Jitender, we must give the devil his due. I find some substance in Arvind's remarks about democracy. He is right to the extent that people do not get right choice. I have witnessed it at least in my own constituency. A candidate is imposed upon the electorate in the name of Clan/Gotra and people in the community are misguided to vote for him. Some innocent people fall prey to it. But in my opinion, voters are bigger culprits. In certain constituencies, candidates belonging to a certain khap/dynasty continue to win successively inspite of their dismal record and charges of corruption and nepotism, passing on the mantle to their coming generations. Meritorious and deserving candidates are forced out of the race by this narrow vision of voters.
Walking with Comrades
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Jitender, we must give the devil his due. I find some substance in Arvind's remarks about democracy. He is right to the extent that people do not get right choice. I have witnessed it at least in my own constituency. A candidate is imposed upon the electorate in the name of Clan/Gotra and people in the community are misguided to vote for him. Some innocent people fall prey to it. But in my opinion, voters are bigger culprits. In certain constituencies, candidates belonging to a certain khap/dynasty continue to win successively inspite of their dismal record and charges of corruption and nepotism, passing on the mantle to their coming generations. Meritorious and deserving candidates are forced out of the race by this narrow vision of voters.
jitender.singh
New member
Vipin, I am just trying to interpret the two posts together. You seem to be suggesting that it is a social problem, which has come into the prominance due to ignorance of some specific sections of society. I am ready to agree to that provided the movement was lead by tribal leaders. I am ready to agree to that provided they had worked to social, educational or economic development of the tribals. I am ready to agree had they only been opposing suppressing state departments.
What I find is that their agenda is decided in Delhi and Kolkata, by the people who visit tribal area only for a paid holiday. They are lead by people who are from well to do families or from educated middle class families. I see no tribal leader in their top leadership. They have been dominating those area for years now, and still they are socially, educationally and economically backwards. They not only kill the paramilitary forces (so called suppressors), but they also kill government teachers, and social workers who don't sell their agenda.
Now you can decide if Naxalism is a fight of communism vs democracy or a social problem. Atleast for me its a law and order problem caused by people with propaganda to make our democratic system weaker and weaker.
You know why these areas have the problem. Not because government does not want to build infrastructure, but to survive the Naxal leaders dont want the development reach these places. They have created an anarchical system, where only might is right and anybody can take advantage of being strong. Its not that the neglect has caused these area to become weaker and weaker, but the anarchy caused by Naxals has lead them into a hole.
Had government not willing to spend on infrastructure, it would not have done so in other areas as well. Why is that only the Naxal affected areas are lackin in development? The plain reason for me is that the anarchy has caused people from going and working there. That means disconnect from the mainstream.
So you agree that the government is willing to tackle the social issues. What about the Naxals? They seem to be provoking a sovereign country with their useless demands.
So, you mean that these 200 districts are the most advanced districts in India, since they are rules by Naxals by people's wish. Why are you staying in the underdeveloped suppressive India? If they actually rule with people's consent in one third of India, why don't they just go ahead and get their people elected in Parliament?
I am nut sure what is driving you to find such fascinating facts, which I can only treat as your communist fantasy. This is the way communists have been working all over. The top leadership will befool their subordinates in such a way that they think that the only thing their superiors can do is to benefit them. Instead, they make their fortunes, and run away with all the prize. Stalin did the same to Russia, Kim is doing the same in South Korea, Castro is doing the same in Cuba, Chavez is doing in Venezuela. None of them made their people stronger, none of them made their nations stronger. They were/are all individual fanatics, who worked for power, money and autocracy.
Then why don't you think that we can work to make the existing system better without voilence, by better participation in democracy, by voting for better people, by working honestly.
Do you think that every time you have flu and cold you should take medicince for curing the weak immune system.
I agree that if we have identified that the immune system is weak, then we need to cure the weak immune system, but the flu and cold also need to be taken care of. Right .. ?
jitender.singh
New member
This is a debate and I don't think anybody expect a courtsey or token respect for his age (correct me VP, if you think otherwise), we would be better like to be rated for word we write.
I am really surprised that you did not ordered murder of all these villagers, since they did not revolted against a democratic state for your Communist state. I apologize to offend you, but I treat them far better human beings than your intelligent thinktank people, who plan to murder innocent human being. Its always easy to beat up a weaker person and snatch his meal, than to give your share of food to him.
I think nobody objects to reading any literature (people even read porn!!!), however the problem starts, when you read a maniac's theory and try to apply it at a place where everybody suffers.
Nobody minds a dog when it barks (its nature is to bark), but everybody will beat it up if it tries to attack and bite.
I did not expect that a person who has thorough knowledge of Mao's literature, does not even know what a Quack is!!!
jitender.singh
New member
VP, there can't be any system that is perfect for billion people. However, considering the democratic system, we all have equal rights to vote, if we vote a wrong person to represent us than we are to blame and not the system. That is my only argument and you seem to be agreeing to it.
Coming to the specific case you mentioned, I know that right now there are a lot of such cases, but who is to blame, candidate/ voter/ or system? I have always blamed the voter because it is the voter who plays the last shot, and if he plays his shot wrong, he will suffer.
I have always stated that such things are reflection of our social and moral values. I still remember, when I was younger, people would not accept that they have bribed for a job, even if whole village knew about that. What is the state right now? People boast of their contacts and getting a givernment job by bribe. This summarizes the level of morality our society is at right now.
You are not a judge to decide as to who is more knowledgeable and who has less knowledge of reality. Knowledge is infinite and is a relative concept. Everyone has different perceptions of reality and different level of knowledge. I have never proclaimed to be a very knowledgeable person and may not be as qualified as you are to define "reality". Others may be having the same opinion about you as well.
I do not expect any discount on your offer of respect merely by virtue of being elder. Age is just a digit and I do not consider myself in the category of "Bujurg" as yet. I am still quite young, active, energetic and full of life as all the senses are working fine so far. Situation demanding, I can be more sarcastic, naughty and nasty than you. I do not deserve any clemency. Hence do not shower any concession or your pseudo-respect mererly because of age.
I do not know why the example of my village has irked you.
Hope you must have found the definition of quack by now.
Bhai Jitender,
Again give me some time to go through your posts. Till than let me clear once again a few points (once again):
1. Where did I say I preach or follow Mao?
2. Go through my last posts again to see how horrible is the situation there. They are scared of even CPRF and police as in the past drunk police had raped even their woman. But again you don’t have to agree to this.
3. One one hand there are corrupt Govt officials and on the other hand there are Naxalis who give them food and kill corrupt officials. As I said there are bad people everywhere in both camps. But they believe Naxalis more than the GOVT. Just think for a sec why naxalis enjoy such a wide support. They have little idea of these philosophies as you have. When the survival is at stake you don’t have time to read communism or capitalism. ( I am repeating my self again and again)
4. Naxalism is not the root cause. It’s the off-spring of this social problem. Govt should tackle this social problem if they have to get rid of Moasist. Maosim will go itself otherwise it will come back again and again. Now if u say we should change the system?? Well Yes but it will take ages like this. And we don’t have that much time because if these frustrated people join hands with 'terrorist" or if they join 'seperatist' policies God knows what would happen ! Instead the need is to raise voice against corruption and force the Govt to work on this. After all its democracy. Isnt It? The main problem is the corrupt Govt Officials and its undecisive and discriminatory policies. Now we all know about this problem because of the violence but this problem was there before I was born and how come Govt didn’t see it??
Again I didn’t preach Mao's communism. Socialism is little bit different than Moa's communism and we already have socialistic policies in India, in other words we are already following socialism to an extent……….
Some time post is meant to be read completely in full. Every time a dissection is not required. What I said is this is a report(not prepared by me) and by this it can be understood why these people enjoy wide support. Now could you tell me why Govt doesn’t enjoy such support??
I know you will say they are brainwashed ! Why cant Govt brainwash them??
By this I am hoping that I have answered all your concern please don’t ask same question again. You are a political man and enjoys the company of top leaders but I don’t always look at things politically.
What I meant is why horses cant fly like our mind do??
Again give me some time to go through your posts. Till than let me clear once again a few points (once again):
1. Where did I say I preach or follow Mao?
2. Go through my last posts again to see how horrible is the situation there. They are scared of even CPRF and police as in the past drunk police had raped even their woman. But again you don’t have to agree to this.
3. One one hand there are corrupt Govt officials and on the other hand there are Naxalis who give them food and kill corrupt officials. As I said there are bad people everywhere in both camps. But they believe Naxalis more than the GOVT. Just think for a sec why naxalis enjoy such a wide support. They have little idea of these philosophies as you have. When the survival is at stake you don’t have time to read communism or capitalism. ( I am repeating my self again and again)
4. Naxalism is not the root cause. It’s the off-spring of this social problem. Govt should tackle this social problem if they have to get rid of Moasist. Maosim will go itself otherwise it will come back again and again. Now if u say we should change the system?? Well Yes but it will take ages like this. And we don’t have that much time because if these frustrated people join hands with 'terrorist" or if they join 'seperatist' policies God knows what would happen ! Instead the need is to raise voice against corruption and force the Govt to work on this. After all its democracy. Isnt It? The main problem is the corrupt Govt Officials and its undecisive and discriminatory policies. Now we all know about this problem because of the violence but this problem was there before I was born and how come Govt didn’t see it??
Again I didn’t preach Mao's communism. Socialism is little bit different than Moa's communism and we already have socialistic policies in India, in other words we are already following socialism to an extent……….
Some time post is meant to be read completely in full. Every time a dissection is not required. What I said is this is a report(not prepared by me) and by this it can be understood why these people enjoy wide support. Now could you tell me why Govt doesn’t enjoy such support??
I know you will say they are brainwashed ! Why cant Govt brainwash them??
By this I am hoping that I have answered all your concern please don’t ask same question again. You are a political man and enjoys the company of top leaders but I don’t always look at things politically.
What I meant is why horses cant fly like our mind do??
Apologies !!!!
Everyone have their own opinion about others. What made me pass that remark is ur comparison of ur villagers to that of Adivasis. I called you elder not 'bujurg'. But again Apologies!!
I never asked apologies. Sharminda mat karo bhai. I agree with you the conditions in my village are not as pathetic as in Adivasi area but still it lacks so many basic facilities and it was just an example to disapprove violent methods and a rebellion against a democratically elected government which represents sentiments of majority of electorate.
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yes, Jitender I agree with you. I think education is the only instrument which can bring some change in the present mindset. Therefore, the process of educational reforms and improvement in standards needs to be accelerated.
brahmtewatia
Active member
who will do that ?
a voter ?... or a "farishta" descending from heavenly abode ?
Well, there may have been ample correption in the Marxist system you had seen in the countries you mentioned, however, neither that has anything to do with the plight of adivasis and the genoside attempt by the government, nor the assets of the "democratically" elected people any lesser then what you have described.
Can you tell me why the adivasis took shelter of the Moists (assuming for a moment that these the Moists were outsiders) and not the so called "democratic" government? Remember people in general are not fool. The oppression of the adivasis had been real and the resons behind taking the arms are geniune.
Do the adivasis didn't knew that they would be bound to face armed reaction? In all probability they knew. Still they choose that path. Why?
No one likes voilence, it is either ordered (like the goverment) or is forced upon.
The whole issue is that the government is not bothered about the adivasis. They just want to mint money by exploiting the resources undernith the adivasis land. There are many real greedy people behind who are trying to legtimise this genoside attaempt by the goverment. If they can't remove them from that land, then they kill them.
PS: I do not share any patronage with CPM or any political party, as of today.
vpsingh;244215[B said:
Obviously! How can the government do any development in a remote forest area when they could not do much in a place with civilized people and having faith in democracy?
Why are people dying of hunger in areas (parts of Orissa) where there are no armed "rebellion"?
When either the doctor is not available or is too costly (life thretning), then the next better option for people is a quack.
shailendra
New member
It seems that the best policy of any group, individuals and agenda bearers is to bash government when there is no other scapegoat in sight… State bashing is the favorite pastime of most folks, especially us Indians when the last thing we want to do is accept that charity starts from home, and if the answer to all problems was armed rebellion, our cities would have names probably like Kandahar, Beirut, or even Baghdad etc.
While one can obviously see no pseudo-intellectuals here themselves writing bravely from the shelter of some backwater adivasi infested hutment with life-threatening bullets whizzing overhead as they try to provoke a debate on some exaggerated rhetoric, it is I guess also easy to see why people like that thrive like treacherous maggots within the vast motherland; jis thaali mein khaana usi mein chaed (ya thooka) karna is the oft used mantra for mostly any frustrated brigands and the lazy, disillusioned and misled folks…
Just like I would be completely non-interested to entertain the ideas to condone some antinational citizenry uprising in Kashmir against the Army and state (immediately after they have themselves for example effectively displaced Kashimir Pandits in the region); I have no sympathy at all for such other similar uprisings in any other part of the nation where (Indians) are content to wipe out their own country’s security forces at the behest of some grandeur notions of gaining some instant statehood and recognition for all their such troubles!
While one can obviously see no pseudo-intellectuals here themselves writing bravely from the shelter of some backwater adivasi infested hutment with life-threatening bullets whizzing overhead as they try to provoke a debate on some exaggerated rhetoric, it is I guess also easy to see why people like that thrive like treacherous maggots within the vast motherland; jis thaali mein khaana usi mein chaed (ya thooka) karna is the oft used mantra for mostly any frustrated brigands and the lazy, disillusioned and misled folks…
Just like I would be completely non-interested to entertain the ideas to condone some antinational citizenry uprising in Kashmir against the Army and state (immediately after they have themselves for example effectively displaced Kashimir Pandits in the region); I have no sympathy at all for such other similar uprisings in any other part of the nation where (Indians) are content to wipe out their own country’s security forces at the behest of some grandeur notions of gaining some instant statehood and recognition for all their such troubles!
So what you say is that if a person is oppressed, then he himself is to be blamed. A reasoning usually given to keep the poor a poor.
Tomorrow, if someone slaps you, then would you slap yourself once more? Because as per your logic, slapping by someone is a reflection of his social and moral values and since you are part of the society that builds these values, so you are to blame yourself only.
अगर अधि थाली मैं जंग लग चूका हो तो बाकी अधि थाली को बचा लेना चाहिए! लेकिन बचा तभी पाओगे जब यह पता लगा सकोगे की थाली मैं जंग लगा कसे!
Let us assume that one day someone like you is a part of this uprising. Then could you tell us all possible circumstances that could have led to this? Have you ever pondered on what led to this disease and why is this spreading? It is important to know this, least tomorrow; we also get infected by it.
Two observations. Whenever there is a talk of naxal terrorism, some people cleverly insert "tribals aur unki durdasha" and portray naxal terrorists as tree swinging robin hoods. This is one point i would like to address and my target are the falsehoods and assumptions peddled not the people behind them. Rather than repeating ad nauseum the catch phrases provided by naxal supporters, let us check the facts.As have already written, the poor or in this case, the tribals will always be spoken for in a patronizing way, the naxal terrorists will never let the tribals have a voice of their own. One can check the representation of terrorist leaders in the Chattisgarh state who mostly are either from Andhra, Bengal or Bihar.
Now in naxal terrorism plagued Chattisgarh - the tribals have grievances but hate the naxalites so much that they are fighting them. An obvious question comes to mind - if naxal terrorists are allegedly fighting for tribals, why are tribals fighting and resisting these naxal terrorists aka so called "messiahs of downtrodden"? The tribals formed "Salwa Judum", armed themselves and are fighting the scourge of communist terror. "A spontaneous revolt of the tribals against years of atrocities and harassment suffered by them at the hands of Naxalites," so said the Supreme Court-appointed National Human Rights Committee investigation on Salwa Judum. Believe it or not, there are people like Arundhati Suzanne Roy who wants Salwa Judum tribals to disarm and Salwa Judum be disbanded ASAP. Hijacking and co-opting genuine local grievances for their own terror campaign is an old communist propaganda technique. Side question is, why do left wing terrorists do that? To insulate one from the criticism. As soon as the word tribal is inserted, many become defensive in their response.
Second, we have to recognize the alternative and the ground reality. As a few commenters have already stated merits and demerits of the present system - democracy, we have to look at what the other party(naxal terrorists) has to offer? Dictatorship.
We were sexually exploited by comrades: Maoist women
Now in naxal terrorism plagued Chattisgarh - the tribals have grievances but hate the naxalites so much that they are fighting them. An obvious question comes to mind - if naxal terrorists are allegedly fighting for tribals, why are tribals fighting and resisting these naxal terrorists aka so called "messiahs of downtrodden"? The tribals formed "Salwa Judum", armed themselves and are fighting the scourge of communist terror. "A spontaneous revolt of the tribals against years of atrocities and harassment suffered by them at the hands of Naxalites," so said the Supreme Court-appointed National Human Rights Committee investigation on Salwa Judum. Believe it or not, there are people like Arundhati Suzanne Roy who wants Salwa Judum tribals to disarm and Salwa Judum be disbanded ASAP. Hijacking and co-opting genuine local grievances for their own terror campaign is an old communist propaganda technique. Side question is, why do left wing terrorists do that? To insulate one from the criticism. As soon as the word tribal is inserted, many become defensive in their response.
Second, we have to recognize the alternative and the ground reality. As a few commenters have already stated merits and demerits of the present system - democracy, we have to look at what the other party(naxal terrorists) has to offer? Dictatorship.
We were sexually exploited by comrades: Maoist women
Quoting a poster above,
Let us crosscheck the facts - how many schools, hospitals or roads have been built by naxals in these specific areas held by them for "people in these places support them in a majority and believe in them"? Zero. Aadmi se ke ghamchakkar yo naxal when their areas are devoid of facilities, who are they to preach others about development? Another startling thing, zero respect for human rights of an individual and people are bullied by showing them the gun. News for you, there is no bigger bully than our govt and if little wannabe bully(naxal terrorists) challenges the bigger bully(govt), chances are high that the little bully, sooner or later, will get a dose of its own medicine. Why all this whining when you know "Those who live by the smaller gun get shot by those who have bigger guns (and helicopters)."
Referance Arvind's Post 77- parawise reply
The same system (moribund communism or dictatorship of the proletariat) which was prevalent in the countries I visited is being advocated by the so called emancipators of Adivasis. The narration was therefore, relevant. Do you think killing of 76 poor CRPF Jawan was not genocide committed by the so called liberators.
Adivasis are being held ransom on gunpoint. That is why they had to raise groups like “Salwa Judum” to defend themselves from the onslaughts by militants.
They(Adivasis) never chose the path of their volition. It has been thrust upon them at gun point.
I do not know much about the historical reasons, but at the moment government is desperate to do something concrete to free the Adivasis from the clutches of militant groups who get support from our enemies like China. These rebels are not letting the government to do something worthwhile.
Democratic process is the best tool for Adivasis and for every citizen. Sooner or later, they will have to join the mainstream politics if they want to achieve something. They have a right to send their representative to Parliament or Assembly who can raise their issues. If their demands are not met by government, they can highlight the issue by peaceful demonstrations and even have the option to replace the MP/MLA in next elections with some one from among themselves.
When the countries is facing threat from two deadly enemies at two different and strategic fronts, such kind of rebellion is even bigger threat to national security and amounts to treason. Do you think government should keep mum to enable them to carve out a nation within a nation for facilitating China to make it base for attacking Delhi. Do you suggest a replica of Afghanistan where drug and war lords are controlling different areas of that war ravaged and ruined country.
The same system (moribund communism or dictatorship of the proletariat) which was prevalent in the countries I visited is being advocated by the so called emancipators of Adivasis. The narration was therefore, relevant. Do you think killing of 76 poor CRPF Jawan was not genocide committed by the so called liberators.
Adivasis are being held ransom on gunpoint. That is why they had to raise groups like “Salwa Judum” to defend themselves from the onslaughts by militants.
They(Adivasis) never chose the path of their volition. It has been thrust upon them at gun point.
I do not know much about the historical reasons, but at the moment government is desperate to do something concrete to free the Adivasis from the clutches of militant groups who get support from our enemies like China. These rebels are not letting the government to do something worthwhile.
Democratic process is the best tool for Adivasis and for every citizen. Sooner or later, they will have to join the mainstream politics if they want to achieve something. They have a right to send their representative to Parliament or Assembly who can raise their issues. If their demands are not met by government, they can highlight the issue by peaceful demonstrations and even have the option to replace the MP/MLA in next elections with some one from among themselves.
When the countries is facing threat from two deadly enemies at two different and strategic fronts, such kind of rebellion is even bigger threat to national security and amounts to treason. Do you think government should keep mum to enable them to carve out a nation within a nation for facilitating China to make it base for attacking Delhi. Do you suggest a replica of Afghanistan where drug and war lords are controlling different areas of that war ravaged and ruined country.
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shailendra
New member
Tickle the funny bone...
...and then maybe read between the lines too...!
The discussion probably needed a humorous twist; so I decided to give it some quick shots...enjoy!!!
...and then maybe read between the lines too...!
The discussion probably needed a humorous twist; so I decided to give it some quick shots...enjoy!!!