True Democracy

[sjakhars]

Merged both threads

I have merged both threads so we can have further discussion on "True Democracy" and also about "Indian democracy failure/succes".
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Probably we can point out:
What have we acheived in last 60 years of democracy and what could have been an alternative if we underachieved somewhere?
What was expected from the democracy 60 year ago?
How far is a person at ground level aware of democracy and its implecations i.e advantages/disadvantages, his/her rights and his/her duties?
What has been the difference between the theory of democracy and the actual ground level implementation of the same?
It would be very impractical (In other words, impossible) now to change so how can we improve in terms of underachievement?
As we have seen economics coming in picture in this thread and also in devlopment issues, was the mix economy approach with socialism in mind, good enough for a country like India?

My commnets will follow later on above points.




Regards.

 

[deepakchoudhry]

Nothing is impossible. We had this system before.

Hello Jatlanders.
I just read an atricle in "navbharattimes" by Mr. Arvind Kejriwal. Mr. Kejriwal talks about the democracy we have and and its truness. His analysis and information makes a good reading but very hard to implement, specially in Indian conditions. He has also given some exmaples like a city in Brazil and the Swiss system of governance.
Here is the link:
http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4521263.cms

What can be done in India to make public participating in locall affairs and devleopment decisions? I do realize that its very very hard but where we can start? As Mr. Kejriwal says as soon as you vote, you have given all your powers to a bunch of people and they dont come back to you until the next election.
We have got lots of people here from different backgrounds, different countries, different ideologies So lets have a kind of brainstorming session on this.

Regards.

It does not take a rocket scientist to work out that Indian democratic system has failed it's people and miserably.

What has been mentioned in the article is not new to us, When British first came to India they were amazed that how people were governing themselves at the local level.

People would come together and make decisions which were good for their community, State was involved only in defence and tax collection.

As Conquerers they felt, they had to impose their superior system on the natives


Of course there were other reasons but to cut the long story short, The answer lies in the first para of the article.

Local governance by Local people. State just becomes the facilitator and provider of catalyst to progress, that to me is true democracy.


Will this happen?? Why not !!!

Maybe we don't control everything but we control our participation.

We need to get politically involved and aware of what is going on, participation is the key (like we are doing right here).

Support honest and good people.
Become volunteers.
Make leaders accountable.

I have hope and I think the worm has begin to turn.

 

[amans]

Another member pointed out that Indian democracy is a sham. India has been ruled after independence for the most part by the Ghandi family. One family ruling such a vast country for the most part!. Congress had to call up Sonia Ghandi (an italian) to lead Congress in order to win elections! Ghandi name wins elections! What percentage of MP, MLA's, ruling classes have their children fighting for the country? They live in luxury, protected, they can buy off justice, get plum jobs, get their children into excellent colleges based on influence, drive BMW's(like another member said on tax payers rupaiyaa), add to their swiss bank balance.
But I think there is no such thing as true democracy.

 

[roaringtomer]

Another member pointed out that Indian democracy is a sham. India has been ruled after independence for the most part by the Ghandi family. One family ruling such a vast country for the most part!. Congress had to call up Sonia Ghandi (an italian) to lead Congress in order to win elections! Ghandi name wins elections! What percentage of MP, MLA's, ruling classes have their children fighting for the country? They live in luxury, protected, they can buy off justice, get plum jobs, get their children into excellent colleges based on influence, drive BMW's(like another member said on tax payers rupaiyaa), add to their swiss bank balance.
But I think there is no such thing as true democracy.

Mr Hooda ..I totally concur with you.. by the way..golly wolly..what a pleasure seeing thy up and about again after a rather long time..ur way of writing has not changed at all ..way to go

 

[mann123]

I doubt we have a real time Democracy like the some of the countries in the world though we are largest Democracy for a single day.

 

[dahiyarules]

I have been following this thread for a while now. Political philosophy is one of my favorite subjects and I try to learn as much as I can about it.

I read this article on www.LewRockwell.com

It nicely summarizes the ideas of a Republic and a Democracy.

Most people forget that India is a Republic with a democratic form of Government. By that I mean, Indian citizens get to vote their representatives into office. The elected representatives then have the responsibility to promote the voters' agenda.

The head of the Republic, i.e. the president, is elected by our elected representatives.

In a democracy, people get to vote and speak out on specific national issues. That is not possible for a country as large as India. That's why we have a Republic where we elect representatives who go to state Legislatures and the Parliament and represent us and our agenda.

Unfortunately, facts as basic as those summarized above and below are not understood by our elected representatives who misunderstand the voters' mandate to serve to be the voters' mandate to allow their representatives to plunder.

I lost my beleif that we live in a democracy the day I visited an elected MP family friend of ours. It was a Sunday morning and he was holding the "Sabha." Kissans and other folks from various villages in his constituency we there to request little favors. They sat on his lawn with their arms folded in obedience.

I thought we lived in a democracy where the voter was above the legislator. Thats did not seem to be the case from what I saw that day. It is in our genes to be slaves to our rulers. Long ago we were slaves to the Hindu Rajas. Then came the Mussalmans followed by their Nawabs who got kicked in the butt by the firangees.

Many people live under the disillusion that the partition of India was the final kiss of death by the British to our people. Wrong! I think a democratic form of Government was the final kiss of death by the British Raj to our people.

They ensured that they left our country trapped by a system of Government that no one will be able to criticize because it allegedly stands for "the rule of the people." Add to that the Babudom and the Bureacracy that were the trademark of the British Raj. Generations of our people have been enslaved in the name of democracy.

If you really want India to once again prosper (not just economically) socially and spiritually then we need to move back the centers of power from New-Delhi and state capitals, back to towns, villages and cities. People need to revert to a local form of government where elected representatives feel the wrath of the voters more quickly becuase they cannot hide their behinds, miles away in New Delhi and state capitals.

Here's the article I am talking about: http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese491.html

The Basic Flaw

by Charley Reese
by Charley Reese


The basic flaw in the neoconservative ideology is that democracy cannot be imposed on other people at the point of a gun.

Furthermore, if neoconservatives came from an American tradition rather than a Trotskyite tradition, they would understand that America itself is not a democracy. Benjamin Franklin emerged from the Constitutional Convention and a lady asked him, "Well, Mr. Franklin, what kind of government have you given us?" He did not say democracy. He replied, "Madam, we have given you a republic – if you can keep it."

A republic and a democracy are two different animals. A democracy, which can actually work only in a very small country, allows citizens to vote on every issue. A republic allows citizens to elect representatives, who then use their own judgment to decide issues. If the citizens disagree with the representatives' decisions, they can replace them at the next election.

Furthermore, mere elections are not what define America's unique form of freedom. Today, practically every country in the world has elections, most of dubious validity. What most countries lack is a commitment on the part of their individual citizens to the concept of human rights, which cannot be legitimately abrogated by government.

For us, that concept took centuries of thought and conflicts to mature. It began at Runnymede when some barons presented a British king with demands that became known as the Magna Carta. It placed limits on the king's powers and defined certain rights not only for the aristocracy but for the common folk, too. And the barons were there with their swords to make sure the king understood that it was not negotiable.

A great deal of blood was shed and words written and spoken before the concept matured. Today it's found mainly in what in politically incorrect days were called the Anglo-Saxon countries – the United Kingdom, Canada, the United States, Australia and New Zealand. Our form of freedom is a gift from our English-speaking ancestors. In other parts of the world, government went off in different directions, even those we consider more or less free. But their concept of freedom is not the same as ours.

Ours is best summed up in the Declaration of Independence. All men are given unalienable rights by God. The sole purpose of government is to protect those rights. When a government instead abuses those rights, then the people have the right and the duty to overthrow it and create a new government.

Some Americans today are so stupid and/or ignorant of their country's history that if you asked them if people have the right to overthrow a government, they would reply in the negative. I had a professor who asked that question, and in a class of more than 30 students, only four of us said "Yes."

For God's sake, if you're going to claim to be an American, at least read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Federalist Papers. A good history of England and America certainly wouldn't hurt.

Our concepts of a free society are as foreign to the Arabs (and the rest of the non-Anglo-Saxon world) as Arabic and Chinese are to us. If Allah wills, they might evolve their own version of a more or less free society, but it will not be like ours. And they darn sure are not going to accept anything imposed on them at the point of a gun by "infidels."

George W. Bush is dead-wrong to believe he's been anointed by God to spread democracy. He was merely barely elected to serve the people of the United States in accordance with our Constitution. Even that appears to be more than he can handle. But if he tries to lead a crusade against the Muslim world, he will meet the same fate as the earlier Crusaders – defeat and disgrace.

August 26, 2008

Charley Reese [send him mail] has been a journalist for 49 years.

© 2008 by King Features Syndicate, Inc.

 

[akshaymalik84]

can these events be considered as democracy failure?

We take pride in defining moment in 1950 when, despite a recognition of the enormous challenges of knitting together a ‘nation’ out of a staggering diversity of communities, ethnicities, languages and disparities, we decided to take the bold political step by pledging India to be a sovereign, socialist, secular, and democratic republic.

But, what remains today of this pledge? Integral to democracy was the commitment to strive for social and economic justice. Any assessment of our democracy must start with an assessment of that commitment.

Here are some of the recent events which should reconcille with the reasons of democracy failure:

1.Can we call our country democratic when, in the past few years, there have been a hundred thousand farmer suicides — a hundred thousand families devastated? These figures, spread in small digits over time, have a numbing effect. The numbers hide the millions of others who live at the edge of survival, away from the gaze and concern of the growing middle classes.

2.What can we say about our democracy when the most predatory of hedge funds and finance institutions in the US and elsewhere are descending in India speculating in and capitalising on India’s land? Over 26 per cent of FDI in the past year has been in real estate. In the process, laws are being violated with impunity and entire chains of illegal deals are the norms.

3.Is it not a mark of failure when fertile agricultural lands are carved off into Special Economic Zones (SEZs) that further privilege the rich, give them tax-free shelters and greater opportunities to indulge in speculation in land and property?

4.Should we admit failure when the police or the army fire on democratic protests often in the presence of district collectors and senior members of ruling parties? Are the firings and repression in Nandigram and Kalinganagar scattered incidents or are they part of a pattern where ‘development flows from the barrel of a gun’?

 

[akshaymalik84]

can these events be considered as democracy failure?

5.Despite nine per cent growth, less than one per cent of the national budget goes towards public health spending? We have child malnourishment levels that are higher than sub-Saharan Africa.

6.Growth was meant to benefit all. Only select sectors have experienced rapid growth and only a few have benefited. Most governments have failed in democratising more equitable access to the processes and benefits of the market.

7.How democratic are we when corruption has been standardised, institutionalised and its scale is staggering. Routinely, you will hear of projects where 70-80 per cent of the money has been pocketed by a triumvirate of contractors, politicians and bureaucrats.

 

[akshaymalik84]

From whose vantage point should we assess our democracy?

There are many more events like above can be written here.But still it is important to acknowledge that there is much to be grateful for. Our constitutionally protected institutions—like the Election Commission and Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG)—have performed their roles with diligence. Democratic struggles have led to progressive State intervention creating small but crucially important gains for dalits, tribals and women.

There are countless efforts of people with conscience, those who care, resist, speak out. They are the keepers of sanity, the true defenders of our democracy. It is their hand and their spirit that must be strengthened.

A famous quote here:
Democracy requires citizens to stay alert, to open their eyes and their mouths—to understand that societies of sheep typically beget governments of wolves. It (democracy) facilitates criticism of power.
- John Keane, political philosopher

It is difficult to assess our democracy.
From whose vantage point do we assess our democracy? The minority that celebrates our ‘economic miracle’ and has found the means, both legitimate and devious, to enhance its comforts and privileges? Or the over 70 per cent who live on less than Rs 80 a day, some striving to improve their lives against grave odds and others living a life of poverty and humiliation?

 

[amritkharb]

sahe kaha hindustan mein sirf unn logoon ka raj hae jo strong haen, jinke connections haeen, pahuj hae. Jo paisa deke government ko influence karte haeen, jo apne bhai bhand ko aage pahuchaate haeen chaee woh nikamme hoon. Garib ka koi naheen. India mein log apni caste wallon ki madad karte haeen, jatton ka pata naheen.
North Indian vs south Indian, jat vs brahman, jat vs punjabi, bengali vs jat, madrassi vs marathi, hindustan mein yeh hae chalta hae. Apne ko sirf bhartiya samajne waale log na ke barabar haeen apne India mein.
apne phayade ke baar emein sochte haeen sab hindustani. Deshbhakti tho sirf dikhawa hae aisa lagta hae. Naare baazi karna deshbhakti nahe hota.

 

[raj2rif]

Interesting Topic!

Brahm...
JL par 100% literacy rate hai aur phir bhi.....
We will get our right to information, a say in the policy and governnace, executive, judiciary, administrative....but would we excercise it...do we even have the inclination to excercise it?
And democracy provides representation to everyone, including the jerks, who would have an equal say!!!!

Dear Members,
Excellent subject.
Regarding Education! Many of our political leaders do have college degrees, a high percentage of them also do have the criminal back ground. We have seen the officials in the government organization taking bribes and doing all kinds of favors. So, while I fully agree that education is the key factor, but that may not be the only factor. We can give different names to the democracy that we want to follow, but each name comes with a restriction that may dilute the definition of democracy itself. I remember we had talked about "Directed Democracy" of which I myself have been a good supporter, but then it also dilutes the rights of the people.
It is an interesting subject, and we as good citizens have to keep thinking the ways and means to do something for our motherland where we can say with pride that we value the human beings, and we do love our nation to the core of our heart.

 

[brahmtewatia]

Backdrop/Revival to the ensuing discussion : True Democracy.

Since our polity is borrowed from various counteries. It is not ours as in nature.Just curious if anyone can come forward to let me or us know about Indigenous system of governance. We are trying to mold ourselves according to alien governance.

One basic point, I would like to make here is our much hyped diversity. Counteries mentioned in Mr Arvind's write-up have uniformity of Religion/belief/color/race. Where as India is as diverse as nature. At this point implementation of democracy turns in to a tough nightmare. Above mentioned counteries have been doing this for centuaries and people are accustomed to it for generations now. They are conditioned to it. While India's independence is just one generation.

an Empowered Democracy could be a better option for governance.

As far as the comparison is concerned, if a good comparison is done, many things can be learnt from that. As rightly said by Samar, Indian democracy is a brain child of western democratic model which was adopted without any change in Indian conditions which are entirely different from the west.

while appreciateing the viewpoints of all the worthy members (very well said from their perspectives) i offer my apologies for my delayed participation on the subject. lets see, if i can revive the discussion any further...

i respectfully wud like to disagree (to some extent) with samar (and jakhar ji, seconding samar's opinion) when he/they say tht the “working democracy of some of the abv quoted countries is far ahead than of us”… also when he says tht “modern form of democracy is the brain-child of west wch has been implemented in west much before than our country” >>> It is true tht our democracy has the reflection of west and YES it is also true tht ours is a young democracy. at the same time it may also be noted tht the seeds of our democracy nd the practice of public reasoning, are deeply embedded in indian history nd tradition for a very long time. it’s a different matter altogether tht the achievements at present in india are still far short of those ideals.

the real indian independent state was born on January 26, 1950, the day our constitution was implemented... wch happens to be the dream codified by those who had fought the war of independence, sacrificed everything to wrest control frm the colonial britain. they had a dream of an India where everybody irrespective of his/her social nd economic status is equal, a state where everybody could live in tranquility. where there is guarantee to their lives, earnings nd fair distribution of the wealth generated... all in all, a country free from any prejudice and devoid of elitism. keeping in limelight these envisaged ideals, i have all the reasons to concur with sumit nd aman, in one of his/their posts when they say...

1. [quote : sumit dahiya]
Many people live under the disillusion that the partition of India was the final kiss of death by the British to our people. Wrong! I think a democratic form of Government was the final kiss of death by the British Raj to our people]
[unquote].

2. [quote : aman hooda]
India has been ruled after independence for the most part by the Ghandi family. One family ruling such a vast country for the most part!. Congress had to call up Sonia Ghandi (an italian) to lead Congress in order to win elections! Ghandi name wins elections! What percentage of MP, MLA's, ruling classes have their children fighting for the country? They live in luxury, protected, they can buy off justice, get plum jobs, get their children into excellent colleges based on influence, drive BMW's(like another member said on tax payers rupaiyaa), add to their swiss bank balance]
[unquote].

among the various countries mentioned [and picking my answer to samar's remarks - marked red] i see mention of brazil as well. it may be noted tht brazil is also nd almost equally as diversified as india, with ppl of different groups, color, races nd different ethnicities. samar cannot equate that vis-a-vis india. however, i do agree with him when he says… “Empowered Democracy could be a better option for governance”.

p.s. : my few cents to follow...

this thread must not go into JL archives w/o any further discussion(s). wud like to invite more views frm worthy fellow members. folks have time to contibute on another one liner 'democracy' thread... but why not here.

 

[brahmtewatia]

EDUCATION... thts the only thing tht can see india through. you can give 1000's of suggestions, all in vain. education will control the population... A MUST !!!
so many things, then will be so easy to achieve nd will get streamlined on its own.

I agree with Brahm Ji partially that we need education but we need "Awareness" also with education, we need a sense of responsibility in our citizens.

taking the discussion further...

sitaram ji, awareness is just a by-product of education… it is bound to follow. at the same time, i 100% concur with you, when you say >>> "इस देश को सब से बड़ा खतरा पढ़े-लिखे निष्क्रिय लोगों से ही है."

mindset

now comes the mindset... nd tht is what is missing in educated indian folks. it seems tht we are too much overwhelmed nd preoccupied with phrases like “chalta hai” “so what” haade tae nu-ae chaale”. this mindset doesn’t seem to change ! why ? cos of one simple reason… majority of we indians are illiterate nd quiet a big majority of literates are even worse than illiterates, so what if I stand apart frm the croud… it hardly matters, sab chalta hai !!!

it is utmost important for us to realize the role nd importance of public reasoning (as discussed abv) in approaching the issues of democracy, secularism nd social justice in contemporary india… cos the “ideal democracy” if at all it exists… is integrally linked with public reasoning. going further, i wud like to define 3 essential features of public reasoning (wch might be a further elaboration, to what has been said before)…

1). public reasoning involves respect for pluralism nd an attitude of tolerance for different points of view nd lifestyles. (if tht is ignored, repercussions are bound to happen <<< this is said in different context, vis-a-vis my pre-occupied notions)
2). public reasoning demands an open public discussion of issues of common concern.
3). public reasoning shud encourage political commitment nd participation of people in public action for the transformation of society.

all this, in my opinion can only be achieved through education nd only education. improvement in our education system has to be done on war-footing basis, nd for tht matter we need to start from scratch. we are suffering not because we are plagued by so many problems due to so many people who were supposed to work towards the emancipation of those who have elected them, but because we have chosen to ignore our problems. we’ve chosen to resist change when it comes to removing non performing politicians and/or bureaucrats, our unrealistic attitude nd complacency.

democracy for all practical purposes is dead in india. the democratic principle on which indian polity was supposed to stand has been replaced by a system aptly explained by the term “democracy” or call it a “monarchy” to a large extent… as there seems to be no accountability whether we talk of our politicians or we ourselves as common citizens. our govt is something like, a group of people who will go all out to get the key to our treasury, nd they are not answerable to any one. indeed the soul of the nation has been robbed and we have done nothing to free ourselves from the hypnotic spell… my optimism on this matter is on a downslide, as i don’t see any hope, or at least in not to far distant future.