैं | पर शायद आपको जान के आश्चर्य होगा कि हम भी चाँद से नहीं आये हैं | शायद थोडा बहुत ज्ञान अपनी रिश्तेदारी के गाँवों में जाके और वहाँ लोगों से बातचीत करके भी लगता होगा ? मैं आपके न्योते का आभार प्रकट करता हूँ पर माफ़ कीजियेगा उस एक हफ्ते में मेरे पास "असली नज़ारा" देखने के बहुत माध्यम होते हैं और वहाँ मैं निःसंकोच वाद विवाद भी कर सकता हूँ |

आपका दो तबके वाला सिद्धांत भी उचित नहीं है | क्यूंकि अगर मान भी लिया जाए कि ऐसे दो तबके हैं तो दूसरा तबका पहले तबके को कुछ करने से रोक नहीं पाता | जैसा आपने कहा, वोह तो खामखा की दूर से जमा घटा जोड़ (अर्थात बकवाद) करने में व्यस्त रहता है | तो समस्या किस बात की ?

 

[kapdal]

देश की आज़ादी को लेने में तकरीबन 90 साल लग गए थे | वो तो विश्व युद्ध के कारण मिल गई नहीं तो न जाने कितना वक़्त और लगता तो क्या वहा भी यह "time frame " वाले सवाल को लेकर चलना चाहिए था लोगो को ?
फिर गुणा जोड़ घटा में फंस गया भाई | प्लान "B " का भी बता दूंगा सब्र कर | "A " में ही लोगो को पसीना आ गया | अभी तक तो लोगो को "A" के नतीजे का ही नहीं पता लगा अच्छी तरह से यहाँ पर , तुम्हे पता हो तो बता दो ? "B " पर आ खड़ा हुआ | 10 जुलाई तक सब्र रख | अब A B C D सारी जल्दी आगे आनेवाली हैं |

भाई मेरे, यह भी एक नयी बात ही सुनी की आरक्षण का आन्दोलन देश की आजादी के आन्दोलन से तुलना रखता है. खैर, अब यहाँ विचित्र विचारधाराएं देख के मैं भौचक्का नहीं होता.

मेरे ख्याल से आरक्षण की मांग इसलिए है कि एक गुट का मानना है कि इससे जाट समुदाय का लाभ होगा. न कि इसलिए कि अब तो हमें चाबी लग गयी है, और गाडी तभी रुकेगी जब वोह अपनी मंजिल पे पहुचेगी. मैंने तो अपनी पिछली दलील में आरक्षण के खिलाफ कुछ कहा भी नहीं था. सिर्फ यह पूछा था कि संघर्ष कि कोई सीमा रेखा है कि नहीं. क्यूंकि हर चीज़ का एक समय होता है. अगर आपके हिसाब से हम सौ साल तक लड़ेंगे अगर हमें लड़ना पड़े, तो कोई भी सामान्य बुद्धि का आदमी भी बता देगा कि यह मूर्खता है. यह कोई इज्ज़त का सवाल तो है नहीं कि हम आरक्षित है कि नहीं- मैं मानता हूँ कि आरक्षित होने से हमारी इज्ज़त घाट नहीं होगी, पर बढ़ भी तो नहीं जायेगी ! तो लड़ने का तभी तक फायदा होगा न जब तक आरक्षण से समुदाय को कोई लाभ है ?

जान पड़ता है आप तो तन मन धन से इस ध्येय के लिए समर्पित हैं | जैसा मैंने पिछली दलील में कहा था कि पेशेवर आन्दोलनकारियों पे मेरा तर्क लागू नहीं होता. पर जो नौजवान आपके संघर्ष का हिस्सा बन रहा है जिससे उसे इसके परिणाम से कुछ फायदा हो, उसके लिए तो यह सवाल जायज़ है. उसके घर का चूल्हा सत्तरह साल संघर्ष करने से नहीं चलने वाला- और आपको याद होगा कि आरक्षण कि मांग उसके घर के चूल्हे कि दुहाई पे खड़ी है. तो जो भी नेता उससे आन्दोलन के लिए प्रेरित कर रहा है, उसका फ़र्ज़ बनता है कि वोह प्लान बी सोचे. आखिर में यही कहूँगा कि जिनके पास उत्तर होते हैं वोह सवाल पूछने वालों को खारिज नहीं करते.

 

[virj]

Let me try.

1. Female infanticide. It is foolish to ignore the lowest ratio in the country and/or attribute it to some make-believe factors. I have no qualms in admitting that I have seen an overwhelming desire for a male child in most of my relations. Having a preference either ways is natural. But in our society it goes to an extreme, where people actually express sympathy on a girl child and congratulatory messages on a male child. And in more extreme cases, to not letting the female child take birth. The issue has to be taken up before it causes irreparable damage.

2. Education. The villages have no good schools to speak of. Any amount of reservation taken in name of village kids is not going to help those who drop out at 5th/8th/10th/12th level. Those who do finish school would still be competing with urban reserved population. Some would obviously manage to get through and sadly would be used as examples of how the reservations worked. In my book, if reservations benefit 10% rural population and 90% urban population, then it is a big time failure. Anyways, assuming Jat parties manage to get reservations, for it to benefit the rural population, the rural students need to have a good foundation. I think no one should argue with that irrespective of their stand on reservations. The Jat parties need to think of solutions that suit the rural population the most. For example, private schools can be told to set up rural branches (need not be 1 per village, but 1 for a few closeby villages with a school bus network carrying children) and/or admitting rural students as a conditon for opening urban centers. The govt. can give education coupons to parents that can be used to pay fee in any school- the school still gets the same fee, but parents get to choose the school, thus leading to competition and hence better quality education. The money for this can be got from the subsidy that pays for sarkari schools and the corruption around them. There would be many more ideas that can be converted to demands and policies.

3. Rural economy including agriculture: Land holdings are getting smaller and smaller. There are too many people working on too little land. What do the Jat parties say on this? Just saying Jai Jawan, Jai Kisan is not going to change anything. If farmer has to get paid more, there has to be consolidation in agriculture and growing crops that sell. The middleman monopoly has to be broken by getting farmers access to final markets. Should be possible in this age. Through internet, a local representative should be able to find, anytime before sowing to harvesting, a buyer for the products and lock in a forward price. The price guaranteed, the farmer should be able to get loans/insurance from the banks. It should also remove the last minute pressure on the farmer to sell at a distressed price. Some automatic demand and employment opportunities can be created by setting up food processing industries. I am talking big picture here, devil would be in the detail. Undoubtedly, a lot would need to be done. But every big change has to start somewhere. I don't see anyone making demands on this apart from kneejerk demands for increasing the MSP for this and that.

4. Land Acquisition: Industries are needed to employ the whole population gainfully. But you also need to make sure that it doesn't lead to land grab by the rich and the powerful. And that it is not someone else's gain, and farmers' pain. Don't see any discussion on this. Whosoever is in power just announces some big projects and those who are out of power cry hoarse about corruption.

5. Infrastructure: Roads, electricity, water, railway lines, airports and the works in Jat areas. I mention it in 1 line but everything depends on these and these affect everything.

6. Sports: Jats are naturally good at sports. Mittal is supporting the boxing academy in Bhiwani. More investment and sponsorship could be sought from other industrial houses to make Bhiwani a world class boxing hub. Not only Jat boxers would benefit, but entire Bhiwani belt will. Young atheletes in any sports can be identified at an early age and provided with facilities/coaching so that they become world class. Money is not the issue it used to be. Cricket has become a profitable sport. The same can be true for other sports, if they are promoted. A whole industry can be set around sports and Jat areas can lead the way.

There are more points to add to the list, but as a start, this is enough.

Great. We all knows that these issues need attention. My question was to some particular reference as a few people objected discussing Khap, reservation , Hma etc etc. Let me try to explain.

Why do u have problem if someone discuss this. You carry on with this good agenda and ignore the meetings and threads where other non important things are discussed. Wont that help? Cant all this issues go side by side. The people who are really working agaist female foeticide has no problem when khap, hma and other issues are discused so y the people who doesnt work for against F.F. Its an Internet forum and its easy to ignore threads which u dont like?

 

[piush_tomar]

Piyush,

Looks like that I dont read same newspapers as you. May be you can post the links next time. Your statement that Ajit is not supporting Jat reservation forced me to do some search and here is what I found. This is totally opposite to what you have been claiming so far. It is not necessary that every jat leader or party has to agree the way Yashpal Malik is going for jat reservation. He has his own way to achieve the goal and other might have their own way:

Now read:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/CM-supports-Jats-OBC-demand/Article1-557653.aspx
CM supports Jats' OBC demand
Excerpts:
"Report from Meerut said that Rashtriya Lok Dal and other Jat stalwarts have distanced themselves from closure of water supply to Delhi from Muradnagar Plant of Ghaziabad on Sunday."
"They (protestors) had full support of the district administration", blamed Yashbeer Singh, president of RLD's district unit. BSP supported the move of Samiti only to scuttle Ajit Singh's efforts to seek reservation for Jats in the centre, added Singh distancing his party from any move which is troublesome for people.
" We do not support any acts like closure of water", he insisted.
While supporting reservation for Jats in the centre Bhartiya Kisan Union spokesman Rakesh Tikait, said "such violent actions maligns the image of entire community ".
"Instead of creating troubles for people we should adopt the method of conversation to get our demands fulfilled", he quipped.
BKU chief Mahendra Singh Tikait and national general secretary of All India Jat Mahasabha Yudhveer Singh also have condemned stoppage of water supply to Delhi."

None of these leaders have made any statement against jat reservation, they were just opposed to the method adopted at Muradnagar.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-RLD-before-UP-polls-/articleshow/6013113.cms
Ajit bargains hard as Cong courts RLD before UP polls
"The returns expected by RLD could be interesting. Sources said while a Bharat Ratna for Charan Singh, former prime minister and father of RLD chief Ajit Singh, will send out the “right message” to “farmers community”, the process can be sweetened by extending reservation to Jat community at the Centre."

Piyush,
I think that just claiming that Ajit is opposed to reservation is a mere propaganda by you. You fully support Yashpal Malik and be all ga ga about him here but my only request is that you do not have to do that by maligning others.

Vijay,

No people shld know the truth, who told this in news paper? as per news paper" "Report from Meerut said that Rashtriya Lok Dal and other Jat stalwarts have distanced themselves from closure of water supply to Delhi from Muradnagar Plant of Ghaziabad on Sunday."
"They (protestors) had full support of the district administration", blamed Yashbeer Singh, president of RLD's district unit. BSP supported the move of Samiti only to scuttle Ajit Singh's efforts to seek reservation for Jats in the centre, added Singh distancing his party from any move which is troublesome for people.
" We do not support any acts like closure of water", he insisted.
wok kya tha jab RLD neta ne dilli ke trafic ko JAM kar diya tha? kya jab dilli ki public ko paeshani nahi hui thi?RLD has majaority of only JAT supporter why ajit singh party worker instructing local jat villager not to go at dharna. Kya yeh RLD wale chamar ho gaye the jab?JATS should welcome if any party support it.
YOU STILL NOT ANSWER THIS HOW MANY TIMES AJIT SINGH(RLD JAT PARTY) ASKED ANY QUESTION RELATED TO JAT OBC STATUS IN LOK SABHA? JAT Arakshan sangarsh samiti aneko bar JAT MP se ke chuki hai ke sansad mein is maang ko uthaao..par nahi utha rahe? CONGRESS YEH NAHI POOCHEGI KI BHAI TUMNE KITNEY BAAR IS DEMAND KO UTHAYA?
HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL AGREE ON THIS BHARAT RATNA FOR CHARAN SINGH AND JAT OBC DEMAND HAS ANY LINK AND MEANING? IF GOVT. AGREE ON BHARAT RATNA TO CHARAN SINGH AND REJECT JAT OBC DEMAND AND VISE VERSA THAN?WHAT ABT HARIT PRADESH? THIS IS THE BLOODY POLTICS DEMAND WOHH RAKHO JO PURI NA HO? CONGRESS WILL TAKE AJIT ON THEIR TERM NOT ON AJIT TERMS. AJIT SINGH GAVE THIS STATEMENT AS JAT IN UP HAS KNEW THIS "SHADYANTRA"

 

[kapdal]

Kapil, low sex-ratio is a huge issue...

Sunil,

First of all, I was not doing a comprehensive analysis of any issue like you attempted, but merely listing the other important issues that Jat people have and should be raised by Jat parties, as Vipin had asked. Nevertheless, thanks for correcting me, the low sex ratio is technically the correct phrase to use as female infanticide is a cause, possibly one of a few.

I'd like to make the following points on your arguments:

1. Your argument that poor have more children than the rich seems correct from observation. But how do you apply that to Haryana? Would you divide this as more children for rural folks versus lesser for urban? If that's the case, then Haryana is only 28% urban. Then a vast majority should have more children. However, these days even rural folks are decreasing the number of children. So it is important to know who are the "poor" in your theory as Haryana doesn't have the poverty to the extent Bimaru states have.

2. What your friend told you was interesting, but was just one anecdote. So we can't derive from there that people don't see girl child as a burden. A boy may be a bigger burden in reality, but how many people think that ways. Personally, I have heard this for the first time. What is beyond debate is that there is an overwhelming desire for male child. Whether that is because of cultural factor X or economic factor Y or social factor Z, is arguable. But the fact is real. Now the question is how many people just desire a boy and how many can live with nothing but a boy. I have no expertise in this field. I don't know many female infanticide cases. But it may be a bit naive to dismiss it as "rare extreme". It can happen at a reasonably early stage of pregnancy and it can always be colored as a mishap. No one would advertise it obviously. So there can be quite a few reasons why we don't see or hear about this.

3. I had almost bought your theory on why the ratio is lower because of the steps you described, till I tested it. By the algorithm you described, one should have exactly same number of boys as girls. Let's divide your algorithm into cases where a couple decides to stop having kids as soon as they have a) 1 boy or 2 kids, b) 1 boy or 3 kids, c) 1 boy or 4 kids, d) 2 boys or 3 kids and e) 2 boys or 4 kids.

The case a) can be split into 3 sub cases with probabilities in bracket- 0 girl 1 boy (50%), 1 girl 1 boy (25%), 2 girl 0 boy (25%). Then you multiply no. of girls in each subcase to the probability of that subcase and sum it across all subcases. Ditto for boys. You get 0.75 for both boys and girls. That is if 1000 families followed this, then you should have got 750 boys and 750 girls.

The case a) can be split into 3 sub cases with probabilities in bracket- 0 girl 1 boy (50%), 1 girl 1 boy (25%), 2 girl 1 boy (12.5%), 3 girl 0 boy (12.5%). Same process as above. For 1000 families, you'd have 875 boys and 875 girls.

Same can be done for other cases.

One reason you may be seeing a different result is because you didn't have any 2 girl or 3 girl situations. If it is strictly algorithmic like above, you should have those situations. In fact, the 1 boy or 3 kids scenario has 12.5% "3 girls" scenarios by probability theory.

As you said, in the real world, you don't see many people with only 2 girls or 3 girls. If it was purely algorithmic (or upto fate/nature/god), you should have seen that. So what gives? That's why I think female infanticide be more of an issue than it seems on the surface through our "knowledge" of such events.

PS: I am editing this much after the main post. I have used infanticide in the above post, which is incorrect. I meant to use foeticide. Infanticide is killing a live infant, which I think would be much much rarer than foeticide, which is aborting an unborn foetus.

 

[kapdal]

Great. We all knows that these issues need attention. My question was to some particular reference as a few people objected discussing Khap, reservation , Hma etc etc. Let me try to explain.

Why do u have problem if someone discuss this. You carry on with this good agenda and ignore the meetings and threads where other non important things are discussed. Wont that help? Cant all this issues go side by side. The people who are really working agaist female foeticide has no problem when khap, hma and other issues are discused so y the people who doesnt work for against F.F. Its an Internet forum and its easy to ignore threads which u dont like?

I have never objected to any discussion. You asked a question that seemed to suggest that only you had topics relevant to Jats in your mind. Hence, I answered. I never asked you or anyone else to stop discussing this or that.

If someone did say rhetorically, that is this all Jats have to care about, it is not as if he has come and put a band aid on your mouth or chained your hands from writing. It is also an argument to say that there are better things to care about. To give another example- 3 political parties may be engaged in a debate. One may promise temple/mosque. The other may say, oh that is not worth caring about, I'd give you reservations and social justice. And third may say, oh that is not worth caring about, I'd give you bijli, sadak, paani. Comparison is legitimate.

So basically it boils down to an argument you don't like. And your suggestion is that those who give arguments that you don't like, should not participate on that thread. If you are participating on any thread on an open forum, you should be prepared to listen to all sorts of opposing arguments. If not, then you should form a closed group, where membership is strictly on basis of assent. There you can get participation on a thread purely on basis of acceptance of your agenda in toto. There are many options- google group, yahoo group, etc. etc. If JL gives some sort of emotional touch, then you have member groups here as well.

Now, I don't really believe all that is needed. This is not Mao land. We are all mature adults here (hopefully, anyways). People are free to say what they want to say. They are only saying what they believe in. They are not physically going and stopping any morcha or agenda. Some do argue with quite an unnecessary bitterness (remember gidd, siyar and jaychand?), and it is sad. But then don't you cheer them when they are on your side?

 

[sidchhikara]

Pehla e bijli paani nahi aata ... common wealth mein aur satya naash ho jaaga.
Common wealth ka kise ne naam bhi nahi suna ...... koi importance nahi sei in games ki.

South Africa world cup host kar rhya sei ... China Olympic host kar gaya ..... kutta bhi naa bujhta common walth ne.

Aus, england apne top athlete bhejte bhi konya inme .... faaltu bakwaas......... govt minister err babu ke corruption ka saadhan se ye Games.

 

[virj]

I have never objected to any discussion.

First I must admit i didnt read ur full post so if i miss anything Sorry.

I will answer the thing which was relevant to my post.

Did i ask that question to u? I already said it was for a particular instance. I didnt suggest anything. If u take this out of reference than it can mean anything. It was for a particular instance which happened earlier( on other threads as well)

What i mean is i appreaciate critical analysis by anyone but ridiculing the topic itself isnt good. Any topic which is important for someone doesnt have to be important for other thats all i mean. Nothing more nothing less. If anyone raise any issue here or anywhere on street , it might be important or top prirotiy for him
My post wasnt directed to u? I didnt say anything for or against "pani roko" or any other thing.

I dont know why you are talking all this. Did i say u have to agree with me? I appreciate different viewpoints on a particular topic. Nor I said siyar or any such things to anyone.

 

[vijay123]

I dont have any option but rely on e-newspapers. Whom should I believe if not newspapers? you? Why are you even questioning me on how many times Ajit or any xyz leader asked question related to jat OBC status? You should ask this from Ajit Singh. Mera Ajit koi rishtedaar nahi lagata, na mujhe uske haarne ya jeetne se farak padta, but that doesn't mean u keep maligning him by putting baseless allegations and be ga ga over yashpal malik. Jis din Yashpal Malik kahin se MLA ya MP ban jayega woh bhi baki neta jaisa hi ban jaayega. Yeh sabhi log Neta bante hi badal jaate hai, Yashpal Malik koi chaand par se nahi aaya hai. Tum log to ab Ch. Charan Singh ko bhi nahi baksh rahe jiski gaon mei aaj bhi sabhi bade buddhe log itni izzat karte hai. I still remember the day he died, I was very young then and his cremation proceedings were being telecasted on TV, there were around 2 lakh people who assembled to take part in his shav-yaatra. Or aaj yahan site par log unka naam aise likh rahe hai jaise kisi 2-4 saal ke bache ka likh rahe ho. Jat Aarakshan Samiti ne kya Haryana CM se nahi kaha ki Jats ko state level par to reservation de do pehle, agar central govt yeh poochegi ki Haryana mei Jats ki majority or CM hote huey jab wahan ke log aarakshan nahi maang rahe to central level par kyun? Why not Aaraskhan Samiti agitating from the parts of Haryana districts adjoining Delhi? Having a jat CM there, they would be getting much more support in that part. All this is part of politics, but baat wahi hai, Yashpal kare to pyar or Ajit kare to .......

Vijay,

No people shld know the truth, who told this in news paper? as per news paper" "Report from Meerut said that Rashtriya Lok Dal and other Jat stalwarts have distanced themselves from closure of water supply to Delhi from Muradnagar Plant of Ghaziabad on Sunday."
"They (protestors) had full support of the district administration", blamed Yashbeer Singh, president of RLD's district unit. BSP supported the move of Samiti only to scuttle Ajit Singh's efforts to seek reservation for Jats in the centre, added Singh distancing his party from any move which is troublesome for people.
" We do not support any acts like closure of water", he insisted.
wok kya tha jab RLD neta ne dilli ke trafic ko JAM kar diya tha? kya jab dilli ki public ko paeshani nahi hui thi?RLD has majaority of only JAT supporter why ajit singh party worker instructing local jat villager not to go at dharna. Kya yeh RLD wale chamar ho gaye the jab?JATS should welcome if any party support it.
YOU STILL NOT ANSWER THIS HOW MANY TIMES AJIT SINGH(RLD JAT PARTY) ASKED ANY QUESTION RELATED TO JAT OBC STATUS IN LOK SABHA? JAT Arakshan sangarsh samiti aneko bar JAT MP se ke chuki hai ke sansad mein is maang ko uthaao..par nahi utha rahe? CONGRESS YEH NAHI POOCHEGI KI BHAI TUMNE KITNEY BAAR IS DEMAND KO UTHAYA?
HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL AGREE ON THIS BHARAT RATNA FOR CHARAN SINGH AND JAT OBC DEMAND HAS ANY LINK AND MEANING? IF GOVT. AGREE ON BHARAT RATNA TO CHARAN SINGH AND REJECT JAT OBC DEMAND AND VISE VERSA THAN?WHAT ABT HARIT PRADESH? THIS IS THE BLOODY POLTICS DEMAND WOHH RAKHO JO PURI NA HO? CONGRESS WILL TAKE AJIT ON THEIR TERM NOT ON AJIT TERMS. AJIT SINGH GAVE THIS STATEMENT AS JAT IN UP HAS KNEW THIS "SHADYANTRA"

 

[virj]

You asked a question that seemed to suggest that only you had topics relevant to Jats in your mind. Hence, I answered.

This seems to suggest thing is the problem. The reality is I didnt suggest that. U misunderstood because u answered a question which wasnt for u.

Now i read u mentioned Moa as well. Am i supposed to laugh or cry at this

If my last two post make sense to u its great if not its more great but no need to reply to this as this was just an explaination and doesnt need reply. If u have more issues or need more clarification throw a Private mail.

 

[vijay123]

...and did I say anything to you that made you jump in my discussion with Piyush. Neither did I said anything about pani roko. I was replying to some allegations a member has made against a particular Jat leader. There was nothing related to khap, HMA etc in that but you jumped into it and tried to take it in a different direction, and now you are whining.

Did i ask that question to u?

My post wasnt directed to u? I didnt say anything for or against "pani roko" or any other thing.

 

[virj]

You did say that here and hence i quoted u and u also said that in HMA thread. Do u want me to find the link and paste here?

 

[vijay123]

If in a different thread I say that HMA is not the only issue for jat parties than I still stand for that. What is wrong in what I said? Have you ever heard of it being there in the manifest of Jat parties like INLD and RLD? Those are the people who are answerable on this and not me. For you HMA could be a priority, for me it could be a different issue, when I talk to my mom who live in Gurgaon, she keep mentioning about rising prices and chaotic traffic situation. For her that is an issue. For someone who is unemployed, unemployment is an issue on priority rather than HMA. There is this thread in Current Affairs section:

"Should the Govt amend HMA to ban 'same-gotra' marriage"?


This was started by you, first you ask that should the govt amend HMA or not and when people put forward their arguments then you expect that all arguments should be in favor. Why do you ask for debate on such topics? Just take out a fatwa saying that no one should be saying anything against amendment. There are people who even raised questions on the Jat credentials of the people who voted or said anything against HMA amendment. You are bringing things from that thread even here. Some even go to the extent of taunting people with new adjectives like neo-liberal, ultra modern etc etc, but when in the same sense they shot back using adjectives like talibani, fatwas, etc, then they start crying.

You did say that here and hence i quoted u and u also said that in HMA thread. Do u want me to find the link and paste here?

 

[virj]

Where you want to take this now. My post was merely in reference to your post in this thread and other thread. (the below is from HMA thread in reply to my post

More than one guy has also said similar thing and hence i posted that post.

Did anyone ask u to waste ur energies on these issues? Thats all what i said. From where this talibani and maovadi stuff came in??

If u want to take it further, i have no problem.

Only thing is why to bother and waste our energies on such trivial issues which do not impact any of us. There are so many issues to focus on - education, electricity, infrastructure, dowry, poverty, corruption etc. When there wont be these issues left then definitely people can focus on these kind of issues too.

Did i say you cant have opposing views? On contrary i appreciate opposing views

 

[raka]

http://in.jagran. yahoo.com/ news/local/ uttarpradesh/ 4_1_6495867. html

जाटों को आरक्षण जरूरी : टिकैत

​

Jun 16, 01:26 am
बताएं

सिसौली (मुजफ्फरनगर)। जाट आरक्षण को लेकर भाकियू सुप्रीमो चौधरी महेंद्र सिंह टिकैत भी 'जंग' की तैयारी में हैं। उन्होंने कहा कि जाटों को आबादी के आधार पर आरक्षण मिलना ही चाहिए।
जाट आरक्षण मुद्दे पर भाकियू सुप्रीमो से हुई वार्ता के प्रमुख अंश-
जागरण : क्या जाटों को आरक्षण की जरूरत है?
टिकैत : जाट बिरादरी की जनसंख्या पहले से अधिक बढ़ गई है। अन्य बिरादरियों से नौकरियों की प्रतिस्पद्र्धा में पिछड़ने के कारण जाट सामाजिक रूप से पिछड़ते जा रहे हैं। इसलिए उन्हें आरक्षण मिलना चाहिए।
जागरण : सामाजिक, आर्थिक और राजनीतिक रूप से क्या जाट समुदाय पिछड़ा है?
टिकैत : जनसंख्या बढ़ने के कारण कृषि जोत घटी है। इसके चलते जाटों की आर्थिक स्थित बिगड़ रही है। राजनीति में भी गिनती के ही जाट नेता हैं। इसलिए सामाजिक स्थिति का आकलन आप खुद कर लें।
जागरण : जाटों को आरक्षण कितना कारगर होगा?
टिकैत : आरक्षण के अभाव में जाटों के बच्चे बेरोजगार घूम रहे हैं। निठल्ले युवक अपराध की दलदल में धंस रहे हैं। केंद्र में आरक्षण मिलने पर जाटों को सरकारी नौकरियों में ज्यादा अवसर मिलेंगे।
जागरण : जिस आधार पर जाट आरक्षण मांग रहे हैं, क्या उन्हें किसी अन्य तरीके से सुलझाना संभव नहीं है?
टिकैत : सरकारी नौकरियों में जाट बिरादरी के बच्चों को खूब अवसर दिया जाए। मलाल सिर्फ यह है कि अन्य बिरादरी के बच्चे जाट बिरादरी के काबिल बच्चे को आरक्षण की दौड़ में पछाड़ रहे हैं।
जागरण : आरक्षण से क्या जातिविहीन समाज का सपना और दूर नहीं हो जाएगा?
टिकैत : आरक्षण मिलने से तो जातिविहीन समाज का सपना पूरा होगा। केंद्र में आरक्षण मिलने से अन्य बिरादरी भी जाट के समकक्ष हो जाएंगी।
जागरण : आरक्षण की मांग पर आपकी क्या रणनीति है?
टिकैत : यशपाल मलिक ने आरक्षण के आंदोलन का जो बिगुल फूंका है वह काबिल-ए-तारीफ है। आरक्षण की मांग में भाकियू भी पीछे नहीं रहेगा। रालोद सुप्रीमो अजित सिंह अभी भले चुप हैं, लेकिन वह भी इस जंग में कूदेंगे

​

 

[piush_tomar]

In Parliament

I dont have any option but rely on e-newspapers. Whom should I believe if not newspapers? you? Why are you even questioning me on how many times Ajit or any xyz leader asked question related to jat OBC status? You should ask this from Ajit Singh. Mera Ajit koi rishtedaar nahi lagata, na mujhe uske haarne ya jeetne se farak padta, but that doesn't mean u keep maligning him by putting baseless allegations and be ga ga over yashpal malik. Jis din Yashpal Malik kahin se MLA ya MP ban jayega woh bhi baki neta jaisa hi ban jaayega. Yeh sabhi log Neta bante hi badal jaate hai, Yashpal Malik koi chaand par se nahi aaya hai. Tum log to ab Ch. Charan Singh ko bhi nahi baksh rahe jiski gaon mei aaj bhi sabhi bade buddhe log itni izzat karte hai. I still remember the day he died, I was very young then and his cremation proceedings were being telecasted on TV, there were around 2 lakh people who assembled to take part in his shav-yaatra. Or aaj yahan site par log unka naam aise likh rahe hai jaise kisi 2-4 saal ke bache ka likh rahe ho. Jat Aarakshan Samiti ne kya Haryana CM se nahi kaha ki Jats ko state level par to reservation de do pehle, agar central govt yeh poochegi ki Haryana mei Jats ki majority or CM hote huey jab wahan ke log aarakshan nahi maang rahe to central level par kyun? Why not Aaraskhan Samiti agitating from the parts of Haryana districts adjoining Delhi? Having a jat CM there, they would be getting much more support in that part. All this is part of politics, but baat wahi hai, Yashpal kare to pyar or Ajit kare to .......

Kal ko kaun kya hoga yeh pehel se kyo bol rahe ho? I am talking about what had happend earlier? You still did;nt reply How many times Ajit singh or his son Jayant chaudhary raise this issue in parliament despite urging them number of time that they shld raise this issue in parliament. We will support you all the way? Is not a filthy politics? Jis JAT community ne aapko itna samman diya hay uske liye sawal poochna aapke liye gunaha ho gaya hai? Jis jat jati ne aapko khule aam crore of ruppee chanda diya uske liye aap sawal nahi kar rahe? kyo? Vijay now mobile, newspaper, cable network, internet all is going in village pehel logon ko pata nahi tha magar aaj information second mein jati hey ..TIME has changed now.