drrajpalsingh
New member
It would be better for us to concentrate on identification of the River 'Sarasvati'. The mythology relating to gods and goddesses would. perhaps, distract our vision fixed on the issue of the thread.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Rigvedic River Sarswati In India or Iran
- Thread starter drrajpalsingh
- Start date
drrajpalsingh
New member
Kaurava Capital and Lost Sarasvati.
Does there exist some connection between the two; let us see what various authors say in this regard.
As to the identification of the capital of the Kurus, some authors identify the maunds of Asandh whereas others have identified it with the maunds of Mrzapur. There are still others who claim that Hastinapur in Meerut district was the capital of the Kurus. But the archaeological findings from the place have yielded no such evidence as to substantiate the statement that this place was ever a capital. Only signs of flood are reported from the place which are taken to mean that in the post Mahabharata period the capital of the Kurus was shifted to Kausambhi near Allahabad.
If this last surmise is accepted as true then could we conjecture the origin of a very important Myth; that, the ancient 'Sarasvati' also followed them and became one with Yamuna and Ganga at Sangam leading to holding of holy fair of Kumbha at this confluence of three sacred rivers.
Does there exist some connection between the two; let us see what various authors say in this regard.
As to the identification of the capital of the Kurus, some authors identify the maunds of Asandh whereas others have identified it with the maunds of Mrzapur. There are still others who claim that Hastinapur in Meerut district was the capital of the Kurus. But the archaeological findings from the place have yielded no such evidence as to substantiate the statement that this place was ever a capital. Only signs of flood are reported from the place which are taken to mean that in the post Mahabharata period the capital of the Kurus was shifted to Kausambhi near Allahabad.
If this last surmise is accepted as true then could we conjecture the origin of a very important Myth; that, the ancient 'Sarasvati' also followed them and became one with Yamuna and Ganga at Sangam leading to holding of holy fair of Kumbha at this confluence of three sacred rivers.
Last edited:
Kaurava Capital and Lost Sarasvati.
Does there exist some connection between the two; let us see what various authors say in this regard.
As to the identification of the capital of the Kurus, some authors identify the maunds of Asandh whereas others have identified it with the maunds of Mrzapur. There are still others who claim that Hastinapur in Meerut district was the capital of the Kurus. But the archaeological findings from the place have yielded no such evidence as to substantiate the statement that this place was ever a capital. Only signs of flood are reported from the place which are taken to mean that in the post Mahabharata period the capital of the Kurus was shifted to Kausambhi near Allahabad.
If this last surmise is accepted as true then could we conjecture the origin of a very important Myth; that, the ancient 'Sarasvati' also followed them and became one with Yamuna and Ganga at Sangam leading to holding of holy fair of Kumbha at this confluence of three sacred rivers.
There are many contradictions in your assumptions;
1. Kauravs did not rule post Mahabharat and therefore question of shifting capital becomes irrelevant.
2. Mahabahart talks of nly Hastinapur as capital. Were areas of Asandh/ Mizapur ever known as Hastinapur any time in history?
3. What will happen to "Kurukshetra" if capital was near Allahabd?
4. Is there any mention of any Pandav or Kaurav ever taking bath in Saraswati or crossing it? Not to my knowledge.
RK^2
drrajpalsingh
New member
There are many contradictions in your assumptions;
1. Kauravs did not rule post Mahabharat and therefore question of shifting capital becomes irrelevant.
2. Mahabahart talks of nly Hastinapur as capital. Were areas of Asandh/ Mizapur ever known as Hastinapur any time in history?
3. What will happen to "Kurukshetra" if capital was near Allahabd?
4. Is there any mention of any Pandav or Kaurav ever taking bath in Saraswati or crossing it? Not to my knowledge.
RK^2
There are divergence of the opinions among historians on several issues regarding the original occurrence of the event of the battle 'Bharata' or popularly known as 'Mahabharata.
If we accept that it actually happened as Indian traditions recorded in our sources, in India, then, as per details given in the Puranas and Mahabharata epic and later day studies by the scholars, Kuru country or Kurukshetra and the Kuru dynasty some points emerge as :
Kauravas continued to rule after the Mahabharata battle.
The dynasty in this region was founded by Kuru and his grandson Janamejaya established the capital at Asandivat around 1850 B.C. Other rulers till the arrival of Santanu on scene were mere names as no achievements of theirs is found recorded in detail.
It was located in the east of Yamuna; and; across Yamuna lay the principality of Panchals.
The Panchals and Matsyas had matrimonial relations with the Pandavas and naturally sided with them. The battle was fought at the junction of the boundaries of the contending lands as northern and north-westerners were on the side of the Kurus and eastern and southerns sided with Pandavas.
Now known as Mirzapur village is near Kurukshetra University and formed a part of old Thanesar or Sthaneswar, now known as Kuruksherra. Asandivat and Mirzapur were never known as Hastinapur.
After the battle Yudhistra performed many a Yajanas and patronised the Brahmins till the time he handed over the ruling power to Prikshit, [son of Abhimanyu and retired with his brothers and Daropadi.
In the Kaurava dynasty after Prikshit, the other rulers were Janamejaya II, Shatanika, Asvamedhadatta, Adhisimakrishna, Nicakshu, Usna and Chitratha etc. This means several successors of Prikshit continued to rule for several years at various places and one of the branches of the Kuru dynasty established their capital at Kaushambhi near Allahabad/Prayag.
So far as these points are concerned there is no contradiction.
Yes, the original Hasatinapur, the capital of Dharitrashtra has yet to be satisfactorily identified by the archaeologists and historians as its other names are also floating in the contemporary literature as Gajahvayam, Nagasahavyam signifying Elephant.
Shifting of the capital to Kaushambhi by later day weakling Kurus would cause no damage to Kurukshetra.
As regards the 'bathing' habit of the Kuru-Pandava, nothing is known to me.
Last edited:
maddhan1979
Banned
Kaurava Capital and Lost Sarasvati.
Does there exist some connection between the two; let us see what various authors say in this regard.
As to the identification of the capital of the Kurus, some authors identify the maunds of Asandh whereas others have identified it with the maunds of Mrzapur. There are still others who claim that Hastinapur in Meerut district was the capital of the Kurus. But the archaeological findings from the place have yielded no such evidence as to substantiate the statement that this place was ever a capital. Only signs of flood are reported from the place which are taken to mean that in the post Mahabharata period the capital of the Kurus was shifted to Kausambhi near Allahabad.
If this last surmise is accepted as true then could we conjecture the origin of a very important Myth; that, the ancient 'Sarasvati' also followed them and became one with Yamuna and Ganga at Sangam leading to holding of holy fair of Kumbha at this confluence of three sacred rivers.
Has there been "Unbiased" archaeological dig ever done at the present sites of Hastinapur in Meerut?? I never heard any such news and even if it has been done, i am sure the dig would have been in a a very confined area. All these places should be at the places where they are at present because not only "Hastinapur" is located in Meerut but also other areas related with Mahabharata also located near by. Okey we can say "Hastinapur" is not the present hastinapur, then how come other city names related with Mahabharat exist near Meerut. Is it possible that that all the city names were changed to names similar to cities associate with Mahabharata? Which does not seem to be possible.
Again Dwarka is in Gujrat therefore most of the cities seem to lie in west of India.
Where is Gandhara ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhara
If we search list of villages in Mawana tahsil in Meerut district in Uttar Pradesh, we find [Wiki]Bana[/Wiki], [Wiki]Hastinapur[/Wiki] (NP) Hastinapur Kaurwan, Hastinapur Pandwan, Parichhatgarh, [Wiki]Parikshitgarh[/Wiki] (NP), [Wiki]Sujatpur[/Wiki], etc all the names related with characters in Mahabharata. It can not be a coincidence. All are in the west of Ganga Rivar.
Last edited:
drrajpalsingh
New member
If we search list of villages in Mawana tahsil in Meerut district in Uttar Pradesh, we find Bana, Hastinapur (NP) Hastinapur Kaurwan, Hastinapur Pandwan, Parichhatgarh, Parikshitgarh (NP), Sujatpur, etc all the names related with characters in Mahabharata. It can not be a coincidence. All are in the west of Ganga Rivar.
Good information on village names.
It would be good to learn about their antiquity, if any, supported by some sort of evidences.
maddhan1979
Banned
Good information on village names.
It would be good to learn about their antiquity, if any, supported by some sort of evidences.
Excellent,,it seems there will be a time to do some digging under the soil in future.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Excellent,,it seems there will be a time to do some digging under the soil in future.
Friend,
Archaeologists have already been doing it all over the world. If they do it in this region, there is no harm !
Thanks
View attachment 16606
This chapter from a book seems a relevant one. Although there is some work done through satellite remote sensing on exploring Saraswati river by Indian and Western scholars.
This one is for the GIS based exploration
http://www.gisdevelopment.net/application/archaeology/general/mi0537pf.htm
This chapter from a book seems a relevant one. Although there is some work done through satellite remote sensing on exploring Saraswati river by Indian and Western scholars.
This one is for the GIS based exploration
http://www.gisdevelopment.net/application/archaeology/general/mi0537pf.htm
Last edited:
drrajpalsingh
New member
A very interesting debate on Change of ''S'' into ''H'' available on an earlier thread :http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...s-Sak%E2-!-Persian-S-gt-H-is-a-false-notion-!
Very logical arguments put forward by Sarvashri D.N. Deswal and Ravi Chaudhary.
For ready reference relating to the issue being discussed kind attention of the readers is drawn to post No. 15 as reproduced hereinunder :
According to the post : "Sarasvati in India is Harahvati in Aghanistan."
If it is really so then a big question about the identify of Sarasvati river in Afghanistan which had become a bone of contention among the participants ultimately stands resolved !
Very logical arguments put forward by Sarvashri D.N. Deswal and Ravi Chaudhary.
For ready reference relating to the issue being discussed kind attention of the readers is drawn to post No. 15 as reproduced hereinunder :
I suspect you will tunnel yourself into a dead end.
The issue is not whether the Persians( and that too is a very loose term) knew the sound' s, sa' or not. They may well have.
The issue is rather that in many cases the sound S transforms into the H sound.
Sarasvati in India is Harahvati in Aghanistan.
Sapt in Haft.( 7)
Sindhu is Hindhu.
Sind is Hindh and so on.
The other dead end trap you are facing is the need to accept the concept of a "scythian".
That is largely a Greek derivative made popular by later colonial writers.
The term Saka is known to Indians, the term Scythian is not.
Best to stay clear of all this
Ravi Chaudhary
According to the post : "Sarasvati in India is Harahvati in Aghanistan."
If it is really so then a big question about the identify of Sarasvati river in Afghanistan which had become a bone of contention among the participants ultimately stands resolved !
Last edited:
A good discussion has taken place on Saraswati River and we are approaching unanimity so we can move away from Saraswati River now and concentrate on other topics.
Raviji has referred the concept of Scythians. Right now I am busy in Wikifying Hukum Singh Panwar's book on Jat history: the Chapter about Scythian origin of Jats is given below. Click to see it:
[wiki]The Jats:Their Origin, Antiquity and Migrations/The Scythic origin of the Jats[/wiki]
Raviji has referred the concept of Scythians. Right now I am busy in Wikifying Hukum Singh Panwar's book on Jat history: the Chapter about Scythian origin of Jats is given below. Click to see it:
[wiki]The Jats:Their Origin, Antiquity and Migrations/The Scythic origin of the Jats[/wiki]
drrajpalsingh
New member
Now, after identification of these two Sarasvati rivers, it is for the participants to find out how many more rivers are claimants to the coveted name : Sarasvati.
neerajschahar
New member
क्षमा कीजियेगा राजपाल जी, मेरे विचार से तो रवि जी के वाक्य से यह प्रतीत होता है कि अफगानिस्तान के व्यक्ति सरस्वती शब्द को हरस्वती से उच्चारित करते थे |
अब इससे आप ने ये कैसे साबित कर दिया कि अफगानिस्तान कि हरस्वती सरस्वती है ????????? कृपया इस प्रकार कि जल्दबाजी ना दिखाएँ |
कृपया यह भी याद रखा जावे कि रवि जी का मत यह भी है भारतवासी उनके ( ईरानियों/अफगानिस्तानियों ) के 'ह' को 'स' नहीं उच्चारित करते | और यदि ऐसा है तो कोई भी कारण नहीं प्रतीत होता कि किसी कि हरस्वती को बेकार ही सरस्वती बना दिया जाय | इस विचार कि काट का यदि आपके पास कोई उदाहरण हो तो इस bone of conetention को stands resolved कि स्थिति मैं लाने में स्वं आप की ही बड़ी सहायता हो जावेगी |
मेरे जैसे व्यक्ति इतिहास के अधिक जानकार नहीं हैं इसीलिए अधिक विचार नहीं रख पाते परन्तु साहब इस वाक्य को तो सन्दर्भ में लेने से ही समझ में आ रहा है कि किसी के कोट को गलत तरह से समझा गया है |
और यदि मेरे समझने में कोई गलती हुई है तों कृपया क्षमा करें और मेरी त्रुटि को संशोधित करें | धन्यवाद
अब इससे आप ने ये कैसे साबित कर दिया कि अफगानिस्तान कि हरस्वती सरस्वती है ????????? कृपया इस प्रकार कि जल्दबाजी ना दिखाएँ |
कृपया यह भी याद रखा जावे कि रवि जी का मत यह भी है भारतवासी उनके ( ईरानियों/अफगानिस्तानियों ) के 'ह' को 'स' नहीं उच्चारित करते | और यदि ऐसा है तो कोई भी कारण नहीं प्रतीत होता कि किसी कि हरस्वती को बेकार ही सरस्वती बना दिया जाय | इस विचार कि काट का यदि आपके पास कोई उदाहरण हो तो इस bone of conetention को stands resolved कि स्थिति मैं लाने में स्वं आप की ही बड़ी सहायता हो जावेगी |
मेरे जैसे व्यक्ति इतिहास के अधिक जानकार नहीं हैं इसीलिए अधिक विचार नहीं रख पाते परन्तु साहब इस वाक्य को तो सन्दर्भ में लेने से ही समझ में आ रहा है कि किसी के कोट को गलत तरह से समझा गया है |
और यदि मेरे समझने में कोई गलती हुई है तों कृपया क्षमा करें और मेरी त्रुटि को संशोधित करें | धन्यवाद
drrajpalsingh
New member
क्षमा कीजियेगा राजपाल जी, मेरे विचार से तो रवि जी के वाक्य से यह प्रतीत होता है कि अफगानिस्तान के व्यक्ति सरस्वती शब्द को हरस्वती से उच्चारित करते थे |
अब इससे आप ने ये कैसे साबित कर दिया कि अफगानिस्तान कि हरस्वती सरस्वती है ????????? कृपया इस प्रकार कि जल्दबाजी ना दिखाएँ |
कृपया यह भी याद रखा जावे कि रवि जी का मत यह भी है भारतवासी उनके ( ईरानियों/अफगानिस्तानियों ) के 'ह' को 'स' नहीं उच्चारित करते | और यदि ऐसा है तो कोई भी कारण नहीं प्रतीत होता कि किसी कि हरस्वती को बेकार ही सरस्वती बना दिया जाय | इस विचार कि काट का यदि आपके पास कोई उदाहरण हो तो इस bone of conetention को stands resolved कि स्थिति मैं लाने में स्वं आप की ही बड़ी सहायता हो जावेगी |
मेरे जैसे व्यक्ति इतिहास के अधिक जानकार नहीं हैं इसीलिए अधिक विचार नहीं रख पाते परन्तु साहब इस वाक्य को तो सन्दर्भ में लेने से ही समझ में आ रहा है कि किसी के कोट को गलत तरह से समझा गया है |
और यदि मेरे समझने में कोई गलती हुई है तों कृपया क्षमा करें और मेरी त्रुटि को संशोधित करें | धन्यवाद
Friend,
Welcome to Jatland history section discussion !
I have neither added nor edited any word to the quote under reference.
It is self explanatory and conveys presence of two synonymous rivers;
one in in India and another in Afghanistan : ''Sarasvati in India is Harahvati in Aghanistan.''
This is not all, there are many other claimants to the name of Sarasvati in India and abroad.
In the end, please leave aside what others say including myself, come out with your own view on the issue.
Thanks
Last edited:
drrajpalsingh
New member
While , Scholars who think in the autochathonus origin of the Aryans think that the name Sarasvati was carried westward by the outgoing Indo Aryans and the linguistic process involved was of the change of ''Sa'' to ''Ha''; whereas those who believe in the extra Indian Origin of the Aryans believe that the name Harkhaiti or Harahvaiti from Iran/ Afghanistan travelled with them to India and became Sarasvati with the linguistic change ''Ha'' to ''Sa''.
It would be good if some expert from the field of ancient languages could be found out to solve the riddle as to what process occurred about the naming of these two/three rivers.
However, it would be interesting to know that this is not the only problem related with identification of Sarasvati as there are many more river names which claim Sarasvati as their name.
It would be good if some expert from the field of ancient languages could be found out to solve the riddle as to what process occurred about the naming of these two/three rivers.
However, it would be interesting to know that this is not the only problem related with identification of Sarasvati as there are many more river names which claim Sarasvati as their name.
drrajpalsingh
New member
While , Scholars who think in the autochathonus origin of the Aryans think that the name Sarasvati was carried westward by the outgoing Indo Aryans and the linguistic process involved was of the change of ''Sa'' to ''Ha''; whereas those who believe in the extra Indian Origin of the Aryans believe that the name Harkhaiti or Harahvaiti from Iran/ Afghanistan travelled with them to India and became Sarasvati with the linguistic change ''Ha'' to ''Sa''.
It would be good if some expert from the field of ancient languages could be found out to solve the riddle as to what process occurred about the naming of these two/three rivers.
However, it would be interesting to know that this is not the only problem related with identification of Sarasvati as there are many more river names which claim Sarasvati as their name.
Some of the important rivers which bear the name Sarasvati are the Harkhaiti or Harahvaiti [as mentioned above] and also called the Arggandab or Helmand in Kandhar-Ararchocia, the Arbuda-sarsvati in Gujrat and the Thanesar Sarsvati near the city of Thanesar now also known as Kurukshetra.
Some of the important rivers which bear the name Sarasvati are the Harkhaiti or Harahvaiti [as mentioned above] and also called the Arggandab or Helmand in Kandhar-Ararchocia, the Arbuda-sarsvati in Gujrat and the Thanesar Sarsvati near the city of Thanesar now also known as Kurukshetra.
River with the same name existed in Bengal also;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswati_River_(Bengal)
This was a major river even in Bengal. Government is trying to revive it again;
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=56009
RK^2
drrajpalsingh
New member
River with the same name existed in Bengal also;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswati_River_(Bengal)
This was a major river even in Bengal. Government is trying to revive it again;
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=56009
RK^2
Thanks Friend for providing interesting links and bringing to light another Saraswati with two branches in Bengal.Full text of the Press release is produced below:
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Revival of Saraswati River[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Government of West Bengal has informed that historical Saraswati River has lost its draining capacity in most part of its length and now it is in moribund condition. As per the information received from the Government of West Bengal, the river has two limbs – one northward and another southward. The northern part is 34 kms long and the southern one is about 43 kms long. Both the parts join river Hoogly. The Government of West Bengal has further reported that the “Northern portion is comparatively in better health while the southern one has lost its draining capacity”.
The Government of West Bengal has formulated a scheme for revival of the southern part of the river Saraswati with estimated cost of Rs. 32.10 crores. The scheme has been approved for central assistance amounting to Rs. 24.07 crores and central assistance amounting to Rs. 2.72 crores has been released so far.
This information was given by the Minister of State for Water Resources Shri Vincent H.Pala in a written reply in the Lok Sabha today.
SK
(Release ID :56009)[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]