Slums and Dogs

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My 2 cents

To be honest, I don't know what the fuss is about this movie. Probably I was disappointed with it as I went with high expectations. But even stand alone, if I discount my expectations and the fact that it shows India in bad (some would argue correct) light, I think it is a very average movie. Not worthy of awards for sure, and definitely not of Oscars, if one considers them to be the pinnacle of movie awards. Personally, I think the awards are about marketing/hype- and to an extent they are because the westerners don't see such movies often. But comeon- AR Rehman getting a nomination for Jai Ho- Does it even compare with the masterpieces he has given in the past? At its core, Slumdog is a bollywood movie with all sorts of masala and the feel-good factor of underdog coming up tops. This kind of thing is new to the west and hence they liked it, but we have been there and done that and done it much better. You take any theme or scene- you can find a much better parallel in Indian cinema- brothers' conflict (deewar,etc.), underworld (Satya,company), prostitution (chandni bar, etc.), conning foreigners on Tajmahal (Bunty and Babli), riots, romance,etc. (too many to name). For me the test is this- would I like to watch Slumdog again? Never. While I can and have watched the better made movies a number of times.

On the issue of portrayal of India, personally, I didn't like it. Though I don't think it is any tamacha on our face. Lots of it is probably real or realistic. There is no denying the poverty or the conditions of people in slums. But if you see the movie as a whole, they have taken each and every stereotype about India and put it in the movie- garbage, slums, beggars, riots, child trafficking, brutal police, underworld, poverty, arrogant super-stars, tajmahal, conning foreigners at tajmahal, prostitution, minority persecution, call centers and what not- you name it and they have it in there (though to be fair, I didn't see an elephant and a snake charmer). It is that particular Western view of India, where nothing right can ever happen here, which gets to you. Actually, they could have named the movie "How to rediscover India again and again and come up with the same stuff yet again". I won't have had any issues if they had taken a particular or some particular negative themes and did justice to them. But it is the skimming through issues just to deliberately touch on everything negative that put me off. It is as if the director made a laundry list of all the bad stuff he had ever heard of and then just laid it down one after the other. You start feeling the stereotypes when the slumdog is shown as Jamal whose mom gets killed by hindu rioters. And you have had enough when the game host show introduces Jamal as a chaiwallah and then constantly mocks him as chaiwallah through out the show. Which game show host in India would go so horribly politically incorrect on reality TV? Again, my contention is not that nothing wrong happens in India. And I don't have an issue with the director showing 'wrong' things about India. But I have an issue with him selectively showing wrong things and generating an impression that nothing right happens in India.
 
RK Sir, i agree with all the points raised by you. definitely, those points need to be attended to sincerely by our society and by us. there is no debate on that.
the movie, i still dont agree on.


rkumar said:
I agree only partly with you Navin on this. West has shown our good side also. These days they are showing the story of India on one american channel. More and more people in USA are learning for the first time how great the Indian culture has been. However, let us face it, we Indians (Hindus) are very individualistc in everything and care very little for fellow Indians. Individual Karma only matters for our ticket to heaven. We shout from roof tops when poor tribals are lured to become Christians. How often VHP takes their cause and fights for them ? Poor people in India are treated like vote banks and no one cares. It hurts middle class Indian pride when our slums are shown on TV. However, we rarely fight for cleaning these slums. More than the makers of slumdog, I blame my fellow countrymen for creating such slums in the middle of big cities. Why can't middle class come in streets like they came after 26/11 ? Why our media can't become active on slums and other similar issues? Are these slums and the poor people living there not part of India? If we have closed our eyes towards them, what is wrong if someone from out side reminds us ?

RK^2
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1. its not only me who feels movie is average or below average.
2. a white guy making a film on indian slum to easily be nominated for oscar doesnt go down well with me. it is too expected an idea.
a) the film hasnt been made to bring out the cause of people in poverty
b) it doesnt give any message directly or indirectly
c) none of the big money it earns will be used for welfare activity for people living in slums

the only thing the movie can do is inspire lot of poor people to spend money on calling up reality shows.

at the end of the day it doesnt matter if the movie wins ten oscars, we all have to go ahead with routine lives but i have expressed a very valid point of view.
 
navingulia said:
why does 'indian slumdog' make it to oscars where as 'mangal pandey', rang de basanti, lagaan, mother india, guru, and so many masterpieces on indian culture fail? how come its so easy for indian slumdog to make it to oscars??
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Navin , My stab at it would be again something we are already discussing in another thread. We all are more biased towards picking up the negative of things , there is an inherent appeal to the same.

If we consider emotions , I am pretty sure we experience positives and negatives of similar degree , but we are not so great at appreciating the positive ones , but are very meticulous about making sure we recongise the negative one with care. :)


Not sure , but that's my take on it. Agree?
 
i agree anil.
blatant, shocking show of crime, violence, poverty, nudity easily gets acclaimed as art. if it carries a message its fine but if it doesnt...

anilsinghd said:
Navin , My stab at it would be again something we are already discussing in another thread. We all are more biased towards picking up the negative of things , there is an inherent appeal to the same.

If we consider emotions , I am pretty sure we experience positives and negatives of similar degree , but we are not so great at appreciating the positive ones , but are very meticulous about making sure we recongise the negative one with care. :)


Not sure , but that's my take on it. Agree?
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well i dont know wot to say...but have something to say... goras recognize india as a land of beggars and snake charmers and we recognize america as a land of ferrari owners ...

they have shown wot an indian tourist guide doesnt show....


i enjoyed the film before the interval....that potty scene was amazing....american kids can wear jordan t shirts,they can have posters of shummi on their walls but only indian kids can play this hardcore fan character role....that was great....:p;)....

i accept everything in the movie...we have to face the fact that mumbai is going to get a trophy for the slums but the only thing i dint like >>>

director dint show even aa single good thing of slumdogs:rolleyes::mad:

people dont feel so bad....now the ball is in our court...even we can make a film with great ideas like goras are unhygienic ...a roll of tissue paper in toilet doesnt fulfill the standards of HYGIENE...;););););)
 
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navingulia said:
Slums and Dogs

1. The movie projects that India is all about slums and dogs, something the western world loves to see and feel.
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The western world does not love to see slums and dogs. In fact people in America and the rest of west feel sorry for the suffering poor people of India. Every year American alone give away billions of dollars in charity to help poor people in developing countries.

People in India need to stop thinking of western people to be heartless sons of bitches who relish every bit of suffering that people in the developing countries go through.

navingulia said:
2. The quality of direction and movie making is poor.
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True! Very True! The movie sucked!

navingulia said:
3. In the show anil kapoor and his audience mocks and laughs at the participant when they come to know he is a poor chaaiwaala. In Indian society, I have never seen any one making fun of a poor person for his poverty in public. But the movie tells the world that Indian society is like this.
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Dont forget you are watching a drama movie. You are not watching Big Brother. Dont expect a sliver of reality from moves based ob dramatic themes.

navingulia said:
4. There isnt and there never was any ngo in mumbai that kidnaps street children and makes them beg after maiming them, cutting arms and legs or binding them.
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I think you missed the point here. The kidnappers were posing as a NGO. They were in fact a gang of thugs.

And yes! I have personally seen thousands of kids with similar physical disabilities begging on the streets of India.


navingulia said:
5. AR Rahman deserves oscar but for his other music given earlier, music in earlier films has been far better but still, he is probably the only deserving nomination.
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I agree on this one too. Music sucked in the movie!

navingulia said:
6. Police in mumbai doesnot hang boys in their police station and give them electric shocks to find out if he has cheated in a reality show.
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India has one of the worst track records when it comes to torture by police and other paramilitary personnel.

navingulia said:
7. I have till date never come across a beggar child whose eyes had been burnt by pouring hot oil into them. If it doesn’t happen, why do they show that.
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Come on Gulia bhai! What world you are living in? I thought you were into social work. I have seen similarly disabled beggars all over India. And so have millions of others who have seen the movie and shared their opinions.


navingulia said:
8. when in one scene the boy tells the white american lady, see, this is real india, she takes out money and gives him saying and this is real america. Meaning india is bad and they are good.
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I just saw that scene again so I can make an informed comment on this one.

Come on Gulia bhai! Give me a break! It is about social justice. The woman handed out a 100 dollar bill to compensate the kid for the beating.

People do not travel to India so that they can reinforce their negative opinions about the country. Infact such misinformed individuals never travel outside their country.

Most of the people who travel to India do it for getting a break along with a spiritual renewal. People in the west think India is a very spiritual country and has a way of life that heals the scars of day to day struggles.


navingulia said:
9. What surprises me is that much better movies which projected indian society and its values as good and strong (mother india, lagaan) did not succeed at oscar and when you show india as poor and pathetic, you make it.
Can the possibility of getting ‘Oscar’ buy us into accepting this movie as great??
Amitabh Bachan rightly said “I did not want to be part of this film in any way” and he was very right when he said “the world should realise india is not all about slums and dogs”
Anil Kapoor said at a conference after golden globe “I feel like a slumdog myself having made it here” (how willingly he is looking down on himself)
Am I wrong in my observation?
Navin Gulia

Btw – slumdog is not an indian film, it is made by Warner bros.
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It is a matter of choice. I personally agree wtih you that the movie isnt oscar material. Infact here in America it is the critics who are more excited about the movie than the regualr viewers.

People in India need to stop looking at themselves as victims everytime someone shares their perspective of their country.

The movie has done a good job at bringing out a major problem of child suffering in India.

One of the reaosns people in America are so shocked by the movie is because there is a culture of life in this country. Human life is appreciated. Human suffering is looked down upon. People are finding it unbelievable that someone somewhere in the world is suffering so much.

By the way, people in the west think of Indians as very intelligent, highly educated and overqualified individuals. They think of us as doctos, scientists and engineers. They think of India as a very religious and spiritual country. They think of Indians in India as nice warm-hearted and welcoming individuals.

Ofcourse all those myths are bashed as their men are beaten up, their women raped and their belonging stolen, when they visit India. I have personally witnessed people ripping off unsuspecting western tourists; not once by tens of times.

India is a great country for Indians only. Thats becuase we have adapted to life as it is here. We dont see things from the perspective of the outsiders; something that I got to do after moving to America.

Look, the point I am trying to make is that people in India need to stop looking down upon westerners as downright mean-hearted individuals. But ofcourse you cannot do it unless you see things out here for yourself the way I see it.
 
Phool Sir, again i agree with most points raised by you. i dont hate americans or for that matter people on any other country including pakistan.

but my point is same 'a white man making a movie on indian poverty/slums' is too obvious an idea. (i can however concede that i used harsher words than necessary at places)

i always follow a thumbrule of not following 'hear say'. i again say, i might have seen handicapped children but with my little knowledge i havent seen a single case where a child was maimed deliberately. the crimes against children i have seen are:-
1. keeping them dirty and underfed
2. not getting them medical attention when they are ill and so in a way letting them die.
3. putting children into begging and the society encouraging it by turning a blind eye.

the movie just showed hearsay and gossip material.

slumdog wouldnt be deciding the destiny of this world or even our society. i have criticised it as a critique, reiterating regularly that its only my opinion. thats all

but definitely , i am finding the discussions on the movie intresting because very diverse versions are coming up.
 
Aap ek baar ye video dekhiye... Rabbi ne ek ye bhi 'real' India dikhaayi hai apne ek gaane ke dwaara... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0EdbEsE0pw

Kissi bhai ne aaj tak kuch kyun nahi kaha? Kyunki ye ek Indian ne gaaya hai ya fir ek Jat ne gaaya hai? Maana ki ye mahez ek gaana hai aur movie bade peymaane pe dikhaayi jaati hai... par still... Rabbi ne on behalf of those 4 sufferers (http://kamotim.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/amazing-song-jinhe-naaz-hai-hind-par-woh-kahan-hai/) poocha hai apne hi deshvaasiyo ko ki kaha the bhai tum jab ye ho raha tha humaare HIND me... aur ab kaha ho jab ye ho hi raha hai...

agar aap gaur karenge ispe to yahi paayenge ki inki baaten bhi galat nahi hai. gaane ko to ye bhi issi gaane me kuch acchi baat bhi keh sakte the Hindustaan ke baare me, hain na? Agar yahi soch hai to inko kyun nahi question karta koi? btw... Im a big fan of Rabbi and this song is really very nice. And there's another one from him 'Jugni'... http://rabbism.blogspot.com/2005/07/jungi-rabbi-shergill-lyrics.html

Lyrics thode mushkil hai catch karne shuru me issiliye paste kar de raha hu...

Bilqis: Jinhe naaz hai hind par
-RABBI​


Mera naam Bilqis Yakub Rasool
Mujhse hui bas ek hi bhool
Ki jab dhhundhhte thhe vo Ram ko
To maen khadi thhi, rah mein
Pehle ek ne puchha na mujhe kuchh pata thha
Dujey ko bhi mera yehi javab thha
Fir itno ne puchha ki mera ab saval hai ki
Jinhe naaz hai hind par vo kahan the
Jinhe naaz hai vo kahan hain


Mera naam Shriman Satyendra Dubey
Jo kehna thha vo keh chukey
Ab padhey hain rah mein
Dil mein liye ek goli
Bas itna kasoor ki hamne likha thaa
Vo sach jo har kisi ki zuban thaa
Par sach yahan ho jatey hain zehreelay
Jinhe naaz hai hind par vo kahan the
Jinhe naaz hai vo kahan hain


Mujhe kehte hain anna Manjunath
Maine dekhi bhatakti ek laash
Zamir ki beech sarhak Lakhimpur Kherhi
Adarsh phasa jahan naaron mein
Aur chor bharey darbaron mein
Vahan maut akhlaq ki hai ik khabar baasi
Jinhe naaz hai hind par vo kahan the
Jinhe naaz hai vo kahan hain


Mazha nau aahe Navleen Kumar
Unnees june unnees bar
Unnees unnees unnees unnees
Unnees baar
Unnees unnees unnees unnees
Unnees unnees unnees unnees
Unnees unnees unnees unnees
Unnees baar
Looto dehaat kholo bazaar
Nallasopara aur Virar
Chheeno zameen hamse humhe
Bhejo pataal
Jinhe naaz hai hind par vo kahan the
Jinhe naaz hai vo kahan hain
 
Absolutely right!
coolphool said:
People in India need to stop looking at themselves as victims everytime someone shares their perspective of their country.

By the way, people in the west think of Indians as very intelligent, highly educated and overqualified individuals. They think of us as doctos, scientists and engineers. They think of India as a very religious and spiritual country. They think of Indians in India as nice warm-hearted and welcoming individuals.
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coolphool said:
People do not travel to India so that they can reinforce their negative opinions about the country. Infact such misinformed individuals never travel outside their country.

Most of the people who travel to India do it for getting a break along with a spiritual renewal. People in the west think India is a very spiritual country and has a way of life that heals the scars of day to day struggles.


Correcto!

People in India need to stop looking at themselves as victims everytime someone shares their perspective of their country.

Bang On !
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Great writing style Phool , add me to the list of fans of yours , I love the crispness you offer! :)
 
what i liked about Phools remarks was that he agreed and disagreed. it wasnt one sided.
however, i would want to express a point of view thats different on some points:-
1. we grow up hearing stories from elder family members that children are kidnapped and their eyes gouged out or hands and legs cut. this scares the children in remaining safe. now i would ask every one to consciously try and remember when did they last see a child beggar whose eyes seemed to have been deliberately blinded or limbs cut??? if any such case anyone can tell, i can promise to immediate action on ground.

2. foreigner women are attacked and raped if they come to india??? is definitely an extreme exaggeration. in goa case a mother left her teenage daughter doing drugs and alchohol in care of strangers. in jaipur case it appeared consensual turning sour later but the guy got life term. in chandigarh, 5 guys got rigorous life imprisonment. while i personally would condemn even one case of eve teasing. i feel the statement that foreigner women are attacked and raped in india makes it sound so prevalent.

3. You made a statement like 'poor us, we dont like others showing us a mirror' , considering ourselves victims. thats not the case my friend, my criticism was very specific to film that a film just by showing extreme cases of police torture, poverty and dirt, as if it is prevalent here and getting nominated for 10 oscars, doesnt go down well with me.


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a different point, will america like to see mirror????
1. except for pearl harbor they have always faught wars in other countries and usualy places they had no business. korea, vietnam, aphghanistan....
2. 60yrs of blockade on iran.
3. their carpet bombing in countries like iraq, aphghanistan, vietnam and the atomic bombs might have wiped a fifth of the worlds civilian population - men, women and children. has there ever been a movie or news on that???
4. they have run the worlds economy with their might to suit themselves, sold arms to both warring sides, kept conflicts alive to sell weapons.
5. abu gharib or guantenemo bay werent just two cases. they were the two which came out.
6. yes, some people will call them smart, i agree. but they definitely arent a greater people than others.
they can spend a two trillion dollars on war without a hiccup. an amount that could have been used to remove poverty from the world or but would they want the rest of the world to be as developed as them?? i doubt
Obama does give me hope.

every one in west wants to do charity (ahsaan), not many wanna do seva (service). when i was a child sometimes i would catch a bird hurting it in the process and then caring for it, feeling great that i was doing nice. i grew up thankfully. it is time america grew up too.

see the normal/average american citizens might be softspoken or gentlemanly and sensible too. there are lots of things about the amreican society which i appreciate a lot but a couple of posts on this thread showed us as 'losers' who are wanting to crib. it is not that way

it is not only the islamic world which is projecting the 'us versus them' image, america is doing it to its advantage, where ever it wants

i am still to see a movie that will show america the mirror and make it to oscars.
 
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again it might only be a way i see it
but for one america to be as developed as spending two trillion dollars on a war without effecting its economy there has to be a poorer part in the world
for some indians to be as rich as spending 400crores on a daughters wedding there has to be poorer indians.


please read the link sent by sid. the production house of slumdog has paid a pittance to the child artists and when asked why they were given such less pay, they said that the children have been paid three times the amount an average person earns in their neighbourhood they come from. very justified????
 
I am sorry Phool, but I don't agree with some of the points mentioned by you. Just to be clear, that doesn't mean that I am speaking in favor of Guliaji's points. I have put my 2 cents earlier on the thread.

While I fully agree with you that we shouldn't generalise the western people as heartless son of bitches, but similarly we can't generalise them as Indophiles who think of India as spiritual country full of intelligent people. There would be pockets of India-lovers and India-haters, but majority of the people are indifferent to India. And when they see a movie like Slumdog, they definitely take back a negative impression of the country. I personally had the experience of being quizzed by some of my colleagues here about whether "all this stuff really happens?".

In my opinion, the movie makes a mockery of child suffering. Just highlighting a problem can't be glorified. The movie just exaggerates each and every suffering and then quickly moves on- as you yourself said it is supposed to be dramatic- then why burden it with noble causes? The problem of how children are used for begging was much more effectively and truthfully shown in Madhur Bhandarkar's Traffic Signal. How many of the beggars in India would have had the experience of forced amputations or blindings? While I don't deny the possibility of such brutality, these are no way common occurrences. But you can be rest assured that the next time an ignorant foreigner, who has watched the movie, comes to India and sees a blind beggar, he'd be certain about the cause. And the movie is full of such stereotypes which are exaggerated multiple times. Just think about it- each and every person shown in the movie apart from the hero and the heroine has been shown as negative (brutal/rude/inhuman) in one way or the other (can think of only one exception- the mother who is killed anyways). And the so called beauty of the movie is that the hero/heroine come out tops despite the sh*t show all around. Just mathemetically speaking, it is difficult for someone to meet bad people 100% of the time. Much more difficult than a slumdog to win a million. If they wanted to be realisitic, they could have spared a few characters- why show the gamehost indulging in mocking a chaiwallah?

Finally, the bit below you wrote is too self-degrading in my opinion.

coolphool said:
Ofcourse all those myths are bashed as their men are beaten up, their women raped and their belonging stolen, when they visit India. I have personally witnessed people ripping off unsuspecting western tourists; not once by tens of times.

India is a great country for Indians only. Thats becuase we have adapted to life as it is here. We dont see things from the perspective of the outsiders; something that I got to do after moving to America.
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Sh*t happens in India. But it happens everywhere. What about the Indian students killed in US? Or the British girl abducted in Spain? Any tabloid worth its salt would have one such incident everyday from some corner of the earth. Forget such big incidents, there are incidents of racial abuse, mugging, molestations, etc. happening everyday in the West. And many a times, Indians are at receiving end. Look my point is not to indulge in a shouting match on who is more evil. There are all sorts of people at all sorts of places. While people in West are not heartless son of bitches, we too are not a country of thugs and rapists. Also, the fact that these things happen everywhere should be no excuse for us. We should try our best to avoid them, not only for foreigners, but for everyone. But frankly, I didn't see the need of beating ourselves down (unfairly) on a debate about a silly movie.
 
Slum Dog Millionaire !

Well so many points discussed already.

I believe first and foremost it’s a movie and must be seen as a movie only. No need to draw too much inferences out of it.

This movie is made for a commercial purpose just like any other movie. I saw this movie much before it was officially released in India and before it was acknowledged at Golden Globe awards. I had no high expectations from it as is the case with award winning movies. It was recommended by a friend says it’s a good movie. And I found it Good ! Let me explain why.

At the end of movie one gets a good feeling ... triumph of personal responsibility against all hardships. A person purely being lucky, taking his chances and things going in his favour, he had nothing to loose but something to gain. He is holding on to only one hope to meet/win over his lady (Latika). He becomes a hero by fluke. Its pure drama .... set of events turning a normal man into a rich person and his lady love making it to his life.

It is a low budget movie (when compared to many Bollywood movies ). What ever is shown in movie need not happen or does not happen as such in India. After all it’s a movie and not a documentary film.
But what ever is shown in movie, one thing is for sure its very well set in Indian context, if ever possible it can happen only in India. It is directed and presented in such a way that it appears close to real life in India. Look and feel of game show, site of shooting Taj Mahal and Mumbai slums etc.

Now comes the problem part, its effects.

What will a foreign national viewer get out of this movie? Simple answer is he'll get what ever he's looking for in it. If he's looking for half filled glass he will see it, else if he wants to the empty half he'll see that too. But why should we be worried at what he's seeing. Obviously their opinion about India would not be just based on this particular movie. It’s all together a different debate how does this opinion affect any one in India.

Any Indian watching this movie might feel offended at India's Slums and some incidents being shown as is the case here. Some members are taking this as a slap in their and India’s face.

American press giving reviews about the movie starting with something like “A Muslim, oppressed child in India.... ". Providing religious angle to the whole movie.

All this fame and controversy about whose saying what created around the movie is just to augment the sales and viewer ship.

The movie is getting all this limelight in west is because its directed and produced by Brits and only reason we are discussing it here is also same, a story about India being told by a Brit to the West.

On way of looking at this movie could be that though we have much good cinema here in India as compared to this movie we Indians appreciate the effort and are tolerant enough to take it as a movie in spite of all the flaws in it. We need not embrace it or reject it but take a movie as a movie being aware of all goods and the bad in it.
 
Moreover what is nice about movie is that hero chooses to be humble and down to earth yet firm and not taking it to underworld like his brother. Keeping soft corner for his childhood friend. How almost every question relates to an incident from his life.
 
please understand the movie is made for commercial purposes, and it is surely the producers delight, if talked about culture then we as a society has so many shortcomings which are depicted in many films from Bollywood/Hollywood.

one fact to realise - the characters in film roll around muslim names, why ? does those names reflect the whole of India,the slums? NO.. Christians and Muslims are the leading races in today's times and Islamic names are more familiar in the west, just to co-relate :) with audience and are living in much larger no. of population size. The film has been made by a person who is expert in world cinema and knows what to deliver to audience & he is no bollywood producer/director he has to take into account his audience, in fact Indian distributors were not willing to invest in this film and only after the announcement of the film to be nominated for oscars and it's chances of success they started to run after it :eek: the producer must not have taken Indian earnings to a large extent in his account while financially planning the SM project.

As for the stories of showing India in a bad state, the poverty and crime (even torture is a crime) the director has done no crime because that is the actual state of affair here, arrr phir director/writer (an indian as suggested in earlier post) antaryaami tae hoga nahi aur na hi west or christian propagandists, opinions form either from experience or from reliable information and statistics aarrr deekhey woh aae sei hai jo hakikat ho hai; haaan thodi bahut seasoning tou ho hi jaati hai.:rolleyes:

waise isstey zayada GHAZNI ki ninda honi chahiyea thi jo ki aek remake ki remake hai ... what a shame, in fact that really weakens the Indian cinema's creativity credentials in front of the world more than any other films of recent times here.:tamatar:mad: aakhir unauthorised remake chori nahi tou kya hai aur woh hum aksar proove kartey rehetey hai chahe annu malik ho yaa phir many a such remake baadshah's, so navin bhai what reputation are we discussing here as far as cinema and depiction of indian society is concerned, please take a serious note of what we really project in front of the world, do we really need enemies like you pointed out ? when we provide respect and give shelter to our stealing classes :eek:
 
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