Why not the Head of a state/country be held guilty!!

[mukeshkumar007]

Recently Supreme Court held the president Som Mittal of HP Company responsible for the lapses in security and murder of a female employee of the company by saying that

"A man who heads any institution is always responsible, whether he's in the institution or outside the institution, negligence is negligence. It's associated with them, it's caused by them," and he must be prosecuted.

If we were to go by this logic then why not the Chief Minister or Prime Minister of a country be held guilty for the negligence specially in the matter of security and protection of citizens.

Almost every terrorists and naxal attacks are the result of the failure of state and countries’ security and intelligence system. Many of the accidents occurred due to sheer negligence by the police and authorities as they failed to take an appropriate action to avoid the accident even after having full information in advance.

Then why not the chief minister or prime minister be prosecuted?

 

[cooljat]

Bhai Mukesh, Very valid question u've asked but bigger question is who'll gonna punish them cuz here more or less whole system is corrupted

Recently Supreme Court held the president Som Mittal of HP Company responsible for the lapses in security and murder of a female employee of the company by saying that

"A man who heads any institution is always responsible, whether he's in the institution or outside the institution, negligence is negligence. It's associated with them, it's caused by them," and he must be prosecuted.

If we were to go by this logic then why not the Chief Minister or Prime Minister of a country be held guilty for the negligence specially in the matter of security and protection of citizens.

Almost every terrorists and naxal attacks are the result of the failure of state and countries’ security and intelligence system. Many of the accidents occurred due to sheer negligence by the police and authorities as they failed to take an appropriate action to avoid the accident even after having full information in advance.

Then why not the chief minister or prime minister be prosecuted?

 

[brahmtewatia]

gud question mukesh bhai...i like that, i really appreciate that
.
while agreeing 100% with yr views...here i wud like to say tht...
.
hadae tha nyu hi chaalae

 

[raj2rif]

The Difference?

Recently Supreme Court held the president Som Mittal of HP Company responsible for the lapses in security and murder of a female employee of the company by saying that

"A man who heads any institution is always responsible, whether he's in the institution or outside the institution, negligence is negligence. It's associated with them, it's caused by them," and he must be prosecuted.

If we were to go by this logic then why not the Chief Minister or Prime Minister of a country be held guilty for the negligence specially in the matter of security and protection of citizens.

Almost every terrorists and naxal attacks are the result of the failure of state and countries’ security and intelligence system. Many of the accidents occurred due to sheer negligence by the police and authorities as they failed to take an appropriate action to avoid the accident even after having full information in advance.

Then why not the chief minister or prime minister be prosecuted?

Dear Mukesh,

There is a big difference between a Corporation and a State or Country. The size itself is enough to answer your question.

Just to put the answer in the simplest form: Read this:-

1. A Cardiologist was getting his car repaired at a mechanic shop.
The mechanic asked to doctor: "Doctor, engine is the heart of the motor vehicle. I repair the heart of the motor vehicle, and get paid much less than what you get paid repairing the heart of the human being. Why is this discrimiantion.

2. The Doctor Replied: Try to repair the engine while it is running?

I hope you got the answer.

 

[brahmtewatia]

Dear Mukesh,

There is a big difference between a Corporation and a State or Country. The size itself is enough to answer your question.

Just to put the answer in the simplest form: Read this:-

1. A Cardiologist was getting his car repaired at a mechanic shop.
The mechanic asked to doctor: "Doctor, engine is the heart of the motor vehicle. I repair the heart of the motor vehicle, and get paid much less than what you get paid repairing the heart of the human being. Why is this discrimiantion.

2. The Doctor Replied: Try to repair the engine while it is running?

I hope you got the answer.

woops.... !!!2@#$%&^&^*(%^$+=?><~%$*&^@!
.
thats awesome...its sums up all !!!
a perfect reply !!!
.
the thread ends here, no room for further discussion...i guess...huh

 

[rkumar]

Recently Supreme Court held the president Som Mittal of HP Company responsible for the lapses in security and murder of a female employee of the company by saying that

"A man who heads any institution is always responsible, whether he's in the institution or outside the institution, negligence is negligence. It's associated with them, it's caused by them," and he must be prosecuted.

If we were to go by this logic then why not the Chief Minister or Prime Minister of a country be held guilty for the negligence specially in the matter of security and protection of citizens.

Almost every terrorists and naxal attacks are the result of the failure of state and countries’ security and intelligence system. Many of the accidents occurred due to sheer negligence by the police and authorities as they failed to take an appropriate action to avoid the accident even after having full information in advance.

Then why not the chief minister or prime minister be prosecuted?

Correct... I am sure this judgement will be quoted someday soon in court against government too.

RK^2

 

[dabasamit]

Not very clear...

Awesome reply Virendra Ji but couldnt figure out the analogy you are trying to make out with your example to the issue. I mean logically these are two totally different things.
Obviously our leaders are responsible for our safety. If China keeps on advancing like the way it is doing now, I dont think we (civillians) will be handed over guns and missiles to fight the Chinese. Be it Russian help or be it American or may be something else for that matter, its the leaders responsible for the action as they are supposed to take care of the safety of citizens from terrorism.
Its a different thing that in case of some unfortunate event they decide to fly overseas to live their lives on their respective Swiss accounts.

Dear Mukesh,

There is a big difference between a Corporation and a State or Country. The size itself is enough to answer your question.

Just to put the answer in the simplest form: Read this:-

1. A Cardiologist was getting his car repaired at a mechanic shop.
The mechanic asked to doctor: "Doctor, engine is the heart of the motor vehicle. I repair the heart of the motor vehicle, and get paid much less than what you get paid repairing the heart of the human being. Why is this discrimiantion.

2. The Doctor Replied: Try to repair the engine while it is running?

I hope you got the answer.

 

[spdeshwal]

It was posted halfway............

 

[spdeshwal]

It was in feb, 2008 that Som Mittal had made a plea against Karnatka High Court's decision to Supreme Court to stop his prosecution in Pratibha' murder case. In fact supreme court hasn't passed any direction but observed that he was responsible for her safety and protection. Earlier karnatka govt. had registered a case against Som Mittal charging him for liability. The case is still in the lower court and final decision is yet to come.

I agree with Mukesh and RK ji that same yardstick should be applied when Govt. ministers and top bureaucrates are involved. I am sure this case will have some consequences in future. In this case, one plea was also taken that care was not taken while recruiting the taxi drivers. Cabbie who murdered the girl was a convict and on bail. How about the employees of a govt department with dodgy and criminal background, specially in police force keep committing heinous crimes every day? Shouldn't the policy makers, police top brass, home secretary etc. held responsible for that.
It is not only the moral but constitutional responsibility of any govt. to provide
security to its citizens. Should't the Rajasthan govt be held responsible for intellegence and security failure?

There was a rail accident when Late Sh. Lal Bahadur Shastri was Railway Minister and he had resigned owning moral responsibility.

Colonel Saheb, I agree with you that sensitivity of the job and its rewards should be directly proportional . But then how about Rewards to liability and responsibility? Shouldn't this too be directly proportional?



Cheers!

 

[dabasamit]

Sahi bola Deswal Ji...hum aapke tark vitark se ek dum sehmat hain...

It was in feb, 2008 that Som Mittal had made a plea against Karnatka High Court's decision to Supreme Court to stop his prosecution in Pratibha' murder case. In fact supreme court hasn't passed any direction but observed that he was responsible for her safety and protection. Earlier karnatka govt. had registered a case against Som Mittal charging him for liability. The case is still in the lower court and final decision is yet to come.

I agree with Mukesh and RK ji that same yardstick should be applied when Govt. ministers and top bureaucrates are involved. I am sure this case will have some consequences in future. In this case, one plea was also taken that care was not taken while recruiting the taxi drivers. Cabbie who murdered the girl was a convict and on bail. How about the employees of a govt department with dodgy and criminal background, specially in police force keep committing heinous crimes every day? Shouldn't the policy makers, police top brass, home secretary etc. held responsible for that.
It is not only the moral but constitutional responsibility of any govt. to provide
security to its citizens. Should't the Rajasthan govt be held responsible for intellegence and security failure?

There was a rail accident when Late Sh. Lal Bahadur Shastri was Railway Minister and he had resigned owning moral responsibility.

Colonel Saheb, I agree with you that sensitivity of the job and its rewards should be directly proportional . But then how about Rewards to liability and responsibility? Shouldn't this too be directly proportional?



Cheers!

 

[vijay]

Should't the Rajasthan govt be held responsible for intellegence and security failure?
[\quote]

It is obvious that Rajasthan Govt. especially Home Ministry is totally responsible for the tragedy as inspite of 'some' information they even didn't tried to verify it with the state crime branch officials.

There was a rail accident when Late Sh. Lal Bahadur Shastri was Railway Minister and he had resigned owning moral responsibility.
[\quote]

That's why he was one and only ....... Gem of a person .

Colonel Saheb, I agree with you that sensitivity of the job and its rewards should be directly proportional . But then how about Rewards to liability and responsibility? Shouldn't this too be directly proportional?
[\quote]

Time is changed Deshwal Sir and hence the equations ........

Nowdays liabilities and responsibilities are inversly proportional to the Politicians and their greed

 

[trueblueindian]

wondering

A. the issue was of responsibility and not corruption ... national security issues are different

B. the POST

as Col. Tevatia said there's THE DIFFERENCE

say in case for a intelligence faliure who would you prosecute -

The President
The Head of State
The Head of Army / Forces
The Head of Intelligence Agencies

and if you please note there are several branches thereafter and delegated authorities who look after individual sections

so if a man fails at level Z can cause the man at level "X" to get prosecuted.

then the whole purpose of governance would be defeated because in an active Govt. system the delegation of authority goes into practice and people involved at all levels are equally responsible according to their portfolio ... one man's failure can only lead to another man's misfortune ... but at no point we can say it happened because of that "ANOTHER MAN" can we ???

lastly the system is so large it can never be cut to size to accumulate laws according to one's own wins and fancies ..


There is a big difference in running a corporation and running a NATION ..

I also protest the SC verdict against Mr. Som if he was no where involved and the mere reason he was prosecuted was for that he lead an organization and the system thereafter defaulted .. to an extent SC is right also coz as an nation we all know what is happening in corporate world, how people are taking leverages and how in-efficient their transport system is ... and instead of putting up checks and balances if someone goes for taking things granted ... then what SC did was right ... this would further result in better checks and balances in the entire corporate world and would deter such cases / corporate crimes / peace to common man..... rest it all depends upon the intelligence the SC got from law authorities and their perception on the situation.



As our dear friend S.P. Deshwal said .... i say why not stop the bail ple and impose rigorous punishment to the said class instead of putting the senior authorities behind bars or prosecuting them (AGAINST BAIL SYSTEM) and thereafter fault is fault .... in this process even if a senior commits an un-lawfull act he would be put to law ALSO ... WE ALL KNOW SORTFALLS ARE AT ALL LEVELS AND WOULDNT IT BE GOOD TO QUESTION THE CULPRIT.

I TOTALLY DISAGREE TO THE QUERY .... according to me there's no point we think in that perspective as mentioned by our dear friend.
(THE THREAD STARTER)

 

[dkumars]

A. the issue was of responsibility and not corruption ... national security issues are different

B. the POST

as Col. Tevatia said there's THE DIFFERENCE

say in case for a intelligence faliure who would you prosecute -

The President
The Head of State
The Head of Army / Forces
The Head of Intelligence Agencies

and if you please note there are several branches thereafter and delegated authorities who look after individual sections

so if a man fails at level Z can cause the man at level "X" to get prosecuted.

then the whole purpose of governance would be defeated because in an active Govt. system the delegation of authority goes into practice and people involved at all levels are equally responsible according to their portfolio ... one man's failure can only lead to another man's misfortune ... but at no point we can say it happened because of that "ANOTHER MAN" can we ???

lastly the system is so large it can never be cut to size to accumulate laws according to one's own wins and fancies ..


There is a big difference in running a corporation and running a NATION ..

I also protest the SC verdict against Mr. Som if he was no where involved and the mere reason he was prosecuted was for that he lead an organization and the system thereafter defaulted ..

Rightly said Trueblueindian. We are taking on one part of the issue. Do u think that the verdict against Mr. Som is correct ? I feel this is also not a correct decision.

 

[raj2rif]

Awesome reply Virendra Ji but couldnt figure out the analogy you are trying to make out with your example to the issue. I mean logically these are two totally different things.
Obviously our leaders are responsible for our safety. If China keeps on advancing like the way it is doing now, I dont think we (civillians) will be handed over guns and missiles to fight the Chinese. Be it Russian help or be it American or may be something else for that matter, its the leaders responsible for the action as they are supposed to take care of the safety of citizens from terrorism.
Its a different thing that in case of some unfortunate event they decide to fly overseas to live their lives on their respective Swiss accounts.

Dear Mr. Dabas,

The analogy was in just trying to make two things different. A corporation is much smaller organization then the state or the country. The owner of the corporation has a better opportunity to interact with his employees, then to say a CM or PM with all the people under their juridisction.

Regarding national security. There are things in place in the countries to fight both external aggression as well as the internal threats to the national security. When it comes to the national security no one gets spared. If a nation looses a war, then the Cabinet is collectively held responsible for the same. While some heads may roll in the defense services for a failure, there would be some to fall on the cabinet itself. In 1962, the then defense minister lost his job.

So, don't worry, our national security system is pretty time tested by now. While there will always be black sheeps in the crowd, most of them responsible for it are pretty good professionals. The civilians are less likely to take up arms for an external aggression, for we do have a fairly large defense forces. The only problem may be the sixth pay commission. Not many are or would be willing to join the defense forces unless, they are paid well. "Remember : Army marches on its bellies."

To me the point raised by you looks a little off the topic, but all the same so long we have a meaningful discussion it is fine.

 

[spdeshwal]

भाई संदेश , मेरा संदेश केवल इतना है की अगर ५००० हजार कार्मिकों की कम्पनी का अध्यक्ष अगर अपनेे एक सदय्स्य की हिफाजत का १००% जिमेदार है , २०००० पुलिस फोर्स का डीजीपी , होम मिनिस्टर कुछ तो जिमेदार होना ही चाहिए /
प्रतिभा हत्या कांड मैं भी पुलिस की बहुत बड़ी भागेदारी है / सभी drivers की पुलिस जांच तो करवाई होगी? अगर हाँ, तब् पुलिस जांच तो पुलिस ने ही की होगी?


हर राजनेता चुनाव से पहले गला फाड़ २ कर ये दोहराता है की जन्हा तुम्हारा पसीना गिरेगा आपना खून बहादुंगा, आतंकवाद को समूल नस्ट कर देंगे, राष्ट्र विरोधी तक्तोनो का सफाया कर देंगे
"गुलाबी नगरी तो मासुमों के खून से लाल हो गई, क्या किसी राजनेता ने ये कहते हुए अपना त्यागपत्तर दे दिया की में तुम्हारी हिफ्फाजत नही कर सका मुझे माफ़ करदो" ?

यही नही, अगर सही जांच हो, तब् पता चल जायेगा की किस नेता ने किस आतंकवादी को संरक्षण दे रखा था

 

[brahmtewatia]

nice thoughts of enlightenment from seniors nd elders of the community...JL

 

[trueblueindian]

Rightly said Trueblueindian. We are taking on one part of the issue. Do u think that the verdict against Mr. Som is correct ? I feel this is also not a correct decision.

hahhahaha TBI ... naaam tae tannney merra berrra aae nahi ... koye na Mr. Kumar ....

well as for ur query ... even i think on the same lines as u do ... however such cases were and are repeated again and again and maybe SC feels that the negligence could be curbed by prosecuting top official ... maybe this serves as a yard stick ... and other companies become more vigil and conscious about their transport arrangements.

we all know all these corporate houses compromise when things boil down to saving rupee .... and if the vision of SC is as i could best possibly interpret then only good thing can happen is that companies will be more strickter ....

भाई संदेश , मेरा संदेश केवल इतना है की अगर ५००० हजार कार्मिकों की कम्पनी का अध्यक्ष अगर अपनेे एक सदय्स्य की हिफाजत का १००% जिमेदार है , २०००० पुलिस फोर्स का डीजीपी , होम मिनिस्टर कुछ तो जिमेदार होना ही चाहिए /
प्रतिभा हत्या कांड मैं भी पुलिस की बहुत बड़ी भागेदारी है / सभी drivers की पुलिस जांच तो करवाई होगी? अगर हाँ, तब् पुलिस जांच तो पुलिस ने ही की होगी?


हर राजनेता चुनाव से पहले गला फाड़ २ कर ये दोहराता है की जन्हा तुम्हारा पसीना गिरेगा आपना खून बहादुंगा, आतंकवाद को समूल नस्ट कर देंगे, राष्ट्र विरोधी तक्तोनो का सफाया कर देंगे
"गुलाबी नगरी तो मासुमों के खून से लाल हो गई, क्या किसी राजनेता ने ये कहते हुए अपना त्यागपत्तर दे दिया की में तुम्हारी हिफ्फाजत नही कर सका मुझे माफ़ करदो" ?

यही नही, अगर सही जांच हो, तब् पता चल जायेगा की किस नेता ने किस आतंकवादी को संरक्षण दे रखा था

deshwal saab aapka prashhan aek bahut badi debate hai ... atleast the latter part of it ...


but if you read my above mentioned reply maybe you get close to the other side of coin .... as for the responsiblity factor things in govt ... every thing and all actions (like KRA's in Corporate world) are recorded in their CR (the personell HR file in Govt.) and one line in that file ruins the carrer of an individual ... and faliures are certianlly noted even in govt. thats why few officers do not get promoted and their jouniers come and sit on their head ... so as mentioned by col. tevatia the system is time tested and it has its own merrits and de merrits only thing is how well we are informed about the system that largely is the medium through which we analyize a particular system ...

we also have RTI act now (though its again an debatable issue) but if you or any other in this Forum feels to inquire about the current practice then someone should write to DOPT and ask the same and probably sare with us all for our info and knowlidge.

 

[mukeshkumar007]

Head of a country/state has the moral and constitutional responsibility as mentioned by deshwal uncle to ensure the security of its citizen and well functioning of the system. And if one is not doing justice with his responsibility then there is nothing wrong in prosecuting him. Negligence must be punished so to make other aware.

As some respected members argued that system of a govt is too large then a corporation. But I don’t think size matters here. System is completely hierarchical and everyone in the system is connected with each other and answerable in some way.

If the head of the state/country do his job with full responsibility and attentively then there is no reason that his subordinates won’t do. If he don’t accept any excuses from his colleague or subordinates and committed to produce the result then his subordinates will have to perform at any cost because in such a situation they will left with only two option either to vacant the post or perform, and in this way everyone in the system will make sure that he is able to do his part and has done what his boss or his job required.

Though there have been lots of examples of removing/suspending officers for negligence but that happens at very low level and these cases hardly brought any change in the system because people at top hardly get active. These people do nothing instead of playing blame game and saving the face of their government.

This system can function well only if we start fixing the responsibility from top to down rather than from down to top because people at top posts always understand their duty over just by suspending few officers at lower ranks for the negligence.

You can see through few examples that how irresponsibly they behave/react :

After every terrorist attack, There will be a statement from home minister that we have informed the state for likely threats of terrorist attack. their duty is over?

Now the state government will either say that we have not received any information or will say it was just a general update. Rajasthan government reacted something like that after the comments of Home Ministry.

One terrorists who was involved in Jaipur bomb blast was arrested few months back and later released. After the blast when his name came in suspected, head of the police department was asked by the media that why did you release him and then he replied mujhe nai pata wo kese release kiya gaya lakin uske release ke order upar se aye the. ...and duty is over. ...Now nobody know ab yeh upar hai kaun.

Head of the Rajasthan Police department admitted that he received the information from some resources of terrorists’ movement in the city but he didn’t take any action as he assumed that that information may not be genuine. Shouldn’t he cross verify the news/information for the assurance? Was not it negligence? To our wonder he is still enjoying his post and nobody in the government is ready to take moral responsibility.

It is the negligence of those people who are heading the government that caused the death of 100 of innocents.

Then why the hell they should not be prosecuted.

 

[raj2rif]

That is why we must have debate!!!!!!!!!

भाई संदेश , मेरा संदेश केवल इतना है की अगर ५००० हजार कार्मिकों की कम्पनी का अध्यक्ष अगर अपनेे एक सदय्स्य की हिफाजत का १००% जिमेदार है , २०००० पुलिस फोर्स का डीजीपी , होम मिनिस्टर कुछ तो जिमेदार होना ही चाहिए /
प्रतिभा हत्या कांड मैं भी पुलिस की बहुत बड़ी भागेदारी है / सभी drivers की पुलिस जांच तो करवाई होगी? अगर हाँ, तब् पुलिस जांच तो पुलिस ने ही की होगी?


हर राजनेता चुनाव से पहले गला फाड़ २ कर ये दोहराता है की जन्हा तुम्हारा पसीना गिरेगा आपना खून बहादुंगा, आतंकवाद को समूल नस्ट कर देंगे, राष्ट्र विरोधी तक्तोनो का सफाया कर देंगे



"गुलाबी नगरी तो मासुमों के खून से लाल हो गई, क्या किसी राजनेता ने ये कहते हुए अपना त्यागपत्तर दे दिया की में तुम्हारी हिफ्फाजत नही कर सका मुझे माफ़ करदो" ?

यही नही, अगर सही जांच हो, तब् पता चल जायेगा की किस नेता ने किस आतंकवादी को संरक्षण दे रखा था

Dear Deshwal Sahab,

It is because of this reason, we must have debates in elections at every level like the one we have in US. When some one says, I will do this if elected. The question to be asked "How" and in "What Time Frame", "What resources will you use and from where those will come".

The leader who has a plan will answer, others, will prove otherwise.

 

[dkumars]

Dear Deshwal Sahab,

It is because of this reason, we must have debates in elections at every level like the one we have in US. When some one says, I will do this if elected. The question to be asked "How" and in "What Time Frame", "What resources will you use and from where those will come".

The leader who has a plan will answer, others, will prove otherwise.

Best policy. This must be implemented here too. But sir corruption doesn have defined boundaries. It is omnipresent as far as Mera Desh mahan is concerned.

Sir, i will be glad to see if u write in detail that who is responsible for such incidents? Whom shod we catch ? Is it that organization's authority or ministers or else whom ?
I feel u can give a balanced answer to give right direction to the tread.