who are the best
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sonam
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From what Mukesh wrote, I feel that the main issue is about the rapant unemployment prevalent in India and not about which sex is better in the workforce. And when the choices are limited the age old societal beliefs come into picture. Who should be the sacrificial lamb, of course the weaker sex. Let me tell you relegating the women back to the home will not solve any problem this country is facing. There will always be not so needy people trying to take advantage of the situations. What India needs is a sense of morality and of course population control.
ramksehrawat
New member
It is seen that almost all threads, with more than 10-20 posts, lose its path way and end up somewhere else, especially in bickerings. Let us make sincere efforts to avoid such things. Let us show understanding to each other's thoughts and ideas. If only one particular thought was right, I think there was no need for the Almighty to create more than six billion human brains. If someone expresses his views, it is not binding on others to accept it, I think we can always ignore things which we don't agree with. Don't you all agree that if at all we wish to counter the views expressed by others, the language we use should be temperate and free from personal attacks. Ek bar ek rog laga tha, woh yaad aa gaya, usi se aap ko bore karta hun :
Sambhal ke chal musafir bahut andhera hai,
kabhi kabhar hi bus kuchh jugnu timtimate hain.
Sambhal ke chal musafir bahut andhera hai,
kabhi kabhar hi bus kuchh jugnu timtimate hain.
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Dear Sonam Ji,
Very well pointed out. That is exactly what Mukesh's question was. I totally agree with you that we should not confine women to the home again as was done in past. Unemployement is a global problem, may be in less percentage in different geographical regions. Whether girl or boy, the best should get the job. That is the only way which will motivate people to work hard. Off course the questions will be raised about the system, referrals, bribes and job manipulations. These are the flaws in the system and not related to whether the person is a boy or girl.
Very well pointed out. That is exactly what Mukesh's question was. I totally agree with you that we should not confine women to the home again as was done in past. Unemployement is a global problem, may be in less percentage in different geographical regions. Whether girl or boy, the best should get the job. That is the only way which will motivate people to work hard. Off course the questions will be raised about the system, referrals, bribes and job manipulations. These are the flaws in the system and not related to whether the person is a boy or girl.
sonam said:
Here are some of my thoughts.
The notion that gender bias in opportunitites and so forth that is prevelent among conservative societies like India (for whatever reason, conservativeness imply women's supression), results in underperformance of women in their contribution to the socity,
does not seem true to me. ( small part of the story)
For example, you might like to check what fraction of tenure track faculty in USA are women, or for that matter in Europe.
What fraction of CEO's, CFO's, GM's in corporate America are women?
Check out politics!
So we should ask:
Are american keeping, their women locked at home? or not sending their doughters to college?
That's not true.
So there got to be other reasons, if women and men are equal (say minus physical strenth wise.. that's why I did not count armed forces etc)
For example, teen pragnancy, which I would like to says results due to too much freedom to women, screw up their possibilities
So to say that if Indians (or Jat's) give up their social and family structure which, quote and quote give more freedom, to women (and to men also infact say boys)...... would do it.. is not all there is to it.
The notion that gender bias in opportunitites and so forth that is prevelent among conservative societies like India (for whatever reason, conservativeness imply women's supression), results in underperformance of women in their contribution to the socity,
does not seem true to me. ( small part of the story)
For example, you might like to check what fraction of tenure track faculty in USA are women, or for that matter in Europe.
What fraction of CEO's, CFO's, GM's in corporate America are women?
Check out politics!
So we should ask:
Are american keeping, their women locked at home? or not sending their doughters to college?
That's not true.
So there got to be other reasons, if women and men are equal (say minus physical strenth wise.. that's why I did not count armed forces etc)
For example, teen pragnancy, which I would like to says results due to too much freedom to women, screw up their possibilities
So to say that if Indians (or Jat's) give up their social and family structure which, quote and quote give more freedom, to women (and to men also infact say boys)...... would do it.. is not all there is to it.
S
sonam
Guest
While talking of conservative societies, if we reflect upon the rural jat families some years ago, women used to work hard along with their husbands in the fields as well as work in the houses and get the minimum in terms of nourishment. Whatever left over after filling up the stomach of their men was considered theirs. And dont think that teenagers never used to fool around that time. Even if women are working nowadays it is only when their men want them to earn a few extra bucks. it is still difficult for a women to progress without the support and protection of some men behind them.
navingulia
New member
anybody
anybody who can prove himself/herself best is best.
Being a girl or a boy doesnt matter.
anybody who can prove himself/herself best is best.
Being a girl or a boy doesnt matter.
Dear Rajendra Ji,
Thanks a lot, for once I found you to be in agreement with some one, even your earlier posts have said otherwise.
I agree with you, failed people do tend to blame others. I however still believe that opportunities to the female sex in India were very little during the past and are still less than the men even now when you see the entire nation and not just the urban areas or only the educated families.
We do need to consider to give more opportunites to women.
Thanks a lot, for once I found you to be in agreement with some one, even your earlier posts have said otherwise.
I agree with you, failed people do tend to blame others. I however still believe that opportunities to the female sex in India were very little during the past and are still less than the men even now when you see the entire nation and not just the urban areas or only the educated families.
We do need to consider to give more opportunites to women.
rkumar said:
raj2rif said:
Dear Tavathia Sahab,
Depends upon what one calls to be the opportunities. Most women prefer sitting at home and taking care of childern. May be this is how they contribute the most towards nation building. By their nature, boys tends to be outgoing as compared to girls. Just to add some extra heat into this debate I am quoting the words of our leading lady member, Sujata ji from another thread (Divided Nation) ;
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Rajendraji:
"In character, in manner, in style, in all things, the supreme excellence is simplicity." (Henry Wadsworth Longfellow)
I do not aspire to be anything more or anything less. I am who I am. If anything, I would much prefer being a humble servant to leading, for there are important statesmen and politicians to lead. Just for your information though, of one thing I am certain - I can confidently lead my two children, of whom I have the primary responsibility to raise as model citizens. That is more than I can afford to dream. Your gesture is very humble - unfortunately I do not mix objectivity and fantasy, for they are mutually exclusive!
....................................................................................
Hope this sums up how ladies in general think about...Given the choice, most will love just taking care of their childern and thereby contributing to society. If this is taken as their contribution, they certinly outperform the men..as its they who are responsible towards the success of each child, be it male or female..
Rajendra
Dear Rajendra Ji,
Thanks for your post and taking out a quote from Sujata Ji's post. Well hope calling her "Leading Lady" is not a kind of sarcasm?
Now the question of opportunity. Women have been traditionally taking care of children (male/female) because they give birth to them. Yes, they do contribute more than men in nation building because they teach all men or women, successful or failed. Why then men did not take care of children? Probably, because in old ages, only thing available to feed a child was mother's milk, men did not have any thing to offer to them, while women did. Probably, that is why child is generally more close to mother than to father. May be that resulted in tradition, as the children needed frequent attention, and the lady could not afford to be out of house for a longer duration. Today with baby sitters and pre school institutions coming up, more and more mothers can go out and work. That is a good sign.
Now, as you tried to point out by Sujata Ji's post, that women themselves are responsible for the lack of opportunities, as they tend to be contended to stay at home to take care of children. I really don't agree with you on this issue. If taking care of children is because of choice, then yes. But there are too many women who do not have children and still don't get opportunities as do the men get. Consider in our own community in old days, when the girl was not sent to school while boys were. Those little girls did not have children and did not stay home by choice. I guess, I have made my point about the lack of opportunities to girls as compared to boys, in past as well as to some extent in present. When we are talking about a particular sex, we are talking with law of large numbers in mind. What does the majority of them get? It is not the question of a women being in India, US, UK or in any other country. The society traditionally in most part of the world had been male dominated and this could be the reason of men's inability to take care of children as well as the women do. Hence women's less exposure to the outside world. Women's physical weakness as compared to men may be another reason for that.
The good news is, the things are changing and I we may be seeing more women at top posts as compared to past.
Thanks for your post and taking out a quote from Sujata Ji's post. Well hope calling her "Leading Lady" is not a kind of sarcasm?
Now the question of opportunity. Women have been traditionally taking care of children (male/female) because they give birth to them. Yes, they do contribute more than men in nation building because they teach all men or women, successful or failed. Why then men did not take care of children? Probably, because in old ages, only thing available to feed a child was mother's milk, men did not have any thing to offer to them, while women did. Probably, that is why child is generally more close to mother than to father. May be that resulted in tradition, as the children needed frequent attention, and the lady could not afford to be out of house for a longer duration. Today with baby sitters and pre school institutions coming up, more and more mothers can go out and work. That is a good sign.
Now, as you tried to point out by Sujata Ji's post, that women themselves are responsible for the lack of opportunities, as they tend to be contended to stay at home to take care of children. I really don't agree with you on this issue. If taking care of children is because of choice, then yes. But there are too many women who do not have children and still don't get opportunities as do the men get. Consider in our own community in old days, when the girl was not sent to school while boys were. Those little girls did not have children and did not stay home by choice. I guess, I have made my point about the lack of opportunities to girls as compared to boys, in past as well as to some extent in present. When we are talking about a particular sex, we are talking with law of large numbers in mind. What does the majority of them get? It is not the question of a women being in India, US, UK or in any other country. The society traditionally in most part of the world had been male dominated and this could be the reason of men's inability to take care of children as well as the women do. Hence women's less exposure to the outside world. Women's physical weakness as compared to men may be another reason for that.
The good news is, the things are changing and I we may be seeing more women at top posts as compared to past.
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raj2rif said:
What would one expect of a family with limited resources ? Spend its limited resources on a boy who will stay back or on a girl who will get married and will join someone else ? What to talk of girls, in olden days there were not enough resources to pay for the education of even all male childern. Most of the time it was only one male child in family who could be sent to the school. Ofcourse now things have changed. There is more affluence and with one or two offsprings one can afford to educate them all. I agree, things are changing. May be in few decades we will see more and more girls in every profession in India. How far one will be able to excell, will be purely an individual issue..Let us see how numbers change with time...Personally I still feel that the boys will maintain the lead, just not because of the opportunities, but because of their overall attitude also.
Rajendra
S
sonam
Guest
Dear Tavathia sahab,
I am glad to hear that there are some men who are broadminded about these issues and not scared of competition from women. I wish there were more people like you in our community who were ready to accept women as leaders. But alas they feel threatened.
Rajendraji,
Coming to your statements that women themselves do not want to come up and do well. There may be some truth in that point but what i feel is that if a person has been dependent and has not learned to face the world from the very beginning will be scared in an outside world to fetch for themselves. It would seem more comfortable to continue like this. But dont think that they really want this. it is the mental bondage which holds them back. And this is what happens to women in India. You ask any comfortable housekeeper, you will find a deep desire to be independent because no human being wants to feel like a burden to the society and they find solace in the fact that they are raising kids.
You feel that a women gets married and goes to the other house so why waste resources on her as she will be of no use to the parents after that. And in her in laws house she has come from other house she is expected to adjust to every single thing in the house. And people take money in the form of dowry to accept her. What a terrible disrespect it is for the women as a human being.
I suppose education doesnt change attitudes.
I am glad to hear that there are some men who are broadminded about these issues and not scared of competition from women. I wish there were more people like you in our community who were ready to accept women as leaders. But alas they feel threatened.
Rajendraji,
Coming to your statements that women themselves do not want to come up and do well. There may be some truth in that point but what i feel is that if a person has been dependent and has not learned to face the world from the very beginning will be scared in an outside world to fetch for themselves. It would seem more comfortable to continue like this. But dont think that they really want this. it is the mental bondage which holds them back. And this is what happens to women in India. You ask any comfortable housekeeper, you will find a deep desire to be independent because no human being wants to feel like a burden to the society and they find solace in the fact that they are raising kids.
You feel that a women gets married and goes to the other house so why waste resources on her as she will be of no use to the parents after that. And in her in laws house she has come from other house she is expected to adjust to every single thing in the house. And people take money in the form of dowry to accept her. What a terrible disrespect it is for the women as a human being.
I suppose education doesnt change attitudes.
ramksehrawat
New member
Rajendraji, the argument that "women themselves do not want to come up and do well" is ridiculous especially in Indian context in general and jat context in particular, where nothing moves without the consent of a male head of family. It is like saying that sex-determination test is just an excuse girls use to avoid birth in India, as it is too crowded out there !!!!
Let us get rid of "what-I-think-is-the-only-truth" or "I-know-more-than-you" attitude. The fact, at least in India including jats, remains that the girl child is discriminated repeat distriminated against from womb to grave and a lot is required to be done for their upliftment and betterment. When we talk of genders, we cannot confine ourselves to a few girls whom we know or interact with. A few girls may have got opportunities but not proved good enough is only one side of the story, there may be millions who could have done better but never got opportunities. Discrimination against women is a much wider and deeper malady than what has been dealt with in the foregoing posts. Most of the above posts have been confined to the girls of middle class, educated families which is just a fraction of weaker-sex population in India. None of us are social reformers in the strict sense and hence cannot do anything for the emanicipation of the whole population. But we will not be lacking in our duty if we could ensure equality of opportunity to girls by making sure that all girls in our families, village or circle are given the same education as boys; that they are brought up without making them realise that they are inferior to boys and they are treated as paraya dhan from childhold itself. I am of the view that if we look around ourselves with open eyes, these days boys are proving to beno less "paraya dhan" !!! Those of you, the so called elite class, who think women are not discriminated against, I have a question for you ? Why do we say "party due ho gayi" loudly when a boy is born and say just sheepishly "laxmi aayi hai" when a girl is born ?
Let us get rid of "what-I-think-is-the-only-truth" or "I-know-more-than-you" attitude. The fact, at least in India including jats, remains that the girl child is discriminated repeat distriminated against from womb to grave and a lot is required to be done for their upliftment and betterment. When we talk of genders, we cannot confine ourselves to a few girls whom we know or interact with. A few girls may have got opportunities but not proved good enough is only one side of the story, there may be millions who could have done better but never got opportunities. Discrimination against women is a much wider and deeper malady than what has been dealt with in the foregoing posts. Most of the above posts have been confined to the girls of middle class, educated families which is just a fraction of weaker-sex population in India. None of us are social reformers in the strict sense and hence cannot do anything for the emanicipation of the whole population. But we will not be lacking in our duty if we could ensure equality of opportunity to girls by making sure that all girls in our families, village or circle are given the same education as boys; that they are brought up without making them realise that they are inferior to boys and they are treated as paraya dhan from childhold itself. I am of the view that if we look around ourselves with open eyes, these days boys are proving to beno less "paraya dhan" !!! Those of you, the so called elite class, who think women are not discriminated against, I have a question for you ? Why do we say "party due ho gayi" loudly when a boy is born and say just sheepishly "laxmi aayi hai" when a girl is born ?
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I don't think its men who discriminate against women. In 99% cases its the women herself who discrminates against another woman. Look at how mother-in-law treats her daughter-in-law and even her own daughter. Father or father in law is not a party in all this to the same extent.
Why can't women fight hard to get their due place in society? Why don't they go on nation wide and world wide agitation and bring the whole world to its knees till their demand for equality is accepted ? Trust me, I will join them in any such protest with all my energy. There are lots of liberated women all around world. Why don't they lead any such agitation for their less fortunate sisters' sake ? Why blame men all the time for all the problems of women ?
Just for an example, who kicked Maneka Gandhi from Gandhi house hold ? Was it not Mrs Indira Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi ? Could they do it if Sajay Gandhi was alive ? I can cite loads of such cases.. I very strongly believe that behind every woman's woes there is another woman in exactly the same way as there is a woman behind the success of a man..
Rajendra
Why can't women fight hard to get their due place in society? Why don't they go on nation wide and world wide agitation and bring the whole world to its knees till their demand for equality is accepted ? Trust me, I will join them in any such protest with all my energy. There are lots of liberated women all around world. Why don't they lead any such agitation for their less fortunate sisters' sake ? Why blame men all the time for all the problems of women ?
Just for an example, who kicked Maneka Gandhi from Gandhi house hold ? Was it not Mrs Indira Gandhi and Sonia Gandhi ? Could they do it if Sajay Gandhi was alive ? I can cite loads of such cases.. I very strongly believe that behind every woman's woes there is another woman in exactly the same way as there is a woman behind the success of a man..
Rajendra
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Dear Sehrawat Ji,
I totally agree with you. We really need to get out of the old mythof girl being a "paraya dhan". and treating them with discrimination. Even if it is a lady who treats the girl with discrimination, we need to educate them and ensure as a good human being, that it is not done.
Dear Rajendra Ji, your quote below:
I very strongly believe that behind every woman's woes there is another woman in exactly the same way as there is a woman behind the success of a man..
There is no doubt about that, for men would not have been there if women had not taken care of that little child whom she gave birth and fed him. Are you not praising women for all the success of men and blaming for all the failure of women by your quote. While father in law may not be visible party in discrimination of daughter in law, but certainly being head of the family he is more accountable than the mother in law. Let us not put all the blame on women and give all the credit to men.
Let us give full respect to them and help them come out of centuries of discrimination. Let us not talk about Maneka and Sonia, let us talk about a normal girl in a village and that is the point Mr. Sehrawat had tried to make.
I like many other people feel that women needs to be given more opportunities and we all need to work for that. I appreciate your willingness to join women in their world wide agitation. How about just helping them get better and more opportunities?
I totally agree with you. We really need to get out of the old mythof girl being a "paraya dhan". and treating them with discrimination. Even if it is a lady who treats the girl with discrimination, we need to educate them and ensure as a good human being, that it is not done.
Dear Rajendra Ji, your quote below:
I very strongly believe that behind every woman's woes there is another woman in exactly the same way as there is a woman behind the success of a man..
There is no doubt about that, for men would not have been there if women had not taken care of that little child whom she gave birth and fed him. Are you not praising women for all the success of men and blaming for all the failure of women by your quote. While father in law may not be visible party in discrimination of daughter in law, but certainly being head of the family he is more accountable than the mother in law. Let us not put all the blame on women and give all the credit to men.
Let us give full respect to them and help them come out of centuries of discrimination. Let us not talk about Maneka and Sonia, let us talk about a normal girl in a village and that is the point Mr. Sehrawat had tried to make.
I like many other people feel that women needs to be given more opportunities and we all need to work for that. I appreciate your willingness to join women in their world wide agitation. How about just helping them get better and more opportunities?
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