"Should the Govt amend HMA to ban 'same-gotra' marriage"?

[reenaa]

THE RECENT CASE THAT HAPPENED IN ASHOK VIHAR IN DELHI

NEW DELHI: In a shocking twist to the brutal “honour killing” of a young married couple at Ashok Vihar here in the Capital this past Sunday, the sister of a suspect was found murdered in a car parked in the same area on Tuesday. The victim had been missing for the past two days.

The third murder came to light around 7 a.m. when some locals in H Block of Ashok Vihar-I spotted an abandoned black Santro car in the area. Since a foul smell was emanating from the vehicle, they tried to peep in but could not see through the tinted glass windows. They then informed the police.

The police were looking for the same vehicle for the past two days in connection with the mysterious murders of Monika and her husband Kuldeep Rajput. Police teams rushed to the spot to gather evidence, including fingerprints, from inside the car. The forensic team found the semi-decomposed body of a young woman in the vehicle. An empty bullet case was found inside, suggesting that the victim had been shot.

Deputy Commissioner of Police (North-West Delhi) N. S. Bundela said the woman was identified as Shobha, a resident of Wazirpur village. While her brother Mandeep is a suspect in the murders, her identification was done with the help of her other brother Sandeep. The car in which the body was found belongs to Rahul, who also lives in Wazirpur village and is a relative of Kuldeep.

During questioning, Rahul purportedly told the police that Mandeep had borrowed the car from him. Mandeep's father, who runs a grocery shop, said he had taken Shobha along with him on Sunday evening on the pretext of locating her elder sister Khushboo, who had recently eloped and married a man named Ravi from another caste. “They are safe, at an undisclosed location. We have asked them to contact us in case they need protection,” said Mr. Bundela.

The police suspect involvement of Monika's elder brother Ankit and his friends Mandeep and Nikku in the murders. More persons could be involved in the conspiracy. While Monika was found murdered in her rented accommodation at Ashok Vihar, her husband was shot dead in his car in the same locality. Investigations purportedly have revealed that recently Shobha had also eloped with one Raja, who belonged to another religion, to look for a break in the modelling profession. But she returned home later.

Police suspect that her elopement and that of her elder sister infuriated her brother and he along with Ankit conspired to eliminate her and the others as they had chosen men out of their caste. However, Mr. Bundela said the exact reason behind the murders would be clear only when the suspects are caught and interrogated.

The police said they are trying to trace the second vehicle (DL 8CS 3600) the accused had borrowed from another friend.

Investigations so far have revealed that Ankit was previously involved in a case of causing hurt. He along with his relatives had allegedly beaten up Rahul suspecting him to have played a role in latter's marriage with Monika in 2006. After the court marriage, the couple had sought police protection apprehending a backlash. However, the two families later seemed to have reconciled.

 

[dreamer]

The last case pointed out by Reena was not same gotra thing I guess, still it was so called honor killing, killing is never justified man. But one thing is almost always common when we observe these same gotra marriages and at last honor killings, the both boy and girl are not well educated and mostly school dropouts and well in some cases very young, there must be some problem in the so called sanskaar transfer (As Vikas Gulia rightly said ki we are forgetting good old things in the name of becoming so called modern). these guys just get infatuate towards each other and just give a damn to society, because they just dont have any clue what society means. Two problems I can point out, we as parents need to work upon :

- Parents never communicate with kids about their so called personal life, they in-spite of knowing kids' problems (mentally problems in this case only) tend to ignore such things and at last things go out of hand. Parents never care with whom they meet (they are always there to scold him/her for this but you know what, kids go in opposite direction, and everyone does same)

- Lot of threads are running on jatland about Sex education and other things, yeah this is also one of the major problem, kids prefer hiding every little tits bits related to this so called sacred thing.



Cheers

 

[kapdal]

Its really disgusting and shameful to see that so many so called educated fellows are supporting honour killing giving illogical reasons of duty, intra-gotra marriage,occurrence of such henious acts in other communities/regions of the world, race purification etc..People can have different views but how can one justify any sort of killing (and honour kiling cases are amongst the brutal ones ) .I wonder what kind of education we are getting and will be delivering to our future generation. Honour killing doesnt kill an individal or a couple but destroy the whole family . Unfortunately I dont see any end to such cases in the country and within our community.Its high time we should work against such evils in the society rather than glorifying it and shielding such acts in the name of "honour".

You are just confusing too many different issues and also coming up with wrong conclusions. Illogical opposition is not good just like illogical support is not good. Why is an honour killing more brutal than any other murder? I don't think the victims are kidnapped, tortured with third degree and then killed (Maoists do that and this regularly misses media reporting). In fact, how's it different from any other murder, as far as non-justifiability is concerned? What has education got to do with it anyways? I don't remember being taught in school about honour killings. Can't educated people indulge in crimes or murders? What's your proposal for working against this evil?

Let's not blindly propogate media's logic which thrives on sensationalism.

 

[kapdal]

Shocked by growing cult of “honour killings” being reported across the country, the Supreme Court on Monday issued notices to the Centre and some states on the issue.

A bench of Justices R. M. Lodha and A. K. Patnaik sought response from the respective governments on the petition filed by NGO ‘Shakti Vahini’ expressing grave concern over the recent spurt of such killings carried out at the instance of khap panchayats ( Kangaroo courts) in villages in the North.

The NGO complained that though there was a spurt in such killings in Punjab, Uttar Pradesh, West Bengal and Haryana, neither the Centre nor the state governments were taking steps to curb the menace due to “vote-bank politics.”

The khap panchayats function beyond the control of police, and their verdicts on marriages outside castes or same ‘gotras’ are rarely defied. In many recent cases, runaway couples have been brought back and murdered without a murmur of protest among the families. Fathers, uncles or even brothers take out their anger on boys or girls who dare to defy the established rules and traditions.

Haunted by the panchayat leaders who act like the Taliban, there have been instances of couples committing suicides on rail tracks, swallowing poison or hanging themselves in a death pact. Shockingly, the relatives involved in the murders have no remorse and even feel proud over protecting the “honour” of the family.

For instance, in a latest case, the father and uncle of a 19-year-old girl, who was allegedly tortured and electrocuted to death along with her boyfriend in the capital have been arrested. Suresh Kumar Saini and Om Prakash, father and uncle respectively of the victim Asha Saini, were arrested for allegedly committing the gruesome murder, police said.

Asha and Yogesh Kumar had been found murdered at her uncle’s residence on on Monday morning and the girl’s uncle Prakash and other members of her family were untraceable after the incident. “Saini and Prakash have confessed to the crime,” police claimed. Asha allegedly had an affair with Yogesh and wanted to marry him but her family was vehemently against the match as the boy belonged to a different caste.

“Honour killings,” which have been ratified by some 'khap panchayats', is a social problem and such issues could be resolved amicably.

some decisions of the 'khap panchayats' violated the law of the land. "There is no law that bars two adults from the same 'gotra' marrying each other, but society sometimes do not accept this. We have to sit together to resolve the issue".

The Delhi High Court had on Friday made a man withdraw a petition seeking a direction to the Union Government to carry out amendments in the Hindu Marriage Act banning marriages within the same gotra.

Have you written this or copied it from some news site? If news site, then pls give the source. In either case, it is of abysmally low quality and devoid of logic. The same old comparisons with Taliban, Kangaroo courts, etc. I'd rather read Sidney Sheldon to get an unbiased reporting of facts!

 

[hemanthooda]

Ya kapil i totally agree with you that we should not play in hands of media....Media is there for TRP only....

& Sidney Sheldon is anytime better than these newspapers...

 

[ravichaudhary]

Here the issue is not of supporting same gotra marriage or not but forcing it to others which is not just unfair, but can be barbaric in the form of "honour killing" ...I am surprised to read the views of so called modern Jats that they are ok with sales of girls , killing in the name of honour but can't have tolerance to accept same gotra marriage ...in any case thses gotra are now running from more than 10 generations and scientifically if at all there is any harmful effect of in-breeding its only till 3rd generation..
P.S: I have voted yes because before loving someone I am not not ask her biodata and I cant make strangers my sister

Satendra

Maybe you should ask for her bio data

That way you might get know if the target of your proposed affections is related to you or not.

That is the point here.

After knowing that, you may still insist on targeting the young lady within your goth for her affections.

You will also have known that other members of your goth consider you and her to be brother and sister.

You will also know that will upset members of your goth, and other members of your community.

Quite obviously, the issues of honour, izzat, etc will arise.

You will also know that when people get upset over such matters, they can take matters in their own hands. Violence can and sometimes does follow.

At least you will be doing so with full knowledge, and knowing that you are going against Jat traditions.

Do you expect members of your family, goth, and village to simply agree with you?

If you are against such basic traditions, that are quite close the the core values of being a member of the Jat society, then certainly you will be, at the least, entitled to stop calling your self as a member of the Jat community.

and of course Jats will be free to reject you as a member of the community.

It goes both ways, one cannot ' have one's cake and eat it too.

Ravi Chaudhary


P.S

As I have mentioned before, members are free to hold extreme views and express them.

No personal attacks will be allowed on members expressing views that go against what the majority think.

It is best that these views are aired out here on this forum .

Satendra is entitled to his views, and to express them here. He means well.

Hopefully a healthy and rational discussion will take place and the group will reach a beneficial result.


Best regards to all

Ravi Chaudhary

 

[reenaa]

You are just confusing too many different issues and also coming up with wrong conclusions. Illogical opposition is not good just like illogical support is not good. Why is an honour killing more brutal than any other murder? I don't think the victims are kidnapped, tortured with third degree and then killed (Maoists do that and this regularly misses media reporting). In fact, how's it different from any other murder, as far as non-justifiability is concerned? What has education got to do with it anyways? I don't remember being taught in school about honour killings. Can't educated people indulge in crimes or murders? What's your proposal for working against this evil?

The truth remains, that such cases do take place n people do loose their life.I agree with satyendra that honor killing does destroy the whole family.As its the victim or culprit family that bears the brunt.Nobody will come forward to share the punishment.Even if u kill a person whats the surety that somebody else will not do the same mistake. It is high time that people put an end to it.e not take
laws in their hand. The one who kill their own family members are doing no good to the society as they are still criticised by the majority.killing is brutal anyways, b it a murder or honor killing.My intention for taking this poll was to get a consensus on honor killing.
Majority stll condemns it.People need to be liberal in their thoughts.One should not forget his values n traditions but at the same time should not take up killing just to prove that he/ she is high on values, belief n ethics.The solution that I think is proper counselling to children should be given from the begining.......

LIVE N LET LIVE

There is nothing on earth divine except humanity.

 

[ravichaudhary]

Shocked by growing cult of “honour killings” being reported across the country, the Supreme Court on Monday issued notices to the Centre and some states on the issue.a.

Reena

If this post is from a newspaper article, please post the URL reference.

Without it, readers will think these are your views

Ravi Chaudhary

 

[nitindev]

Ravi,

It is actually very absurd and rude to ask bio-data of any person. Certain traditions are also very arguable and many have been changed which were not in the best interest of Community as well as unaaceptable by human rights. Traditions are reflections of many factors, such as personal perspective, geography, development, climate etc. Tradition in reality is very dynamic and these days the changes have been quite rapid. Now engagments are done on phone and talaks are done the same way.

Talking about the aspirations of family and community, the gotra marriage only effects less than the tinnest fraction of community. In community we discourage gays but now even they have got the rights to rightly love and marry. The " main" tradition has been to marry in our our castes so shall we even ask for the amendment of Hindu laws, thereby barring the inter caste marriages?? Those couples who marry outside their caste are in large numbers and they also badly hurt the sentiments of family members. As has been discussed in lenghts, a person if marries another in same gotra, does not see a brother or sister in the other person. He/She should not be doing so just because someone else thinks that they are brothers/sisters. Doesn't it actually sound absurd. Many people disgree with what we do but finally it is upto us to make the final call. And noone does this with the intention to hurt anyone. If someone takes this personaly and feels insulted then I wonder what can be said about this.



Ps:-

No personal attacks will be allowed on members expressing views that go against what the majority think.

rightly said but then, I somehow don't see a line from your post in a good taste... "If you are against such basic traditions, that are quite close the the core values of being a member of the Jat society, then certainly you will be, at the least, entitled to stop calling your self as a member of the Jat community"

Satendra

Maybe you should ask for her bio data

That way you might get know if the target of your proposed affections is related to you or not.

That is the point here.

After knowing that, you may still insist on targeting the young lady within your goth for her affections.

You will also have known that other members of your goth consider you and her to be brother and sister.

You will also know that will upset members of your goth, and other members of your community.

Quite obviously, the issues of honour, izzat, etc will arise.

You will also know that when people get upset over such matters, they can take matters in their own hands. Violence can and sometimes does follow.

At least you will be doing so with full knowledge, and knowing that you are going against Jat traditions.

Do you expect members of your family, goth, and village to simply agree with you?

If you are against such basic traditions, that are quite close the the core values of being a member of the Jat society, then certainly you will be, at the least, entitled to stop calling your self as a member of the Jat community.

and of course Jats will be free to reject you as a member of the community.

It goes both ways, one cannot ' have one's cake and eat it too.

Ravi Chaudhary


P.S

As I have mentioned before, members are free to hold extreme views and express them.

No personal attacks will be allowed on members expressing views that go against what the majority think.

It is best that these views are aired out here on this forum .

Satendra is entitled to his views, and to express them here. He means well.

Hopefully a healthy and rational discussion will take place and the group will reach a beneficial result.


Best regards to all

Ravi Chaudhary

 

[kapdal]

The truth remains, that such cases do take place n people do loose their life.I agree with satyendra that honor killing does destroy the whole family.As its the victim or culprit family that bears the brunt.Nobody will come forward to share the punishment.Even if u kill a person whats the surety that somebody else will not do the same mistake. It is high time that people put an end to it.e not take
laws in their hand. The one who kill their own family members are doing no good to the society as they are still criticised by the majority.killing is brutal anyways, b it a murder or honor killing.My intention for taking this poll was to get a consensus on honor killing.
Majority stll condemns it.People need to be liberal in their thoughts.One should not forget his values n traditions but at the same time should not take up killing just to prove that he/ she is high on values, belief n ethics.The solution that I think is proper counselling to children should be given from the begining.......

LIVE N LET LIVE

There is nothing on earth divine except humanity.

I don't understand why you quoted me on this reply or why you start with a phrase "The truth remains...", implying that my position was anti-truth. Either you can try to understand what I said or explain to me what you don't agree with.

 

[sanjaymalik]

SYL pa rona ye hai Yudhivir ki dono taraf Jat hain, Punjab me bhi aur Haryana me bhi. Its a Jat vs Jat problem.

RK^2

RK sir off the topic i would like to submits that it's not a jat v/s jat problem its a Election v/s election problem to make an issue for fighting election in the State otherwise you know very well there is a solution to this problem being congress govt at centre level,as well as both state level , but don't want to settle the same. if they would settle it then no big issue will remain for fighting election and make fool of innocent farmer of Haryana.

 

[sanjaymalik]

Judges come with their own biases.

They are not neutral.


If the court was made up of Jat judges, they would not give a decision against Jat custom.

A panel of judges , made up judges from a community where Sa Gothra marriage is permitted will not give a judgment against their norms.

What was the make up here?

The norm is 'Jiski Lathi uske Bhains!'

Naresh Kadyanji should not have rushed in. These matters have to be strategized.

That is the one thing,that this forum is for!


We would like to see the lawyers brief, and their arguments. Let build on that.

Ravi Chaudhary

Dear Ravi i have already expressed a lot view on this topic even otherwise if anyone want to know more than can contact me.
there is a strong lobby whether its a field of Judiciary or buerocracy.
if there were a Jat Justice then certainly the result would be different. i would like to mentioned here , there was only a single Jat justice in Supreme Court Justice Devi Singh Tewatia, after that no one was allivated to Supreme Court, Even at top Position Jat have never been considered being marshal community.

 

[sanjaymalik]

Ravi,

It is actually very absurd and rude to ask bio-data of any person. Certain traditions are also very arguable and many have been changed which were not in the best interest of Community as well as unaaceptable by human rights. Traditions are reflections of many factors, such as personal perspective, geography, development, climate etc. Tradition in reality is very dynamic and these days the changes have been quite rapid. Now engagments are done on phone and talaks are done the same way.

Talking about the aspirations of family and community, the gotra marriage only effects less than the tinnest fraction of community. In community we discourage gays but now even they have got the rights to rightly love and marry. The " main" tradition has been to marry in our our castes so shall we even ask for the amendment of Hindu laws, thereby barring the inter caste marriages?? Those couples who marry outside their caste are in large numbers and they also badly hurt the sentiments of family members. As has been discussed in lenghts, a person if marries another in same gotra, does not see a brother or sister in the other person. He/She should not be doing so just because someone else thinks that they are brothers/sisters. Doesn't it actually sound absurd. Many people disgree with what we do but finally it is upto us to make the final call. And noone does this with the intention to hurt anyone. If someone takes this personaly and feels insulted then I wonder what can be said about this.



Ps:-

No personal attacks will be allowed on members expressing views that go against what the majority think.

rightly said but then, I somehow don't see a line from your post in a good taste... "If you are against such basic traditions, that are quite close the the core values of being a member of the Jat society, then certainly you will be, at the least, entitled to stop calling your self as a member of the Jat community"

Dear Nitin i don't know you are talking about what kind of humam Rights, Human rights does not means to neglect your own community traditions & custom or Human right as your so called modren country i.e USA exercise in Afgan & Iraqa. Even have breaken the every limit of humunity there.Let me know how many engagment which are built on phone have been successful, there is lot of diffence b/w saying and doing, otherwise whatever you are saying try to implement in your own day to day life.

 

[sanjaymalik]

thats a good work by "Shakti Vahini" but its not going to change the system.

if its a good work than the petition filed by our Hon'ble member Mr Naresh Kadyan was wrong. the Court are baised. and start issuing notice just on bloody media report and nothing going to change the mind set of the people.

 

[sanjaymalik]

Earlier people were accusing khap panchayat for Honour killing now i want to know form member who are raising such kind of false and frivlouse aligation against khap panchanyat after some inciedence in Delhi like Ashok vihar etc etc. is their any role of khap panchayat for honour killing. is khap panchyant pressed them for honour killing.

Honour killing is a seprate presective and pls don't linked the same with same gotra marraige, its a personal issue may be due to some other reasons like caste, status of family, etc.

parivar ke atamsman ke thes puchane se aisa hota hai.

 

[sanjaymalik]

Supreme Court ke notice se kucch nhi hoga jab killing karane wale kahe chhuke hain ke agar fir hamari bahen beti ne aisa kiya to uski saja muot hogi.

these are not my words, these are confessional statement of accused person in such type of crimes without no regret.

 

[vijay123]

Court ke tight hone se kafi farak pada hai... now we do not read about panchayats getting involved in such cases. Honor killings pehle bhi hoti thee or aage bhi hoti rahegi, isme ekdum se koi rok nahi lag paayegi, par jahan kuch cases mei panchayat ka involvement rehta tha directly or indirectly, usme jaroor kami aayegi, kyunki koi kisi or ke pachde mei nahi padna chahta. Recently aise kai cases huey hai jinme panchayat ne local administration or media ke dabav mei apne faisle badle hai. Doosra farak yeh hai ki aise cases mei pehle koi karyawahi nahi hoti thee, aise maamlon ko daba diya jata tha, par ab aisa nahi hai. Yeh cases ekdum se highlight ho jaate hai or police par pressure banta hai action ke liye. Atleast jo log pehle aisa yeh soch kar kar dete they ki hamara kuch nahi bigdega, woh aisa karne se pehle 2 baar sochenge or ho sakata hai ki woh apna iraada badal le.

Supreme Court ke notice se kucch nhi hoga jab killing karane wale kahe chhuke hain ke agar fir hamari bahen beti ne aisa kiya to uski saja muot hogi.

these are not my words, these are confessional statement of accused person in such type of crimes without no regret.

 

[vijay123]

Pehle bhi har kisi honor killing mei khap panchayat ka naam nahi aata tha, abhi jo Delhi mei hui hai unme bhi media ne khap panchayat ko blame nahi kiya hai. They were only blamed for cases where they were involved. Mainly it happened due to Manoj-Babli case.

Earlier people were accusing khap panchayat for Honour killing now i want to know form member who are raising such kind of false and frivlouse aligation against khap panchanyat after some inciedence in Delhi like Ashok vihar etc etc. is their any role of khap panchayat for honour killing. is khap panchyant pressed them for honour killing.

Honour killing is a seprate presective and pls don't linked the same with same gotra marraige, its a personal issue may be due to some other reasons like caste, status of family, etc.

parivar ke atamsman ke thes puchane se aisa hota hai.

 

[vijay123]

Recently high court judge of Punjab and Haryana high said that high court is receiving 50-60 petitions from young couples every day, requesting for protection from police and muscleman. Do you think Supreme Court is fool enough to go by few media reports? If the state is involved in harassing young couples, then dont you think that is a good ground for them to be served with a notice? Instead of pressurizing legislature to pass a law against same gotra marriage, Kadyanji went to the court. Since when courts has started making laws, they are there only to interpret and implement the laws. Why to blame them?

if its a good work than the petition filed by our Hon'ble member Mr Naresh Kadyan was wrong. the Court are baised. and start issuing notice just on bloody media report and nothing going to change the mind set of the people.

 

[virj]

Gujjar's Views on the killing in Wazirpur

Dharmaveer Nagar, 45, paternal uncle of Shubha"Apne aap me yeh khoon galat ho sakta hai, par samaj ke liye yeh hatya zaroori thi...is kaam se in larkon ne sahi me ek achcha udaharan pesh kiya hain

The women in our village are treated as sisters. How can there ever be a marriage between a man and his sister! If my daughter follows in Monica's footsteps tomorrow, I will kill her. I will not let her defy tradition," said Sanjay Singh Khari, another uncle of the deceased.

The community youths do not differ with their elders. Nitin, a cousin of Mandeep, said he would prefer to have the British back. "The foreigners never tried to play with our traditions. This government has scant regard for our indigenous culture," he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-tha-says-girls-uncle/articleshow/6084080.cms