The Popular and Currently Revived Theory of Indian Caste

D

drrajpalsingh

New member
The popular and currently received theory of caste consists of three main articles:

1. that, caste is an institution of the Hindu religion, and wholly peculiar to that religion alone;
2. that, it consists primarily of a fourfold classification of people in general under the heads of Brahman, Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Sudra;
3. that, caste is perpetual and immutable, and has been transmitted from generation to generation throughout the ages of Hindu history and myth without the possibility of change.

In opposition to these three main articles of faith, Denzil Ibbetson in his book on Punjab Castes based on the Census Data of 1881 wrote:

1. that, caste is a social far more than a religious institution; that it has no necessary connection whatever with the Hindu religion, further than that under that religion certain ideas and customs common to all primitive nations have been developed and perpetuated in an unusual degree; and that conversion from Hinduism to Islam has not necessarily the slightest effect upon the caste;

to be contd.....
 
[Contd. from previous page]


2. that, there are Brahmans who are looked upon as outcasts by those who under the fourfold classification would be classed as Sudras;

that there is no such thing as Vaisya now existing;

that it is very doubtful indeed whether there is such a thing as Kshatriya; and if there is, no two people are agreed as to where we shall look for him;

and that Sudra has no present significance save as a convenient term of abuse to apply to somebody else whom you consider lower than yourself;

while the number of castes which can be classed under any one or under no one of the four heads, according as private opinion may vary, is almost innumerable;

to be cond...
 
[Cond. from previous post]

3. That nothing can be more variable and more difficult to define than caste; and that the fact that a generation is descended from ancestors of any given caste creates a presumption, and nothing more, that that generation also is of the same caste, a presumption liable to be defeated by an infinite variety of circumstances.'' --[ ibid, pp.1-2]



This was the situation in 1880's when nothing could be derived out of the fourfold Varana system or Hindu religion as regards their relationship with the enumeration of the then existing castes of Undivided Punjab.

The participants in the debate on several threads are facing the dilemma as they cannot fit the Jat in the olden days' Varana system with certainty. Someone quotes this source to show that the Jats are Kshatriyas or Vaisyas and some other person jumps to show them as Sudras of Hindu caste system of the yore. Some go to prove their point to some High Court decision whereas others refute it vehemently.

This thread has been initiated, dear readers, to acquaint you about the prevalence of two points of view on the origin and growth of the Indian caste system and provides hypothesis on the issue in second point of view. The hypothesis as you know can be proved or rejected on the basis of data. Please come up and join discussion.

It is up to you to draw conclusion as to where do the present Jats [Hindu, Sikh, Muslim etc.] in Indian society fit.

Thanks and regards.
 
Last edited:
Dr Rajpalji, religion is also a social association and caste is more towards organizational and professional based, ofcourse later on people connected castes to birth, till the period of Mahatma Budh, varns were inter changeable, later on the people in power and advisores of the society, for their self interest, connected varns and further divisions ( castes) to birth of an individual, every religion/society has divisions more or less, In India contractors of religion were more selfish, adopted method of divide and rule thus created more divisions like varan/caste/gotra, where as other people believed more in strength of religion and used method of unity and brain washing/motivation of people.
 
Dr Janghu, First of all the definition of Hindu religion could vary a lot. So it would be fair to say Varna was/is part of the society more than religion. With regards to Jat, there were some tribes who were outside the bhamanical society so they were outside the scope of this varna system. I think jats were one of them. The other people who could fall in this could be Musalman and Christian. First Brahmins considered these people from other faith untouchables but later when they became rulers their status was changed.
Jats had taken agriculture as their main profession and settled their own villages. Jats believe in equality. There was no division in Jat society. All jats were treated same (its true today as well). Jats always had low opinion of Bhramins. For them Bhramin is a mere beggar. You can see them ridiculing Brahmins even today. Jats and bhramanical societies has co existed in the past. Jat never cared about varna not it was important in Jat societies as they believe in equality. In Jat dominant societies Brahmins has less importance. They are not considered anything more than "Thug".
 
Last edited:
VirJ said:
Dr Janghu, First of all the definition of Hindu religion could vary a lot. So I would say it would be fair to say Varna was/is part of the society more than religion. With regards to Jat, there were some tribes who were outside the bhamanical society so they were outside the scope of this varna system. I think jats were one of them. The other people who could fall in this could be Musalman and Christian. First Brahmins considered these people from other faith untouchables but later when they became rulers their status was changed.
Jats had taken agriculture as their main profession and settled their own villages. Jats believe in equality. There was no division in Jat society. All jats were treated same (its true today as well). Jats always had low opinion of Bhramins. For them Bhramin is a mere beggar. You can see them ridiculing Brahmins even today. Jats and bhramanical societies has co existed in the past. Jat never cared about varna not it was important in Jat societies as they believe in equality. In Jat dominant societies Brahmins has less importance. They are not considered anything more than "Thug".
Click to expand...

कति नीचोड़ काढ के बता दिया भाई ।
 
VirJ said:
Dr Janghu, First of all the definition of Hindu religion could vary a lot. So it would be fair to say Varna was/is part of the society more than religion. With regards to Jat, there were some tribes who were outside the bhamanical society so they were outside the scope of this varna system. I think jats were one of them. The other people who could fall in this could be Musalman and Christian. First Brahmins considered these people from other faith untouchables but later when they became rulers their status was changed.
Jats had taken agriculture as their main profession and settled their own villages. Jats believe in equality. There was no division in Jat society. All jats were treated same (its true today as well). Jats always had low opinion of Bhramins. For them Bhramin is a mere beggar. You can see them ridiculing Brahmins even today. Jats and bhramanical societies has co existed in the past. Jat never cared about varna not it was important in Jat societies as they believe in equality. In Jat dominant societies Brahmins has less importance. They are not considered anything more than "Thug".
Click to expand...

You are right to say that the Jats disdain tight control on their lifestyles and beliefs and believe in equality, fraternity and democracy. Since they did not subscribe to this water tight compartmentalisation of society on the basis of the birth, they were despised by the priestly caste.

This varna based system came into practice late as there is no mention of this division in the Rigveda except one hymn --Prusha-Sukta Mantra, X Mandal-- which is considered by the scholars as later addition to the original Rigveda. This means the Jats believed in the Rigvedic society values and ethos as they were true Aryan people.

If the Brahmins considered Christian and Muslim Jats as untouchables, the former were considered by them as Pagans and Kafirs.
 
When you say "Aryan" do you mean gentleman or you mean a particular race?

You are right that Bhramins were also considered pagans and kafirs by people from other faith but my point was just to bring out how the philosophy of varna in bhramanic society used to work.

Could you shed more light on your point of varna being late addition to rigveda. Thanks
 
VirJ said:
When you say "Aryan" do you mean gentleman or you mean a particular race?

You are right that Bhramins were also considered pagans and kafirs by people from other faith but my point was just to bring out how the philosophy of varna in bhramanic society used to work.

Could you shed more light on your point of varna being late addition to rigveda. Thanks
Click to expand...

The 'Aryan' represents ethnic and linguistic group and also stands for the people who came from Central Asian region whose colour was fairer than the aboriginal inhabitants who are said to be of darker skin as described in the contemporary literature.

The Purus-Sukata, Rig Veda, X, 90 is the only mantra/verse which talks of the division of labour in four categories of its members among the Rigvedic Aryans. This leads to its suspicious inclusion in the Rigveda and that too in the Last Mandala/chapter. If there was such thing as Varna system during that period, there must have been more descriptions to allude to it, is surmised by the Scholars on the Vedas.

Therefore, it is certain that there prevailed no caste system during the Rig Vedic period; notwithstanding finding of some groups engaged in various professions here and there. Both Varna System and Caste System gradually flourished in later Rig vedic period.
 
The fact is that these divisions of people, worship of five elements, sacrifices etc were started by Aryans, varns started by manu. brahamins were also ariyans, you can see even now brahamins of south are very fair coloured people, also consider the information that before ariyans came, loacals of north-west india use to worship shiva, so if we consider our some connection with shiva than we were already here, also another theory of ariyans says that they were here in the north-west indian area which was extended till afganistan, request to dr Rajpalji to through some light on above points also.
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
The 'Aryan' represents ethnic and linguistic group and also stands for the people who came from Central Asian region whose colour was fairer than the aboriginal inhabitants who are said to be of darker skin as described in the contemporary literature.
Click to expand...

When did they come to India? Do we know what was their language ? If they have conquered India then history hasn't recorded any war. Do we have solid base to support this theory? Thanks
 
VirJ said:
When did they come to India? Do we know what was their language ? If they have conquered India then history hasn't recorded any war. Do we have solid base to support this theory? Thanks
Click to expand...

Do you frequently visit history section, Jyani? The same topic is under discussion from months and has reached around 100 pages. I think you have just read rebuttal of AAI (aryan arrival theory)...that is pretty vogue now -a-days.......it 's a long way to go bhai....Rajpal ji aapko reply akrenge par aap manooge nahi mujhe pata hai! :)
 
Last edited:
I am not asking him because I don't agree with him. I am asking him because he knows more than me and I want to learn. If you know anything on the subject please share.
 
VirJ said:
When did they come to India? Do we know what was their language ? If they have conquered India then history hasn't recorded any war. Do we have solid base to support this theory? Thanks
Click to expand...

Please read Rig veda where war hymns addressed to Indra abound with daan stutis.

The Puranas and epic Mahabharata record several wars of the newer entrants with the

earlier inhabitants as well as among various tribes of the Aryans themselves.

The people known as Aryans too arrived in several waves from the central Asia starting

with Pauravas, Bharatas, Kurus etc. This immigration seems to have continued later on

as the arrival of white hunas [Scythians], Kushanas, Iranians, Bactrians, Parthians etc etc

in pre-christian era times.

If interested to know the details of previous discussion on the issue, kindly

visit Jat land threads in history section, please.
 
VirJ said:
I am not asking him because I don't agree with him. I am asking him because he knows more than me and I want to learn. If you know anything on the subject please share.
Click to expand...

Friend,

Your questions are valid and for their reply as pointed out by Mr. Prashant you have to first go through a very topsy turvy discussion lasting several months on many threads of History section. The same discussion can be carried forward if you have something new to add.

The purpose of starting this thread in this general discussion section was just to clarify the social issues as more people visit this thread and during recent days hotly discussed social formations, varna and caste system in Hindu society. People seem confused in comparing the present social milieu with the pre-historic developments in society like Varana system and social stratification. We must understand the gradual growth of social, economic and political institutions and why and what changes come in their way before they reached the present stage.

To understand this complex phenomenon the contribution of all participants is invited and I shall try to share my little bit knowledge with the participants.



Thanks.
 
RSKharb said:
The fact is that these divisions of people, worship of five elements, sacrifices etc were started by Aryans, varns started by manu. brahamins were also ariyans, you can see even now brahamins of south are very fair coloured people, also consider the information that before ariyans came, loacals of north-west india use to worship shiva, so if we consider our some connection with shiva than we were already here, also another theory of ariyans says that they were here in the north-west indian area which was extended till afganistan, request to dr Rajpalji to through some light on above points also.
Click to expand...

Friend,

Kindly vist history section where all information has been discussed on this issue. Details on this issue are there on wiki page of the Jatland too.

Thanks
 
Bhramins had a strong hold on the Indian society ,in general, pre muslim ear. Since the Muslim invasion and esp during the Mughal rule the Bhramins has lost its place in the society to an extent. With that the varna system itself become less important. People realised that even those who are not part of varna can rule too or those who are outside the varna can be superior to those who are in the varna. This changed the belief which bhramins implanted in the society. Mughals also opposed some of the bhraminic rituals like sati partha etc. Lot of people became followers of Peers and sants who made sense to them rather than the superstitious Pandits and many of those peers were not hindus. All this had made varna system much weaker in India especially in North West India.

It was only with the advent of the English, who put the Bhramins back to the Top place in the society. British did lot of studies to understand Indian society and they realised that to rule they have to make the gap within the society wider and since then they encouraged discrimination based on varna and religion. During 1857 they saw Hindus fighting under Muslim leadership and realised this could be dangerous for their rule and since then they tried to make Muslims weaker and killed all the possible heirs of Mughals.
 
Last edited:
VirJ said:
Bhramins had a strong hold on the Indian society ,in general, pre muslim ear. Since the Muslim invasion and esp during the Mughal rule the Bhramins has lost its place in the society to an extent. With that the varna system itself become less important. People realised that even those who are not part of varna can rule too or those who are outside the varna can be superior to those who are in the varna. This changed the belief which bhramins implanted in the society. Mughals also opposed some of the bhraminic rituals like sati partha etc. Lot of people became followers of Peers and sants who made sense to them rather than the superstitious Pandits and many of those peers were not hindus. All this had made varna system much weaker in India especially in North West India.

It was only with the advent of the English, who put the Bhramins back to the Top place in the society. British did lot of studies to understand Indian society and they realised that to rule they have to make the gap within the society wider and since then they encouraged discrimination based on varna and religion. During 1857 they saw Hindus fighting under Muslim leadership and realised this could be dangerous for their rule and since then they tried to make Muslims weaker and killed all the possible heirs of Mughals.
Click to expand...

You have rightly pointed out the contribution of Bhakt and Sufi Saints to bridge gap between the Hindu Muslim population of the country.

But your views on the British killing the Mughal Emperor's heirs to paint as elimination of the Muslim leadership;

and,

granting top place to Brahmins in Indian Society by the British need deeper understanding of the contemporary developments in socio-economic and political field in India vis a vis the ever changing and evolving British policy the essence of which lied in the 'Divide and Rule'.
They carried out massacre of those Indians, irrespective of their caste creed or religion/region, who opposed their way to colonise India in 1857 and prior to it as well as after it too. Therefore there does not rise question of special efforts to appease Brahmins at the cost of the Muslims in general and the Mughals in particular by the British.

They patronised only those who were useful for longevity of their colonialism and discarded them as and when their staying with them became burdensome. Pages of history of those days are full of such incidents and behaviour of the British.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top