The dilemma of ABCD (American-Born Confused Desi)

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dndeswal

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(This post is in Devanagari script. If there is difficulty in reading the text, there is need to install ‘Mangal’ font)

"ए-बी-सी-डी" का चक्रव्यूह

बात बहुत पुरानी नहीं, केवल कुछ सौ साल पहले की है । दुनियां एशिया, यूरोप और अफ्रीका तक ही सिमटी हुई थी । बाद में तीन विशाल महाद्वीप मिल गए जो समुद्र के कारण शेष भाग से कटे हुए थे - उत्तर अमरीका, दक्षिण अमरीका और आस्ट्रेलिया-न्यूजीलैंड । यूरोपीय साम्राज्य पूरी दुनियां में फैला - अफ्रीका, भारत आदि में भी । और उन तीन महाद्वीपों पर भी उनका कब्जा हो गया । अगर हम भारतीयों के पास उस समय नौसेना और समुद्री शक्ति होती तो आज हम भी आधी दुनियां पर राज कर रहे होते । पर बाद में हमारे लोग भी बाहर गए और आज भी जा रहे हैं, पहले खेतिहर मजदूर बनकर जाते थे और आजकल कुशल कारीगर (Professionals) बनकर जा रहे हैं ।

यहां बात उन भारतीयों की हो रही है जो अमेरिका में बसे हुए हैं । काफी संशय, असमंजस, ऊहापोह में जी रहे है - "क्या करूं, क्या न करूं" वाली हालत में । उन्होंने अपना नाम खुद ही रख लिया है - "ABCD" यानी "American Born Confused Desi". यहां रहें या भारत वापस चले जायें ? बच्चों को कहां पढ़ायें - यहां या भारत में ? अपने पैसे को कहां 'इन्वेस्ट' करें ? अमरीकन डालर अच्छा लगता है पर वहां की “कल्चर” रास नहीं आती - यानी मीठा-मीठा गप-गप और कड़वा-कड़वा थू ! वहां के स्कूलों में पढ़कर बच्चे “बिगड़ रहे हैं” । एक साहब को मैं जानता हूं जो अपने दो बच्चों को भारत के एक ‘इंग्लिश स्कूल’ में पढाते हैं । उनके मां-बाप ने पूछा - बेटा, अमरीका में क्या इंग्लिश स्कूल नहीं होते या वहां की अंग्रेजी अच्छी नहीं है ? फिर वहां की यूनिवर्सिटी क्यूं अच्छी मानी जाती है ?

दरअसल बात पढ़ाई या कल्चर की नहीं है । अधिकतर अमेरिकन स्कूलों में शिक्षा बिल्कुल मुफ्त दी जाती है - लंच, ट्रान्सपोर्ट आदि भी फ्री है - जबकि भारत के प्राइवेट स्कूल लूटने में लगे हैं । पर ABCD को इसी में फायदा लगता है कि बच्चे भारत में पढ़ें। मां-बाप दोनों नौकरी या व्यवसाय करते हैं - फिर घर पर बच्चों को कौन संभाले ? बहुत से तो भारत से अपने मां-बाप या किसी बड़े-बूढ़े नजदीकी रिश्तेदार को बुला लेते हैं, पर वे जल्दी ही बोर हो जाते हैं और भारत वापस आ जाते हैं । इसकी झलक आप फिल्म “परदेस” में देख सकते हैं । कोई ‘बेबी-सिटर’ या नौकर-चाकर रखना बहुत महंगा सौदा है । इसलिए एक शार्ट-कट ढूंढ़ लिया - बच्चों को भारत में रिश्तेदारों के पास छोड़ो या किसी बोर्डिंग स्कूल में दाखिल करवा दो, यहां डालर कमाते रहो और कुछ खर्चा भारत भेजते रहो।

लड़का बड़ा होने पर शादी की चिन्ता - दूल्हन 'इंडिया' से लायें या यहीं जुगाड़ कर लें ? और अगर लड़की हुई तो और भी चिन्ता – भारत में तो वह वापस आने से रही और भारत में पढ़ा-लिखा और पला हुआ लड़का उसको पसंद ही नहीं आयेगा और अमेरिका में कोई “सूटेबल मैच” मिलेगा नहीं । पिछले दिनों मैने जाटलैंड मैट्रिमोनियल में एक ‘एड’ देखी जो अभी गायब हो चुकी है - "Wanted a Jat boy raised in USA". जी चाहा लिख दूं –“क्यूं, देसी पढ़े-लिखे छोरे के थारै बुड़के मारैं सैं ?”

न्यू-यार्क में रहने वाले एक ग्रीन कार्ड वाले सरदार जी को कई साल बाद भारत आने की सूझी, टिकट वगैरा बुक करा लिया और पहुंच गए JFK एयरपोर्ट । वहां जब पासपोर्ट दिखाया तो पता चला कि उसकी अवधि काफी पहले ही समाप्त हो चुकी है । झुंझलाते हुए वापस आए और अगले दिन पहुंच गए भारतीय कोंसुलेट । वहां पासपोर्ट जमा करवाया तो उनको चार दिन बाद आने को कहा गया । बस हो गए गर्म - आज ही इसको ‘रिन्यू’ करने में आपको क्या तकलीफ है ? फिर शाम को उन्होंने मुझे फोन किया कि मेरी मदद करो और कांसुलेट में किसी को कह कर मेरा पासपोर्ट जल्दी बनवा दो । जब मैने वहां अपने दोस्त से बात की तो उसने बताया कि यह तो रोज का तमाशा है, आप क्यूं फिक्र करते हैं - अगर किसी का पासपोर्ट समाप्त हुए सालों हो जायें तो गलती किसकी है ? अपने देसी आदमी अमरीकन वीजा के लिए महीनों तक और ग्रीन कार्ड के लिए सालों तक लाइन में लगने को तैयार हैं, वहां चूं भी नहीं करते, पर हम अगर उनके पासपोर्ट वगैरा पर दो-चार दिन का टाइम ले लें तो आसमान सिर पर उठा लेते हैं । अमरीकन एक वीजा के सैंकड़ों डालर वसूल कर लें तो खुशी-खुशी दे देते हैं पर भारत सरकार थोड़ी सी पासपोर्ट फीस बढ़ाती है तो हाय-तोबा मचाते हैं ।

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ABCD - Part-II

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पंजाब का एक नौजवान मिला जो वाशिंगटन और वर्जीनिया में टैक्सी का धंधा करता है । कहने लगा कि साहब मैं तो फंस गया हूं, जी करता है कि भारत भाग जाऊं । पांच साल पहले सोचा कि बहुत पैसे कमा लिये, अब भारत में जाकर कुछ काम धंधा करेंगे - पर जब वहां गया तो पाया कि जमीनों और हर चीज के दाम काफी बढ़ चुके थे । मैं फिर वापिस आ गया कि थोड़े पैसे और कमा लें, फिर चलते हैं - पर पिछले साल जब मैं वहां गया तो देखा कि कीमतें तो फिर कई गुना हो चुकी हैं और मेरी बचत तो उसके मुकाबले कुछ भी नहीं है । और मैं फिर वापिस आ गया - अब तो मैं फंस गया हूं साहब, क्या करूं, रात-दिन कमाते रहो और इन गोरों को टैक्स देकर इनका खजाना भरते रहो ।

न्यू-यार्क में रहने वाले एक गुजराती व्यापारी की 22 साल की लड़की अपनी क्लास के लड़के को दिल दे बैठी और मां बाप से कहने लगी कि शादी करूंगी तो इसी से । मां-बाप को पता चला कि वह लड़का तो मुसलमान है और लगे उसे डांटने - लड़की कहने लगी कि क्या हुआ - शाहरुख खान, सलमान खान क्या मुसलमान नहीं हैं, हिन्दू हीरोइन उनके साथ काम नहीं करती फिल्मों में ? मां-बाप बेचारे मुश्किल में पड़ गए । अगर बच्ची से जोर-जबर्दस्ती की और उसने अगर पुलिस में फोन कर दिया तो खाओ हवालात की हवा । कई और लोगों को घर में बुलाया जिन्होंने लड़की को समझाया, तब जाकर वह मानी ।

वर्ग संघर्ष हर समाज में चलता रहता है । यह सोचना मूर्खता है कि पश्चिमी समाज में जाति-पाति नहीं है । अगर कोई गोरी चमड़ी वाली महिला किसी एशियन या अफ्रीकन से शादी कर लेती है तो उन गोरों का समाज उसे एक तरह से तिलांजलि दे देता है और उसे अलग-थलग कर देता है, बेशक कानूनन उसे कोई कुछ नहीं कहता । यही हाल अमेरिकन नागरिकता का है । भारत का कानून नागरिकों में भेद नहीं करता, पर अमरीकन नागरिकता की श्रेणी (category) बनी हुई हैं - सफेद यूरोपियन मूल वाले, ब्लैक अफ्रीकन, हिस्पैनिक, एशियन वगैरा वगैरा - "अमेरिकन इंडियन" और "इंडियन अमेरिकन", पता नहीं और क्या-क्या । गोरे लोगों को यह कभी रास नहीं आता कि काले अफ्रीकन या एशियन लोग ऊंचे पदों पर पहुंच जायें । सेना, सिविल सर्विस, पुलिस आदि में मलाईदार ओहदों पर गोरे ही विराजमान हैं । अफ्रीकन मूल के राष्ट्रपति बने मार्टिन लूथर किंग को गोली मार दी गई थी । हम चर्चा करते हैं कि भारतीय मूल का कोई आदमी अमरीका का राष्ट्रपति बनेगा, पर मुझे तो ऐसा नहीं लगता कि गोरे अमरीकन ऐसा होना बर्दाश्त करेंगे । अगर गोरों के मोहल्ले में कोई एशियन या काला मकान खरीद कर रहने लग जाये तो पड़ौस वाले गोरे उसका जीना हराम कर देते हैं और आखिरकार उसको वहां से भागना ही पड़ता है । बाकी कसर बिन-लादेन ने पूरी कर दी - गोरे अमरीकनों को तो पगड़ी वाले सिख और कुर्ता-पाजामा या धोती पहनने वाले देसी लोग भी लादेन के ग्रुप के लगते हैं । यही है apartheid का एक रूप ।

सूरीनाम, मारीशस, फिजी आदि देशों में तो कुछ भारतीय संस्कृति फैली पर बाकी जगह पर हमारी दाल नहीं गली । जहां पर भी भारतीयों ने अपने पैर जमाये, दूसरी जातियों ने उनको उखाड़ फेंका । आज से ठीक पैंतीस साल पहले (1972 में) युगांडा के तानाशाह ईदी अमीन ने तकरीबन सभी भारतीयों को वहां से निकाल भगाया, उनकी सारी धन-संपत्ति जब्त कर ली । बाद में फिजी में भी कुछ ऐसा ही हुआ - महेन्द्र चौधरी का शासनाध्यक्ष बनना वहां की दूसरी जातियों को न भाया । अमरीका में भी कुछ ऐसा ही हो रहा है - उनको जबर्दस्ती निकाला तो नहीं जा रहा, पर उनको लूटा खूब जा रहा है । वीजा की फीस काफी बढ़ा दी गई, कुछ दिन पहले ही ग्रीन-कार्ड की फीस तकरीबन एक हजार डालर कर दी गई । बेचारे रात दिन मेहनत करके कुछ बचाते हैं और गोरे लोग कुछ भी नया कानून बनाकर उन की बचत को चट कर जाते हैं । अभिमन्यु की तरह एक चक्रव्यूह में फंस गए हैं - प्रवेश तो कर गए पर बाहर जाने का रास्ता नहीं सूझ रहा ।

अमरीका में बैठे मेरे दोस्त कहीं यह पढ़कर खफ़ा न हो जायें, डरता हूं - और इस पोस्ट को यहीं खत्म करता हूँ, बाकी बाद में । फिलहाल जाट भाईयों को राम-राम और बाकियों को 'बाई-बाई' ।
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...okay alright, that goes for the American BORN Confused Desi's (ABCD's)... so what ends up happening to the Desi ones not BORN there???...(ah haan, I see some more devanagari script coming there...........;))
 
Deshwalji,

With due respect to your experience as a senior Foreign Service official, I disagree with your analysis almost completely. I have to write in English because it will take me too much time to write in Hindi.

First of all, this analysis is not relevant to American born Desis. I am sure you know that the second generation Indians have done exeedingly well in North America. I am a 1965 graduate from IIT Bombay and my classmates interact through Yahoo group, and in fact, we prepared a 40th Anniversary Year Book. I know that all (absolutely all) of the children of my classmates are successful professionals. It is known that Asian students (both Orientals and Indians) dominate the academic landscape in North America.

Your analysis is applicable to a group of Indians who came to North America with false expectations and have not been able to get into their chosen professions. Few years ago I had written a post on Jatland "Life's Decisions: Dreams and Realities," explaining the situation.

On specific issues, let us take one by one. When husband and wife are both working, life is tough anywhere, but I can say it is lot tougher in India. In North America, there are better facilities to deal with this situation.

The problem of children's marriage is also a challenge whether you are in India or North America. But, again, there is lot more transparency in American society as compared to India. The example of a Gujerati girl trying to marry a Muslim is a rarity although we all know Mira Nair (the famous Indian Film maker) is happily married to a Muslim Professor in Columbia University in New York.

I agree with you about the example of the fellow with expired passport misbehaving with Cosulate officials. But, let us face it, the man had to be a total idiot because he should have known that legally he could have been thrown out of USA, because to keep the Green Card one needs a valid passport. However, this kind of bad behaviour usually comes with the frustration of not doing well in America for some Indians.

dndeswal said:
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पंजाब का एक नौजवान मिला जो वाशिंगटन और वर्जीनिया में टैक्सी का धंधा करता है । कहने लगा कि साहब मैं तो फंस गया हूं, जी करता है कि भारत भाग जाऊं । पांच साल पहले सोचा कि बहुत पैसे कमा लिये, अब भारत में जाकर कुछ काम धंधा करेंगे - पर जब वहां गया तो पाया कि जमीनों और हर चीज के दाम काफी बढ़ चुके थे । मैं फिर वापिस आ गया कि थोड़े पैसे और कमा लें, फिर चलते हैं - पर पिछले साल जब मैं वहां गया तो देखा कि कीमतें तो फिर कई गुना हो चुकी हैं और मेरी बचत तो उसके मुकाबले कुछ भी नहीं है । और मैं फिर वापिस आ गया - अब तो मैं फंस गया हूं साहब, क्या करूं, रात-दिन कमाते रहो और इन गोरों को टैक्स देकर इनका खजाना भरते रहो ।

I know lot of people of the kind you describe in the example above. In the 1980s I was a leading organizer for the Liberal Party in the Province of Alberta in Canada and used to listen to lot of such frustrations. Most of these people came here with false expectations and could not get their credentials recognized. I have no sympathies for them. In 1978, I tried to help a Jat with Law Degree from India. I managed to get his transcripts evaluated favourably and he was asked to take (and pass) just 4 courses at the University of Alberta Law School to get his credentials recognized. He could not even do that and spent his life as a Janitor. But, one can not blame the North American society for such situations.

न्यू-यार्क में रहने वाले एक गुजराती व्यापारी की 22 साल की लड़की अपनी क्लास के लड़के को दिल दे बैठी और मां बाप से कहने लगी कि शादी करूंगी तो इसी से । मां-बाप को पता चला कि वह लड़का तो मुसलमान है और लगे उसे डांटने - लड़की कहने लगी कि क्या हुआ - शाहरुख खान, सलमान खान क्या मुसलमान नहीं हैं, हिन्दू हीरोइन उनके साथ काम नहीं करती फिल्मों में ? मां-बाप बेचारे मुश्किल में पड़ गए । अगर बच्ची से जोर-जबर्दस्ती की और उसने अगर पुलिस में फोन कर दिया तो खाओ हवालात की हवा । कई और लोगों को घर में बुलाया जिन्होंने लड़की को समझाया, तब जाकर वह मानी ।

वर्ग संघर्ष हर समाज में चलता रहता है । यह सोचना मूर्खता है कि पश्चिमी समाज में जाति-पाति नहीं है । अगर कोई गोरी चमड़ी वाली महिला किसी एशियन या अफ्रीकन से शादी कर लेती है तो उन गोरों का समाज उसे एक तरह से तिलांजलि दे देता है और उसे अलग-थलग कर देता है, बेशक कानूनन उसे कोई कुछ नहीं कहता ।

This is old news. Lot of Indian boys and girls are married to whites and I have not seen a single situation where there is resistance from the society. In fact, now a days, there is a trend in North America where successful professionals marry successful professionals (power couples) without any regard to their racial background.

यही हाल अमेरिकन नागरिकता का है । भारत का कानून नागरिकों में भेद नहीं करता, पर अमरीकन नागरिकता की श्रेणी (category) बनी हुई हैं - सफेद यूरोपियन मूल वाले, ब्लैक अफ्रीकन, हिस्पैनिक, एशियन वगैरा वगैरा - "अमेरिकन इंडियन" और "इंडियन अमेरिकन", पता नहीं और क्या-क्या । गोरे लोगों को यह कभी रास नहीं आता कि काले अफ्रीकन या एशियन लोग ऊंचे पदों पर पहुंच जायें । सेना, सिविल सर्विस, पुलिस आदि में मलाईदार ओहदों पर गोरे ही विराजमान हैं । अफ्रीकन मूल के राष्ट्रपति बने मार्टिन लूथर किंग को गोली मार दी गई थी । हम चर्चा करते हैं कि भारतीय मूल का कोई आदमी अमरीका का राष्ट्रपति बनेगा, पर मुझे तो ऐसा नहीं लगता कि गोरे अमरीकन ऐसा होना बर्दाश्त करेंगे ।

It is unlikely that an Indian will become President of USA in the near future, but the generalization is totally inaccurate. We live in Canada close to the USA border, and we are long time friends of the family of Minnesota State Senator Satveer Chaudhary, and I have personally campaigned for Satveer from door to door in his constituency. He has been wining elections since 1996 in an area that is 95% white. Can you imagine a Jat winning an election in area that is 95% Brahmin or 95% Rajput etc.? I have been President and Chief Grievance Officer for my university faculty union for the last 15 years, and every year I try to step down and my White colleagues force me to continue. I do not think I could do that in India with Brahmin dominated faculty.

अगर गोरों के मोहल्ले में कोई एशियन या काला मकान खरीद कर रहने लग जाये तो पड़ौस वाले गोरे उसका जीना हराम कर देते हैं और आखिरकार उसको वहां से भागना ही पड़ता है ।

This is also very outdated fact. These days most Indian professionals live in the best neigherhoods. Our White neighbors would rather have us as their neighbors than some lower class Whites. Yes, a new Caste system is taking shape in America, and it is based on Income not on race.

बाकी कसर बिन-लादेन ने पूरी कर दी - गोरे अमरीकनों को तो पगड़ी वाले सिख और कुर्ता-पाजामा या धोती पहनने वाले देसी लोग भी लादेन के ग्रुप के लगते हैं । यही है apartheid का एक रूप ।

सूरीनाम, मारीशस, फिजी आदि देशों में तो कुछ भारतीय संस्कृति फैली पर बाकी जगह पर हमारी दाल नहीं गली । जहां पर भी भारतीयों ने अपने पैर जमाये, दूसरी जातियों ने उनको उखाड़ फेंका । आज से ठीक पैंतीस साल पहले (1972 में) युगांडा के तानाशाह ईदी अमीन ने तकरीबन सभी भारतीयों को वहां से निकाल भगाया, उनकी सारी धन-संपत्ति जब्त कर ली । बाद में फिजी में भी कुछ ऐसा ही हुआ - महेन्द्र चौधरी का शासनाध्यक्ष बनना वहां की दूसरी जातियों को न भाया । अमरीका में भी कुछ ऐसा ही हो रहा है - उनको जबर्दस्ती निकाला तो नहीं जा रहा, पर उनको लूटा खूब जा रहा है । वीजा की फीस काफी बढ़ा दी गई, कुछ दिन पहले ही ग्रीन-कार्ड की फीस तकरीबन एक हजार डालर कर दी गई । बेचारे रात दिन मेहनत करके कुछ बचाते हैं और गोरे लोग कुछ भी नया कानून बनाकर उन की बचत को चट कर जाते हैं । अभिमन्यु की तरह एक चक्रव्यूह में फंस गए हैं - प्रवेश तो कर गए पर बाहर जाने का रास्ता नहीं सूझ रहा ।

अमरीका में बैठे मेरे दोस्त कहीं यह पढ़कर खफ़ा न हो जायें, डरता हूं - और इस पोस्ट को यहीं खत्म करता हूँ, बाकी बाद में । फिलहाल जाट भाईयों को राम-राम और बाकियों को 'बाई-बाई' ।
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At the same I want to reiterate what I had written in my post on Jatland a while ago that if you are academically smart, hard working, and honest, you are better off in North America because the rules of the game are reasonably fair here. On the other hand, if you have political connections, and you want to get ahead without much effort, you are better off in India.
 
Birbal ji and DND ji,
main bahut confuse ho gaya hu app logon ki baat se,...
abt me ...
meri umar 24 saal hai.main india me acchi jagha job ker raha hu domain bhi achha hai india ke hisab se salary bhi acchi hai. per $ ki chamak bahut acchi lagti hai ankon ko or abhi main US yaa canada ki try kerna chata hu.

DND ji ki batton se lagata hai ki main galti kerne jaa raha hu.or Birbal ji apki baaton se lagta hai ki isme koi galti nahi hai ...

app senior log hain kuch salha do muje kya kerna chaiye ....
 
vivekdh said:
Birbal ji and DND ji,
main bahut confuse ho gaya hu app logon ki baat se,...
abt me ...
meri umar 24 saal hai.main india me acchi jagha job ker raha hu domain bhi achha hai india ke hisab se salary bhi acchi hai. per $ ki chamak bahut acchi lagti hai ankon ko or abhi main US yaa canada ki try kerna chata hu.

DND ji ki batton se lagata hai ki main galti kerne jaa raha hu.or Birbal ji apki baaton se lagta hai ki isme koi galti nahi hai ...

app senior log hain kuch salha do muje kya kerna chaiye ....
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Vivek,

If money is your only motive, I think you are better off in India. The Indian economy is growing at 8-9% as compared to North American economy growing at 2-3% annually. So, if you are in a decent position right now, hopefully, it should only improve.

However, it appears to me that you missed my point completely. All I am trying to say that one should think of coming to America only if one is capable of competing strictly on the basis of merit. Lot of people ruin their lives thinking that it will be easy to make it in America. It is not easy, but you can expect reasonable degree of fairness. The Indian community is on the average enjoying the highest per capit income in USA, but as you know averages do not tell the whole story. There are tens of thousands of educated Indians struggling to meet ends, but as I said they should not have come in the first place.
 
birbal said:
Deshwalji,

It is known that Asian students (both Orientals and Indians) dominate the academic landscape in North America.

Your analysis is applicable to a group of Indians who came to North America with false expectations and have not been able to get into their chosen professions.

On specific issues, let us take one by one. When husband and wife are both working, life is tough anywhere, but I can say it is lot tougher in India. In North America, there are better facilities to deal with this situation.

The problem of children's marriage is also a challenge whether you are in India or North America. But, again, there is lot more transparency in American society as compared to India. The example of a Gujerati girl trying to marry a Muslim is a rarity.

I agree with you about the example of the fellow with expired passport misbehaving with Cosulate officials. But, let us face it, the man had to be a total idiot because he should have known that legally he could have been thrown out of USA, because to keep the Green Card one needs a valid passport. However, this kind of bad behaviour usually comes with the frustration of not doing well in America for some Indians.

At the same I want to reiterate what I had written in my post on Jatland a while ago that if you are academically smart, hard working, and honest, you are better off in North America because the rules of the game are reasonably fair here. On the other hand, if you have political connections, and you want to get ahead without much effort, you are better off in India.
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...Very....very well articulated! :)
Thumbs up to a very persuasive counter argument that couldn't have been worded better!
 
Hard work...

..."may" pay off in any corner of the world, india included, but it has to be mixed with smart mind. If hard work alone makes you rich then all the chamars and jats in india and mexican in america would be rich.

Let me tell you all, those who are stinkingly rich are not because they are just hard workers. They are rich because they are stinkingly clever.

Whites is a different race and in most part a good race (just observe) but the indian "baniyas" are making them good "chutias" and milking them quite well. Although america itself is one big baniya---money is sole purpose.

I wouldn't be surprized if one day indians controlling the american financial system outpacing the jews.

Anyway---what was the topic? American Born (Chinese?) Confused Something?

An "indian" blood can't be confused that easily my friend. Sometimes some do weird things due to inferiority complex.
 
So called ABCD's I know of in UK, know what they want and are doing very well.

Be it Media,Politics, Law, Sports, Academics etc to give you an example, Gurinder Chadha, Monty Panesar, Vikram Solanki, Lord Dholkia, Keith Vaz and the list is endless.

Check out the rich list of Britain and you will find many asians names in there.

I think Dayanand ji needs to do some more reserch in this subject.:)
 
With due regards to both Mr DND ji and Birbal ji, There is merit in both the arguements.While Birbal ji is advocating the cause of successful handfuls,DND ji has tried to narrate the plight of not so fortunates.To me both thoughts are good enough to sum up the plight in general.


Regards!
 
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DNDji..the story is not of ABCD but of IBCD (India Born Confused Desi)..These are the folks who come to US or any foreign country for earning that extra dollar and are in perennial dilemma of when to go back to own country. I am one of those too ;) though I am here for just about 3 yrs. now. US, for whatever it is worth of, with all its good infrastructure, clean roads, good people still can't beat the effervescence and vibrance of India and its people. Most of professional desis here keep on discussing, whether US is better or India and the buck stops mostly at dollars. With consistent decline of dollar and growing economy of India, it may not be too far that people go back to India for good. There have been news recently where it said that >60% of NRIs are back in India. The main reason for being in India is family, friends and the raunak and chahal-pahal of indian streets. Apart from some major cities viz. New York, San Francisco, Chicago, LA etc. most of the US seems very bland..hardly would you see people out on the streets, everywhere there are just cars running as if in a race.

Though, I wish that we Indians learn the good things of US and European countries viz. Civic Sense, care of public property, following rules and a wish to improve own country not just individual homes.

As for American Born desis, I believe they are better off as they get born n brought up here and get accustomed to lifestyle of here.
 
Bull Sh?t

No indian who came to america wants to go back, few might have gone back due to their bad circumstances and might be putting up a brave face of the situation.

Indians are the most abusive users of H1-B.

Forget america, indians in africa didn't and don't wan to go back to India.

Indians (although I'm by birth but being a Jat I never could accept the indian system while I grew up in india; always revolted againts that stupid system) are one of most "hypos" of the world.

When in america every indian is son of a king in india with uncounted number of servants and when back in india everyoone drove a ferrari in america.

Just feel good that ameirca needs IT labour and indians sweat shops are providing that and few "baniays are benefiting from it".
 
pnauhwar21 said:
DNDji..whether US is better or India and the buck stops mostly at dollars. With consistent decline of dollar and growing economy of India, it may not be too far that people go back to India for good. There have been news recently where it said that >60% of NRIs are back in India. ......., everywhere there are just cars running as if in a race.
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WOW!!!... more than 60%??? ;)
As to the cars, and rush, and race hope you have recently visited Bombay or Delhi (or some of the other Metros).........
 
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I never imagined that this thread of mine in "Time Pass" forum would attract so much attention. I agree with Dr. Birbal that US is still the best attractive location for hard working class while those who want to make an easy buck through "connections" are better off in India. Earlier, Sikhs and Punjabis dominated amongst Indian NRIs in the US, now, Jat brothers are also in sizeable number and most of them, except a few, do not fall in this "confused" category - hence, I have not quoted any example of Jat families facing this kind of dilemma. Nevertheless, this "ABCD" topic happens to be the favourite topic for gossips/ get-togethers amongst US based NRIs themselves and this abbreviation is their own creation !

More inputs... without prejudice please !
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Yeah, this is just such a wide ranged topic with so many aspects, phelu's and under-currents that there is no one single, general, sure-shot scenario or mantra that quantifies a typical condition of people or families living anywhere in this world!

It is like every man (family) for himself (themselves)...

Just like one can pretty much see the whole wide rainbow spectrum of range of families in India (with no one single thumb rule of generalization), so it is with the Desi's in America (or UK, Europe elsewhere) for that matter!.............

Also guys; Who said raising a family, or even self surviving in this modern world (anywhere; home or abroad) was a piece of cake anyways!?! ;)
 
Wow! DND sir, reading your post was like opening an old trunk in the attic as a gush of musty odor flashes a sepia mosaic throuh your mind.

I stopped keeping count of the number of years I have been around. I dont like telling people how long I have been in America. When I tell someone from India that I have been here for "so many number" of years, his opinion is that how could I be so desi even after living here for so many years. When I tell an American that I have been here for "so many number" of years, he or she cannot believe it because I hardly seem or sound like an immigrant. Due to contrasting situation, I just tell people that I prefer not to disclose how long I have been here. This attitude of mine concludes all related discussion.

But, after reading this thread, for the first time I felt like beingf introspective and rethinking my purpose for coming to America. Honestly, I came to America in search of prosperity. Its not that circumstances were wretched back home, but it is a salient human desire to seek even more prosperity.

Now, If I think why I came to America, another question comes up in my mind. Why do I want to be in America? I think I have been smitten by the American history, culture and values. I admire how this country was built, and how mistakes were committed but were fixed by successive generations of American. I like the American culture of individualism. The reason America is the land of opportunities is because of its individualistic socieites. In a collective/communist society, an above-average person is forced to tow the burden of below-average people. This reduces the incentive for a person to explore his or her fullest potential. But, in America, you as an Individual can have his or her cake and eat it too. Although with time, taxes and other government programs have attempted to redistribute a person's hard-earned money, America still does not redistribute wealth to the extent it happens in other countries. Let me mind you that American culture is not what comes out of Hollywood. Even though this is a very young country, it has developed its own culture that was based on the tenets of the western civiliazation and was refined over time. Americans have excelled in the areas of thought and philosophy. The American model has been replicated in numerous other countries around the world with tremendous success. The success of Indian and Chinese economies is driven by an American model that promote lesser government intervention in commerce and more individual freedom to exercise ones entrepreneurial capabilities.

It is not that I do not admire Indian history culture and values. Unfortunately, Indian history has been reduced to NCERT textbooks and pictures of GandhiJi and Netaji in Government offices. Indian culture shines during "Chabbis January parades." And, Indian values are being increasingly shrugged by our youth.

The increasing number of retirement homes for our old parents, and the ever steeper chart of rapes shows that we have stopped respect the most vulnerable in our society. A society is in peril when the numbers pf funeral homes and old-age homes sees a rising trend. This means that either we are not taking care of our parents who devoted their lives to us, or we have been struck by an epidemic and a large number of our loved ones are dying prematurely. On the other hand we must not forget that the role of the man since the time when lived in caves has been to protect the women. When more and more women are being raped every year, I get a feeling that man is not "the man" anymore. Man has abandoned his age old reponsibility in favor of serving his carnal desires.

I mostly agree with your argument, except your accusation of White people being racists,. Ofcourse there are some bad apples. As a matter of fact, I have spoken to some renowned "racists" in America. I do not know if anyone knows of David Duke, and Hal Turner. These people are always on FBI watch list. Their main concern is the dilution of Western culture and values with the inclusion of so many racially diverse groups. I agree with them. These people wont have any problem (atleast from what I know of them) if people adopted western cultures and values upon coming to this country. We seek all the good things in life when we come here. Is it too much to ask for if we show our gratitude for having this opportunity by assimilating? If this is too much of a price to pay, then we always had the option of staying back and celebrating our own culture and values.

If America really was a racist country, so many people belonging to different ethnicities wont be flocking to this land. People swim across oceans and walk across simmering deserts to come to this country. Within their heart they know that if there is one place in this world where they will be treated fairly and get their share of respect, it is America.

Another point that I wanted to mention was that it is not just in America where White women are shunned for marrying outside their community. Infact, even in the Black community it is considered treacherous to marry outside their community. Same goes for Muslim, Asian, Hispanic and out very own Indian community. Even within our community, it is considered treacherous to marry someone from a different caste or religion. This kind of attitude prevails in just any community because people are protective of their community. So, why is it racist of white people to denounce their own when they marry outside their community and it is just another issue when the same happens elsewhere.

The question that arises out of this discussion is whether I would go back to India. The answer is simple: I really do not care. I think it is all about the attitude. I think I am going to feel comfortable just anywhere as long as I retain my attitude. In real terms, it wont hurt me economically either to go back. I believe that my credentials will get me a comfortable lifestyle just anywhere in the world. However, I would preffer to live in a society that stresses on individualism.

Fact Check: Martin Luther King was never a president of the United States. he was a leader of the Black community. For everything he did, we miss the point due to the smoke screen that is put up by the history revisionists. Martin Luther King railed against the discrimination that was endorsed and advicated by the Government. Jim Crow laws that officially introduced segregation in America were a product of federal and state governments. No one mentions of segregated facilities before the American Civil War. Why? Because, there was no official segregation in America before the Civil War. There were some extablishments here and there that may have indulged in segregations, but such places were hardly known of. It was only after the Civil War, that supposedly freed the slaves (do not forget that there were both Black and White slave owners before you go: Blame Whitie again!), that zealous politicians promoted segregation in order to canvass the White political support. The same game happens in Indian politics when they talk of Muslim votes, SCST votes, Jat votes, rajput votes etc.

Coming back to where I started from, Martin Luther King wanted the government to rollback its laws that promoted segregation. There were private enterprises that quitely stopped segregating in order to improve their business even before official segregation ended. Private businesses were the first ones to be relieved when segregation was ended.

I can talk more about American history, but maybe some other time.

By the way, I do not know what neighborhood in America you are talking of. I have lived in mostly White neighborhoods and know many people who live in some of the most upscale neighborhoods across the country. I am surprised to know that you believe that White people have the time and the initiative to chase colored people out of their neighborhoods. From mine and others' personal experiences,neighbors hardly even know who is living next door. People are so busy with their lives that they hardly have time for bothering about their neighbors. I have shared a drink or two over a chat with my neighbors, but thats pretty much it. All they want to know about is what software company I work for. They are surprised to know that I am not an engineer, doctor or into academics, for a change.
 
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DND ji kabhi kisi ko mukammal jahan nahin milta...kahin zameen toh kahin asmaan nahin milta, aap unko yeh sher suna diya karo.:)

Aur kuch paanay kay liye, kuch khona padta hi hai.

Some people adjust to it and dont complain and some complain but still keep adjusting to it.

End of the day one has to decides what life style / values suits them...my close friend after spending so much money to relocate (with family) from India to NZ (via Immigration point system) came back within 8 months.

He was doing well before he left and is doing even better now since then

He is at peace and no confusion but how many people have such clarity, now he is reaping the rewards for sticking around.

Aur sumit ki post pad kar lagata hai ki assimilation aur individualism kay ek hi matlab hai.

Aur kisi ka gratitude honay ka yeh matlab nahin hai ki app apna vayktitva kho do...Did'nt you learn that from western value system.

We are what we are and we should be true to ourselves and people should accept you for who you are...yes by all means adapt and change but assimilate...woh kahawat toh suni hogi...Dhobhi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghat ka.:)
 
State Of Mind

dndeswal said:
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I never imagined that this thread of mine in "Time Pass" forum would attract so much attention. I agree with Dr. Birbal that US is still the best attractive location for hard working class while those who want to make an easy buck through "connections" are better off in India. Earlier, Sikhs and Punjabis dominated amongst Indian NRIs in the US, now, Jat brothers are also in sizeable number and most of them, except a few, do not fall in this "confused" category - hence, I have not quoted any example of Jat families facing this kind of dilemma. Nevertheless, this "ABCD" topic happens to be the favourite topic for gossips/ get-togethers amongst US based NRIs themselves and this abbreviation is their own creation !

More inputs... without prejudice please !
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Dear Sirs,
Actually there is difference of state of mind in between american born and indian born desi's. Indian borns desi don't want to work in system american born desi don't want to deviate from system.
American borns desi's will clear all his dout's before proceeding even a single step but indian born will start running without knowing his final destination. I do agree indian borns are very very good in ratafication (learning of tables,formulas,etc) but american borns desi have tendency of understanding the concepts......once you start understanding the concepts you will have lot of questions in your mind....and please do not relate asking of questions habit with the confused word.

Regards,
Ravinder Singh

Work Work Work....
 
antil-sunpatiya said:
Aur sumit ki post pad kar lagata hai ki assimilation aur individualism kay ek hi matlab hai.

Aur kisi ka gratitude honay ka yeh matlab nahin hai ki app apna vayktitva kho do...Did'nt you learn that from western value system.

We are what we are and we should be true to ourselves and people should accept you for who you are...yes by all means adapt and change but assimilate...woh kahawat toh suni hogi...Dhobhi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghat ka.:)
Click to expand...

There is a difference between assimilation and individualism.

Assimilation happens when a person adopts and respects the culture, morals, values and the way of life, of the land. An assimilated person can also have his or her own traditions. Other people in the community may or may not participate in a person's unique traditions.

In America, there are common traditions like celebrating various national holidays and respecting the founding fathers of the country, as an example. I can give more examples but, I would like to keep it concise.

However, various communities like Irish, Anglo, Catholics, Italian, Jewish Native Americans have their own personal traditions that they celebrate along with the general American traditions. Now, for example, St. Patrick's day is an Irish-Catholic event. On this day even non-Irish people join the celebrations. Same goes for Jewish and Native American holidays. Again, these are just examples.

Talking about Individualism, it is a concept that totally different from celebration of traditions. Individualism means that an Individual is empowered to explore his or her own most extreme potential, as he does not have to carry the burden of others in the society. This increases the productivity of the society as a whole as people are able to perform to their fullest potential. When people produce more, they save more. And when people save more, they have the tendency to help more. That is the reason charity from private American citizens is greater than the rest of the world put together. And this is a Individualist society where people do not have the obligation to help other. At the end of the day, it is human nature to be selfish or to be charitable. Fortunately good always wins over evil.

I find it funny the way you mentioned the "Dhobi Ka Kutta" adage. There is always a payoff that needs to be made in order to achieve certain things in life. I believe that let the individual decide how we wants to live and what he wants to believe in. One can have a diverse collection of views and opinion. There is not predetermined set of opinion that could be considered as "one size fits all."

The "bhobi ka kutta" adage is oft-repeated but is a totally foolish one. Go out and think, evolve, and re-invent yourself. At the end of the day match your thoughts with truth. Ask yourself if there is even a speck of falsities in your opinions. If the answer is yes, then go back and think, evolve and reinvent yourself. Keep doing it till you line up with truth. When you are on the side of truth, you will be on the right side.
 
dahiyarules said:
Go out and think, evolve, and re-invent yourself. At the end of the day match your thoughts with truth. Ask yourself if there is even a speck of falsities in your opinions. If the answer is yes, then go back and think, evolve and reinvent yourself. Keep doing it till you line up with truth. When you are on the side of truth, you will be on the right side.
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Bhai Sumit ... ghani aandy baat kahe di ya to tene ... nichod ..
 
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