Suicides in Indian Armed Forces

[chhillar]

The number of suicides by military personnel is on the rise. We have tons of Jatlanders who are from these organizations; can we please know what could be there reasons behind these unfortunate incidents? Is it just the work pressure resulting into poor mental health or is there something wrong with military as an organization itself, I mean the military's emphasis on honor, valor and courage should make suicide perhaps one of its last taboos, shouldn't it?

Rise in suicides in military is not limited to just India, look at US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan; the numbers are on the rise there too.

Above all why military would never release the results of investigations of such suicides to public?

Note: Please don't take this thread as an opportunity to put our military people on a hard-hitting spot. We are proud of them!

 

[drjatin]

Well iwill like to say it is prevelent in all fields be it militiary engineering schools or colleges it is a propblem present in human race!
In my opinion they are common in people who are at the other end of spectrum in terms of handling stress and criricism or may be genetically related!

 

[spdeshwal]

satey preshaan kar deta hai praasat nahi!

Chhillar bhai,

"Satey preshaan kar deta hai praast nahi"

Saayad issi jajbe ki kami ki vajah se kuchh log haar maan lete hein aur aatamhatya jaise dukhad raasta apna lete hein.

I believe, the incident which has provoked you to iniyiate this thread is the tragic death of Lt.Sushmita Ckakarvarti who commited suicide.
The suicide note shows that she was unable to cope with the routine life of the Army. As stated by her brother she was always uncomfortable to arrange or to be part of party culture in the Army.

This sad event has provoked the debate again that whether we should have women in Armed forces at all?Although most of the developed countries have fairly good percentage of females in their Armed forces but their presence in Indian Armed forces is neglible. Also some of the Female officers have proved their metal with examplary courage during Kargil and after.

I would request our Serving and non serving officers to comment on this.

Cheers!

 

[jagmohan]

YES, The Problem Exists...

Dear All,

The reasons are:

1. Poor Training to Young Officers and Recruits. The training is not as 'Hard' as it used to be.

2. Treating Army Service like any other job and not a 'Way of Life'. Not many join the Army because they want to. Also they anticipate an easier life.

3. Poor Leadership at all levels: Soldier to General.

4. Unable to take the hardships in stride. The communication boom has resulted in a very adverse situation in the Armed Forces, specially for those on the borders. A 'Fauji' now wants to speak to his family/wife everyday because a such facilities exist. This distracts them.

5. The women officers are treated like a ceremonial commodity by most HQs.

6. The Army was not prepared psychologically before induction of women. A MCP attitude still exists.

7. Most suicides rates are due to stress caused by military duties combined with neglect of basic leadership qualities.

8. Middle level officers (Majors to Colonels) are unable to meet the illogoical demands of Commanders in a counter insurgency scenario. That's why we have cases of fake encounters for gallantry.

9. Not easy to lead a difficult life.

Regards,

JS Malik

 

[sampuran]

Not a ladder to quick fame

I would agree with most of the points by Col Jagmohanji. In addition

Young people join the armed forces with lot of expectations. But they dont find it as well paying, no quick promotions or glory, no grteat authority or money power to influence things inside or outside.

For some like this lady officer who was Msc Chemistry, the job itself may be boring/ demeaning to their intellect.

Finally, I dont know whether there is psychological toughening and indoctrination to face the physical hardships and insecurity at one end,, .. and to drill in the spirit of Service before Self, at the other.

 

[naresh.mehta]

@ Col Malik

I pretty much agree with u sir..

Basically I am afraid to say Army is losing the Elite touch now.. The young officers who though are resepeted and admired among civilans esp the fairer section are internally suffering with this problem of low salary!

Thanks to IT boom n other private sectors , Army job doesnt hold the same stand in the society.. though ofcourse the many facilities provided and the personality of an officer is anyday far superior than that of a geeky S/w fellow..
But the bottom line is 'job satisfaction' ... If a person really enjoys walking proudly in the green smart uniform of army , he wud never be dissatisfied n cajoled by the mere cash of private sector..

I am from defence background.. many of the members are army officers , the latest being my brother ( 63 engineers) , and my family takes pride in being a part of the defence... jokingly they admit n use cliches like 'fauji ke paas kya bachta hai yaar... whiskey peete nahi wo hi bach jati hai !'
but i knw they luv being in army!

i myself were in sainik sch , chittor.. but then bcoz brother had already joined CME.. i was forced to leave sainik sch n prepare of iitjee...

The basic reason of suicide is the 'ill treatment' in the name of discipline.. many superceded n frustrated officers take false prode in demaning n spoiling the ACRs of young officers.. n the irony is that the junior cant complain out of protocol..
lot of shady stuff .. n then the creeping corruption !

God save army... and let the new generation take some interest in serving the nation in the best way !

 

[chhillar]

i myself were in sainik sch , chittor.. but then bcoz brother had already joined CME.. i was forced to leave sainik sch n prepare of iitjee...

I cousin is from the same school, Lt Col. SP Singh Malik, Mahar Reg.
I am from sainik school Kunjpura.

 

[naresh.mehta]

oh !! Great..

Good to see u sir!

LtCol Malik... well if i cud know his 'house' .. warna thoda fight hai

Bak then in their time.. which wud ve been probably ... early 80s ... the selections were like 20 a batch.. now it is 4 a batch!!! frm SSC.. though i heard recently situation is improving!

 

[sampuran]

I pretty much agree with u sir..

Basically I am afraid to say Army is losing the Elite touch now.. The young officers who though are resepeted and admired among civilans esp the fairer section are internally suffering with this problem of low salary!

Thanks to IT boom n other private sectors , Army job doesnt hold the same stand in the society.. though ofcourse the many facilities provided and the personality of an officer is anyday far superior than that of a geeky S/w fellow..
But the bottom line is 'job satisfaction' ... If a person really enjoys walking proudly in the green smart uniform of army , he wud never be dissatisfied n cajoled by the mere cash of private sector..

I am from defence background.. many of the members are army officers , the latest being my brother ( 63 engineers) , and my family takes pride in being a part of the defence... jokingly they admit n use cliches like 'fauji ke paas kya bachta hai yaar... whiskey peete nahi wo hi bach jati hai !'
but i knw they luv being in army!

i myself were in sainik sch , chittor.. but then bcoz brother had already joined CME.. i was forced to leave sainik sch n prepare of iitjee...

The basic reason of suicide is the 'ill treatment' in the name of discipline.. many superceded n frustrated officers take false prode in demaning n spoiling the ACRs of young officers.. n the irony is that the junior cant complain out of protocol..
lot of shady stuff .. n then the creeping corruption !

God save army... and let the new generation take some interest in serving the nation in the best way !

Some years back Army had launched media blitz to attract promising youngmen & women with the Ad campaign - DO YOU HAVE IT IN YOU

& OFFICER FOR FIVE YEARS AND GENTLEMAN FOR LIFE.

Seems they attract people all right, but jacked up the expectations sky high.

 

[raj2rif]

An Interesting Topic

Dear All,

An interesting topic and some good answers. Col Malik had tried to answer most of them.

The main reason as per my perception is not the atmosphere in the army itself, but society. Some suicides get blown up some go un-noticed. We had a Maj Gen dying by falling in the Sena Bhawan from some high floor. (I think it was Maj Gen A. Malik) I also had L/Nk/Ck Selvaraj committing suicide in my own unit. While I don't know the reasons for Gen Malik's suicide, I do know exactly what led to Selvaraj committing suicide. Analyze yourself:

Nov 25th I interview Selvaraj joining my unit from another Raj Rif bn, which moved to Siachen, as Selvaraj was a medical category. During the CO's interview he said that he can't lift heavy weight. My directions, report to officers mess (rather than company cook house, I sent a cook from mess to company) since we just had two officers in dining in mess while we had full quota of cooks in mess. Prepare a south indian dish when ever you can and bring it to me. Few days later, Selvaraj comes to office with a mess waiter, having prepared excellent WADA and Coffee and we all officers relish it during tea break. Selvaraj is extremely happy.
10th December he gets admitted to Military Hospital. 25th December gets discharged, Night 31st December/1st January, Selvaraj Commits Suicide.

Investigations revealed:

Selvaraj was to go home on medical ground in 1991, but had a few years service left to get the pension. His company commander did a favor to him by keeping him in the unit and sheltering him from the hard work. Selvaraj continues to serve inspite of being physically unfit to do so. Meanwhile (six years from the day he should have gone home) he continued to develop other ailments. His body pains had increased so much that he could not even sleep on the charpoy. He was sleeping on the floor (problem of command: my jat boys sharing the barracks with him never bothered to find out if he had any problem for to them he was "Madrasi")
We recovered his letters: He loved his younger brother, who wanted to go to Chennai to do his Masters degree, but was short of money. Selvaraj was trying his best to send him the money what ever he could. His brother was the only help his wife had at his native village. His brother had written some letters where the crux was that Selvaraj was unable to support his family as well as others could do. One day his brother took all the Jewellery from the home and went to Chennai to pursue his studies or whatever. He gets the letter from his wife and few days later commits suicide.
Now, the problem: What does army atmosphere had to do with this. Not all the truth comes out in most cases. I was pressured to shield one of my young officer, who stole a gold chain of his collegue during YO's course and later on faked a check of brother officer of another unit. To my surprise the CO of another unit also wanted me to sheild the officer as he was son of an army officer. I did get him court marshalled.
The problem I feel is that the actions are not taken when the problem is small. We continue moving forward leaving a lot of dust behind us. Some thing we call "Bhus pe leepna".

The training of troops and specially officers has a lot to do with this. Some times people say we don't have time to train. May be true, but do we actually train when whatever little time we have?

In my entire service, during any training I never saw any one teaching how to actually assault during attack. Every thing is there in the books, and explained beautifully by instructors at squad posts. Not many know it how to conduct on ground specially when actual bullets are flying. I am proud to say that I did teach my boys as a company commander, exactly how it is to be done. They did not like it then, but did excelled in all exercises as well as in Kargil. They were the first company to capture the objective in Kargil. If you train your troops well, I find no reason, they resorting to the cowardly acts of committing suicide. But more often than not we try to sheild the weak links in the system and are not courageous enough to take corrective actions when there is still time.

 

[sampuran]

Dear All,

An interesting topic and some good answers. Col Malik had tried to answer most of them.The main reason as per my perception is not the atmosphere in the army itself, but society.

If you train your troops well, I find no reason, they resorting to the cowardly acts of committing suicide. But more often than not we try to sheild the weak links in the system and are not courageous enough to take corrective actions when there is still time.

Dear Col Tewatiaji
I would agree with you. Only the wordings were different. This is what I had written above -

"Finally, I dont know whether there is psychological toughening and indoctrination to face the physical hardships and insecurity at one end,, .. and to drill in the spirit of Service before Self, at the other."


People say that suicide is cowardly... may be. But think of the pressure on the individual who can not see an honourable way out of his misery !

 

[raj2rif]

It is an Unaddressed Problem

Dear Sampuran Singh Ji,

Toughening of mind is certainly the issue. Taking one's life is probably is very difficult and probably the last decision one makes for if he does not survive he/she is just done.

Every organization has a training model and so do the armed forces. I would say every house has a model to train the children. While individuals may have their own weaknesses and strengths, it is the organizational problem in a group dynamics that may need to be addressed. I personally feel sheilding the weak links and just postponing the problems does not serve the purpose well. Purely it is because this reason they say "Justic delayed is justice denied". If we can listen to the affected person preferrably sympathetically, and then advise him or make him thing about the possible alternative solutions, I feel the problem can be reduced to some extent. The cases will still be occuring, but certainly we can reduce the possibility of these occurances.

 

[sampuran]

Dear Sampuran Singh Ji,

Toughening of mind is certainly the issue. Taking one's life is probably is very difficult and probably the last decision one makes for if he does not survive he/she is just done.

Every organization has a training model and so do the armed forces. I would say every house has a model to train the children. While individuals may have their own weaknesses and strengths, it is the organizational problem in a group dynamics that may need to be addressed. I personally feel sheilding the weak links and just postponing the problems does not serve the purpose well. Purely it is because this reason they say "Justic delayed is justice denied". If we can listen to the affected person preferrably sympathetically, and then advise him or make him thing about the possible alternative solutions, I feel the problem can be reduced to some extent. The cases will still be occuring, but certainly we can reduce the possibility of these occurances.

Shreemanji, 100% agreement with you.
What you said in last couple of lines - does it hold good in today's army, talking generally ? Is it that people are getting on more with their lives and careers, and the old times cohesiveness is on the wane ?

Another point is, will it be better if the fauj can release people who want to say goodbye, without asking them to pay back for the training etc ? Like in this case, the lady offircr wasn't happy about the job. She could have been sent back to her home.

 

[chhillar]

Another point is, will it be better if the fauj can release people who want to say goodbye, without asking them to pay back for the training etc ? Like in this case, the lady offircr wasn't happy about the job. She could have been sent back to her home.

excellent point brought up here!

On the side, Can we have your picture here Sampuran bhai, haven't seen you for 18 years I guess after school.

 

[raj2rif]

Another point is, will it be better if the fauj can release people who want to say goodbye, without asking them to pay back for the training etc ? Like in this case, the lady offircr wasn't happy about the job. She could have been sent back to her home.

Dear Sampuran Singh Ji,

I am not sure about the details of this particular case, however I would like to give my views on this issue. Ideally, when we don't have shortage of people willing to join army (specially in case of other ranks) then there is no point holding on to the unwilling people, in an organization where the compensation can never be enough for the task to be performed. However, each case still needs to be dealt with on merit. During my own service, I had a few cases where the soldier was absolutely unwilling to serve, but I was able to address there problem and they not only continued but also turned out to be one of the best in business. It all depends as to how the senior officer handles the problem.
Truely, army has a truncated budget and a lot to take care of. Ours is the army of volunters and thus if the officer had joined the armed forces, then she/he should atleast discuss it with people to find out the ways to help him/her while not wasting the precious money spent on her/his training.

It is a difficult question to answer. More often than not, I had seen most people take the requests of leaving the army in negative manner. If the person is explained the rules and the logic behind those rules and can motivate the person to fulfil his/ her terms of engagements or the obligation to the service and the nation, I feel, most problems can be solved.

Interestingly, when my unit was scheduled to go to high altitude, many of our soldiers got a low medical category rating from one of the doctor (airforce) posted at Jodhpur hospital. As luck could have it, the unit was slated to go for UN mission and that means all these Low Medical Category soldiers would have missed the opportunity to serve on UN mission and thus would have lost out on a lots of money. Guess what, most of them got their medical category upgraded from the same place to be fit to go with the unit to UN. I learnt that the doctor in question was doing all this for Rs 5000.00 each.
The best thing is that unit did not go to UN and instead went to High Altitude and that too in Insurgency area. All these soldiers landed up there.
The point I am trying to project is that most of us want to follow the path of least resistance. That is human nature. Most people want to avoid work if they can. Some time honesty is not one practices but a result of not getting the opportunities to become dishonest. As commanders we need to see the difference.
A lot can be written on man management, but I thing it is time to close. The problem is complex and has to be dealt with case by case as there may not be any generalized solution.

 

[sampuran]

Dear Sampuran Singh Ji,

I am not sure about the details of this particular case, however I would like to give my views on this issue. Ideally, when we don't have shortage of people willing to join army (specially in case of other ranks) then there is no point holding on to the unwilling people, in an organization where the compensation can never be enough for the task to be performed. However, each case still needs to be dealt with on merit. During my own service, I had a few cases where the soldier was absolutely unwilling to serve, but I was able to address there problem and they not only continued but also turned out to be one of the best in business. It all depends as to how the senior officer handles the problem.
Truely, army has a truncated budget and a lot to take care of. Ours is the army of volunters and thus if the officer had joined the armed forces, then she/he should atleast discuss it with people to find out the ways to help him/her while not wasting the precious money spent on her/his training.

It is a difficult question to answer. More often than not, I had seen most people take the requests of leaving the army in negative manner. If the person is explained the rules and the logic behind those rules and can motivate the person to fulfil his/ her terms of engagements or the obligation to the service and the nation, I feel, most problems can be solved.

Interestingly, when my unit was scheduled to go to high altitude, many of our soldiers got a low medical category rating from one of the doctor (airforce) posted at Jodhpur hospital. As luck could have it, the unit was slated to go for UN mission and that means all these Low Medical Category soldiers would have missed the opportunity to serve on UN mission and thus would have lost out on a lots of money. Guess what, most of them got their medical category upgraded from the same place to be fit to go with the unit to UN. I learnt that the doctor in question was doing all this for Rs 5000.00 each.
The best thing is that unit did not go to UN and instead went to High Altitude and that too in Insurgency area. All these soldiers landed up there.
The point I am trying to project is that most of us want to follow the path of least resistance. That is human nature. Most people want to avoid work if they can. Some time honesty is not one practices but a result of not getting the opportunities to become dishonest. As commanders we need to see the difference.
A lot can be written on man management, but I thing it is time to close. The problem is complex and has to be dealt with case by case as there may not be any generalized solution.

Shreemanji
I wonder why many other COS or somemore superior people fail to follow simple rules of man management and motivation.
That story form your unit is interesting. It was all luck (or ill-luck) for the lazy ones!
But there are some bigger issue which the news wallahs dont understand because thats not sensational.

In 1947 army would have been a good career - pay and pension for life. pucca house with running water supply, well planned cantonments and other aminities. But today any established company provides you that. Or they give you enough money so that you can afford. Whereas the standards of these facilities has remain same in the fauj.
Then why should somebody join the fauj ?

Some people do for thrill or other motives than just job security. When they dont get that thrill because of whatever reason, they want to quit. In civil you can give a week or twos notice. Not same in fauj . Then fraustration must be even more. Otherwise, why should be a severe shortage of officers in fauj.. and many more ready to leave ?

Man mangement aside, isnt something basically wrong that people are not happy staying in the fauj ?

 

[raj2rif]

Management

Shreemanji
I wonder why many other COS or somemore superior people fail to follow simple rules of man management and motivation.
That story form your unit is interesting. It was all luck (or ill-luck) for the lazy ones!
But there are some bigger issue which the news wallahs dont understand because thats not sensational.

In 1947 army would have been a good career - pay and pension for life. pucca house with running water supply, well planned cantonments and other aminities. But today any established company provides you that. Or they give you enough money so that you can afford. Whereas the standards of these facilities has remain same in the fauj.
Then why should somebody join the fauj ?

Dear Sampuran Singh Ji,
I think army is still a good career. Off course there are flashy careers available outside. I never wanted to become an army officer. But that was the first job I got and I took it after discussing with my elder brothers who had tried several times to get commission in Army but failed in SSB. I took that decision and did not like the job for first two three years. Not for any other reasons, but for the reason, that the picture looked too different from outside and reality turned out to be different. My village back ground was a big handicap apart from me not having any God Father. However I was lucky to have few excellent seniors who not only help me become a good officer but also helped me to become a good human being. Today, I don't regret having joined army. In fact I keep telling my children that given a choice in next life, I would still like to become part of the same organization. Some people join it for fame (I would say not the thrill) and some like me join it for getting food at home and use it to get to the fame in the process. The choices are wide open. One has to just make a decision. Regarding money. I have already said that a soldier can never be paid enough for the work he / she does. Unfortunately, many military officers, civilian officers dealing with military affairs and in some cases soldiers themselves indulge in stealing and cheating their own brother soldiers. That is unfortunate.

Some people do for thrill or other motives than just job security. When they dont get that thrill because of whatever reason, they want to quit. In civil you can give a week or twos notice. Not same in fauj . Then fraustration must be even more. Otherwise, why should be a severe shortage of officers in fauj.. and many more ready to leave ?

Yes there is an acute shortage of officers. The army itself had tried to solve that problem by introducing the Regimental Commission ( I personally had been against it for various reasons and can give detailed opinion separately on that issue). More often than not the leaders/Sr. Officers went in for a temporary solution. We do have a budget, we do have a commitment and we do have the scarece resources in terms of man and material. But I don't think the problem is too difficult to solve. The problem is GREED of people in the chain, at every level.
I was told by one of my collegue that if you can't correct the system, then join it. That is what most people end up doing. However while the course of no resistance may give them some physical comforts and monetory gains, they lose out heavily on their identity. They also become party to ruin the prospects of their own future generations.

Man mangement aside, isnt something basically wrong that people are not happy staying in the fauj ?

I think both man and material managements are the issue in any organization to keep the team happy.

 

[chhillar]

Loads of good information Tawathia saab, Sampuran bhai. I am glad I started this thread. Wonder why other fauji bhai are not writting anything, is it against the law or something?

 

[sampuran]

Time for a joke

Tewathiaji, Thanks for the patient replies.
I guess gone are the days of - Choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong.

Bhai Chiller there was an old fauji in neighbourhood. He would say

Fauj mein mauj hai, free ration roz hai.
Jinda raho tension, mar jao pension !

 

[raj2rif]

Tewathiaji, Thanks for the patient replies.
I guess gone are the days of - Choose the harder right instead of the easier wrong.

Bhai Chiller there was an old fauji in neighbourhood. He would say

Fauj mein mauj hai, free ration roz hai.
Jinda raho tension, mar jao pension !

Dear Sampuran Singh Ji,

Thanks a lot.

A good Joke. Add to it.

Fauj Mein

Hukam Todo mat
Phali Phodo mat
Aur Khana Chodo mat.