Gotra Issue...is this 21st century

[chhillar]

Villagers put up nakas on gotra issue
Raman Mohan
Tribune News Service​

Badhra (Bhiwani), December 19
The row over the marriage of a boy of Poonia gotra of Jevali village to a girl with maternal links to Sheoran gotra on December 10 took a serious turn today with villagers putting up nakas around the village to prevent any member of the boy’s family from leaving or entering the village. Although the entire family of Hawa Singh, the boy’s father, has already migrated from the village to an unknown place after last Sunday’s panchayat which expelled the Poonia family from the village for life, the panchayat members feared the Poonias might enter the village in a police vehicle.
A police picket continues to guard the locked house of the Poonias in the village. Police parties also patrolled the village and its surrounding areas. Villagers checked every police vehicle passing through the nakas around the village.
The villagers set up nakas following the registration of a criminal case against eight villagers following the panchayat meeting. They were booked under Sections 147, 149, 323, 324, 541 and 506 of the IPC. The incensed villagers, fearing arrest, threatened to court arrest if any of the eight were picked up by the police.
The row erupted after the marriage of Hawa Singh’s son Ombir Singh to Saroj on December 10. The bride hails from a family in which a close female relative belongs to Sheoran gotra. The villagers met Hawa Singh on November 28 to urge him to cancel the marriage. Despite agreeing to do so, Hawa Singh went ahead with the marriage.
The villagers are now planning to take the issue to a gathering of Sheoran 25 - a khap panchayat of 25 villages dominated by the Sheorans. They are reported to be planning a meeting of the khap on or after December 25 to avoid any complications in the court where an old khap panchayat issue is to come up for hearing on December 23.
Meanwhile, the Poonias are planning to approach the Punjab and Haryana High Court to seek directions to the district administration to provide them security and curb illegal activities of the panchayat.
The area has become notorious for raking up such issues. Over the past year or so, similar problems were created for at least two couples under similar circumstances. These couples continue to be under siege despite relief from the court. However, the court intervention has failed to check panchayats from expelling villagers on defying their diktats.

 

[dahiyars]

Gotra Issue

Dear All and Chillar ji.

One more Fatwa by these so called Panchayats. Only courts orders will not work till well meaning people of Haryana rise up against these FATWAS. A campaign is required against these FATWAS.

R.S.Dahiya

 

[raj_rathee]

Dear All and Chillar ji.

One more Fatwa by these so called Panchayats. Only courts orders will not work till well meaning people of Haryana rise up against these FATWAS. A campaign is required against these FATWAS.

R.S.Dahiya

Our social system is based on certian social premises that have existed
for many many centuries. I am not sure how a few who consider themselves
"with the times" can all of a sudden start overriding the Panchayats.

If anything this has to be a gradual process...and in some cases we
see this happening (like ignoring Dadi ka gotra and things
like that). You cannot just change things overnight.

I respect the authority of the Panchayats (while not necessarily agreeing
with them). In this case the couple is ex-communicated from the
village. I think that is a reasonable compromise. Furthermore, the
parents had been warned against the marriage in advance...so this
is not a after the fact issue either.

What would we want next...marriages with the gotras...within the same
village...to our cousins?....I mean why not? Issme ke kharabi hai?
Its just stretching this a bit further, right?

I do not beleive that Indian courts are quite ready to handle the diverse
social situations that our community faces...and our ways of dealing
with them. The Panchayats are one mechanism that allows some
level of independence. We should not undermine them.

 

[vkaschaudhary]

21ST CENTURY DOESNT MEAN...

we should forget our culture....values...ethics....a system made by ancestor by which we can respect the relations.....

if gotra system religion system was not followed by them..then we would have benn following the Muslim system..where we have to marry a girl to whom we say sister in childhood and later on that she becomes wife....

god make relationships to.....to stop crime,to follow a system...
if that would not have been....than there won't b any difference...b/w a human being and dogs..............


so we must follow the system and values its not matter of 21 century or later on....

 

[hdsura]

Tribal Thinking

For an outsider these panchayats seem more of an ill than cure. Most (may be all) of the time these are in news for bad reasons. Their means of solving problems, if at all that is the intention, are medieval.

They are giving good amunition to the Jat unfriendly media to create circus out of Jats.

 

[raj_rathee]

For an outsider these panchayats seem more of an ill than cure. Most (may be all) of the time these are in news for bad reasons. Their means of solving problems, if at all that is the intention, are medieval.

They are giving good amunition to the Jat unfriendly media to create circus out of Jats.

It *may be* that they are medieval.
However, they, as far as I can tell, represent the mentality and thought
process of the people they tend to represent (for better or worse).
Note that they do not represent someone sitting in Las Vegas (yourself)
or Bay areas (myself) of California. Infact they do not even represent
those of these villages who have migrated to the urban areas and
given up on the village.

So I fail to see who we are to question them. As far as I can tell this
is as good a democratic system as any we can have. They represent the
people who vote them in. If they are medieval, the folks they represent
are medieval too.

Either way, we *outsiders* need to butt out!

And by the way your title "Tribal Thinking" is quite appropriate. This is tribal
thinking. But guess what? The fact that we have a "Jatland.com"
and the fact that we are all members here is "tribal" in nature. We are
identifying with a tribe and find comfort and strength in that identity
and its ways. The Panchayat is actually protecting these ways
in the ways it thinks best.

 

[chhillar]

Te bhai Rathee panchatiaan pe comment karan tahin gaam mein jana pade ga ke??? par gaam ka in mere batyaan ne naka moond rakhya se

what would you say if these panchayatis do the same to your brother.....kick out the bride????

 

[sidchhikara]

Panchayati democracy

It *may be* that they are medieval.
However, they, as far as I can tell, represent the mentality and thought
process of the people they tend to represent (for better or worse).
Note that they do not represent someone sitting in Las Vegas (yourself)
or Bay areas (myself) of California. Infact they do not even represent
those of these villages who have migrated to the urban areas and
given up on the village.

So I fail to see who we are to question them. As far as I can tell this
is as good a democratic system as any we can have. They represent the
people who vote them in. If they are medieval, the folks they represent
are medieval too.

Either way, we *outsiders* need to butt out!

And by the way your title "Tribal Thinking" is quite appropriate. This is tribal
thinking. But guess what? The fact that we have a "Jatland.com"
and the fact that we are all members here is "tribal" in nature. We are
identifying with a tribe and find comfort and strength in that identity
and its ways. The Panchayat is actually protecting these ways
in the ways it thinks best.

I understan that you are emphasizing the democratic process that the panchayats follow - majority wins. But the basis of any democratic process is civility. Panchayats have the mentality of tribal justice. Panchayats cannot be democratic because the members of panchayat donot understand the democratic process. there is a disconnect there. No civility no democracy.

 

[vinodks]

I agree with you. In modern times, the working styles and norms of Panchayat system may sound unpalatable and outlandish but the system is core characteristic of Jat culture. A century or so before when police and govt. was unknown to villages it was this system that gave safeguard to legal and criminal issues. Along the way certain cultural metaphors and norms emerged naturally because of so-called clannish nature of social structure. The word "clan" doesn't satisfactorily reflect the nature of gotra system but it got its way in common jargon somehow. Jats are not the only people who excerice exogamous system of marriage. Historially, laws of marriage in khatri, rajputs and other castes too were equally or more constrainted and owing to their traditional upperhand in social and economical their cultural norms gained acceptability. The upper-middle class of small towns isn't much improvement over so-called "clannish" style of village, only that they are powerless or unenthusiastic to raise such nakabandi. When it comes to marriage issues the liberal attitude that Jats had taken has been envy of other classes, I mean historically. Not all classes had luxury of widow remarriage, less constrainted sati-partha etc.

Having said that, historical significance of panchayat doesn't justify the decisions taken by panchayat. I am personally against gotra funda of mother and grandma, but I am not judgemental on those who practice that. It takes time for such social practices to become obsolete. If you remember our father's generation times or talk to elderly people you would get an idea how much things have changed positively, though elderly class doesn't seem to appreciate the change that much. But they deserve benefit of doubt, in fact they need. Not only gotra system but even intracaste marriage system can also be argued. Its fine to argue on such issues and reforms are welcome but you should also think about implementing it, atleast in your circle of influence.

These issues make nice material for news in media and people sitting in front of plasma tv dont have oppotunity, time or correct perpective to enable them to reflect on the complex social issue in its entirety before passing a silent judgement in his mind.

Rathee saab, Photo mein tau ji hain kya?... bahut achhe pic hai...

-vinod

Khushwant Singh: “They (Jats) brought with them certain institutions, the most important being the “panchayat”, an elected body of five elders, to which they pledged allegiance. Every Jat village was a republic…”

It *may be* that they are medieval.
However, they, as far as I can tell, represent the mentality and thought
process of the people they tend to represent (for better or worse).
Note that they do not represent someone sitting in Las Vegas (yourself)
or Bay areas (myself) of California. Infact they do not even represent
those of these villages who have migrated to the urban areas and
given up on the village.

So I fail to see who we are to question them. As far as I can tell this
is as good a democratic system as any we can have. They represent the
people who vote them in. If they are medieval, the folks they represent
are medieval too.

Either way, we *outsiders* need to butt out!

And by the way your title "Tribal Thinking" is quite appropriate. This is tribal
thinking. But guess what? The fact that we have a "Jatland.com"
and the fact that we are all members here is "tribal" in nature. We are
identifying with a tribe and find comfort and strength in that identity
and its ways. The Panchayat is actually protecting these ways
in the ways it thinks best.

 

[raj_rathee]

Te bhai Rathee panchatiaan pe comment karan tahin gaam mein jana pade ga ke??? par gaam ka in mere batyaan ne naka moond rakhya se

what would you say if these panchayatis do the same to your brother.....kick out the bride????

Nahin, comment karan tahin toh kahin nahin jaana yaar.
We are all commenting here. So everyone can have their say.

If I had a brother who is part of the rural system then yes he would be expected to follow the societal norm. If he breaks that norm then he
should take on the punishment that is normally meted out...in this
case it is usually leave the village for good. I think it is a fair and
reasonable way of handling such a situation. I do not think it
is barbaric or outrageous given the current psyche of the rural
folks.

I am not saying these norms are right or wrong. I am saying these norms
reflect the majority of the folks that come under its umbrella. If we want
change then that is a gradual process of educating/convincing/....
At the point that the majority of the villagers feel differently then I am
pretty comfortable in the beflief that the decisions the Panchayats
take will also reflect that majority.

Change takes place. It is gradual.

Don't blame the Panchayat. It is our people who still think like that.
Unko pada lyo jitna padhaya jaanta ho thaare te.

I do believe that Indian court system is not capable of dealing
with the complex issues that our society faces and the socio-economic
realities that exist out there. Law is meant to provide rules for how
a "reasonable"/"common" (wo)man (hence the term "common law") should
conduct themselves. Given our society we do not
have enough depth in our legal system to deal with all that. Any wonder
why we have separate laws for muslims? Why not a separate one for Jats?
And if so...why not the Panchayati system?

[BTW What I am saying does not at all reflect my own stand on what is
right or wrong in terms of social norms. My own standards are probably way
too outrageous for even the very liberated amongst us. The Panchayat
would probably have me burnt alive. ]

 

[raj_rathee]

I understan that you are emphasizing the democratic process that the panchayats follow - majority wins. But the basis of any democratic process is civility. Panchayats have the mentality of tribal justice. Panchayats cannot be democratic because the members of panchayat donot understand the democratic process. there is a disconnect there. No civility no democracy.

Dost, the members of the panchayats are the people. Since
times immemorial that has always been the case. Civility is all about what
we "think" to be civil. The definition has been changing throughout history.

When the rural folks come to the same definition of "civility" as you then
what you will see is the decisions will reflect that as well.

It is futile to say that members of the Panchayat do not understand the
democratic process. By that yardstick we would not allow
any body without a PhD to stand in elections. We would probably
never have farmers or less educated people represent us in Delhi.
Because when you talk to the "Deliwallahs" they will say that these
ganwar/unpads ko democracy ka kya pata!

Democracy is about representation. It means the people choose who will
speak for them. Are you saying that our folks don't know about that?
You must be kidding if you really want to say that.

 

[raj_rathee]

Rathee saab, Photo mein tau ji hain kya?... bahut achhe pic hai...

-vinod

Khushwant Singh: “They (Jats) brought with them certain institutions, the most important being the “panchayat”, an elected body of five elders, to which they pledged allegiance. Every Jat village was a republic…”

Vinod...couldn't get to your post right now...Have to take off...

The man in the pic was my Nana. He passed away a couple
years back.

 

[sidchhikara]

Democracy is a western concept

Dost, the members of the panchayats are the people. Since
times immemorial that has always been the case. Civility is all about what
we "think" to be civil. The definition has been changing throughout history.

When the rural folks come to the same definition of "civility" as you then
what you will see is the decisions will reflect that as well.

It is futile to say that members of the Panchayat do not understand the
democratic process. By that yardstick we would not allow
any body without a PhD to stand in elections. We would probably
never have farmers or less educated people represent us in Delhi.
Because when you talk to the "Deliwallahs" they will say that these
ganwar/unpads ko democracy ka kya pata!

Democracy is about representation. It means the people choose who will
speak for them. Are you saying that our folks don't know about that?
You must be kidding if you really want to say that.

First things first - Democracy is a western concept. A few thins are required for democracy to function:

Executive
Legislature
Judiciary

These have to be mutually excusive of each others control.

Panchayat is everything rolled into one.

There is no court (panchayati) to decide for those who want to appeal panchayat's decision.
Look at the way they function - they try to impose their decision on the people.

Panchayat is a democracy to the point of how it is elected. It ends there. It does not have the instruments to function as a democracy.
There is no protection for minority opinion either.

Indian democracy itself is feudal. Its an illusion of democracy. The instruments are there as suggested by the constituionare there. But they are inadequate and mostly on paper.


--Because when you talk to the "Deliwallahs" they will say that these
ganwar/unpads ko democracy ka kya pata! -- what makes you think ppl in delhi know anything about democracy??

Anyway, that is the system the villages function under. They will continue to function under that system because they don't know what else is out there. It does'nt affect me. I am not sure how much it affects you. So I will leave it at that.

 

[hdsura]

Constitutional Authority

I am truly an outsider to this whole panchayat system because originally I am from Rajasthan where there is no such panchayat system exists. So, I am not sure of the authenticity and the authority of this panchayat system.

There are two issues in this -
1) What is the legal or constitutional framework of these panchayats.
2) Social fabric of a certain class.

From what I understand (not limited to any particular episode) that these panayats are unconstitutional let alone democratic. If one justify to run an unconstitutional parallel governing/justice system then I guess one is treading dangerous territory. This is the point media is trying to convey.

Social fabric is concerned, no question of social values, rather unconcerned people getting in others business. Then may be that is what I am doing here. -

 

[hdsura]

Butt Out

Sounds like a panchayat *dictat*.

What to say. What to say. -

 

[raj_rathee]

I think one could debate concepts of democracy, law and so on
ad nauseum. I do not think we'll really get anywhere.

My view is that Indian society is too diverse. Different cultures exist within it.
Its different socio-economic groups have very differing needs. India is not
really in a position to create *sustainable* laws that can address the diversity of its people. We create laws that you just can't implement or enforce.

Try preventing child labor, when you don't have a system to feed these
children! Law bana kar kya uska acchar daaloge? Bacchon ka pet nahin bharoge toh woh kaam toh karenge hi!

Similarly try telling a Jat man in the village that he can't get a second wife
just because he doesn't have children from the first. If there
isn't a social system in place to support him in his old age what the
hell is he supposed to do? If the law forces his hand, he'll want to
divorce his wife or get rid of her in some other way. What social system
is in place to help out the poor woman if that happens to her?

In the current system at least the guy can marry again and still support
his first wife. The culture allows for that. The panchayats support that.

But if you start to enforce monogamy laws and such crap, you'll just
end up breaking up a social system that is practical and works.

Things like the panchayat are a very practical way of enforcing social norms
that these societies have defined for themselves. Essentially historically
it started as a system of "wise"/"elder" man that helped resolve issues.
In many ways it is still the same. Its a local way of dealing with local
issues. It gives power to the people in a very true sense to deal with
certain issues that no Indian law can really address in a way that
it satisfies the ground realities of Indian society.

From a Jat centric view, it allows us freedom to carry on a large
part of our lives the way we see fit...not how some lalas/brahamans
see fit for us in some far away seat of power.

Things aren't perfect. They never are. But bartering away our
power weilded through the Panchayats would be rather naive. Instead
what is needed is to participate in that system to ensure that is reflects
the true needs of our society.

Duniya power len tahin pata nahin kya-2 karti hai...tum log isse free men dena chahate ho.

 

[dndeswal]

A blow to ancient social values

.
राठी भाई ने जो कुछ लिखा, बिल्कुल ठीक है । अगर कानून बनाने से समस्यायें हल हो जाती तो अब तक तो अपना देश पता नहीं कितना आगे निकल चुका होता । हरयाणा में कानून है कि बाप की जायदाद में बेटी का भी हक है । हुआ यह है कि बहुत से गांवों में जिनके कोई लड़का नहीं था, मां-बाप के न रहने पर वहां पर ब्याहता लड़की रहने लगी - यानी एक दूसरे गोत्र का (पड़गोत्ती) परिवार वहां रहने लगा । कुछ सालों के बाद जब उनके बच्चे बड़े होंगे और उनकी शादी का सवाल आयेगा, तो ऐसा झगड़ा तो होगा ही । पहले एक गांव में एक या दो गोत्र (गोत) ही होते थे, अब तो पता नहीं कितने हो गये हैं । एक ही गांव में रहने वाले अलग-अलग गोत के परिवार आपस में रिश्ता भी करने लग सकते हैं (जैसा शहरों में होता है) - पर हमारा समाज इसकी इजाजत नहीं देता कि एक ही गांव में शादी हो या किसी दूसरे ऐसे गांव की लड़की ब्याह कर लाई जाये जिसके गोत के आदमी गांव में पहले ही मौजूद हैं ।

समस्या यहीं से शुरू होती है और पंचायतों को दखलंदाजी भी करनी पड़ती है । सरकारों ने कानून तो बना दिये पर समाज में उनके उल्टे असर का ख्याल नहीं किया । जो समाज हजारों साल से चला आ रहा है, उस पर पश्चिमी देशों से उधार लिये हुए कानून लागू करने से तो समाज में उथल-पुथल होगी ही ।

इसका मतलब यह न समझें कि मैं बेटियों के संपत्ति के हक के खिलाफ हूं - हक मिलना और बात है पर किसी दूसरे गोत्र वाले परिवार का किसी गांव में हमेशा के लिए बस जाना बिल्कुल अलग मुद्दा है और यही झगड़े की जड़ है ।

दूसरी बात यह भी है कि आजकल के पत्रकार भी ज्यादातर शहरी लोग हैं, उनको न तो पंचायती सिस्टम और न ही देहातों के रीत-रिवाजों का पता है । इन लोगों को अच्छा मसाला मिल जाता है और खूब नमक-मिर्च लगाकर लिखते हैं । ज्यादातर पत्रकार पंजाबी, बनिया या बाहमण हैं और तकरीबन सारे ही जाट विरोधी हैं । ऐसे पंचायती फैसले पहले भी होते आये हैं - और बहुत सोच समझ कर ही किये जाते हैं । आजकल जब समाज के ताने-बाने पर हमला हो रहा है तो ऐसी घटनायें तो होंगी ही । अपनी मर्जी से किसी भी गोत्र में या किसी भी जाति में ब्याह करना हो तो बेहतर है कि गांव को छोड़ दो और दूर किसी शहर में रहने लग जाओ । पर आजकल गावों में भी जमीन की कीमतें इतनी बढ गईं हैं, कौन एक सोने की मुर्गी को मारना चाहता है ?
.

 

[hdsura]

No fault of system

You are telling that these Panchayats are panacea? On the contrary they are in the news all the time for their irresposible conduct and wrong reasons. Never ever for good reasons. What does that tell you? Does one need a 100 line paragraph to illustrate how good or bad they are?

I also grew up in a village and good part of my relatives still live in villages and it is not very far from Haryana. The social structure is not very different but there are no Panchayats. Never ever felt that the rule of law didn't work. If it works in my village than it would in your's too.

If one chooses not to participate in mainstream and want to live in medieval era thats a matter of choice not fault of the system. They and their Panchayats have bigger problems.

 

[hdsura]

Social problems exists everywhere

Your arguments are not holding because you say you have Panchayats and you have more problems.

In fact, you will find more problems in places where there are panchayats than not.

This panchayat systems you are advocating reminds me the African countries like Rwanda where they have similar panchayats.

There is no society even the most successful one's in world free from problems.

 

[vinodks]

I agree with Rathee and Deswal bhai. We dont have to stretch it so much as to call panacea but it would make more sense if one would honestly try to understand it by taking all factors into account. Its very easy to critize panachayats becuase they dont have formal legistative procedure. Historically they had better defined goals and played indispensible role but few of the things are becoming irrelevent with time.
Ofcourse we are against some incompromising stands taken by panchayats and should do to pervent them but I wouldn't believe in whatever I see in news and form an opinion. The debate can go on and on. Instead of going into its present structure, pros and cons I wanted to discuss its historical role, for which I would start a thread in history section.

Anyway good luck for healthy debate.

-vinod

You are telling that these Panchayats are panacea? On the contrary they are in the news all the time for their irresposible conduct and wrong reasons. Never ever for good reasons. What does that tell you? Does one need a 100 line paragraph to illustrate how good or bad they are?

I also grew up in a village and good part of my relatives still live in villages and it is not very far from Haryana. The social structure is not very different but there are no Panchayats. Never ever felt that the rule of law didn't work. If it works in my village than it would in your's too.

If one chooses not to participate in mainstream and want to live in medieval era thats a matter of choice not fault of the system. They and their Panchayats have bigger problems.