True Democracy

[sjakhars]

Hello Jatlanders.
I just read an atricle in "navbharattimes" by Mr. Arvind Kejriwal. Mr. Kejriwal talks about the democracy we have and and its truness. His analysis and information makes a good reading but very hard to implement, specially in Indian conditions. He has also given some exmaples like a city in Brazil and the Swiss system of governance.
Here is the link:
http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4521263.cms

What can be done in India to make public participating in locall affairs and devleopment decisions? I do realize that its very very hard but where we can start? As Mr. Kejriwal says as soon as you vote, you have given all your powers to a bunch of people and they dont come back to you until the next election.
We have got lots of people here from different backgrounds, different countries, different ideologies So lets have a kind of brainstorming session on this.

Regards.

 

[samarkadian]

Here is the link:
http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4521263.cms


अमेरिका में हर मुहल्ले की अपनी स्थानीय असेंबली होती है। वहां एक फुटपाथ भी बनना हो तो म्युनिसिपैलिटी हरेक बाशिंदे से उसकी राय पूछती है। स्थानीय नागरिक निश्चित तारीख को टाउन हॉल में उपस्थित होते हैं और ऐसी योजनाओं पर अपना फैसला सुनाते हैं। आपने वॉलमार्ट का नाम सुना होगा। इस प्रसिद्ध रिटेल चेन को ओरेगांव में अपना स्टोर खोलना था। इस पर ओरेगांव के नागरिक टाउन हॉल में इकट्ठा हुए। विचार-विमर्श के दौरान उन्होंने पाया कि इससे इलाके की छोटी-छोटी दुकानें बंद हो जाएंगी, जिन्हें ममियां और पापा अपने खाली समय में चलाते हैं। इससे बेरोजगारी फैलेगी। नागरिकों के फैसले के बाद वॉलमार्ट को वहां स्टोर खोलने से मना कर दिया गया। क्या अपने यहां सेज या शॉपिंग मॉल के लिए जमीन मुहैया कराते समय प्रशासन, स्थानीय जमीन अधिग्रहण करने के अलावा जनता से किसी भी तरह की कोई बात करता है?
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इसी तरह ब्राजील का एक शहर है पोर्तो अलेग्रे। इस शहर में 1989 से स्थानीय बजट बनाते समय वहां के नागरिकों को भी सहभागी बनाया जा रहा है। पंद्रह लाख की आबादी वाले इस शहर में हर साल लगभग 20 करोड़ डॉलर की रकम जनता अपनी इच्छा से खर्च करती है, जिसका प्रावधान मुख्य बजट में अलग से किया जाता है। शहर के विभिन्न इलाकों, आय वर्गों, पेशों और आयु वर्गों के प्रतिनिधि मिल कर यह तय करते हैं कि इस बार शहर के किस हिस्से में किस चीज का विकास किया जाना चाहिए। सर्वेक्षणों में इस शहर के लोगों की क्वॉलिटी ऑफ लाइफ सबसे उम्दा पाई गई है। इस पाटिर्सिपेटरी बजटिंग का नतीजा यह भी हुआ है कि वहां शत प्रतिशत टैक्स कलेक्शन होता है और शत प्रतिशत वोटिंग होती है।

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स्विटजरलैंड में तो संवैधानिक व्यवस्था ही ऐसी है कि पचास हजार मतदाता मिल कर अपने हस्ताक्षर द्वारा वहां की सरकार द्वारा बनाए गए किसी भी कानून को चुनौती दे सकते हैं और उस पर राष्ट्रीय स्तर पर जनमत संग्रह करा सकते हैं। क्या भारत में आबादी का कितना भी बड़ा हिस्सा किसी कानून को बदलवाने के लिए कोई प्रक्रिया शुरू कर सकता है?
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भारतीय शासन व्यवस्था में तीन ऐसे मुद्दे हैं, जिन पर वोटर या जनता का कोई वश नहीं चलता और जिनमें दखल देने की जरूरत स्पष्ट रूप से महसूस की जाती है। ये तीनों हैं - सरकारी तंत्र का फंक्शन, उसके फंक्शनरी और फंड। अभी तक इन तीनों पर सिर्फ नेताओं और सरकारी कर्मचारियों का ही कब्जा रहा है। लेकिन अब देश में सहभागी और स्वराज जैसे कुछ अभियान चलाए जा रहे हैं जो कहते हैं कि इन तीनों में यथासंभव जनता को भी भागीदार बनाया जाए। यह काम कैसे किया जाएगा- इसके लिए कई मॉडल हो सकते हैं। हमारे और आपके मॉडल अलग-अलग भी हो सकते हैं, लेकिन सहभागिता जरूरी है।
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बीते छह दशकों का अनुभव यही बताता है कि वोट देने के बाद सिविक गवर्नंस या विकास की योजनाओं में आम नागरिकों की कोई भी भूमिका नहीं रह जाती। हमारे ही क्षेत्र के प्रशासन और विकास के मामले में हम कुछ भी नहीं, पर सरकार द्वारा नियुक्त कर्मचारी सारे अधिकार रखता है, यहां तक कि हमारी आवाज या शिकायत सुनना- न सुनना या उसे मानना- नहीं मानना भी उसके अपने विवेक पर निर्भर करता है। वोट डालते ही हमारे हाथ से सारी सत्ता निकल कर चंद दूसरे लोगों के हाथों में पहुंच जाती है, जिसका प्रयोग वे अपनी इच्छा से या निरंकुश तरीके से करने को स्वतंत्र होते हैं। यह सच्चा लोकतंत्र नहीं है। इससे नागरिकों को वास्तविक अधिकार नहीं मिल पाए हैं।
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What can be done in India to make public participating in locall affairs and devleopment decisions? I do realize that its very very hard but where we can start? As Mr. Kejriwal says as soon as you vote, you have given all your powers to a bunch of people and they dont come back to you until the next election.
We have got lots of people here from different backgrounds, different countries, different ideologies So lets have a kind of brainstorming session on this.

Regards.

Jakhar ji, Thanks a lot for bringing this topic on the forum. I have pasted few important excerpts from the article.Just to let everyone inform about mr Arvind Kejriwal. He is Raman Maggassasy Award winner for being a key person in RTI( Right To Information ) act to Indian population. He runs an NGO for the same. I have a lot of respect for him but respectfuly disagree on some of his points.

I agree with him when he says we are a biggest democracy. Yes! we are surely are but Are we good enough to be a model democracy? I guess most will not nod over this.

He smartly and with pure good intent brought out the examples of US, Brazil and Switzerland. Undoubtly, working of democracy is far ahead than of us.
I see many reason for that. Since modern form of democracy is the brain-child of west, it has been implemented in west much before than our country. So it is quite common sensical to take there progress as natural. May be in initial 60-100 years of implementation, they would be bad or worse. At this point I found Mr Arvind's comparison a bit shaky.

Since our polity is borrowed from various counteries. It is not ours as in nature.Just curious if anyone can come forward to let me or us know about Indigenous system of governance. We are trying to mold ourselves according to alien governance.

One basic point, I would like to make here is our much hyped diversity. Counteries mentioned in Mr Arvind's write-up have uniformity of Religion/belief/color/race. Where as India is as diverse as nature. At this point implementation of democracy turns in to a tough nightmare. Above mentioned counteries have been doing this for centuaries and people are accustomed to it for generations now. They are conditioned to it. While India's independence is just one generation.

If we assume that democratic way of governance is the best available option to us then the intellectuals, thinkers like Mr Kejriwal should/must think on the lines of Indian way of governance in democracy unlike inspiration/copying from another land. Here Indian way , I mean Nature, Mentality, Values, Beliefs of people of Diversely United States of India. Inspiration is good but invention is anytime better.Further, a Empowered Democracy could be a better option for governance. It would require a reigme of atleast one decade by one government.

 

[virendernarwal]

भारतवर्ष का सच्चा लोकतंत्र !!

लोकतंत्र को वोटतंत्र से आगे ले जाने का जो मूल मंत्र अरविंद केजरीवाल जी ने सुझाया है…वाकई काबिले तारिफ़ है…आज तमाम राजनीतिक हस्तियों, बुद्दिजीवियों और प्रशासनिक अधिकारियों को इस विषय पर देश हित में गहन मथन करने की आवश्यकता है…..परिणाम वंश….देखने योग्य बात होगी कि इस मथन से विष निकलेगा या अमृत।
जैसा की अमेरिका का उदाहरण दिया गया है कि फ़ैसलें वहां के बाशिंदों की राय से लिये जाते हैं…राय देना ओर लेना तो कोई हम हिन्दुस्तानियों से सिखे….राय ओर सलाह यहां मुफ़्त में दी जाती रही हैं…मगर एक मुश्त राय हो पाना यहां जरा असंभव हैं…क्यूंकि प्रजातंत्र है…..ओर यहां राय मे भी वोटिग होगी..…लोकसभा ओर विधानसभा के अलावा ग्राम-पंचायत, ब्लाक स्तर, जिला स्तर ओर शहरों में वार्ड स्तर पर जो नुमाइन्दे चुने जाते हैं उनकी कार्य-प्रणाली अगर निष्पक्ष ओर दूरदर्शिता से प्रेरित हो तो फ़िर हमें “ओर” राय लेने की जरूरत ही कहां है ? आखिर ये सभी भी तो हमारी राय एवं सहमती से ही चुने गये हैं।
आज शायद ईमानदार उसे कहा जा रहा है जिसे कभी परखा ना गया हो…या जिसे बेइमानी करने का सुअवसर प्राप्त ना हुआ हो…..ओर बेइमान का तगमा उसे नशीब हो रहा है जो रंगे हाथ पकडा जाये |
ये इस देश का दुर्भाग्य नही तो ओर क्या है…..के "दुनियां के सबसे बडे लोकतंत्र" संसद/विधानसभाओं को दस्यु सुंदरी फ़ूलन देवी, शाहबुद्दिन, शिबू सोरेन और माफ़िया डान अरूण गवली सरीखे अनेकों लोगों ने कलंकित किया है ओर करते रहेंगे।
आजादी के मायने हमारे मूल्क में काफ़ी अलहायदा हैं…….आजादी का मतलब “हम” शायद कुछ भी अनुचित करने का अधिकार मानते हैं…..कानून ओर कार्यप्रणाली को अपंग करने में आम जनता की भागेदारी क्या कम है…..कौन है जो आज इन्तजार करना चाहता है……अपना या सामूहिक काम निकालने के लिये हम वो हर हथकंडा अपना लेते हैं जो किसी भी सुचारू तंत्र को सदा के लिये लचर करने में सक्षम हो।
राजनीति पहले एक सेवा का माध्यम हुआ करता था…..सुलझे हुये ओर बुद्दिजीवी लोग निष्वार्थ भावना से देश ओर प्रदेश का नेतृत्व किया करते थे….लेकिन राजनीति के गिरते स्तर ने आज सेवा-भाव के मायने बदल दिये हैं।
प्रशासनिक अधिकारी जो एक अहम कडी है देश ओर देश वासियों को सही दिशा देने के लिये …..लेकिन ये “सरकार के जमाईं” एक कुशल घोडे के समान है….जैसे ही सवार (Politician) इन पर बैठाता है ये तुरंत समझ जाते है कि सवार अनाडी है या खिलाडी…..अगर सवार एक मझां हुआ खिलाडी है तो प्रशासनिक अधिकारीयों की चाल देखने लायक होती है…ओर अगर सवार (Politician) अनाडी हुआ तो सवार को ओधें मूंह धूल चटाने में देर नही लगाते अपने अधिकारी गण। प्रशासनिक अधिकारी जिस दिशा में हवा बहती है उसी दिशा में बहने की समझदारी दिखाते हैं
यहां के समीकरण बडे अजीब हैं…..राजनीति ओर राजनीतिक फ़ैसले जात-पात, धर्म, गोत्र, के फ़ायदे ओर नुकसान को मध्यनजर रखते हुये लिये जाते हैं…..सता सुख कौन नही भोगना चाहता….सता का गणित बिठाने में हम से महिर कोई नही है…….जुगाड लगाना ओर जुगाड बिठाना तो बांए हाथ का खेल है…..फ़िर चाहे कोई दल कितना भी अछूत या असहनिय क्यूं ना रहा हो……गलबहियां होने मे देर नही लगाते हमारे राजनैतिक।
प्रशासनिक अधिकारियों की नियुक्ती…..उनकी योग्यता के साथ-साथ इस बात पर भी निर्भर करती है की वो सरकार के प्रति कितना समर्पित है। आफ़िसर जनता की इच्छा से हटाये ओर लगाये जाते रहे हैं…….मगर देशहित में नहीं…...वोट बैंक को मद्देनजर रखते हुये।
लोकतंत्र मे वोट की चिन्ता जरूर है….मगर वोटर की किसी को चिन्ता नही है…..वोट लेने के बाद हमारे कुछ नुमाइन्दे पांच साल के लिये पैर पसार कर सो जाते हैं…….शायद यही भारतवर्ष का सच्चा लोकतंत्र है।

 

[sjakhars]

Thanks

Thanks Samar and Virender Ji for your inputs. I expected some more replies on this but anyway nice to read your thoughts.
I partially agree with Samar when he says that India is a young democracy but its been 60+ years and still we are living in British "foot daalo aur raj karo" era.
Virender Ji has put forward some harsh realities of our political system and I agree with them when they say that everyone is worried about the vote but no one about the voter. I think this is where all the problems reside.

Now to take this discussion further, can someone tell us about the progress of US democracy since 1784? Was it same like India 60+ years post independence? If not then what are the differences? I have read a bit about US history and do remember the "Loot Pranali" where the newly elected President used to appoint his relatives/friends/political allies in important and financially beneficial positions. Its true that when we compare two things, we have to take time factor in consideration. I invite all the historians and political science scholars to enlighten us on this vital issue.

Regards.

 

[fateh]

Indian democracy is something like- Grass is free to grow as much as it can & donky is free to eat as much as it can manage. I think niether our people are suitably educated nor the constitutional provisions are suitable in our case. It is known fact that most of the provisions are borrowed from other nations & most of the commattee members niether had knowledge of real India nor they had enough time to draft the constitution. I personally belive that in India there is no democracy on ground, it is only on paper. On ground there is worst kind of dictatorship is existing in our nation. on ground India is niether democratic nor secular state .

 

[brainspeak]

Thanks Samar and Virender Ji for your inputs. I expected some more replies on this but anyway nice to read your thoughts.
I partially agree with Samar when he says that India is a young democracy but its been 60+ years and still we are living in British "foot daalo aur raj karo" era.
Virender Ji has put forward some harsh realities of our political system and I agree with them when they say that everyone is worried about the vote but no one about the voter. I think this is where all the problems reside.

Now to take this discussion further, can someone tell us about the progress of US democracy since 1784? Was it same like India 60+ years post independence? If not then what are the differences? I have read a bit about US history and do remember the "Loot Pranali" where the newly elected President used to appoint his relatives/friends/political allies in imoportant and financially beneficial positions. Its true that when we compare two things, we have to take time factor in consideration. I invite all the historians and political science scholars to enlighten us on this vital issue.

Regards.

The question baffling everyone since India become independent is - how come a country this diverse has been able to stand on its feet and move forward?? It should have collapsed long ago..the British before leaving predicted a short life for India as a nation, the intellectulas have been saying it for long that we will not survive and yet here we are...clocking 9% growth, providing IT solutions to the world, one of the biggest consumer markets...nd so on.

What is the answer to it??....I think its because of our democratic setup. And India is a unique democracy. No doubt about it. Since every system has some flaws, so does our. But to find solutions for these flaws by looking upto other countries is not correct. We have to find solutions which are compatible with our problems. In every discussion the inevitable comparison with the US comes up. Why??

True democracy will be achieved only when majority of the populace is brought to a common minimum denominator.

 

[deepika]

Not only participation of public is required but lot of changes in the present scenario are the need of hour.I dont know if these will be feasible but i would like to give a few suggestions:

1.No person with criminal background should be allowed to contest elections in any way.I wonder when we have to get our passport made,authorities consider if one has criminal background or not then how come a person who has any kind of case/FIR registered against him/her is allowed to contest election.It shows our so called political system is so unorganized with no rules and regulations.

2.Any politician who is under suspicion for invlovement in any kind of scam shouldn't be allowed to contest election in future (this should also be strictly followed)

3.There should be some organization more powerful than the local elected politicians(regionwise).There should be Complaint boxes easliy accessible to the public,where public can drop complaint against the local elected person for neglecting his/her job.The organization should take immediate strict actions.All the government offices(where pubic has to deal) should have complaint boxes,not for the sake of having one but should be used properly.

4.Last but not least,we should have a better judicial system.Quick decisions should be made and should be implemented.Criminals are MP because of our faulty judicial system.A country's progress depends mostly on law and order situation of the country.So if its weak things are tend to be slow and unfair.Reports from survey reveals that we have so many cases pending in our Indian courts that it may take another 466 years to clear backlog.

Hello Jatlanders.
I just read an atricle in "navbharattimes" by Mr. Arvind Kejriwal. Mr. Kejriwal talks about the democracy we have and and its truness. His analysis and information makes a good reading but very hard to implement, specially in Indian conditions. He has also given some exmaples like a city in Brazil and the Swiss system of governance.
Here is the link:
http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4521263.cms

What can be done in India to make public participating in locall affairs and devleopment decisions? I do realize that its very very hard but where we can start? As Mr. Kejriwal says as soon as you vote, you have given all your powers to a bunch of people and they dont come back to you until the next election.
We have got lots of people here from different backgrounds, different countries, different ideologies So lets have a kind of brainstorming session on this.

Regards.

 

[brahmtewatia]

EDUCATION... thts the only thing tht can see india through. you can give 1000's of suggestions, all in vain. education will control the population... A MUST !!!
so many things, then will be so easy to achieve nd will get streamlined on its own.

 

[annch]

Brahm...
JL par 100% literacy rate hai aur phir bhi.....
We will get our right to information, a say in the policy and governnace, executive, judiciary, administrative....but would we excercise it...do we even have the inclination to excercise it?
And democracy provides representation to everyone, including the jerks, who would have an equal say!!!!

EDUCATION... thts the only thing tht can see india through. you can give 1000's of suggestions, all in vain. education will control the population... A MUST !!!
so many things, then will be so easy to achieve nd will get streamlined on its own.

 

[sjakhars]

Absolutely

Brahm...
JL par 100% literacy rate hai aur phir bhi.....
We will get our right to information, a say in the policy and governnace, executive, judiciary, administrative....but would we excercise it...do we even have the inclination to excercise it?

Absolutely Anjoo Ji.
I would like to repeat one of my quote from an earlier thread.
"इस देश को सबसे बड़ा खतरा पढ़े-लिखे निष्क्रिय लोगों से ही है."

We always talk that education is the key, definitely it is but do we, so called educated citizens perform our duties as we should do. We do not go to vote as we think its waste of time. We have a mentality that nothing is going to change with our vote. We always try not to pay taxes by legal and illegal means.

 

[subh0007]

khatra toh har kisi ko hai ...... ek gulal movie song hai na " jaise door desh ke tower mein guss jaye airoplane ...."

Absolutely Anjoo Ji.
I would like to repeat one of my quote from an earlier thread.
"इस देश को सबसे बड़ा खतरा पढ़े-लिखे निष्क्रिय लोगों से ही है."

We always talk that education is the key, definitely it is but do our so called educated citizens perform their duties as they should do. They do not go to vote as they think its waste of time. They have a mentality that nothing is going to change with their vote. They always try not to pay tax es by legal and illegal means.

 

[sjakhars]

Economic growth and democracy

The question baffling everyone since India become independent is - how come a country this diverse has been able to stand on its feet and move forward?? It should have collapsed long ago..the British before leaving predicted a short life for India as a nation, the intellectulas have been saying it for long that we will not survive and yet here we are...clocking 9% growth, providing IT solutions to the world, one of the biggest consumer markets...nd so on.

What is the answer to it??....I think its because of our democratic setup. And India is a unique democracy. No doubt about it. Since every system has some flaws, so does our. But to find solutions for these flaws by looking upto other countries is not correct. We have to find solutions which are compatible with our problems. In every discussion the inevitable comparison with the US comes up. Why??

True democracy will be achieved only when majority of the populace is brought to a common minimum denominator.

Thanks Kuldeep Ji for your valuable contribution in this discussion. You correctly said that "India is shining" but is it equal everywhere?

Anyway, this thread is about the democracy and not about economic growth. We have a good workforce, an educated population but how many of us are performing our duties as responsible citizens? To say it in other way, does every Indian have a say in their local affairs? We can not expect the changes in a year or a decade but its been 60 years and still we are not in a better condition. A villager still thinks that the DM is his "Maibaap", his "sarkar" as it used to be in British era.
As far as the comparison is concerned, if a good comparison is done, many things can be learnt from that. As rightly said by Samar, Indian democracy is a brain child of western democratic model which was adopted without any change in Indian conditions which are entirely different from the west.
Now, we can not change the past but certainly we can learn from the same. We can learn from the US experiences though conditions are/were different for the same model. We can suggest changes in the system according our own nature, mentality, values and beliefs and invent Samar's "Empowered Democracy". To do that we have to study the model, western conditions, Indian conditions and come out with solution.

I agree with Brahm Ji partially that we need education but we need "Awareness" also with education, we need a sense of responsibility in our citizens.

 

[brainspeak]

Thanks Kuldeep Ji for your valuable contribution in this discussion. You correctly said that "India is shining" but is it equal everywhere?

Anyway, this thread is about the democracy and not about economic growth. We have a good workforce, an educated population but how many of us are performing our duties as responsible citizens? To say it in other way, does every Indian have a say in their local affairs? We can not expect the changes in a year or a decade but its been 60 years and still we are not in a better condition. A villager still thinks that the DM is his "Maibaap", his "sarkar" as it used to be in British era.
As far as the comparison is concerned, if a good comparison is done, many things can be learnt from that. As rightly said by Samar, Indian democracy is a brain child of western democratic model which was adopted without any change in Indian conditions which are entirely different from the west.
Now, we can not change the past but certainly we can learn from the same. We can learn from the US experiences though conditions are/were different for the same model. We can suggest changes in the system according our own nature, mentality, values and beliefs and invent Samar's "Empowered Democracy". To do that we have to study the model, western conditions, Indian conditions and come out with solution.

I agree with Brahm Ji partially that we need education but we need "Awareness" also with education, we need a sense of responsibility in our citizens.

Jakharji,

Your last two lines have hit the nail on the head. Awareness combined with Education.

But how to bring this change?? Thats the question.

Another thing that comes up is the -- shortcomings of our constitutional setup and our constitution. What exactly is wrong with our constituion??

As for the comparison and learing from the west, no harm in it. What is needed to be kept in mind is the fact the parameter that we are comparing and trying to improve upon should be an isolated one. If that parameter is influenced by and attached to 10 different things that have helped it to bring it to its present form then we should resist making any kinda comparisons.(I m not sure if I put it correctly. Kindly correct me if this doesnot make sense. We can always take examples and discuss)

Does Democracy include and is influenced by Economic growth and economic conditions??...I would say yes. We cant discuss Democracy without delibrating upon the Economic prespective. But that I believe is currently not the aim of the presentthread.

Regards,

Kuldeep

 

[amans]

Is India a failed democracy?

What do you think?

 

[vj]

India a failed democracy....i dont think so.

Sir ...with all due respect I dont think India is a failed democracy....but i dont have any fact or figures to support my statement.

Hopefully i will post again...very soon..with few good points..

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

" कुछ बात हैं कि हस्ती मिटती नहीं हमारी |
सदियों रहा हैं , दुश्मन दौरे जहाँ हमारा ||"

 

[bls31]

What is the provocation to even think like this and raise the issue unless you have a different definition of democracy . Indian public has demonstrated time and time again that they can change the government of the day as and when they feel like with elections and vote there weapon

 

[hemanthooda]

Aman,

India is not a failed Democracy at all.....i dont have single iota of doubt abt it.... what prompted u to ask this question?

regards
Hemant Hooda

 

[sachinb]

Hooda-?????????????

Jo tu kah ga bhai ham vohe maanan ne tyaar saa,,,,,first you give your oppppinioonnn

What do you think?

 

[brahmtewatia]

this thread must not go into JL archives w/o any further discussion(s). wud like to invite more views frm worthy fellow members. folks have time to contibute on another one liner 'democracy' thread... but why not here.