Scythian (Skythian) : Etymology

lrburdak said:
An Inquiry Into the Ethnography of Afghanistan by H. W. Bellew writes at page-90

"In the Afghan genealogies the Afridi are classed in the Kaki division of the Karai, Kararai, Kararani, or Karalanri branch of the Ghurghushti Afghan, along with the Khattak, Jadran, Utman, Khugiani, Shitak, Suleman, etc. The Karalanri is the same as the Turklanri, and comprises the two divisions of Kodi and Kaki ; of which the Kaki (perhaps the same as Kuki, a Naga tribe to be presently noticed), comprises the tribes above named ; and Kodi comprises the Dalahzak, Orakzi, Musa, Mangal, Tori, Hanni, Wardak, etc. The Afridi are said, by native accounts, to have been driven out of the plain country by the Dalahzak tribe, which was formerly very numerous and powerful, and the first tribe which penetrated from Kabul through the Khybar Pass into the Peshawar district, at that time called Bagram, after the name of its capital (the site of which is now covered by the British cantonment at Peshawar), which they seized from the Raja of Lahore, together with all the country up to the Indus, crossing which river they extended their conquests far to its eastward. They sent a strong contingent of their clans- men with the army of Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi in his expedition against Somnath, At the time of the Dalazak invasion, this part of eastern Afghanistan, the Peshawar valley and both banks of the Indus, was occupied by the Sur Kafir, or Surkh Kafir " the Red Infidels," supposed to be descendants of the Greeks who formerly held the whole country from Kabul to the river Jelam, or Jhelam, but probably including Surya or Surajbansi Rajput as well. These the Dalazak, who are said to be a Turk tribe in the following of Mahmud Ghaznavi, or of his father the celebrated Sabaktakin (but more likely a clan of the Jata Skythians, who dispossessed the Greeks), gradually forced out of the plain country up into the hills around, and mainly into the highlands of Swat and Boner, and the Khybar hills. The Dalahzak maintained their prosperity and renown to the time of Mikza Ulugh Beg, governor of Kabul — 1620-1545 A.D. — when they were dispossessed and expelled the country to the east bank of the Indus, to Chach and Pakli, by the Yusufzi and Ghorya tribes..."

Note that here again author writes Jat Scythians !!!!
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Nice efforts Laxman ji,

This hints about the conclusions that a very reputed scholar drew about the relation of Jats with Skythians.H W Bellew not only worked in Afghnistan but in areas like turkistan Iran and route along silk route.
In fact T D ForsytH writes in his introduction.....



But no one has gone into the History of Eastern Turkistan from the earliest times with such deep and careful research as Dr. Bellew. He has spent many months in reading voluminous Persian and Turki manuscripts, and owing to his remarkable linguistic attainments he has enjoyed better opportunities than any one else of conversing with the learned men of the country. I have therefore adopted his history for incorporation in this work.
(Sd.) T. D. FORSYTH.​




I have time and again assosiated Wardak clan with Burdak clan in our personal discussions beacuse of this simple fact that most of these Pathan clans have Jat origin like ....Gill zai(son of a gill)dudi zai,Virk zai Wardak zai etc etc .....terms like Yusufzai,muhammadzai are later terms that came only after muslim period .


and yes Mangal clan as you mentioned in your post is certainly a Jat Clan that had vast areas in their possesion Mangals are termed Jats in southwestern Afganistan and northern belochistan ...though here they are classed with Bezanzo and Zahari in Bruhi group that spoke agglutinate language and are related to Indus valley but all are termed Jats till today.And Mangals were ruling in eastern chinese turkistan that was later overun by Chinese general and Uighurs came in to power.
 
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About Mangal Jat clan

H. W. Bellew writes that Beyond the Jaji, and adjacent also to the Turi, is the Mangal tribe. The Mangal are reckoned at six thousand families, and inhabit the Chamkani valley, south of the Kuram river, and the hills as far west as Machalgu (Bachalgot Rajput tribe) in the Zurmat district of Ghazni. They are said to be of kindred race with the Jaji, and are generally allied with them in politics. They may represent the Mangali (Mangal Barni, or Mang Barni, before mentioned in connection with the Aparni Dahi of Hazarah) of Sultan Jalaluddin Mangali, the celebrated son of Sultan Muhammad Kharizm Shah, whose special government and princely appanage was the province of Ghazni, in which his family, dependents, and followers were settled. Mangali is a common proper name among the Moghol Tatar, and is said by D'Herbelot, to be the Tatar form of the Hebrew Mikail (Michael), a name introduced amongst them in the early centuries of Christianity by Israelites, or by Nestorians. On the other hand, Mangalia is the name of a well-known clan of the Gahlot Rajput, and also of a predatory tribe of the Indian desert ; whilst Mangal is the name of a Khatri tribe. The Mangalia of the Indian desert and Jesalmir appear to be the source of the Mingal of Balochistan, whom we shall meet at a later stage of this inquiry, and they may be the true source also of the Mangal we are now discussing. The Mangal of Kirman are partly agricultural and partly pastoral, and all more or less predatory and independent. [ An Inquiry Into the Ethnography of Afghanistan By H. W. Bellew, The Oriental University Institute, Woking, 1891, p.100 ]

Distribution in Pakistan

According to 1911 census the Mangil were the principal Muslim Jat clan in Dera Ghazi Khan District with population of Mangil (656) . [Census Of India 1911 Volume xiv Punjab Part 2 by Pandit Narikishan Kaul]
 
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Scythian ('archer') / Skythian ('archer') / Sacae ('archer') / Sakâ ('archer') / Skythai ('archer') / Sai ('archer') / Skudat ('archer') : http://www.jatland.com/home/Scythians
 
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vivekkaliyar said:
when i looked up the history time line of northern/wester India, I got many questions

:Looking up the timeline mentioned in the wikipedia about indo-scythians
3-4 century BC to 6/7 Century AD Indo Scythian Ruled here with certain wining and losses of kingdoms .
it is impossible that these 1000 years didn't affect the People /culture /Genetics .



if u see genealogy of raj-put kings claimed by some expert they trace them up to time of Mahabharata and shows that there kingdoms were always there doesn't make any sense .

How come Aryan and scythians kingdoms stayed side by side ?

why jats are native to only these regions where the scythian kingdoms existed ?
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Leading History Scholars Advocate :




"The Rajputs proper were of mixed origin – pre-Muslim invaders such as Scythians, Bactrians, Parthians, Hunas and Gurjaras who came in before, say, the end of the 7th century."




Sources : http://www.kipling.org.uk/rg_marque_royalraces.htm & http://www.jatland.com/home/Gotra
 
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Scytho-Siberian culture & Yuezhi

Moar said:
(1) Scythian Gold From Siberia Said to Predate the Greeks : http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/09/arts/scythian-gold-from-siberia-said-to-predate-the-greeks.html


(2) Frozen Siberian Mummies Reveal a Lost Civilization | Archaeology | DISCOVER Magazine : http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/25-frozen-siberian-mummies-reveal-a-lost-civilization/
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Excerpts from ' Jacobson, Esther (1993). The Deer Goddess of Ancient Siberia: A Study in the Ecology of Belief - Volume 55 of Studies in the History of Religions (illustrated ed.). BRILL. p. 5-6. ISBN 9004096280, 9789004096288.' :




Please Note : "For the sake of clarity, the general term, Early Nomads, will be used throughout this book to refer to the Scytho-Siberians located in South Siberia and in parts of northern Mongolia, while regional cultural designations will be used as appropriate."


Page 5 :

"The Early Nomads were the South Siberian branch of the Scytho-Siberian culture. In the first millennium B.C., this culture controlled the vast steppe and mountainous regions between China to the east, Persia and Greece to the west, and north to the edge of the Siberian Taiga.... By virtue of their economy and art, the Early Nomads were close cousins of the Sakas of Kazakhstan, who with their successors, the Wusun, dominated eastern Kazakhstan between the eighth and first centuries B.C. Further to the west, the Massagetae controlled the reign between the Caspian and Aral seas."


Page 6 :

"The most western of the Early Nomads' relatives and those most familiar to the modern observer were Scythians. They are believed to have arrived in the lands of the Caucasus, the Crimea, and the rich steppe north of the Black Sea by the sixth century B.C.... In the late years of the first millennium B.C., the successors to the Early Nomads and Sakas served as the vehicles for the transformation of Eurasian nomadism into statehood. The Xiongnu of Mongolia gathered an array of nomadic peoples together into a confederation which became the major geopolitical opponent of the Chinese Han Dynasty. In the same period, the second and first centuries B.C., the Yuezhi established hegemony over the vital steppe region west of the borders of Han China and extending through Bactria to the borders of India. Indeed, after their conversion to Buddhism, the Yuezhi- by then known as the Kushans- proceeded to conquer India and to establish the great Kushan Dynasty. Despite these political transformations and despite significant distinctions in language and physical anthropology between the Xiongnu and their Early Nomadic relatives, they as well as the Yuezhi/Kushans may properly be considered to have belonged to the larger Scytho-Siberian culture."




Reference : Jacobson, Esther (1993). The Deer Goddess of Ancient Siberia: A Study in the Ecology of Belief - Volume 55 of Studies in the History of Religions (illustrated ed.). BRILL. p. 5-6. ISBN 9004096280, 9789004096288.
 
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Do you mean Mangal (pashtun) and Mengal (baloch), both are Jat?

lrburdak said:
About Mangal Jat clan

H. W. Bellew writes that Beyond the Jaji, and adjacent also to the Turi, is the Mangal tribe. The Mangal are reckoned at six thousand families, and inhabit the Chamkani valley, south of the Kuram river, and the hills as far west as Machalgu (Bachalgot Rajput tribe) in the Zurmat district of Ghazni. They are said to be of kindred race with the Jaji, and are generally allied with them in politics. They may represent the Mangali (Mangal Barni, or Mang Barni, before mentioned in connection with the Aparni Dahi of Hazarah) of Sultan Jalaluddin Mangali, the celebrated son of Sultan Muhammad Kharizm Shah, whose special government and princely appanage was the province of Ghazni, in which his family, dependents, and followers were settled. Mangali is a common proper name among the Moghol Tatar, and is said by D'Herbelot, to be the Tatar form of the Hebrew Mikail (Michael), a name introduced amongst them in the early centuries of Christianity by Israelites, or by Nestorians. On the other hand, Mangalia is the name of a well-known clan of the Gahlot Rajput, and also of a predatory tribe of the Indian desert ; whilst Mangal is the name of a Khatri tribe. The Mangalia of the Indian desert and Jesalmir appear to be the source of the Mingal of Balochistan, whom we shall meet at a later stage of this inquiry, and they may be the true source also of the Mangal we are now discussing. The Mangal of Kirman are partly agricultural and partly pastoral, and all more or less predatory and independent. [ An Inquiry Into the Ethnography of Afghanistan By H. W. Bellew, The Oriental University Institute, Woking, 1891, p.100 ]

Distribution in Pakistan

According to 1911 census the Mangil were the principal Muslim Jat clan in Dera Ghazi Khan District with population of Mangil (656) . [Census Of India 1911 Volume xiv Punjab Part 2 by Pandit Narikishan Kaul]
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[Wiki]An Inquiry Into the Ethnography of Afghanistan[/Wiki] is the book By Henry Walter Bellew, Pub: The Oriental University Institute, Woking, 1891. It has many references to Jat clans, and Jat Skythian relations. We have compiled from his book all references to Jat/Jat clans in one specially added new chapter on Jatland Wiki. The page number of that para is given in bracket so as use for references. You may see at -
[Wiki]An Inquiry Into the Ethnography of Afghanistan/Wiki Editor note[/Wiki]
 
Moar said:
>> Overview of Türkic genetics, Anatole A. Klyosov, The principal mystery in the relationship of Indo-European and Türkic linguistic families, and an attempt to solve it with the help of DNA genealogy: reflections of a non-linguist, Journal of Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy (ISSN 1942-7484), 2010, Vol. 3, No 1, pp. 3 - 58.


Read Online: http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm <<
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"....Jat people share only two haplotypes, one of which is also shared with the population of present-day Turkish people...." ~ Indo-Scythian - Jatland Wiki.
 
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Times of India Aug 24 2012 6.18 PM



Mother of Sanskrit and related languages was spoken by Turkish farmers, says new study
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A study published in today's Science magazine puts forward evidence that they originated in a language spoken in Anatolia, part of modern Turkey, 8000 to 9500 years ago.​







<TMP>NEW DELHI: Ma (Hindi), mater (Latin), mutter (German), mere (French), madre (Spanish), madar (Persian), matka (Polish) - these are words from different languages but they all mean 'mother'. There are many words like that common to languages from Iceland to Sri Lanka, including many (but not all) Indian languages. All these languages - about 494 in all - are clubbed together to make the Indo-European family of languages. Scientists believe that they must have had a common origin.
But where? A study published in today's Science magazine puts forward evidence that they originated in a language spoken in Anatolia, part of modern Turkey, 8000 to 9500 years ago. The language spread and changed over the millennia and exists today in these different forms.

Quentin D.Atkinson of the University of Auckland in New Zealand, one of the leading scientists of the study said in a Science podcast interview with Isabelle Boni that such a massive spread can be explained only by a "fairly major powerful mechanism". That mechanism, according to Atkinson, could be agriculture.

"With the advent of agriculture, populations would have been growing, and as they grew, the next generation would have had to expand out a bit from the current range," he said in the interview. "And, if that process went on generation after generation, it doesn't take very long to cover a very large area."
It's also possible that when agriculture spreads into an area that's already inhabited by hunter-gatherers they might find the agricultural lifestyle fairly appealing and adopt agricultural technology and the language of its carrier, he said
The theory that Indo-European language spread riding piggy back on agricultural expansion was put forth by Professor Colin Renfrew in 1987. It says that the languages spread between 8,500 and 9000 years ago, with the spread of agriculture from what is now Turkey, but Anatolia. The latest research appears to confirm this, though many experts are not convinced.


The alternative and much more popular theory put forward by Maria Gimbutas is that pastoralists in the Russian and Ukranian steppes north of the Black Sea (The Scythians)- the so called Kurgan culture - drove long distances in their chariots and settled in distant places. It is they who were responsible for the spread of the Indo-European languages some 5000 to 6000 years ago.
So how did Atkinson and his colleagues come to the conclusion that the spread of languages started from Anatolia not Russia, and that too 4000 years earlier?
They selected 6000 cognates - similar sounding words with same meaning from different languages - from 103 languages of the Indo-European group and fed it into a computer armed with data about all the regions. The idea was to build a language family tree. Then they followed how cognates built up or were lost in different languages. For building a time scale, they marked the known times for certain language events - like they knew that Romance languages like Romanian started diverging from Latin after the Romans withdrew from that region in the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]century CE. From all this data and the computer program shuffling it around, they came to the conclusion that Anatolia was the most likely candidate.
Since Atkinson's study is largely a computer modeling exercise it may take some more years for hard evidence to be collected in its support.















I hope one day our Jat Historians will listen to facts and won't go with ranting of OIT proponents.
</TMP>
 
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narenderkharb said:
Times of India Aug 24 2012 6.18 PM



Mother of Sanskrit and related languages was spoken by Turkish farmers, says new study
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hanged over the millennia and exists today in these different forms.

Quentin D.Atkinson of the University of Auckland in New Zealand, one of the leading scientists of the study said in a Science podcast interview with Isabelle Boni that such a massive spread can be explained only by a "fairly major powerful mechanism". That mechanism, according to Atkinson, could be agriculture.

[/SIZE]The alternative and much more popular theory put forward by Maria Gimbutas is that pastoralists in the Russian and Ukranian steppes north of the Black Sea (The Scythians)- the so called Kurgan culture - drove long distances in their chariots and settled in distant places. It is they who were responsible for the spread of the Indo-European languages some 5000 to 6000 years ago.


Since Atkinson's study is largely a computer modeling exercise it may take some more years for hard evidence to be collected in its support.















I hope one day our Jat Historians will listen to facts and won't go with ranting of OIT proponents.
</TMP>
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How many chariots were involved?

and how did they cross the Hindu Kush mountains? did they have to build a chariot driveable road first?

The article does mention the need for " Hard evidence" ?

Warm regards

Ravi Chaudhary

Ravi
 
ravichaudhary said:
How many chariots were involved?

and how did they cross the Hindu Kush mountains? did they have to build a chariot driveable road first?

The article does mention the need for " Hard evidence" ?

Warm regards

Ravi Chaudhary

Ravi
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Welcome Ravi ji

What you say all these invasion from sakas,Huns, Yehzhis ,Mughals,Persians or reverse by Britishers recorded in our history texts are mere a figment of author's imagination...


Since as per your belief It was impossible to cross HinduKush mountain and there was no driveable pass/road through these mountains.


It is a common knowledge that over the years people in hordes have been pouring through passes ( Khayber ) and are well recorded ....

If it was possible for all these invading groups it was equally possible for People of Anatolia region or Steppe nomads to cross Hindukush mountains ..

All we need is a wish to cater to logic not propoganda of India centric web sites like India Discussion Forum...Bharat vani etc..etc.


Warm regards
 
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सच्चाई छुप नहीं सकती झुट्ठे उसूलों से | जितनी विज्ञान की उन्नति होती जायेगी ,सच्चाई खोद ली जायेगी ,चाहे किसी ने कितनी ही नीचे दफ़न की हो | भाटटों - भाम्णों के झूठ तो आज दुनिया मानने लगी ,कुछ और साल लगेंगे इन् झूठे इतिहासकारों की पोल पट्टी भी खुल जायेगी |
 
ravinderjeet said:
सच्चाई छुप नहीं सकती झुट्ठे उसूलों से | जितनी विज्ञान की उन्नति होती जायेगी ,सच्चाई खोद ली जायेगी ,चाहे किसी ने कितनी ही नीचे दफ़न की हो | भाटटों - भाम्णों के झूठ तो आज दुनिया मानने लगी ,कुछ और साल लगेंगे इन् झूठे इतिहासकारों की पोल पट्टी भी खुल जायेगी |
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अणखिल्ले मर्द दिलेर ' जट्टा ' दा ग़दर किवें भूलावाँ मैं, झुठे इतिहास उत्ते मोहर किवें लावाँ मैं !!
 
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ravinderjeet said:
सच्चाई छुप नहीं सकती झुट्ठे उसूलों से | जितनी विज्ञान की उन्नति होती जायेगी ,सच्चाई खोद ली जायेगी ,चाहे किसी ने कितनी ही नीचे दफ़न की हो | भाटटों - भाम्णों के झूठ तो आज दुनिया मानने लगी ,कुछ और साल लगेंगे इन् झूठे इतिहासकारों की पोल पट्टी भी खुल जायेगी |
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True Brother.
 
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