Lt Gen V K Singh superceded by BHARDWAJ as Vice Army Chief

[raj2rif]

I am Surprised

Agreed bro, Jats are treated as second class citizens subject to bias, prejudice and degradation by other Indians. North India ki area mein refugees, punjabi, baniya raj hae. Jats ko bus conductor, sipahi ke haisyat se jana jaata hae. I have never heard baniya, refugee showing deshbhakti for hindustan as much as the jat kaum. But baniya, refugee is ruling. Yahaan bhi aisa hae hae. Even Jats love for jats bhi dikhawe ke liye hae.

Dear Members,
On this forum itself, I have read to contradictory things, which do not connect with each other
On one hand we say that Jats are most powerful people, and are most intelligent, and on the other hand we say that every one has exploited us. If we are powerful, and intelligent how come every tom dick and harry is expoiting us?
Can any one explain to me this disconnect.

Well, if you see the history of Indian Army, many people from other communities have shown exemplary braverly and deshbhakti. Late Maj Vivek Gupta, MVC is one example.

 

[amritkharb]

Dear Members,
On this forum itself, I have read to contradictory things, which do not connect with each other
On one hand we say that Jats are most powerful people, and are most intelligent, and on the other hand we say that every one has exploited us. If we are powerful, and intelligent how come every tom dick and harry is expoiting us?
Can any one explain to me this disconnect.

Well, if you see the history of Indian Army, many people from other communities have shown exemplary braverly and deshbhakti. Late Maj Vivek Gupta, MVC is one example.

Simple, because we have been stereotyped. We have not educated ourselves well. And we fight with each other. And we are naive, and sometimes too honest (unlike the baniyas and refugees) and may be some of us have not made an effort to develop our self-confidence and may be we are not so sophisticated. You can add more to this.
Yeh duniya sharif aur imandar ki nahi hae.(fauj ko shayad jhod kar)

 

[badgujarsampat]

The ONLY fault by JATS:

We have forgotten the principle of SEPARATISM , which is essential to move ahead.

Haryana is moving ahead becoz of application of 'PRINCIPLE OF SEPARATISM' from PUNJAB.

Jab tak apna nyaara kam nahin karoge tab tak you can't measure progress...

 

[raj2rif]

Why Blame Others??

Simple, because we have been stereotyped. We have not educated ourselves well. And we fight with each other. And we are naive, and sometimes too honest (unlike the baniyas and refugees) and may be some of us have not made an effort to develop our self-confidence and may be we are not so sophisticated. You can add more to this.
Yeh duniya sharif aur imandar ki nahi hae.(fauj ko shayad jhod kar)

Dear Mr. Kharab,
I am happy that you have been honest about it. The question is "Why Blame Others" for our own weaknesses.
While I essentially don't agree with all the points mentioned by you. Being honest is a good thing and not a bad thing. To me, we are in a situation that we are is " Because we are not honest with ourselves". More often than not we think about ourselves something that we actually are not. It is not what we think, it is what we do, that matters. We judge ourselves with different measures, and others with different scale. More often than not we pass judgement without knowing the facts and that is not being "Sharif" it is being foolish. We don't take criticism in the right spirit.
We need to start believing in ourselves. Forget what others are doing, do what is right legally, and humanely. Rather than criticizing every one else, we must try and improve on our weaknesses some of which you have already mentioned. Let me assure you, world would be that much better.

 

[raj2rif]

Double Standards!!!!

The ONLY fault by JATS:

We have forgotten the principle of SEPARATISM , which is essential to move ahead.

Haryana is moving ahead becoz of application of 'PRINCIPLE OF SEPARATISM' from PUNJAB.

Jab tak apna nyaara kam nahin karoge tab tak you can't measure progress...

We like being separated from Punjab, but we don't like Pakistan being separated from India? We don't like if Kashmir or Punjab want to separate from India.
We have double standards for every thing. When any thing wrong is done by Jat leaders, we ignore it by saying, that they have to do this to survive, or say every one else is doing it and we try to justify, but when the same thing is done by others, the hell breaks loose.
Principle of separatism: that is why we don't have joint families any more. Think about the benefits of joint families, vs. Nyara Kaam in each household.

 

[cooljat]

Very valid reply Uncle ji, totally in sync with your thoughts.

India is full of hypocrites and double std people so are we Jats ! We talk about Gandhi dynasty in politics but we forget Ch Charan Singh, Hooda dynasty. We criticize others but can't take positive criticism if targeted upon us.

But this Separation thought is not acceptable at all, I strongly condemn your viewpoint Mr Deswal. You are sounding like anti-Indian element. Country comes first, before anything ... so stop spreading your ill thoughts here on JL.

We like being separated from Punjab, but we don't like Pakistan being separated from India? We don't like if Kashmir or Punjab want to separate from India.
We have double standards for every thing. When any thing wrong is done by Jat leaders, we ignore it by saying, that they have to do this to survive, or say every one else is doing it and we try to justify, but when the same thing is done by others, the hell breaks loose.
Principle of separatism: that is why we don't have joint families any more. Think about the benefits of joint families, vs. Nyara Kaam in each household.

 

[bazardparveen]

I am having intuition that there is more Castism in Army. Because there nomenclature also support that. Aur yeh bhi sahi lag raha hai ki Jat ko CoAS nahi banaya gaya hai toh sirf uski jaat hone kie vajah se. ya phir there is always policy to keep them at lower level only.

So I would say that Dont Just Join for deshbhakti but rise over there. Main Motto should be Higher the:rock rank,higher the salary and most in lime light, but only positive way.




Aur Jaat ho Toh Jaat ko uthao.
Dont think you are spreading castism, its already there and working against us.

Don't use your intuition to blame prestigious Indian Army. Because of them you and me debating here. Army is not made by only JATS but by Indians.
What type of rise you are talking about? I don't think there is anything higher than country pride.
and remember money is something not everything. At the end of the day it matters how you earn that money.

 

[rinkusheoran]

Don't use your intuition to blame prestigious Indian Army. Because of them you and me debating here. Army is not made by only JATS but by Indians.
What type of rise you are talking about? I don't think there is anything higher than country pride.
and remember money is something not everything. At the end of the day it matters how you earn that money.

I do agree that indian army is not only of JATS but indians , but whether u hate it or ignore it but there is casteism in all millitary and para-military forces.

bhai yahain baat jativaad ki hai aur vo hai isse aapp mano ya na mano. Jaise shuturmurg apni aankhey band kar leta hai aur sochta hai ki usse koi dekh nahi sakta to koi kya kar sakta. din mein agar ullu ko kuch dikhta nahi hai to usme suraj maharaj ki koi galati nahi hai.

Otherwise how u can expalin what happened to Major subeg singh bhangu( ASVM & PSVM) and why some arora was given credit instead of him after Mukti bahini. This is one of incidents aur chhote chhote incidents to bahut sunte hain.

 

[prashantacmet]

I do agree that indian army is not only of JATS but indians , but whether u hate it or ignore it but there is casteism in all millitary and para-military forces.

bhai yahain baat jativaad ki hai aur vo hai isse aapp mano ya na mano. Jaise shuturmurg apni aankhey band kar leta hai aur sochta hai ki usse koi dekh nahi sakta to koi kya kar sakta. din mein agar ullu ko kuch dikhta nahi hai to usme suraj maharaj ki koi galati nahi hai.

Otherwise how u can expalin what happened to Major subeg singh bhangu( ASVM & PSVM) and why some arora was given credit instead of him after Mukti bahini. This is one of incidents aur chhote chhote incidents to bahut sunte hain.

bhai chahae tu bolta bolta talas jaa..par inki samajh main kona aawe yaa baat..yeh padhe like jat hai...jaativaad ku kona maante..inke hawa bhar raakhyi hai...mainstream main aane chahe re yeh.........chahe doosri biraadri aale inhe talgad kar de..par yeh fer bhi nuoey kahwengey..."that jat didn't deserve"

 

[rinkusheoran]

bhai chahae tu bolta bolta talas jaa..par inki samajh main kona aawe yaa baat..yeh padhe like jat hai...jaativaad ku kona maante..inke hawa bhar raakhyi hai...mainstream main aane chahe re yeh.........chahe doosri jaat aale inhe talgad kar de..par yeh fer bhi nuoey kahwengey..."that jat didn't deserve"

haan ye ghanne padh liye hain lekin ek baat nahi pata inhe ki jab iss jatland pe hain to jativaad to hain inn sab mein. shuturmurg bann rahe sain..lekin koi puche jativaad nahi hai to aade ke aam beche sain
ye bhai janni ko mante hain lekin bete ko nahi.

 

[badgujarsampat]

India ne manne hai tu....

Very valid reply Uncle ji, totally in sync with your thoughts.

India is full of hypocrites and double std people so are we Jats ! We talk about Gandhi dynasty in politics but we forget Ch Charan Singh, Hooda dynasty. We criticize others but can't take positive criticism if targeted upon us.

But this Separation thought is not acceptable at all, I strongly condemn your viewpoint Mr Deswal. You are sounding like anti-Indian element. Country comes first, before anything ... so stop spreading your ill thoughts here on JL.

 

[cooljat]

.

Koi Shaq ??? ... for me Country comes first ! I'm Indian first than a blue blooded Jat !

India ne manne hai tu....

 

[anilsangwan]

Very valid reply Prashant, totally in 'sync' with your thoughts.

bhai chahae tu bolta bolta talas jaa..par inki samajh main kona aawe yaa baat..yeh padhe like jat hai...jaativaad ku kona maante..inke hawa bhar raakhyi hai...mainstream main aane chahe re yeh.........chahe doosri biraadri aale inhe talgad kar de..par yeh fer bhi nuoey kahwengey..."that jat didn't deserve"

 

[jagmohan]

How Sad...

Dear All,

The discussion here now appears to have gone from logical to being sarcastic. All kinds of people who have little or no knowledge of a particular subject become experts when it comes to making conclusive remarks. Now we have reached a level where the ones who were educated by great sacrifices of their parents and the larger family are being made to appear as the ones who are responsible for all the ills of society. I mean, can we please discuss a matter without displaying our sarcasm and commenting how everyone except oneself is an idiot. People here are commenting on their forefathers, caste, Army and what not without applying their minds.

Is there casteism in the Army? Those who ask this question don’t understand the working of the forces at all. If there was casteism in the forces we would have continued to be slaves, though some remain slaves even now. Why did our grandfathers fight for the British in the World Wars? May I request members to ask their or other’s grandfathers who did. Mine didn’t, otherwise I would have given you the answer.

Why there are regiments in Indian Army on the basis of castes? I have doubt on the mental faculties of the person who asks this question. There are some people here who have to question everything.

Army degenerating before Kargil? Can you prove it? Kargil conflict was the simplest military operation. Winter posts are vacated by both Indians and Pakistanis in all sectors along the LOC. Come summer and both side occupy them. The Pakis occupied our vacated posts in the winter. We found out in summer. Yes, couple of Commanding Officers, Brigadiers and Generals failed in their duty. And one of the General responsible was a Jat. Once the extent of intrusions was clear, Indian Army attacked against all odds, with inferior equipment and outdated weapon systems and recaptured the areas. Period? What is so complicated about Kargil? I can say it with all conviction that no other Army would have been able to recapture those heights given the same equipment and weapons. But some intellectuals have to make a living by making a mountain out of a molehill.

What about Maj Gen Shubeg Singh (a Major during 1971 war) and Mukti Bahni? What do you mean some Arora taking credit? That Arora was Lt Gen and Commanding the Eastern Army during the 1971 war. General plans and soldiers execute. This is true through out the world.

And now someone is painting the whole Jatland as casteist. Sometimes I really pity the kind of comments people make. I hope members realise that such comments give away your educational background, upbringing, environment and the likely future. Don't take out your frustrations here by denigrating another human being, a group, a service or a profession.

I am waiting for the next barrage of personal attacks and comments by experts.

Best regards,

JS Malik

 

[jitender_singh]

casteism toh har jagah hai.. chahe woh corpoarte life ho ya govt job aur ya for defence koi bhi sector issey alag nahee hai..

engg time main ek baar dhaulkuan waale airforce centre par gaya tha forem jama karane , wahan ek apna hi bhai mil gaya ..ussey kaafee der baat hui.. usne bataya bhaisahab jitna corruption defence main hai itna kahin nahee milega ..officer log sabkuch bechkar kha jaate hain..
keh raha thaa in punjabiyon ne toh bilkul hi hadh kar rakhi hai...

 

[ambijat]

Dear All,

The discussion here now appears to have gone from logical to being sarcastic. All kinds of people who have little or no knowledge of a particular subject become experts when it comes to making conclusive remarks...Is there casteism in the Army? Those who ask this question don’t understand the working of the forces at all...Why there are regiments in Indian Army on the basis of castes? I have doubt on the mental faculties of the person who asks this question. There are some people here who have to question everything...Army degenerating before Kargil? Can you prove it?...Sometimes I really pity the kind of comments people make. I hope members realise that such comments give away your educational background, upbringing, environment and the likely future. Don't take out your frustrations here by denigrating another human being, a group, a service or a profession.

I am waiting for the next barrage of personal attacks and comments by experts.

Best regards,

JS Malik

As I take on this debate, I first remind myself of the news of the day and pay my tribute to the martyrdom of Major Akash Singh of the 5th Maratha who laid down his life along with this soldiers while charging the infiltrators.

Now, let me confess this whole quoted discourse aimed at displaying self smartness does not go well down the palette.

The working of the army gets exposed in various forms of petty to sophisticated forms of corruption visible in one of the most shameful ways of squandering taxpayers money, i.e., what happens with the Army ration? or the Arms dealers loitering in Army H/Qs with their BMWs.
And, I bet there is absolutely no casteism when it comes to collective corruption.

The fact that we used improvised howitzers with 40km strike range is a truth so to claim that Kargil was fought with outdated weaponry is being a plain dishontest. The Col should think on that.

Dont try to belittle others training and repository of knowledge of life because it might be possible that you may not even be capable of achieving even half of that. And, let me tell you the narcism that is shown by officers is one of the evidences of the regimentality of attitude that has been hanging in the defence forces.

Best wishes!

 

[dskadyan]

Only one area without castism--- Corruption

Dear All,

The discussion here now appears to have gone from logical to being sarcastic. All kinds of people who have little or no knowledge of a particular subject become experts when it comes to making conclusive remarks. Now we have reached a level where the ones who were educated by great sacrifices of their parents and the larger family are being made to appear as the ones who are responsible for all the ills of society. I mean, can we please discuss a matter without displaying our sarcasm and commenting how everyone except oneself is an idiot. People here are commenting on their forefathers, caste, Army and what not without applying their minds.

Is there casteism in the Army? Those who ask this question don’t understand the working of the forces at all. If there was casteism in the forces we would have continued to be slaves, though some remain slaves even now. Why did our grandfathers fight for the British in the World Wars? May I request members to ask their or other’s grandfathers who did. Mine didn’t, otherwise I would have given you the answer.

Why there are regiments in Indian Army on the basis of castes? I have doubt on the mental faculties of the person who asks this question. There are some people here who have to question everything.

Army degenerating before Kargil? Can you prove it? Kargil conflict was the simplest military operation. Winter posts are vacated by both Indians and Pakistanis in all sectors along the LOC. Come summer and both side occupy them. The Pakis occupied our vacated posts in the winter. We found out in summer. Yes, couple of Commanding Officers, Brigadiers and Generals failed in their duty. And one of the General responsible was a Jat. Once the extent of intrusions was clear, Indian Army attacked against all odds, with inferior equipment and outdated weapon systems and recaptured the areas. Period? What is so complicated about Kargil? I can say it with all conviction that no other Army would have been able to recapture those heights given the same equipment and weapons. But some intellectuals have to make a living by making a mountain out of a molehill.

What about Maj Gen Shubeg Singh (a Major during 1971 war) and Mukti Bahni? What do you mean some Arora taking credit? That Arora was Lt Gen and Commanding the Eastern Army during the 1971 war. General plans and soldiers execute. This is true through out the world.

And now someone is painting the whole Jatland as casteist. Sometimes I really pity the kind of comments people make. I hope members realise that such comments give away your educational background, upbringing, environment and the likely future. Don't take out your frustrations here by denigrating another human being, a group, a service or a profession.

I am waiting for the next barrage of personal attacks and comments by experts.

Best regards,

JS Malik

Col. Sahab hum Padhe Likhe Kasoti par kasne wale log hai. Aur Haan ji our upbringing is so that we still respect your thoughts.

But PLease deshbhakti aur army ko mat jodo, for God Sake no please not this time. We pay for all that duty army men do. army men dont do that in free. We fed them,we give them communcation support, we gave financial support and also we give them moral support too. So we are equaly along with them in each n every fight. Chalo officer logo whan corrupt ho gaye like all other spaces no problem, Whan bhi castism hai chalo sab jagah hai. Un cheezon ko maine kuch nahi kaha.

Main issue phir wahi ka wahi hai ki kya Sirf isliye one person cant be CoAS as he is Jat, Only a Jat cant be. A sikh Can be,Brahman can be but NOT JAT. This is not Castism.This is Highest form of castism rarely practicising in any other field.

Still Jai Jawan Jai Kisan, as these profession are little dirtier and at lower side only Jat are supposed to do that.

 

[bazardparveen]

Col. Sahab hum Padhe Likhe Kasoti par kasne wale log hai. Aur Haan ji our upbringing is so that we still respect your thoughts.

But PLease deshbhakti aur army ko mat jodo, for God Sake no please not this time. We pay for all that duty army men do. army men dont do that in free. We fed them,we give them communcation support, we gave financial support and also we give them moral support too. So we are equaly along with them in each n every fight. Chalo officer logo whan corrupt ho gaye like all other spaces no problem, Whan bhi castism hai chalo sab jagah hai. Un cheezon ko maine kuch nahi kaha.

Main issue phir wahi ka wahi hai ki kya Sirf isliye one person cant be CoAS as he is Jat, Only a Jat cant be. A sikh Can be,Brahman can be but NOT JAT. This is not Castism.This is Highest form of castism rarely practicising in any other field.

Still Jai Jawan Jai Kisan, as these profession are little dirtier and at lower side only Jat are supposed to do that.

dear kadiyan,
you may be right that there is castism or corruption in our armed forces. But atleast show some respect to our soldiers who are dying for us. For a minute just think about the condition in which they are living and the problems they are facing....Our army is highly prestigious organization which bring glory to our country so many times since freedom(47,62,65,71,99). You are talking about we pay them.........I think everybody in this country is paid by tax payer's money. It's our system.

 

[amritkharb]

Can you guys stop these filmi style dialogue baazi along with childish bickering and just discuss only the facts please? Your cooperatin is highly appreciated.

 

[kapdal]

But PLease deshbhakti aur army ko mat jodo, for God Sake no please not this time. We pay for all that duty army men do. army men dont do that in free. We fed them,we give them communcation support, we gave financial support and also we give them moral support too. So we are equaly along with them in each n every fight.

Kadyan Bhai, this is excellent logic. I think you can use the same to take credit for many other things- for the missiles/nuclear technology that scientists develop, for the medals our boxers win, for Chandrayaan, the list is endless!! Wow! If I could think of this logic earlier, I could have had the most unique CV ever before my campus placements.

Main issue phir wahi ka wahi hai ki kya Sirf isliye one person cant be CoAS as he is Jat, Only a Jat cant be. A sikh Can be,Brahman can be but NOT JAT. This is not Castism.This is Highest form of castism rarely practicising in any other field.

As Sunil Lathwal said elsewhere, some people have something to say and some people have to say something. I am not sure if you have been taking cognizance of the facts that have been put before you. Wahi baat ki saari Ramayan sunne ke baad poochho Seeta kiska baap tha. Let me summarize a few points, if they help (There are other points as well, but if these don't convince you, the rest don't have a chance):

1. The name this thread started with- Lt. Gen VK Singh is not a Jat. Whatever he is, he is not yet been superceded in the real sense, as Vice Chief of staff is more of a ceremonial position. Lt. General Bhardwaj is a first rate officer and not lacking in merit, even if his caste doesn't find favor with you.

2. The case of Gen. Kadyan has been explained in detail on the forum, if you had cared to read. Indeed, I don't think even Lt. Gen Kadyan (who is still a public figure) or anyone close to him ever used the caste factor to explain his supercession. You may want to believe it was because of caste, but you have nothing to go by but your intuition. One day Nick Leeson had an intuition that he'd make big money punting on currencies. All he left behind was a broken bank.

3. There have been Brahman Generals that have been superceded like Lt Gen. Sinha. There would be worse instances from other castes. What about the only Navy Chief to be sacked, Admiral Bhagwat? And you are raising a hue and cry about discrimination against Jats in the armed forces. Jats who still have a regiment in their own name! (And a convoluted logic is going on that uses the regimental names like Jat regiment to establish the presence of casteism in the Army. And then the presence of casteism is used to argue that Jats have been discriminated against!! Amazing!) I wonder what your reaction would have been had you been a Muslim or a SC. Forget chief of staff, just find out what is their representation in the armed forces.

4. This is the most important one. There are two members here who have probably served more years in armed forces than you have been on earth for. Both members are Jats as well. They have nothing to gain by proving that casteism was not a factor in the cases being mentioned here. Indeed, they may have actually gained your sympathy/appreciation, had they claimed that being Jats, they too were discriminated against. Did it ever occur to you, why they are taking a position based on principle rather than choosing the convenient option of "going with the junta opinion" in this debate? Lest I am misunderstood, let me clarify that I am not in favor of taking anyone's word blindly, whatsoever is his/her authority. But once credentials/motives have been established, logical explanation with evidence stated, you still want to stick to your ultimate logic of "If a Jat has not been CoAS,then Jats must have been discriminated against". Indeed. Guess 90% of India has been discriminated against in 90% of places by that logic.