Should Muslim Jats be allowed on this site?

[ajmer]

Ravi Bhai,

Don't get me wrong. Bhains charana koi buri baat nahin. Aur na hi cow dung collect karana. Kyounki agar hamari purvajon ne cow dung collect na kiya hota to aaj ham yahan nahin hote. We just can't forget our past, we have to be proud of our past and sacrifices of our elders.

Just thought I should clarify.

-ajmer

 

[sanjeevmalik]

I guess my viewpoints will be a little diverted from the point of discussion here.

Again, I was born to a Hindu Jat couple. Hence I am Hindu Jat. I am associated to our community by this relationship. But why should be my relationship to this community only on the basis of birthright/jat?

Why don’t we come up from what we all got as a birthright and work toward being a better person. I guess the effort and energy should be spent on how we can grow into a better loving person rather than try to divide/differentiate on things on which we had no control.

Let’s take control on what can we do to make our community(not only jat intellect but also a on-jat intellect) stronger by being wise and helpful to each other. This world has progressed because individuals(not jats only) used his brain, wisdom, energy to provide a better world for themselves and the next generation. I guess we all should also use the resources we have to build a better environment for ourselves and generations to follow and not limit our brain storming capability to select set of individuals.

I believe diversity of individuals, views, thoughts, cultures, etc makes a better environment.

Thanks.

 

[vimal]

Ravi Chaudhary (Mar 05, 2004 07:41 a.m.):

Vimal Kumar (Mar 04, 2004 11:25 p.m.):The fact is that there is a big difference in the mindset of hindu, muslim and sikh JAT.


********
If we do not enter into dialogue, are we going to see a change ?

####
Is that on priority list of our community. The condition of muslim jats is worse than hindu jats. they have their own concerns. They still believe in "bachhe are allah ki den" and give birth to dozens. Hindu jats are moving towards nuclear family, this is realised in rural areas too. We gels with everyone in the society well, that's true. But still when we goto villages we get transformed into more like a rural jat. Our thoughts and language switches to that those. There we do not think of upliftment of our muslim neighbor in village. That is not the concern. Infact if there is some fight among a hindu jat and muslim jat, then all jats get united and vows to teach musalmaans a lesson. Most importantly, when the word JAT is used, it means HINDU JAT only, not a jat of some other religion. As far as I know, no one in villages use the term muslim jats. They are just musalmaan for them. Jats have good relationship with them, as most of them are dependent on Jats. They get cattlefeed from jat farmers only and also work as labourers. Jats sells milk to them and sometimes they also take karz from them to buy cattle (buffaloes).

But when comes to mixing with them at a more intellectual level and try to mix with them with a thought that they are also Jats who get converted to Islam, that is not what a Jat can digest.

Moreover, muslim jats do not follow the tradition of getting married to a muslim jat only. This way we can not say that they are pure jat race. A jat stricytly adheres to marriage rules like marrying in different gotras than that of their parents etc plus not to get married in specified villages and so on. This has helped us in preserving our culture and traits a lot. Whereas this might not be true in case of muslim jats.

Now about your question of whether we are going to see a change or not??

The new muslim jat generation is changed a lot. They can not see jats eye to eye, par majboori hai unki. Changing the attitude of Jats alone doesn't make any sense, but can we change the attitudes of muslim jats. They are muslims first and jats later. This is what they believe in. We can compare them as pakistan and Hindustan. Dono ke beech mei kafi distance hai. Hamre Jat bhai kargil mei shaheed ho rahe ho or hum gaon mei hidu jat-muslim jat ekta ke naare lagaye, I dont think this gels too well.

*******************
If we do not take steps to improve the conditions of the village Jat, doing Kheti( now mostly subsistence farming) for a living, can we expect progress and development , of our community ?
*********************
Yes, that is what the requirement of day is. We should concentrate more on that rather than trying to unite hindu-muslim jats. they already are living in harmony, though there is a clear line too between them.

Once the upliftment of all the Jats is done, then we can try to elevate ourself over the religious boundries and concentrate to unite all of them.

I am not averse to the idea of communication/interaction with M. Jat, but that will breach the privacy that this site enjoys now. Most of us will not like Ahmed/Fateh criticising a hindu jat here. This can evoke strong reaction from many of us and may introduce more bitterness on the site.


Vimal

 

[vimal]

Vimal Kumar (Mar 05, 2004 02:47 p.m.):

Ravi Chaudhary (Mar 05, 2004 07:41 a.m.):

Vimal Kumar (Mar 04, 2004 11:25 p.m.):The fact is that there is a big difference in the mindset of hindu, muslim and sikh JAT.


********
If we do not enter into dialogue, are we going to see a change ?

####
Is that on priority list of our community. The condition of muslim jats is worse than hindu jats. they have their own concerns. They still believe in "bachhe are allah ki den" and give birth to dozens. Hindu jats are moving towards nuclear family, this is realised in rural areas too. We gels with everyone in the society well, that's true. But still when we goto villages we get transformed into more like a rural jat. Our thoughts and language switches to that those. There we do not think of upliftment of our muslim neighbor in village. That is not the concern. Infact if there is some fight among a hindu jat and muslim jat, then all jats get united and vows to teach musalmaans a lesson. Most importantly, when the word JAT is used, it means HINDU JAT only, not a jat of some other religion. As far as I know, no one in villages use the term muslim jats. They are just musalmaan for them. Jats have good relationship with them, as most of them are dependent on Jats. They get cattlefeed from jat farmers only and also work as labourers. Jats sells milk to them and sometimes they also take karz from them to buy cattle (buffaloes).

But when comes to mixing with them at a more intellectual level and try to mix with them with a thought that they are also Jats who get converted to Islam, that is not what a Jat can digest.

Moreover, muslim jats do not follow the tradition of getting married to a muslim jat only. This way we can not say that they are pure jat race. A jat stricytly adheres to marriage rules like marrying in different gotras than that of their parents etc plus not to get married in specified villages and so on. This has helped us in preserving our culture and traits a lot. Whereas this might not be true in case of muslim jats.

Now about your question of whether we are going to see a change or not??

The new muslim jat generation is changed a lot. They can not see jats eye to eye, par majboori hai unki. Changing the attitude of Jats alone doesn't make any sense, but can we change the attitudes of muslim jats. They are muslims first and jats later. This is what they believe in. We can compare them as pakistan and Hindustan. Dono ke beech mei kafi distance hai. Hamre Jat bhai kargil mei shaheed ho rahe ho or hum gaon mei hidu jat-muslim jat ekta ke naare lagaye, I dont think this gels too well.

*******************
If we do not take steps to improve the conditions of the village Jat, doing Kheti( now mostly subsistence farming) for a living, can we expect progress and development , of our community ?
*********************
Yes, that is what the requirement of day is. We should concentrate more on that rather than trying to unite hindu-muslim jats. they already are living in harmony, though there is a clear line too between them.

Once the upliftment of all the Jats is done, then we can try to elevate ourself over the religious boundries and concentrate to unite all of them.

I am not averse to the idea of communication/interaction with M. Jat, but that will breach the privacy that this site enjoys now. Most of us will not like Ahmed/Fateh criticising a hindu jat here. This can evoke strong reaction from many of us and may introduce more bitterness on the site.


Vimal

 

[ravichaudhary]

Ajmer Dahiya (Mar 05, 2004 01:54 p.m.):
Ravi Bhai,

Don't get me wrong. Bhains charana koi buri baat nahin. Aur na hi cow dung collect karana. Kyounki agar hamari purvajon ne cow dung collect na kiya hota to aaj ham yahan nahin hote. We just can't forget our past, we have to be proud of our past and sacrifices of our elders.

Just thought I should clarify.

-ajmer

No one is asking you to forget your past.

What I have not been able to convey, when I raise this Kheti, Cow dung anology , is

1) there was a time when agriculture, cattle was the driving force og the economy.

The Jats, controlled it.

They owned the means of production, and wealth. They were wealthy.

They were like the big industrialists are today.

Today Agriculture, or rather subsistence agriculture, is survival agriculture.

It does not offer the same rewards, it did in the pre industrialization age.

Hence those who are stuck, in survival Kheti Bari, are stuck in a declining industry, declining incomes, well on their way to poverty and marginalization.

If we are indeed proud of our elders/ ancestors deeds, then we need to urgently get out next generation out of the villages, get them educated, for starters.

We are not going to get there without inviting the winds of change, of competition, giving up our fear.

We are not going to get there if we continue to bask in memories of a bath at the tube well, and sucking sugarcane.

We are not going to get there unless we stop clinging to the past,

or unless we are open to dialogue with others, whether it is Muslim Jats, Sikh Jats or Non Jats


Ravi

 

[ravichaudhary]

Vimal Kumar (Mar 05, 2004 02:50 p.m.):

[/bBut when comes to mixing with them at a more intellectual level and try to mix with them with a thought that they are also Jats who get converted to Islam, that is not what a Jat can digest.

******************
Some may recall Swami Dayanand and the Arya Samaj movement.

One of the main planks was Ghar Vapasi, or bringing back to Vedic ( hinduism) the Muslims

Should we now go away from Arya Samaj principles ?

If yes, maybe we should remove the writeup about the Arya Samaj from the home page of this site, for starters.

Feedback ?

Ravi

 

[vimal]

******************
Some may recall Swami Dayanand and the Arya Samaj movement.

One of the main planks was Ghar Vapasi, or bringing back to Vedic ( hinduism) the Muslims

Should we now go away from Arya Samaj principles ?

If yes, maybe we should remove the writeup about the Arya Samaj from the home page of this site, for starters.

Feedback ?

Ravi[/quote]
***************************

I do not agree on the point that such initiative can be taken for muslim Jats only. That is an issue which should be looked from a wider perspective - All those who have converted irrespective of whether they are Jats or non-Jats.

Plus we should also see whether this is practical or not. Today if one muslim jat family get converted back to hindu jat, then political parties will start moulding that instance in their benefit maligning the whole community.

Also, I dont think that Jat ego will let them to fully welcome those converts in their community back.

JATs can not think themselves as not a part of Hindu religion. They are hindu first and jat later, though we may say that reverse is more true.

See the following article which describes the death of 5 dalits in jhajjar over cow slaughter and the arya samaj angle involved in that. though this may be a stray incident or a politically motivated one.

http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-cow.htm

Majority of us are not aware of the origin of jats, from where they came, are they aryans etc. Even among the educated ones too. I read all these details on this site only. So the concept of muslim jat for a rural jat is something which is totally different. For them a muslim can not be a jat. This is what the understanding is.

A muslim jat can convert back to hinduism but not as JAT. I don't think any Jat will marry his son/daughter in that family. This attitude may not be changed even in next 50 years.

Anyone (jat or non jat) can become muslim but anyone that is not born as a jat cannot become a Jat.

Jat ka khoon jat ka hi rahega.

Vimal

 

[ravichaudhary]

The Jhajar incident is a digression.

I followed that story quite closely.

It turned out the Vishwa Hindu Parishad VHP( hindus) had created the incident, to make inroads in Jhajjar, which is Arya Samaj territory.

The inciting was done by a local panda, and the setup was by local VHP activists

Then you can ask yourself, and I realize that it is a provocative question,

where would you like to fit in ?

If you are a true Hindu, you must follow the local Brahmin Priest, and fit into his caste system, and be a shudra.

For that is where the Jats fit in.

The Brahmin does not accept gifts from you, takes only Kucha food, and the Jat custom of widow remarriage is anti the Hindu traditions.

You are not a Dwija, do not ( are not) allowed to wear the sacred thread.

He will not teach you or allow you to leran vedas.

Food for thought

Ravi

 

[chhoraharyanada]

From my experiences with muslims (musalmaan lahori jatt included) ... the moment "islam" kicks in - then anything else and everything else becomes a very distant second.

the ones Ive met are all "hindus/sikhs are kaafirs", "you all are non-muslim, therefore are the scum of the earth" etc etc.
they have no interest in jatt unity.

post 9/11, I've taken to reading the Koran. Its frightening. Any Muslim Jatt who starts following that way of lifestyle is well ... way of from the rest of us jatts.

Secondly, they do what we jatts would call incest. I knew one jatt from sialkot (i think?!) and he married his cousin!

 

[rsdalal]

My opinion better keep it the way it is...
Allready bhot sare Bheem er Arjun se hade...
There are allready many other sites, so why make jatland as well just another site.
Ravi Bhai Yahoo group is open for for everyone, is that not enough....

 

[rsdalal]

Ravi Bhai I would like to add few lines here

Ravi Chaudhary (Mar 05, 2004 06:40 p.m.):
The Jhajar incident is a digression.

I followed that story quite closely.

It turned out the Vishwa Hindu Parishad VHP( hindus) had created the incident, to make inroads in Jhajjar, which is Arya Samaj territory.

The inciting was done by a local panda, and the setup was by local VHP activists
Ravi

VHP does not have any place in Haryana villages, After the incident only Gurukul Jhajhar was involved in negotiations with Govt to release villagers.

Ravi Chaudhary (Mar 05, 2004 06:40 p.m.):
You are not a Dwija, do not ( are not) allowed to wear the sacred thread.

He will not teach you or allow you to leran vedas.

Food for thought

Ravi

Every Gurukul students wear thread. I am really surprised to hear all this.

 

[ravichaudhary]

Ranvir Singh Dalal (Mar 05, 2004 07:48 p.m.):
My opinion better keep it the way it is...
Allready bhot sare Bheem er Arjun se hade...
There are allready many other sites, so why make jatland as well just another site.
Ravi Bhai Yahoo group is open for for everyone, is that not enough....

**************

For me it is

My sikh Jat friends have raised this question.

It does need a responsible response.

No ?

I alone cannot give a satisfactory response

I need help


Ravi

 

[ravichaudhary]

Ranvir Singh Dalal (Mar 05, 2004 08:01 p.m.):
Ravi

VHP does not have any place in Haryana villages, After the incident only Gurukul Jhajhar was involved in negotiations with Govt to release villagers.


**********

VHP did succeed in creating the incident.

that the Gurukul Jhajjar exposed the scheme is another matter

We Jats must start to see beyond the obvious

Besides

There was a time when the Jats were
the " Govt"

What is the Jat commmunity position today.

Do they wish to be the " Govt"

or

supplicants to the " Govt, the Sarkar", to be governed by someone else.


Ravi
******************

 

[ravichaudhary]

Ranvir Singh Dalal (Mar 05, 2004 08:01 p.m.):
Ravi Bhai I would like to add few lines here

Ravi Chaudhary (Mar 05, 2004 06:40 p.m.):
You are not a Dwija, do not ( are not) allowed to wear the sacred thread.

He will not teach you or allow you to leran vedas.

Food for thought

Ravi

Every Gurukul students wear thread. I am really surprised to hear all this.

*********

Swami Dayanand rejected the idol worshiping panda Hindu thinking.

To him the Vedas were for all, and all who read the Vedas were twice born and the sacred thread was for all.

The Gurukuls are an Arya Samaj Creation.

When you invite a non arya samaj Brahmin pujari in your house to do a havana, he is coming to the house of a shudra.

Ask him to eat the food cooked oin your house. He will not

Also the next time you do that, ask him to teach your children the Vedas

See what happens


Ravi

 

[rkumar]

Dear Friends,

Best way to debate this issue would be to draw the list of points in favour and againts. This way we will be able to quantify our approach to the issue. Its very difficult to keep track of loose ended debate. Or another appreoch can be sort of model based. May be we can follow the following approach;

1. Approach A: For the moment let us assume that Jatland is like a country in the virtual space. As of now, the nationality of this country is permitted only to Hindu Jats. Like any country the Jatland also wannts to have relations with other nationalities and develop closer bonds with some closer nationalities. As a first step we think that closer relations with other Jat groups will help strengthen the Jatland and Hindu Jats. Some memebrs feel that Sikh Jats being more educationally, economically and culturally developed, may take over this our country called Jatland in virtual space. Internal security might become an issue and there might be internal social unrest. These member want to keep Jatland pure. If we use this model, we are like a close nation and our future might be like Nepal, afganistan, Burma or other similar countries who have been close to outsiders for centuaries. If we welcome like minded people, I am sure we will benifit like open societies in the west. Benifits will far outweigh the potential risks. Many of our younger members will have simulation like experience to deal with sikh and muslim jats and this will be very useful when they face these members in reality.

Approach B: Let members post their own points in favour and against of inviting Jat sikhs and muslim jats. We can compile the list of points in favour and againts and then debate the outcome. Let as many members put their views as possible.

May be other members have other approach to suggest to debate the issue in a more quantifiable manner.

Regards
Rajendra

 

[jagmohan]

Dear All,

What about a referendum? It is also election time too!!!

Should Non Hindu JATS join JATLAND?

MY VOTE: NO

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

 

[ravichaudhary]

Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd) (Mar 06, 2004 12:22 a.m.):
Dear All,

What about a referendum? It is also election time too!!!

Should Non Hindu JATS join JATLAND?

MY VOTE: NO

Regards,

Lt Col JS Malik (Retd)

**************
When we are discusing going in a new direction, a simple yes or no answer serves no purpose.

Reasons for and against do

Elections will come and go.

We need to dwell more on what is benefit to our next generation- close mindedness or open mindedness.

Col Malik, what are your reasons for saying No.


Is Rajendraji's anaology of closed insular societies, like Burma wrong?

India too was a closed socialist society, what did it get us.


Now see what reforms to the ecomony, elimination of the licence Raj have done.

Overnight cement, went from a Black market to a freely available commodity.

For the prevous 50 years we were drowned in Garibi Hatao slogans, where the reality of the policies, was Garibi Hatao for some, and Garibi Badao for the Majority.

We jats were powerful 200 years ago, what has happened to us since ?

Do we not need to think about it ?


Ravi

 

[vimal]

*****************
If you are a true Hindu, you must follow the local Brahmin Priest, and fit into his caste system, and be a shudra.

For that is where the Jats fit in.
*****************

There is nothing like true Hindu. We are born as Hindu, this is an undisputed fact. Otherwise we would not have been worshipping Hindu gods, following the hindu customs and festivals. We can not think of ourselves separated from that.

Hindu religion is above the caste system, all these things were introduced later by brahmins as per their convenience and I think that may have happened even before Jats came here.

and by what angle do you think that we are shudras as per them:

You may have read this in some book, but that doesn't mean that whatever is written inside that is true.

We should look towards reality:

Jat is not equal to chamar, jheemer, teli, nai.
Ask a Jat living in rural area, and he may not even accept that Brahmin is above Jat. and no Baahman will dare to say that there.

The caste system is based on the kind of work ppl were doing. Even by that angle either the Jats are vysya (agriculture is a form of business) or the kshatriya (warrior class).

*****************
The Brahmin does not accept gifts from you, takes only Kucha food, and the Jat custom of widow remarriage is anti the Hindu traditions.
*****************

Ek bahmaan ko bulao, pachees bhagte hue aayenge jeemne ke liye. Kachha pakka jo bhi milega, kha ke chal denge. In jat dominated villages they do not have any other source of income except to depend on Jats. Today things are changing as even they are getting educated and getting jobs.

Jo aap brahmin ko itna upar baitha rahe ho, aisa nahin hai bhai. Aaj bhi majority of jats are vegetarians even in cities. And majority of bahmaans even in cities will not even think twice before eating beef, given the oppurtunity. USA/UK mei yeh sab bahmaan beef taste kar ke jaate hain.

*********************
You are not a Dwija, do not ( are not) allowed to wear the sacred thread.
*********************
Who want to wear that. I never will. Jo kuch bahmaan karega, woh Jat bhi kare, aisa to koi rule nahin hai. I have never seen any Jat aspiring to wear that. Haan kale rang ke takdi jaroor bandhwa lete hain.


**********************
He will not teach you or allow you to leran vedas.
**********************
Vedas are not the property of brahmins. Anyone can learn them. Even the shudras. The thing is not that Jat are not allowed, but they are not inclined to learn vedas. They are happy in their kheti. 10th pass kar le, usme hi woh happy ho jate hain ;-)

You will find many of the sanskrit acharyas in Jat dominated villages/colleges to be Jats. They are even invited to conduct marriages too.

**************
Food for thought

Ravi[/quote]
**************

We should think in terms of reality on the ground. Yeh sab baaten woh log hi kar sakte hain jin logon ne Jat culture ko najdeek se nahi dekha hai. Those non-jats who have seen it from close can never talk such things.

or jin logon ko kuch pata hi nahi hai un logon ko to waise hi ignore kar dena chahiye.

The fact is that we are proud of being a Jat. Ek bahmman apni ladki ki jat ke saath shaadi kar dega badi khushi se but the reverse is not true, because we do not consider brahmin above us. Infact No ONE is.

JAT is above everyone. This is Jat ki marod. No one can rule over a Jat mind.

 

[ajmer]

Folks,

This is a good discussion. I don't think there is a need for any elections. The verdict is alearly out. People spoke their mind and that is enough. We don't want to creat factions here. This is not a political platform. Noone is right or wrong here. We should respect everyone's views. At the same time we should be able to speak on issues we strongly feel about and clearly people are speaking.

I would just like to point out that just because some people think that Jats are in bad state of affairs doen't mean Jat are in a bad state of affairs.

The State of the Union of Jats is strong as ever. We are all proud of beings Jats. As long as a person has good intention, is well meaning, have strong self respect and have strong self esteem, he is strong. That is how I see a true Jat. Who said Jats are in a bad state of affairs? Just don't try to force your individual views/opinion on others.

This only shows a sense of insecurity at individual level. Talk to a Jat abroad or a Jat in a village, I have not seen such a sense of insecurity in people in general. Yes there are somethings which can be done differently but overall Jats are doing well. They are changing with time. They still have dignity. Above all, in general, they are not selling their jameer. That is what is important. Jats are open minded and they are not fanatics. This not just my view, these are the views of most Jats.

No, I don't think the anaology of closed insular societies, like Burma is right in this discussion. You don't open your house to the general public otherwise it becomes a Dharamshala. You have people as guest in your house which are Jats, non-Jats, Hindus, Muslims but you don't just open your house for them to live there permanently. Only people which are close to normally live there. Also, you interact with people from different cast, religions, color and origin in your day to day life but at the end of the day you return to your house where you find comfort in your own beings.

Also, I fail to understand how inviting general public on this site has to anything with the upliftment of those living in the villages.

This site is a home away from home for many of us. This is a social meeting place for like minded people from similar background. Let us have some time of our own and have some fun.

This is a very good discussion and many people openly spoke in favor and against opening the site to public. Many didn't speak simply because this is kind of controversial issue.

I would also like to point out that to me this is not an issue of which (Hindu, Sikh or Muslim) Jats are good or bad. It is just an issue of whether it is a good idea to open this site.

Thanks folks and keep up the good spirit.

-ajmer

 

[kpsingh402]

Are we not historically/genetically the same breed who drifted away due to their religious lines. we believe in diverse cultural aspects and cherish as ethos of our culture. it is a must that we must think together as a community while we are cherishing different religious moorings. with regards to all.