Social Signalling thru Expenditure on Marriages

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Dear Friends and members:
I was reading an Matrimonial ad on Jatland and i am humbled by the fact that the person has clearly said he cant spend more than Rs.3.5 Lakhs. I want to shout and tell him why does he wants to spend even that much? I mean why does he have to bother to spend a penny for parting with someone raised,educated and grown up in his family. It is disgusting; the mentality of our people must change and the system has to act collectively with the leaders of the society taking a lead in breaking this nasty useless practice.
What purpose does this waste serve and i begin to think that in an underdeveloped economy the institutional failure of having a secure livelihood means that some kind of signalling must be taking place. Signalling is a device by which people send signals of their "type"; in this case they are sending signals that they are "wealthy" types to the networks they are trying to create and utilise when things are not working the proper way; (Dowry seems a different kind of signaling device and a price which can be used to buy better quality groom). If this thing has become more prominent overtime it indicates greater institutional failure than captured by the other indicators and negates the growth story (remember "india shining" created by the BJP) splattered across the media and internet.
No doubt i have met people in USA who take pride in the fact that "my daughter is a friend of the Judge's daughter who came over and stayed with us" but the fact remains that with working institutions this tendency is a remnant of the mindset developed within the territorial boundries of India (And i like the fact that kids raised here dont reflect or behave the way i find desis to behave).
What i want to tell people is that they need to judge the costs and benefits of their expenditure act (which is seen as a tool for enhancing honour) before acting on their plan. (Beware of half-literate relatives who might be scaring you to drain you of your lifetime savings). Also think that money in hand is a more secure device(better than the word of fickle networks) to tide with the kind of uncertainty you are scared of and your power to bargain in social contracts , or ensuring better livelihood/education of your remaining kith and kin takes a beating.
If you are the courageous kind, all friends and relatives who are implicitly trying to impose their expectations on you must be thrown out of the window quickly. If you must spend money give it to couple rather than the extravagant waste which creates other social problems. Do not negotiate with people who expect this kind of expenditure and hire local goons to beat them up if you cant do it yourself.If you think not enough people will turn up for the wedding if it is low cost send me an email and i can arrange for at least 5 highly educated graduate students visiting Delhi who will be grateful to join you and devour your delicious food and will be worth making friends with.
Think Rational. Take pride in the quality of your kids.
Anmol Ratan.
 
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Jats are known to waste their hard earned money on the marriage ceremonies, even at the cost of taking loans. May be things are changing and they must as there is no point in wasting the hard earned money in a few hours of time.
 
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Dear Memebers

Dev jee U said jats wasted their hard money on marriage, So i ask u a question that do u think spending money on marriage of ur daughter/son is waste(I mention here i strongly oppose dowry). I dont think spending money on marriage is waste if u have the money. Why we earn money in our life so that we can fulfill all our desires so this is also a part of desire. Yes i m agree that Dowry is a social evil but apart from dowry there are several ways to spend money in the marriage. So i think we shouldn't ceiticise this by saying spending money on marriage is a waste. How do we know abt that person whether he is been donating money for the social causes throughout his life or not. So Lets give it a second thought also and i say all parents have a desire that their son/daughter will get all the happiness in life and marriage is also a part of that.

Abhimanyu Phougat
 
positivelook said:
Dear Memebers

Dev jee U said jats wasted their hard money on marriage, So i ask u a question that do u think spending money on marriage of ur daughter/son is waste(I mention here i strongly oppose dowry). I dont think spending money on marriage is waste if u have the money. Why we earn money in our life so that we can fulfill all our desires so this is also a part of desire. Yes i m agree that Dowry is a social evil but apart from dowry there are several ways to spend money in the marriage. So i think we shouldn't ceiticise this by saying spending money on marriage is a waste. How do we know abt that person whether he is been donating money for the social causes throughout his life or not. So Lets give it a second thought also and i say all parents have a desire that their son/daughter will get all the happiness in life and marriage is also a part of that.

Abhimanyu Phougat





Bhai Abhimanyu, if one has money let him burn it the way he wants. what i want to say is that when one does not have money and can't afford it[which majority of our people do], it will tax the indvidual and his family. It was my observation based on first hand information. Let them do what they are doing, who am i to stop them? But surely the wasteful expenditure can be avoided and the money thus saved can be used for the good of that family like education and security of the family. Rest you are wise enough and can have a better idea about the issue. Thanks for the question dear. Anmol bhai yo JUDGE KI DAUGHTER AALLA context samajh nahin aaya? Can you clarify? Thanx.
 
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Again Misunderstanding

Hi all,
Mentioned 3.5 Lakh is not DOWRY.

It is just some clarification of the amount anybody can spend on the marriage ceremony. It gives some idea of the family standard so as to have a match with the similar status family.
Match of similar status family prove to be more successful as compared to other. Some 19-20 is no problem.
Without spending a single rupee nobody cann't even do the court marriage.
DOWRY is a crime, I again say but if somebody want to spend some money in the marriage ceremony to make it memorable in the soceity, I donn't think it is a waste.so please don't be confused or misunderstood.
Bye
RAHUL NADAR
 
I agree with Anmol's point of money being used as a signal of prosperity. In more colloquial terms it is termed as show off. In the societies we come from it is often vulgar and very extravagant, I have seen from people throwing money in the air to 10 ft pyramids of ferrero rocher chocolates in weddings. Nobody leaves a stone unturned to show off what they have and what they are capable of.
And, I observe a certain genuity in this signaling. Sometimes these actions can be beyond acting, they can simply be a way someone enjoys or party. I think this signaling is what makes our Indian weddings so much fun. And it is not just the bride's or groom's family that opens their vaults, everyone seems to jump on the bandwagon. And these weddings do show that how people who work hard all their lives party even harder.
If I would have read that message I would have simply thought that the writer is saying that he can afford to have a party worth 3.5 lakhs. Come on everyone thinks about their marriage and how much fun it is going to be, and how much they can afford,especially the ones who think that marriages are for good. So what's wrong with it?
And from a rational point of view, every one has a different utility function, some people get more utility from saving their hard earned cash and some get higher utility by being big spenders. So if someone can spend and also enjoy it then why shouldnt one do that. Why should we call them uneducated or backward.
And why all of a sudden this social perssure becomes negative, I believe this social pressure has also helped in many of our students' achievements. I think its easier to help everyone in standing against these social pressures than trying to change these pressures. Presently, marriages are a big expense in our societies and some may not be very happy with it. But we cannot forget those who are happy with these grand weddings or any other parties like that. The wiser thing to do is to know your limit and spend or not spend accordingly.
 
P.S. for Anmol

Hi Anmol,

I also wanted to tell you that I found your suggestion of sending 5 "edcuated graduate" students to anyone's low cost wedding a signaling as well. I felt that you are trying to replace the variable of wealth from a wedding equation with a new variable of educated graduate students (successful weddings being the independent variable).
Are you trying to suggest that the graduate students you know are hard core party people who can make a low cost weddings fun or are you suggesting that they are some higher status individuals whose presence can make every wedding a success?
And one more thing, I do not believe that it is only half literate people who want to spend big amounts on weddings or whatever parties they do. If that was the case then how come we have so many wedding planning agencies and PR firms flourishing in west. I do not see any correlation between education and spending money, but I do see correlation between someone's wealth and their budget for weddings and parties.

Thanks,
 
Please Help Me, Educated Ones...

Dear All,

A very interesting topic/issue. I am glad it has been raised now. I intend to benefit greatly by this discussion because the marriage of my only son is coming up in six months time and I have no money. I have tried to minimise all extra expenditure from each and every angle. Those of you who know me personally are also aware that I am very clear on one thing: NO DOWRY, in any form or manner. I have told the girls father to spend not more than 100 Rupees and that too for 'Mann'. One rupee each. There is nothing called 'Baraat' as we have decided on a common venue for the purpose of all ceremonies. However, with each passing day I realise that it is easier said than done.

May I request dear members to please help me find answers to the following questions so that I can total up my figures in an open forum.

Q 1. We have already had the ceremony called 'Ladki Rokna', where the rings were exchanged. Only my mother, myself, my wife, my only younger brother and his children, my in laws, my son and his friend went in two cars from Meerut to Ghaziabad. Total time of ceremony was three hours including lunch. Hamne Bahu ke liye ek Sari di or hamare hone wale samdhi ne ladke ke liye ek suit diya. Haan Bhai, ek fruit ka tokra jaroor le kar gaye thay. Was this OK? Could I have made it any simpler?

Q 2. Ab Bhai, mera ek hi Saala hai or vo Bhaat jaroor bharega. Jitne bhi apne bhai bandhu vo le ke aavega, I can't legislate. What should I do? I have no control on what he might give to his sister. Ek rupayaa bhi de sake se. ek lakh bhi. Ghar mere Saale sapte aavengein to Unki khatir dari bhi karni padegi.

Q 3. My sisters would come with their families for the marriage. Jeeja har bhi aavengein. Ib bhai Bahan har khaali hath te bheji nahin jaan. What should I give them?

Q 4. Chhore ke 'TEL' chadhan ki rasam bhi karni padegi. Bhai sabke chadhe se u te. Jo geet gaan aali aavein gi un te bhi kuch dena page ga ak nahin? (I hope some one is calculating the expenditure so far, or just because it is my money you aren't interested?)

Q 5. Baarat ghar te jaavegi te band baaja hoga ak nahin?

Q 6. Jo 'Baarat Ghar' ya 'Marriage Hall' ya 'Resort' hai us ko book karne ke liye bhi paisa chahiye. Gharati ar Baraati, sab ke liye ek Dinner ka intezam se. Bhai, ib mhara bada kunba se to isme mera koi dosh nahin. Sab kuchh ghata ke bhi bhai 400 log hovein se. Ke karoon? No Liquor, only food. Kitna kharcha hoga?

Q 7. How can I minimise expenditure without hurting anybody's sentiment?

Q 8. Or do I tell my son to go to a court and marry?

I shall be grateful if members can give me their considered opinion. Jo phaltu padhe likye sein, one request to them. JAT waale opinion diyo, chamar aale nahin.

Regards,

JS Malik
 
Court Marriage

Jagmohan sir, very honest suggestion....Go for court marriage and after the marriage call all ristedaars at home to give their blessings. Sudhhi-padhhari rotti [haath ki bannai rotti ,daal,sabji etc] banwa diyo arr haath jodd liyo....arr jitne pisse bachein wo sarre apni bahu ko de diyo......kimme kaam ki cheej khariddi jaangi. Baaki sir aap khudd likadd rhe so-hei sarre pawadyan mha ke. Wish you all the best.
 
crsnadar said:
Hi all,
Mentioned 3.5 Lakh is not DOWRY.

It is just some clarification of the amount anybody can spend on the marriage ceremony. It gives some idea of the family standard so as to have a match with the similar status family.
Match of similar status family prove to be more successful as compared to other. Some 19-20 is no problem.
Without spending a single rupee nobody cann't even do the court marriage.
I again say but if somebody want to spend some money in the marriage ceremony to make it memorable in the soceity, I donn't think it is a waste.[/B]so please don't be confused or misunderstood.
Bye
RAHUL NADAR

Dear Nadar Ji:
First, i am not confused about this issue. Who needs to understand "family standard"? The Bride or the Groom? And if you are convinced that the person getting married is "good quality" why do you need to judge status?
Is good status a necessary or sufficient condition for successful marriage? Regarding court marriages, i did not put any limit on expenses as long as it is small it should be okay.
"Memorable to society": Any rational person who has hard earned money should understand it would be memorable to society (for the fun you offer them) and memorable to you as well (since you would be broke after that).
I think a person who has all kinds of money (inheritance,rental income, bribes, kickbacks etc) can easily afford it rather than people who slog for it.
And it is not a bad idea to invite the income tax people to such memorable occassions if you have clear conscience. What do you think about it?

Anmol.
 
Dear Amit:
I have problems with signalling that is socially detrimental. If you are trying to tell people you class/status etc. let them judge you by the company you have...if i have 5-10 graduate students at my wedding and a few friends from jatland that is it. I need not disclose the quality of some of my relatives and what i think about them and how they have earned their money and so on and so forth.
Does presence of more people translates into successful marriage? I cant say with certainty...i think the idea of marriage is to publicise to the society that a couple have the societal sanction of cohabiting and having more poeple in these ceremonies can help that. Ok then what about having a copy of your marriage certificate framed and posted on your wall with your pictures? I think that would be a great memorabilia as well with the official seal and signature of court officer and the government stamp embossed on it (I like the lion stamp on my passport and other places). And better still post it on jatland the worldwide network with some pictures.
Last of all, please do what you like and feel comfortable with...i was just offering poeple a framework to think what is going on rather than offering a model for a marriage.
 
Dear Malik uncle:
First accept my congratulations for being a moderator. But i strongly object to your repeated use of the word "Chamar".....i think Jats would remain Jats even if there are no Chamars and our existence does not depend on reminding people that we have ridiculed these people over the ages...i think you can avoid it when expressing yourself.
Second, please take a lead by managing the least cost solution...the society needs to set this norm and elder people have greater responsiblity in doing that. Arrange decent, good quality vegetarian food. And a little bit of everything without creating other problems...i am talking about not blocking roads for a display of dancing skills, and half dozen diesal generators throwing ample smoke to make things disgusting for people on the road. Go for a Sardar style wedding...in the middle of the day, when you dont need lighting to make sure that it is the same bride you have chosen rather than a filmi mixup.
And get a registration done and displayed properly afterwards.
Best Regards,
Anmol.
 
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jagmohan said:
JAT waale opinion diyo,

Regards,

JS Malik

Jagmohan Sir,

You are our senior and have a lot of experience in life, but I would like to share my opinion on this!!

We should never think the expenses occured in our dear one's marriage is a 'show off' (that may be right in the case of Netas, Babus or Business men etc. - or the ones suggested by Ratan!).

We do need to show our 'happiness' from innerself. Khushiyan roz-roz nahin aati - dukh bin bulaya mehmaan hai!! (means, we wait for these 'happy moments' for a long time and 'problems' in life come uninvited).

Yes, we do need to see, how much we can 'afford'.

Dowry is a crime and we should stay away from this (those asking for this should be bought to the court of justice as well!). In this case, you have been presenting your sincere committment!! In our 'system', people do take loans etc. to get their daughters married (and 'those' innocents should not be held liable at all!). Jaaton mein gaadi (car) milne ki bahut chaahat hai aaj bhi!!!!!!!!

There are some more 'facts' to be known to all our community people - but, I would like to 'talk' about all those at later moments!!

Aap khushiyan zahir karne mein kami matt hone denaa!!

Regards!
 
Bhaiyyon itna dukhi hone ki kya jarurat hai. I have a suggestion. All men folk who got agonized by the plight of the father who is willing to part with 3.5 lakh rupees, have an option to stay unmarried. This will help you save the girl's father some money. And, you can live upto your principles.

Actually, I am unsure about how many people who posted on this thread actually believe in what they said. When their turns comes, they all are willing to make exceptions.

Rahi baat chamaar ki.

chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar chamaar

And by god I will say it again. In susre chamaron ne hee aaj kal humare naak mein dum de rakha hai. Inko jab tak inki asliyat nahin bataoge susre sarr pe pe chadhe rahenge.

I hate chamars. And I hate them from the bottom of my heart. If anyone has a prblem email me.
 
Col. Sahab vaise to aap jaise Prabudh vayakti ko sujhav dene ki koi jarurat nahi honi chahiye. Phir bhi aapke vichar ka samman karte hue i have some suggestions to make.

You should go for trditional marriage with a Arya Samaji Purohit to perform the ceremony.

A small Baarat accomodating your close relatives and friends. This should be finalise after discussing the issue with brides parents. Their convenience should be the importent factor for deciding the number of Baaratis.

A simple reception with as many relatives and friends as possible can be organised after marriage. This can give all invitees a chance to meet each other. Aajkal ki Bhagdod ki jindagi me yahi kuchh moke hote hein jab hum sage sambandhiyno aur mitrno se mill sakte hein.

In addition to this i fully agree with what Shailender bhai has said.

with regards


Sateypal
 
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I don't think this happens only in India or only in Jat community. In USA ask someone who recently got married and ask about price of their dimond ring and their wedding.
I am not saying that this practice is right, but we shouldn't blame Jats or indians for it.
 
HI memebers

Dear Col. Uncle U asked for suggestion which i m not sure i can contribute or not. First of all I m Agree with Shailender Bhais idea that koi kammi mat rehan diyo. Now next thing first of all look at how many marriages u have attended of ur close ones and than make a list and than i wanna say that ki agar aapne woh nahin bulaye toh appne ulahna bhee milega so be prepare for that. As u said marriage of ur only son, i wanna say ek Chorre ke byah mein ghana kharcha toh waise bhee nahin hota. Arr khane mein ghana kharcha hoya nahin kare( in this i m fully awre abt this cos my father works in same industry) so liquor appp pila nahin rahe toh kharcha already kam hogya. Baaki court marriage i dont think a solution for this.

Choree nain Byahve hai Fauji dont worry abt expense as u suggested its already minimun u r spending abbb katttii maru-maru bhee mat klareee. (dont take seriously just joking).
I really appreciate ur opinion on dowry not accepting anything in dowry is a big amount ur paying for the society.

Abhimanyu Phougat
 
Bhai Sumit

Yaar tu bhee ekadhee baar kardi keh de hai , nd baat kar dee tanne bhee. Now these all are thinking whether they go 4 marriage or not.

Abhimanyu Phougat
 
Baat Nahin Bani Bhai....

Dear Friends,

No, not at all satisfied with the response. I take it that not very many people want me to save my hard earned money!!!!

Firstly, I should clarify to Anmol Ratan that I didn't mean to degrade another human being by refering to a schedule caste person as ****** (I will not even write it if it offends another member). But let me tell you how Mayawati, a National Leader as you know, starts her speeches. She says proudly "Main Chamari Hoon, Kuwari Hoon, Tumhari Hoon", or words to that effect. On a personal note, when I was in sixth standard (1969) I offered a glass of water to the ****** who worked exclusively on our fields (as was/is the practice in villages) and then washed the glass myself. And this was done in my village and in full public view, to the astonsihment of many JATS.

Now coming back to the topic proper. I am still waiting for the calculations dear. What Dev Dahiya has suggested may not be possible, though it is the right way. The fact is that Kharcha to hoga or karna padega. Bhai ho sakta hai Sharab bhi pilani pad sakti hai. Ib mere doosre 'Fauji Bhai' aa ge toh?

All Jatlanders will be invited. Shailender Bhai, Delhi ke Jatlanders ko to aana hi padega, jaroori. Pher baat kareinge bhai. In fact I will accept no gift from any Jatlander. Choore ka byah se te Bahu ko Muhn Dikhai to deni padegi. And that would go towards funding the education of few needy children. That's a promise.

Regards,

JS Malik
 
" We have already had the ceremony called 'Ladki Rokna', where the rings were exchanged. Only my mother, myself, my wife, my only younger brother and his children, my in laws, my son and his friend went in two cars from Meerut to Ghaziabad. "

Baaki sabb to thek hai Jagmohan Sir, but ek baat bataoo. How did you manage to fit all these people in just two cars? :-D

Dont mind it. Discussion thodee gambhir hoti jaa rahi hai. I am trying to break the ice.

And yea, Mayawati saying "main kunwai hun, main tumhari hoon" is a scary situation. How many men would really be interested in having Mayawati.
 
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