"Should the Govt amend HMA to ban 'same-gotra' marriage"?

[vijay123]

Bhai, tajhe to vakil hona chahiye tha, jethmalani ki chutti kar deta.

Thanks for all the references.

1. Kamini Lau judgment: The court didn't declare a same gotra marriage as illegal. This is not new news to us. Given the current HMA, that interpretation is quite clear. It doesn't mean that the custom has been declared as invalid or the community is not allowed to follow it. It just means that no one is forced to follow a custom, which is the same provision for all communities.

2. Conversion cases: The first 3 cases involve polygamy. The issue here is of Hindu males converting to Islam to marry another woman. This compromises the rights of first wife, that court protects in its judgment. Also, the males were Hindu during first marriage. So HMA applies to them. The prevention of abuse of someone's rights is clear from this para as well- "From the above it is clear that after the pronouncement of the aforesaid judicial verdicts, polygamy is no more a valued person for religious conversion into Islam." The Kulundurivalu case is related to adoption and property rights- again someone's rights were compromised here.

No one's rights (as seen in law) are compromised when 2 hitherto unmarried people convert before marriage. The interesting phrase to note is in the Vilayat Raj case, "it was observed by the court that if both the parties to the marriage were Hindu at the time of marriage... ". It says AT the time of marriage. That is significant. What if they are not Hindu at the time of marriage, that is, they convert before marriage? Would HMA apply to them? And also don't abuse their previous spouses' rights by not having any previous spouses? I am sure someone would go down this route if the proposed amendment is incorporated in HMA. Would be interesting to see court's interpretation of the law in that case.

PS: I tried to find the entire Vilayat Raj judgment, but couldn't. Do you have it?

 

[virj]

1. Kamini Lau judgment: The court didn't declare a same gotra marriage as illegal.

The problem is court has in past declared same gotra marriages legal which are/should be illegal as per the customs on which civil laws are (should be ) based.

 

[vijay123]

Yes same gotra marriage are not illegal as per law. Only marriages within the prohibited relationship are and they too are not prohibitive if local custom allows such marriages. In my view making an amendment for the same is not as simple as it appears. People in general are not affected by same gotra marriages and therefore it is on a very low priority for public in general. Only few khap leaders who want to maintain themselves in news are raising this issue to get some attention and create a diversion from dishonor killings. The best approach is to educate kids in moral/social values.

The problem is court has in past declared same gotra marriages legal which are/should be illegal as per the customs on which civil laws are (should be ) based.

 

[virj]

Mate I Understand that. But recently a high court has said Gay sex is legal. Nothing wrong ( as per me) as long as happens behind dark rooms. But Advocates of 'liberty' and 'freedom' are demanding to make same sex marriage legal in India. OK. Based on the priciples of freedom and liberty OK. If my son says u are idiot the law say marriage within same gotra is legal. Havent u read the law? What would i say? Soon people will ask to have nude beaches in India, strip clubs, free sex, marriages between relatives to be made legal or so so. They will ask everything based on western culture. Mate we need to stop somewhere. Based on the priciple of liberty and freedom we cant say no to anything because as per this whole world should have same civil laws.

I dont want our country to become west. Moreover i said earlier I strongly believe that on this issue KHaps has lot of support from other communities as well. The pressure need to be put on the govt so that they can have a fair debate on this or a fair poll. We people also need to be heard. Its not just khaps.

 

[vijay123]

But same gotra marriages were never illegal all this while but did you and me asked our parents for marriage in same gotra? Answer is NO. 99% of jat parents cant even think of their kids marrying in different caste. No one argues with their parents by quoting what is legal and what is not on these matters. Baki gay marriages to amerika bhi recognized nahi hai, only few states of US recognizes them. Also even people in west dont marry with in gotra (same last names) though I am sure it would be legal to marry so as in India. Baki jo log pyar mei andhe hote hai unhe koi law or maa baap nahi dikhai dete. Normal log to waise bhi same gotra mei shaadi nahi karenge, haan 100 - 200 saal baad kya hoga keh nahi sakate, but who cares.

Mate I Understand that. But recently a high court has said Gay sex is legal. Nothing wrong ( as per me) as long as happens behind dark rooms. But Advocates of 'liberty' and 'freedom' are demanding to make same sex marriage legal in India. OK. Based on the priciples of freedom and liberty OK. If my son says u are idiot the law say marriage within same gotra is legal. Havent u read the law? What would i say? Soon people will ask to have nude beaches in India, strip clubs, free sex, marriages between relatives to be made legal or so so. They will ask everything based on western culture. Mate we need to stop somewhere. Based on the priciple of liberty and freedom we cant say no to anything because as per this whole world should have same civil laws.

I dont want our country to become west. Moreover i said earlier I strongly believe that on this issue KHaps has lot of support from other communities as well. The pressure need to be put on the govt so that they can have a fair debate on this or a fair poll. We people also need to be heard. Its not just khaps.

 

[virj]

Intra gotra marriage was always illegal friend as per hinduism and Also as per our society it was illegal. Its only since we had british laws this became legal as the court ruled one such case in around 1935 ( not sure of exact date)

As u said 99% wont do this than whats the harm if this become illegal? Lets forget about those 1% for a sec. Do you personally think this would bring any disadvatage to u or ur family.

 

[singhvp]

This is a superfluous and avoidable exercise which will only obstruct the Government from doing the developmental works. All the energies of the people as well as government are being diverted to this issue while pushing the real agenda of development to the back-burner. I do not know whether Khaps had raised any objection to people like Imran Hashmi of the 'Murder' fame and Malika Sehrawat because that also brought a bad name to the Jats.

 

[vijay123]

Only thing is why to bother and waste our energies on such trivial issues which do not impact any of us. There are so many issues to focus on - education, electricity, infrastructure, dowry, poverty, corruption etc. When there wont be these issues left then definitely people can focus on these kind of issues too.

Intra gotra marriage was always illegal friend as per hinduism and Also as per our society it was illegal. Its only since we had british laws this became legal as the court ruled one such case in around 1935 ( not sure of exact date)

As u said 99% wont do this than whats the harm if this become illegal? Lets forget about those 1% for a sec. Do you personally think this would bring any disadvatage to u or ur family.

 

[vijay]

Only thing is why to bother and waste our energies on such trivial issues which do not impact any of us. There are so many issues to focus on - education, electricity, infrastructure, dowry, poverty, corruption etc. When there wont be these issues left then definitely people can focus on these kind of issues too.

This surely impact the political aspirations of the many people who think that it may boost their political career. Some khap leaders can also remain in limelight.

 

[samarkadian]

Yes same gotra marriage are not illegal as per law. Only marriages within the prohibited relationship are and they too are not prohibitive if local custom allows such marriages. In my view making an amendment for the same is not as simple as it appears. People in general are not affected by same gotra marriages and therefore it is on a very low priority for public in general. Only few khap leaders who want to maintain themselves in news are raising this issue to get some attention and create a diversion from dishonor killings. The best approach is to educate kids in moral/social values.

My dear friend would you please elaborate the ''HOW'' of underlined sentence?

Also, Vijay123 and Vijay, please unmask those 'some' and 'few' attention whores khap leaders . Name them and be precise so that we all can know about the ploy.
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This surely impact the political aspirations of the many people who think that it may boost their political career. Some khap leaders can also remain in limelight.

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Vijay, What is your own stand in thread's poll?

This is a superfluous and avoidable exercise which will only obstruct the Government from doing the developmental works. All the energies of the people as well as government are being diverted to this issue while pushing the real agenda of development to the back-burner. I do not know whether Khaps had raised any objection to people like Imran Hashmi of the 'Murder' fame and Malika Sehrawat because that also brought a bad name to the Jats.

Mr Singh, suppose I 've coronary artery disease and I keep on pasting my face with anti-acne cream , do you think my heart ailment is going to get treated? No, I have to take separate treatment for both ailments.

Further energies of the state are so weak that it can be diverted so easily from devlopment and governance? Thee are no road jams, strikes and violence to stop government spending its energy on development. Rather it is impotency of the state that it is not capable of addressing the issue properly. Prior to the same gotra/amendment issue burned and illuminated the media whorehouses embeded with digital screens , was the development breaking all records of history?

Is development the wholesole issue ?

Agree that government is enjoying this diversion being indifferent but as you know that indifferent attitudes and thoughts gets punished severely by time.

But same gotra marriages were never illegal all this while but did you and me asked our parents for marriage in same gotra? Answer is NO. 99% of jat parents cant even think of their kids marrying in different caste. No one argues with their parents by quoting what is legal and what is not on these matters. Baki gay marriages to amerika bhi recognized nahi hai, only few states of US recognizes them. Also even people in west dont marry with in gotra (same last names) though I am sure it would be legal to marry so as in India. Baki jo log pyar mei andhe hote hai unhe koi law or maa baap nahi dikhai dete. Normal log to waise bhi same gotra mei shaadi nahi karenge, haan 100 - 200 saal baad kya hoga keh nahi sakate, but who cares.

Partly wrong my friend , In andhe logo ko kutru/langda/bahra/andha kanoon kaise dikh jata hai? Ye abnormal kaise hain? Do they have some extra genitals? No they are not. How and why do they get court's protection? Whole issue comes at the point that a social mistake is being justified and protected by court.

Are parents of the killed couples are professional murderes? No they are not.

Yes who cares but since you voted in NO , it shows that you cared. Nyah?
And it is court/law fault that they do not address it rationally.

 

[virj]

Samar, Though excellent, your post is, I have little obejction. Agree that for some social development and social issues are a part of development but for some only toilet(or loo or whatever) or roads is also developement. But yes u are right raising one issue(social) shouldnt/couldnt stop a govt to focus on other issues unless there is total choas on the roads. In fact it may give them a change to hide their incompetency (on development) for a few days. When they throw shoes on each other or yawn (in parliament) at least they can have somthing (though trivial for some people) to discuss.

 

[jitendershooda]

In RatnaKheda Sirsa, a mama eloped with his Bhanji.
They are in Police custody now.

Kapil -
How will court decide in their case that custom doesn't permit this?
What if they will say that they want to follow the Exception provided to South Indians?

 

[brahmtewatia]

the onus is shifted to khap issue and JAT's demand for obc status takes the back seat... this also seems to be manipulated.

can anyone give an update on the other important issue of obc reservation ?

 

[singhvp]

originally written by Samar. Further energies of the state are so weak that it can be diverted so easily from devlopment and governance? Thee are no road jams, strikes and violence to stop government spending its energy on development. Rather it is impotency of the state that it is not capable of addressing the issue properly. Prior to the same gotra/amendment issue burned and illuminated the media whorehouses embeded with digital screens , was the development breaking all records of history?

Though, it is people's democratic right to ask for any amendment in law, but the pragmatic approach is to prioritize the things in such a way that first thing comes first. You would agree under-development is the major issue confronted by the villages. Life of majority of people is not upto the mark. Therefore, issues like education, roads, electricity, remunerative prices of agriculture produce, crop insurance at reasonable premium, are the main issues. Once, we achieve our benchmarks in these fields, we may divert our attention to social reform also, no one is denying your right. But this kind of issues certainly assume second priority. You may be having overwhelming support in society on this issue, but pragmatism demands otherwise.

 

[jitendershooda]

Even in the absence of preferential consanguinity, alleles that are rare in large populations can randomly increase to high frequency in small groups within a few generations due to the founder effect and accelerated genetic drift in a breeding pool of restricted size.[170] For example because the entire Amish population is descended from only a few hundred 18th century German-Swiss settlers, the average coefficient of inbreeding between two random Amish is higher than between two non-Amish second cousins.[171] First-cousin marriage is taboo among Amish but they still suffer from several rare genetic disorders. In Ohio's Geagua County, Amish make up only about 10 percent of the population but represent half the special needs cases. In one debilitating seizure disorder the worldwide total of 12 cases is exclusively Amish.[172] Similar disorders have been found in the highly polygynous FLDS, who do allow first-cousin marriage and of whom 75 to 80 percent are related to two 1930s founders.[173][174]

Jitender - This clearly showed the way to counter same village marriages. Village have a restricted size of population and thus in future we may find the problems among us those Amish People are facing even though they dont marry their first cousins. Thing to be noted is that if they are not practicing first cousin marriages even though due to marriage in same gotra say they are facing these problems.

So same village marriages/same gotra marriages avoidance is also scientific (Contrary to Kapil who said science only favours restriction in close blood relation and not gotra thing)

Dalmatian islands in the Adriatic Sea have indicated a positive association between inbreeding and a very wide range of common adulthood disorders, including hypertension, coronary heart disease, stroke, cancer, uni/bipolar depression, asthma, gout, peptic ulcer, and osteoporosis. However, these results may principally reflect village endogamy rather than consanguinity per se. Endogamy is marrying within a group and in this case the group was a village. The marital patterns of the Amish are also an example of endogamy.

Jitender - Again this loudly says that its better not to marry within same village or small restricted group of people.

Sickle-cell anemia runs in blacks. Tay-Sachs runs in Jews. The best way to curtail such diseases would be to ban marriages within ethnic groups.

http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Jou...03-Garewal/IJHG-03-4-217-219-2003-Garewal.pdf
Thalassemia is the most commonly inherited
disorder worldwide. In India, β- thalassemia
affects different ethnic and geographical groups,
with prevalence of 2-14% in different regions in
an ICMR study (1993). In Punjab the prevalence
reported by Sukumaran and Masters was 6.5%
(1974). The population of Punjab is approximately
15-18 million and is heterogeneous in its caste
structure. Marriages most often take place within
the same caste and it is important to know the
prevalence of β-thalassemia trait amongst the
different castes as well as the distribution of the
various mutations amongst the different castes
for proper counseling and prenatal diagnosis.
We have studied the prevalence of β-thalassemia
and the β-gene mutations in Punjabis belonging
to different castes. This data is useful for planning
cost effective screening programmes as well as
providing genetic counseling and prenatal
diagnosis.

Table 1: Caste structure of 780 individuals with β-
thalassemia trait
Castes Number of cases Percentage (%)
Khatri-Arora 372 47.8
Jats + Jat Sikhs 110 1 4
Brahmin 62 8
Baniyas 60 7.7
Harijans 38 4.9
Kamboh 16 2
Sunar 10 1.2
Rajput 10 1.2
Lobana 8 1
Lohar 8 1
Ramgarhia 8 1
Zeer 8 1
Suni 8 1
Bazigar 6 0.75
Total 780 100
DISCUSSION
The prevalence of the β-thalassemia trait in
Punjabis has

All of the above clearly shows that Same Gotra/Same village avoidance have somewhere scientific evidences too. I also wrote one question on JL just like the same Kapil quoted somewhere about Same Gotra relevance ....
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...e-our-heritage&p=243229&viewfull=1#post243229

But later I didnt find any better approach than this present one. If you have any then please share.

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

In RatnaKheda Sirsa, a mama eloped with his Bhanji.
They are in Police custody now.

Kapil -
How will court decide in their case that custom doesn't permit this?
What if they will say that they want to follow the Exception provided to South Indians?

They should Convert
Get Married and Call NEO LIBERALS in their marriage
I am sure atleast one jatlander will go for sure to bless bride and groom

 

[vijay]

Also, Vijay123 and Vijay, please unmask those 'some' and 'few' attention whores khap leaders . Name them and be precise so that we all can know about the ploy.

The poor show in public and on channels doesn't need any prove about their capabilites and intentions. Morever, i suppose we have enough topics to discuss here rather than starting other irrelevent discussion on the people.

Vijay, What is your own stand in thread's poll?

My stand on the issue is very clear since the first day.

If you are asking about 'casting my vote' then it seems ridiculous to me that instead of discussing the significance, impacts, valid points, legal complexicities, constitutional prcedures and the long term consequences of the proposed amendment etc .. people are more interested in discussing the issue of "My Vote"

If some people thinks that people who didn't caste their voted are not suppose to discuss here then why don't they close the thread and approach the parlimentory committee or other suitable official to introduce the resolution for Amendment in Parliament. And yes, don't forget to attach the voting results of this thread as it may impress them significantly. Even a Dictator can not ignore the wishes of 87% people.

I suppose the stupid argument of asking to caste my vote ends here as there is neither any LAW nor any CUSTOM which says that a person who didn't vote cannot participate in the discussion.

Are parents of the killed couples are professional murderes? No they are not.

Nobody is born professional and every professional do 'something' for the first time.

 

[hemanthooda]

Nice Editorial in Yesterday's TOI....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...A-Question-Of-Balance/articleshow/5941357.cms

The writer have echoed most of our views.....Imp point

If Muslims are allowed to have their own personal law board & set of rules , then why not Jats?

Otherwise why not implement common civil code..This UPA govt is hell bent to do so called minority appeasement.

I would like liberals to comment on the same..

 

[kusumdhochak]

I would like to point out these particular sections of the above article:

"But those who wish to opt out of gotra-based identities have to be allowed to do so, without fear of criminal forms of coercion. The Special Marriage Act exists precisely to legalise marriages of those who wish to opt out of their community's customary practices and restrictions. Clan or family members of such rebels have the right to disown and disinherit such persons but cannot be given the right to hound them to death. "

"I hope khap leaders understand that even if intra-gotra marriages are included in the prohibited list of relationships for Jats, the state cannot allow them to hold kangaroo courts and carry out brutal murders. Resorting to barbaric means to prevent same-gotra marriages is a sure sign of the declining moral authority of khap panchayats. It is also a sign that criminal elements have acquired hold over these bodies. Their influence will decline further if this trend is not reversed and they continue trampling over individual freedoms. Nor are they likely to succeed within our legal and constitutional framework in forcing the government to put all such people behind bars. They can at best use moral persuasion to urge youngsters to avoid marrying within the gotra. "

And if you read carefully the posts of all those people who have been speaking against the need of amendment and/or against taking harsh steps against couples who choose not to follow this custom, you will see that they have been trying to say the same things. No one here is saying that these customs are bad or backward and should be forgotten.
The whole point is that we should not try to force it on anyone.

Nice Editorial in Yesterday's TOI....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...A-Question-Of-Balance/articleshow/5941357.cms

The writer have echoed most of our views.....Imp point

If Muslims are allowed to have their own personal law board & set of rules , then why not Jats?

Otherwise why not implement common civil code..This UPA govt is hell bent to do so called minority appeasement.

I would like liberals to comment on the same..

 

[sanjaymalik]

Thanks for all the references.

1. Kamini Lau judgment: The court didn't declare a same gotra marriage as illegal. This is not new news to us. Given the current HMA, that interpretation is quite clear. It doesn't mean that the custom has been declared as invalid or the community is not allowed to follow it. It just means that no one is forced to follow a custom, which is the same provision for all communities
Mine reply -if court is not recognizing the customs,how it can be enforce or protected.How u will protect such custom?An authority which is supposed to be gaurdian of law and fairness if allow same gotra marriage instead of long standing restriction by almost all comunities. is it not illegal?
if it is the same provisions of all comunities than why their is saving clause in HMA and pharse like "where there is custom allow". as per your interpratation what about that custom does not allow.