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Thread is leading to off topic . Point given by BLS sir was different but and now thread topic is intellect level of Defence and civil service cadre. my views are,

1. Requirement of job and working condition at both the services (defence vs IAS/IPS) are defferent. This is the only reason that procdure for entry in both cadre is different. Square pg can not bloack the round hole or vice versa. But comparison about inttlegency is wrong. Saying that Defence officer intllegency level is low, is not correct.

2. Moreover ,as few jatlander belong to a Army officers family are giving their vies as they know the complete inside structure and status of Defence services. Children of Army offrs including Army offrs wives know only one part of the defence life. they can describe the one side of coin.

3. Quality of offrs in both cadre can not be same as the reqt is not same. u know TN Seshan topper of IAS batch of 1961 is a SSB failer. A lot of example r there including H'ble Previous president Abdul Klam Azad. The same thing is on other side also every defence offr can not clear the IAS exam. But i will say only few can do this. reason is very simple. They cant compete with a guy coming directly from college.

3. Thirdly , Govt /UPSC has fixed pass mark level for both the cadre. Competition in Civil services is throat cut that's why only creams r getting into it. the same thing is not for Defence because participants r limited (of that caliber, otherwise postgraduates can be seen in the recruitment line for mazdoors and peon.) Even passed candidates r more more than the requirement of defence due that pass mark level but maximum guys r out at SSB level. Even complete batches r washed out at SSB centers. So Comparison between both r not fair at all.

4. Suppose, IAS /IPS cadre becomes non attractive for youths due working condition / perks/ or any other reason as it is with defence services. Than what will happened, there will be shortage of offrs there also and same time guys on lesser quality side as reqd for cadre will get in. This is happening with Defence services.

5. As on date ,Defence services r the last choice of all gradutes. Medical / Engg/Law graduates dont even think about this option. Reason is very simple , tough life / low perks/disturbance in family life. Ward of defence offrs r also not interested to join the so called glory due to the same reason. Even offrs themselves dont like that Their children should join the defence services. That's why defence services r facing acute shortage of offrs.

6. If Govt does think about the solution , than situation will go out of hand. Some people can say, what is the need of this organisation. But if public want to use their laptops and computers in AC comfort than some body should be there at border to provide that safe zone for these highly intellect guys.
 
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I can assure my friends that a large no of IAS/ IFS if go through the Services Selection Board(SSB) will fail to qualify. Services need some special an specific qualities in the officer candidates. I have also no doubt that many who failed the SSB later qualified in Central services. Couple of my own students , sirca 1963, the emergency Commission Officers, who failed later to get permanent commission got into iFS an IAS. However, the current issue under discussion is the prestige of the officers and Jawans visa vis their civilian counter parts. and the warrant of precedance. Services are being constantly down graded and it has to stop some where, BLS
 
@ Col. Tevathia

"""There is not doubt the entrance examination for IPS and IAS is much tougher than the UPSC examination. But then people coming through the NDA just have a 12th grade education. It might be of interesting to note that some of the SO CALLED intellectuals do fail in the NDA entrance examination."""

UPSC conducts all the civil services (IFS, IAS etc) written exams as well as that of defence services exams (NDA, CDS)....

Also the SO CALLED intellectuals includes Dr. Abdul Kalam Azad, T N Seshan....and long such list that candidates hear, those who don't get selected..

ek kahawat hai, "jo hota hai, us bande ke acche ke liye hota hai...

--------------------------------

@ Brig L S....
"I can assure my friends that a large no of IAS/ IFS if go through the Services Selection Board(SSB) will fail to qualify. Services need some special an specific qualities in the officer candidates"

I can also assure you no (or may be a large number of) NDA/CDS (SSB) qualifier are those who had failed to qualify for IIT, IIM'S, GATE, GMAT.....

i.e, such talks are illogical..
 
Respected Brig Uncle,

I dont doubt on SSB interview process as it is one of the finest & most exhaustive interview process to select the best cadets, but still I feel it needs to be reviewed & overhauled now!

I've seen many guys who're passionate for Army like anything and they give their best in SSB but still they fail to prove, they keep on try & try but still no success while I noted less deserving & dumbo kinda guys get thro' !

I feel the process need to be reviewed & it should allow the real passionate guys for whom Army is the final destination !!

If they make it little more flexible, more n more deserving candidates will come and I'm sure the diminish of Officers will be fulfilled soon.

Passion is the driving thing and if you match passion with profession, it can do wonders !! :)


Rock on
Jit



bls31 said:
I can assure my friends that a large no of IAS/ IFS if go through the Services Selection Board(SSB) will fail to qualify. Services need some special an specific qualities in the officer candidates. I have also no doubt that many who failed the SSB later qualified in Central services. Couple of my own students , sirca 1963, the emergency Commission Officers, who failed later to get permanent commission got into iFS an IAS. However, the current issue under discussion is the prestige of the officers and Jawans visa vis their civilian counter parts. and the warrant of precedance. Services are being constantly down graded and it has to stop some where, BLS
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cooljat said:


I feel the process need to be reviewed & it should allow the real passionate guys for whom Army is the final destination !!

If they make it little more flexible, more n more deserving candidates will come and I'm sure the diminish of Officers will be fulfilled soon.

Passion is the driving thing and if you match passion with profession, it can do wonders !! :)


Rock on
Jit
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I do agree with you bro. There are many for them Army is a passion not a career but still couldn't make it inspite of many attempts, now whether it is the fault of the system or they themselves got the faults?


What I have observed that many times even non-deserving gets through SSB just because he had been coached by someone and clearly instructed about what to reply, what to write in psycho, what story you draw when a this kind of pictures comes to u and what to reply in interview on a particular question and so on.. I have seen the whole batch getting shocked when a chest no. is announced recommended, about whom no body have expected. A guy who even failed to adjust with whole group in cadet line hence how it can be said that he posses all those so called 15 OLQs, really don’t know how they judge it.

I don’t think that it requires some extra ordinary skills to judge a people in your group, I think everyone can easily draw a outline of a person who has been there with you for 5 days, but if such a dumb get selected, then it is enough to say that system got some fault and it must be corrected before it cost dearer.

I have seen many brilliant and passionate candidates getting rejected whereas a dumb managed to get selected because he just behaved and replied in the way he was asked by his coach.

I don’t know about the past but can say that at present selection process is not able to get the best candidate selected. People sitting outside (those were the part of this system earlier) have been able to get even a below – average person selected.
 
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It is absolutely ridiculous on the part of people associated with the pay commission to have given a raw deal to the rank of Ltcol.How can we digest the fact that an officer who hitherto drew lesser pay then us,gets almost Rs 11000 more PM.It is a gross injustice and needs to be looked into by the Government on priority.It is pathetic to note that three services chief have done every thing they could to apprise the people who matter but it seems the matter has not been taken as seriously as it was needed to be.No body will benefit by demoralizing this rank which happens to be the backbone of the defence forces,comprising almost 32% of the officers strength.In fact this rank happens to be the worst sufferer as regards to the pay fixation.Writing of letters by defence minister is just a formality and i don't think anybody is taking it seriously.We are not against the raise given to our counterparts in other departments but it hurts when our own people treat us so shabbily.We deserve some dignity after all. .The repercussions of giving such a raw deal to this rank can be beyond apprehension and it will surely do a great damage to the morale of these officers as they will serve with pain and anguish.Is it fair sir..?


In the end i would like to say that it is futile to request this Government as they are busy in other things and by their inaction they are giving a bigger hurt to us.As regards to the leak made by some IAS officer regarding MSP is concerned;let me tell those gentlemen that MSP is nothing but a toy given to us to beat our heads.This country is doing no favor to us by giving this kind of special pay to compensate for the uniqueness of this job and the very reminder of it and other things like CSD canteen facilities is nothing but adding insult to the injury.In my entire service of 31 years, i might have not made purchases of more than Rs 50,000 through CSD canteen.By doing so they are conveying clearly that for the vows of Defence forces these people are greatly instrumental and our political leadership appears hoodwinked by there crafty talks and calculations.Per say we have nothing against these people but time and again they have proved to be a negative mindset for the defence forces which i feel is not only unbecoming on the part of this elite service but also very unfortunate for the health of this nation.I request to our brothers in defence forces to fight this gross injustice staying within the 'MARYADA' of DISCIPLINE which we all hold so dear to our self esteem.We are proud of our country and will always remain so and will keep on discharging our duties with utmost dignity and pride in most selfless manner.


I am of the firm opinion that if this Government does not agree to the legitimate demands of our defence forces then we must not budge from our stand and continue drawing existing pay scales.We are not going to die doing that.It is a shameful chapter in the history of INDIA........i have my apprehensions that this issue will snowball into a big problem and a few heads will roll.Opposition parties are just waiting in the wing(as they usually do...play a political game in a calculated manner) and will react strongly either way whether Government accepts these demands or not.If they accept then opposition will take them to task for bringing this issue to such a pass where defence forces were in direct confrontation with the Govt....(which never happened before in the history of independent india) and if they do not accept then they will be accused of demoralizing the forces.Either way Govt is in a precarious position as (BABBUS) they never expected such a tough stand from CAPTIVE AUDIENCE(Our forces so far and babbus carried those preconceived notions...but no more here after ever)........In what a pitiable situation this Govt has been pushed by a handfuls of know it all calculators....and mind you they call themselves ELITE.Shame on them.


ONE MORE THING HERE:


A lot of space has been used by some knowledgeable and some irritated friends in discussing the issues not related to the topic raised by Brigadier BLS sir which i find waste of time and energy.
(a) The fifth pay commission had fixed the salaries of armed forces officers taking the rank pay as a part of pay for all purposes including pensions. In large number of cases officers’ basic pay was reduced on promotion (I am one such case) since rank pay was increased. The total of basic plus rank pay remained almost same. Hence it will be plain absurdity to exclude rank pay for working out any equivalents. The SPC creates a serious mistake on this count which has been only partly corrected.
(b) Whatever be the reasons or logic we cannot have a situation where an individual belonging to one particular service drawing lesser pay starts drawing higher salary after SPC. This has happened in case of Lt Cols. They were drawing substantially higher salary than the officers in the scale of 14300-400-18000. Post SPC these officers will now draw substantially higher salary than the Lt Cols. These officers will not only draw higher salary but also much higher grade pay which is reflective of the status. Can this situation be accepted? Absolutely not.
(c) Let me also bring out the facts that the fate of Cols and Brigadiers isn’t much better. It was proudly declared by our esteemed politicians and bureaucrats that anomaly has been removed by granting higher grade pay to Cols and Brigadiers hiding the facts that the grade pay for other services have also been revised upwards. The anomaly has remained as it was earlier. Make no mistakes. The status of Cols and Brigadiers has also been lowered even after so called anomalies removal.
(d) One good thing done by the pay commission is granting full pension on completion of 20 years service. Wait for a few years. All capable, competent and self conscious Lt Cols (Can’t think of becoming Cols) will be seeking retirements, rather than accepting degradation of their status. Let me assure you that not many of them will encourage their children to join the fighting force unless of course they cannot find any other job. I am the one who did not allow my daughter to join services, seeing my own frustration. I have no regrets for my decision since she is doing far better in life.
Well it is high time the country takes note of the justify expectations of the men in uniform and save this valuable institution before the rot sets in and the damage becomes irreversible. Let us have the best young men for the armed forces. That can happen only if their aspirations are met



PS: My heart goes out for our Jawaans.....nice that Govt has consented to the one demand regarding 70% weight age towards pension.
 
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http://reportmysignal.blogspot.com/2008/09/kapil-dev-joins-territorial-army.html#links
Posted without comment
 BLS



SCPC: A Soldiers Lament to the President

While we awaited the pay commission bounty
The IAS got there first
and now, President Aunty
We have no choice but to be blunt
We are third class citizens,
though manning the front
The bureaucrats who decide things for us
Have truly shown their animus
And we who defend our dear nation
Have again been shown our lower station.

When the seventh pay commission comes around
We will no doubt lose more ground
Then Colonels would equal civilian clerks
In salary, status and other perks
Generals will wait on worn out chairs
Outside IAS Officers' lairs.

A once proud service is now so degraded
That though their uniforms still be braided
They are demoralised and wait to retire
And then take up their pens to fire
At those they served all their life
In times of peace and in times of strife.

The lesson from this, our children we tell
Is that, if in life you want to do well
And this, I am sure, every soldier endorses
Do not ever join the forces.

Just become a doctor or a pleader
Perhaps, even better, a political leader
Or an IAS officer, with his red light
Why face the enemy, why risk a fight
When the nation you guard
does not value you much
And treats you merely like a handy crutch
To support the government in civil disorder
Or when the enemy threatens the border
But when the time comes to share the pie
They get all antsy and ask - why???

So Madam President, hear us out
A change is going to come about
And we, the most courageous of all
Will soon be replaced by the petty and small
Alas, your government would be squarely to blame
For this avoidable nationa
 
Who is Responsible?

Dear Brig,

It is a nice composition, but my question is as to who is responsible for our own situation. I would say we are responsible for this situation. Our senior officers over the decades, looked for green pastures after retirement and thus kept towing the line of politicians. There is no point in crying for it, and feeling the self pity.

The time is to rise to the occassion and take back your rights. We had been fighting for our country, let us for the moment fight for our rights as well.

Keeping quite had been the sign of weakness. For their personal gains, senior officers over a period of time have led us to this situation. Let us all, serving and retired, stand together and tell them "Enough of humiliation". The army chief needs to be moved up to fourth or fifth place in the heirarchy with equal status to Naval and Air Chief.
 
Degradation of Lt Cols in 6th CPC

What defence orffrs r asking, i beleive mejority does not know. Everyone is thinking that some additional reqt is there to compensate their nature of job. It is not there, i m giving the correct figures and comparison of Lt Col is with Suprenteding Engineer of IES cadre(not even IAS, which is more serious)

3rd CPC
Lt Col – Rs 1700
SE – Rs 1500

4th CPC
Lt Col – Rs 4700
SE – Rs 3700

5th CPC
Lt Col – Rs 15,100
SE – Rs 14,300

6th CPC
Lt Col – Rs 15900 – 39100 with Grade Pay of Rs 7600
SE – Rs 37400 – 67000 with Grade Pay of Rs 8700


A class 6 student can tell the above degradation of Lt Cols. And chances r there that EE scale will over take the LT Cols in 7th pay commission.

In this condition what will be first choice of BE graduate. Corps of Signals/EME/Engrs in Army OR Other Engg dept in civil
 
· Who saved Kashmir in 1948. Indian troops air lifted a few hours before the Raiders could enter Srinagar !!
· Who saved Amritsar and area West of Beas River in 1965 and carried the War to enemy's heartland !!
· Who liberated East Pakistan, helped form Bangladesh in 1971 and bombarded Karachi !!
· Who suffered over 500 casualties in Kargil in 1999 but evicted the intruders from our sacred land !!
· Who were the first to arrive and help survivors after Bhuj Earth Quack in 2001!
· Who were the ones to help effectively in Tusami in 2004 !!
· Who are the ones now evacuating people in Bihar floods and providing them food and water as also medical aid !!
·[FONT=&quot] Who are the ones fighting terrorism in J&K and insurgency in the East for years and years !! Every day our brave officers and men are losing their lives in faithfully carrying out their duties. Situations created due to greed, lethargy, dis interest of the Politicians and the Bureaucracy, who are just not interested in resolving such issues.

9. How short can be the memory of even enlightened people like you and how ungrateful you can be! Sirs, Defence Services are the sentinels of this Country and in case they are demoralized, the safety and security of the Nation cannot be assured.

10. Let us keep the status and Izzat of the Defence Forces high. The Press/ media have a very crucial role to play to keep reminding

Pasted with no comments from me BLS
[/FONT]
 
sanjeev_balyan said:
What defence orffrs r asking, i beleive mejority does not know. Everyone is thinking that some additional reqt is there to compensate their nature of job. It is not there, i m giving the correct figures and comparison of Lt Col is with Suprenteding Engineer of IES cadre(not even IAS, which is more serious)

3rd CPC
Lt Col – Rs 1700
SE – Rs 1500

4th CPC
Lt Col – Rs 4700
SE – Rs 3700

5th CPC
Lt Col – Rs 15,100
SE – Rs 14,300

6th CPC
Lt Col – Rs 15900 – 39100 with Grade Pay of Rs 7600
SE – Rs 37400 – 67000 with Grade Pay of Rs 8700


A class 6 student can tell the above degradation of Lt Cols. And chances r there that EE scale will over take the LT Cols in 7th pay commission.

In this condition what will be first choice of BE graduate. Corps of Signals/EME/Engrs in Army OR Other Engg dept in civil
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During 4th PC unit was commanded by Lt. Col and now a days unit is commanded by Col. So there is reduction in duties and responsibilities of the job of Lt. Col. So now the job of SE should be compared with Col.
If I am wrong then you may please correct me.
 
Views of Others

Dear Members,

Here are the views from some officers. I guess, it might be a good idea to practice what he says, I quote:

Dear News Room,

I am sure that you must have received number of reponses to your request for views about Defence being non-plus on the revised pay in the 6th Pay commission. My mail is for those citizens who have expressed their views aginst it i.e. that the defence is unneccessarily raising a concern.

For these citizens I suggest that they volunteer themself to have just a 3 months of tenure in the field areas, cut off from there kith and kins , unable to attend the need of their families , functions and funerals and the stark reality of the uncertainity of life / limb for the sake of security , safety and peace of the nation and it's people.

Regards,
Col Arvind Saksena (Retd)
 
Do you have it in you ..

Well, its quire unfair to compare apples with oranges as Sid stated but still Army is most respected & very less corrupted instituation. The Dignity, Pride & honor associated with the Unifrom is matchless which u just cant get else where be it Police, IAS or like that.

The life of Army Officer is quite disciplined, dynamic and full of hardships while IAS officers are lathargic & addicted to luxaries. Since margin for error is Nil in Army so Officers gotta be agile, fighting fit from both mind & body while most of IAS officers are more of sissy & dull !

This is quite understandable why Army Officers are proud of their job & put it before all others cuz they serve for the most prestigious & dignified institution with full zeal & discipline ... and in the end when all fails Army is called to take care of situations, mind u ! Thats why Army Officers are superior & will always consider their service above all !!

It takes guts, zeal & passion to serve in Army that's why after reitrment they hardly adjust with civil life cuz most of civilans live life without zeal n enthu !!

No wonder Army Rocks & Army Officers r far far better then other civil service officers!

Rock on
Jit
 
ygulia said:
During 4th PC unit was commanded by Lt. Col and now a days unit is commanded by Col. So there is reduction in duties and responsibilities of the job of Lt. Col. So now the job of SE should be compared with Col.
If I am wrong then you may please correct me.
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Who told you this please.In fact responsibilities of this rank has increased many a fold.30% Ltcols are still commanding Bns and another 25-30 % are commanding independent units.More over the complete staff function of three services is on the shoulders of this echelon.They lead in any operation,Do second in command and are training officers and instructors class B in various cat A institutes.Little knowledge plays havoc with ones perception.


With the same yard stick ......what is the status of a Deputy commissioner today? Do educate us please!
 
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Finally Prime Minister intervened from foreign soil seeing the situation going out of hand and has set up a high power ministerial committee to look into the grievances of the forces.It is late but still some saving grace for the Government.Hope they do not play some new game now...? God bless the forces!
 
devdahiya said:
Who told you this please.In fact responsibilities of this rank has increased many a fold.30% Ltcols are still commanding Bns and another 25-30 % are commanding independent units.More over the complete staff function of three services is on the shoulders of this echelon.They lead in any operation,Do second in command and are training officers and instructors class B in various cat A institutes.Little knowledge plays havoc with ones perception.


With the same yard stick ......what is the status of a Deputy commissioner today? Do educate us please!
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Mr. Dahiya, first of all I will advise you to use soft language. Secondly, I am neither your subordinate or otherwise that the way you write will be tolerated. I have written above(Post#13) and you distorted my comments(in your post#17 by adding the following: "because there is lack of intelligence there") but I kept quite. Again you are taking the advantage, if you are frustated then I am not the one who can be taken as granted.
You can reply in simple and plain words and I am not answerable to you that you can use words: 'who told you'.
 
ygulia said:
Mr. Dahiya, first of all I will advise you to use soft language. Secondly, I am neither your subordinate or otherwise that the way you write will be tolerated. I have written above(Post#13) and you distorted my comments(in your post#17 by adding the following: "because there is lack of intelligence there") but I kept quite. Again you are taking the advantage, if you are frustated then I am not the one who can be taken as granted.
You can reply in simple and plain words and I am not answerable to you that you can use words: 'who told you'.
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Your concerns taken care of.....do the same to others hereafter.Okie.Bless!


Kill your false ego....it will help!
 
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I personaly feel that this topic should not have been posted here where people donot know, donot want to know & have no interest & regards for defence services. I think, no two persons or services are equal, similarly defence services cannot be compared with any other service, what to talk about IAS. Defence service is a totally different way of life, which fortunates lead. I hope people know that military service is oldest service in the world & it has given a lot to the society beside keeping everybody safe to progress, to prepare for IAS/IIT/Medical etc & to talk any thing, on any thing & in any manner. I agree that written exam for civil service requires higher level of theoritical knowledge, grasping power & better style of answering on paper. Similarly the SSB is far, far difficult & very superior level of interview than the interview for IAS or other any service. because the requirement of IAS & Defence service (officer) is totally different. Any person with theoritical knowledge, higher IQ & better language can make to IAS, even if physically disabled/ weak. Where as higher IQ is equally required for defence officer plus the individual has to have very higher level of physical standard & leadership quilities (OLQ). A defence officer has to have a balance personalty. An IAS needs to have a clerical apptitude where as defence officer needs to have leadership qualities. An IAS is secretary to the leader where as defence officer is a leader himself. One can talk lot on the topic but there is no point in discussing here. It is true that today IAS people are more powerful, more united & running the govt. IAS are making ful use of reservation policy also. Thanks to God there is no reservation in defence. Salary- friends there is pay protection act of 1948 for defence officers according to which salary of defence officers had been always more than IAS, certainly there has to be some reason for higher salary. Rest in next, with regards.
 
Uncleji, Concur with ya word by word ... very well explained !! :)

Fateh said:
I personaly feel that this topic should not have been posted here where people donot know, donot want to know & have no interest & regards for defence services. I think, no two persons or services are equal, similarly defence services cannot be compared with any other service, what to talk about IAS. Defence service is a totally different way of life, which fortunates lead. I hope people know that military service is oldest service in the world & it has given a lot to the society beside keeping everybody safe to progress, to prepare for IAS/IIT/Medical etc & to talk any thing, on any thing & in any manner. I agree that written exam for civil service requires higher level of theoritical knowledge, grasping power & better style of answering on paper. Similarly the SSB is far, far difficult & very superior level of interview than the interview for IAS or other any service. because the requirement of IAS & Defence service (officer) is totally different. Any person with theoritical knowledge, higher IQ & better language can make to IAS, even if physically disabled/ weak. Where as higher IQ is equally required for defence officer plus the individual has to have very higher level of physical standard & leadership quilities (OLQ). A defence officer has to have a balance personalty. An IAS needs to have a clerical apptitude where as defence officer needs to have leadership qualities. An IAS is secretary to the leader where as defence officer is a leader himself. One can talk lot on the topic but there is no point in discussing here. It is true that today IAS people are more powerful, more united & running the govt. IAS are making ful use of reservation policy also. Thanks to God there is no reservation in defence. Salary- friends there is pay protection act of 1948 for defence officers according to which salary of defence officers had been always more than IAS, certainly there has to be some reason for higher salary. Rest in next, with regards.
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