Though i am against any kind of reservation but this statement certainly makes sense to me.
Reservation versus Commonwealth Games
- Thread starter bls31
- Start date
Though i am against any kind of reservation but this statement certainly makes sense to me.
Nitin Sir,
I still dont agree on this point infact you are looking at it from a diff perspective and i was from a diff. I was looking it from the perspective of "how many more jats would get job". And you are looking at it "what is the percentage of these additinal "job getter" among jat youth. Again I dont agree that you should use ur base of jat youth as 50% of total population rather u should use the total no of jat job applicants I mean the people who really wanted that job.
I asked u " a practical stragery in the current scenerio" and certainly in present scenerio reservation for jat makes sense. As Sunil explained above. I already agreed on other issues in my earlier post( in fact no one can deny on those poverty, unawareness, education------). I think u missed that but here I was talking about reservation.
May be i am missing something here. Thats y i said "present this with more explaination."
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"fuddu" maine k teraa naam likhaa tha aape pichhnne s ,aur bhaajaniya me koni bhai yo beham galat paal liyaa .....rahi tere is pros/con ki baat to jitt ye baat karni chahiye inki jarurat s udde kran laagrya su .........
Nitin, I appreciate your attempt. But I see quite a few issues. The analysis seems to have in built confirmation bias such that the interpretation is biased to prove the hypothesis (I know most reservation supporters to do the same).
For starters, if we assume ALL govt. jobs/seats in educational institutes (1 lakh each) go to Jats, this analysis would prove that the benefit is still marginal- for example 1 lakh/65 lakh is just 1.5%, so your inference would be that only 1.5% Jat students benefit, which is minimal. I think the key numbers here are 1 lakh (assumed as govt. vacancies in jobs/education) and 1.3 crore/65 lakh, that is population of Jats/Jat students. These assumptions "bull-doze" your conclusions, and the rest of the assumptions can only make a difference in decimal points. So, I'd focus on the bigger assumptions.
I think data/assumptions is the key here. I think population of Jats is higher than 1.3 crore. But whatever it is, you don't need the total Jat population, the "population" (Strictly used in statistical terms) for your analysis ought to be the number of Jats seeking employment. That rules out quite a few people- most of the populace above 35 and below 18. Even between 18 to 35, you have to rule out those who are already employed with no intention to switch and those who have no intention to work (housewives for example). Coming to students, the bracket is even smaller. Something like 18 to 25. Again not all between 18 to 25 become a part of the "population". The biggest number every year is always the fresh school pass-outs. If they don't get in, most drop out of the process next year. So the real "population" would be much smaller. Indeed, education ministry's site puts the number of higher secondary pass outs in 2007 at around 91 lakh. So you can imagine the no. of Jats there- my guess is less than 1 lakh. Page 9 here:
http://education.nic.in/stats/Examresults2007.pdf
I don't agree with the analysis, but I do believe that most of the opportunities would go to those who have the suitable means to pursue them; so mostly urban/rich Jats. It is difficult to put a number on it without a scientific and unbiased analysis. But it is obvious that reservations would help those who are right at the margin of selection. Rather than those who are far from it. And on average, the village/poor youth are far from it. Now, some dedicated village youth would obviously bridge the gap through their hardwork (many do that even without reservations) and gain through reservations. But it doesn't mean that rural Jat would be the primary beneficiaries.
Many people talk about creamy layer. I am not sure how this creamy layer works in practise. It has always been there. But, during my days (5-10 years back), many of the reserved category students at IIT (who also got their fee waived because of poor criteria) were able to buy their own computers and bikes. And had quite a rich lifestyle, comparatively anyways. In India, apart from salaried people, anyone can make up income. But some of these were sons of IAS- so I am not sure why creamy layer didn't even include IAS kids. Can someone explain?
jitender_singh
New member
Those who are opposed to JAT reservation , Can see the social status of Gujjars and Yadavs .
In haryana gujjars are the richest community much more richer than other rural communities. inki shaadiyon main dulhe bi ab helicopter pe aate hain..they are spending so lavishly on marriages .... gifting bmw , mercedes..
well now come back to point .. few jat bhai feel here that if jats are included in obc than will be equivalent to sc/st ..
just check bihar , here baniya community is in obc list .. toh woh kya ab chamaar ho gaye..
I fully agreed reservation is not the only solution for jats , but it is one of them . others are providing better education facilities in rural area, encourage rural kids by providing more scholarships.
par ib karein is sarkar ko toh dhedhon se aage kuch soojhta hi nahee..
In haryana gujjars are the richest community much more richer than other rural communities. inki shaadiyon main dulhe bi ab helicopter pe aate hain..they are spending so lavishly on marriages .... gifting bmw , mercedes..
well now come back to point .. few jat bhai feel here that if jats are included in obc than will be equivalent to sc/st ..
just check bihar , here baniya community is in obc list .. toh woh kya ab chamaar ho gaye..
I fully agreed reservation is not the only solution for jats , but it is one of them . others are providing better education facilities in rural area, encourage rural kids by providing more scholarships.
par ib karein is sarkar ko toh dhedhon se aage kuch soojhta hi nahee..
Not sure what you want to say. Are all gujars rich enough to use helicopters, bmw, etc. and then still use reservations (pls give some numbers)? Or were they poor people, who became rich because of reservations and now are able to use helicopters, bmw, mercedes?
This is too much by any standard...
sunillathwal
New member
Kapil, same question again: What are the negatives?
Another important factor we can NOT ignore is that opportunities (jobs / educational) are at many different levels. Ruralites and urbanites have different priorities as far as jobs are concerned (lets not talk about minority cases, 1-2 urbanite kids doing 'great'). Not many from decent families (urbanite-rich) will apply for constable posts in delhi police or haryana police or jail warden or clerk jobs or BSF jawans or CSIF jawans or hundreds of such jobs. Where as, I have seen around hundred gaabru balak trying for these jobs again and again. Not many of these gabrus are going to challenge an urbanite JAT aspiring for IIT or someone preparing for IIM. Their horizons are limited. as simple as that. I won't say their 'job priorities' are mutually exclusive but (i strongly believe) that these are not concentric circles either [ in Venn diagram terms]!!
Personally, i believe, up to some extent reservation will help such guys too. Aur nahi to kam te kam, fee will be lesser, maximum age mein relaxation and more number of attempts!!
Even if you falsify above argument, and prove that none of the poor or rural jats will be benefited from the reservation, only rich (and hence non-deserving) Jats will be benefited; I have just one question: Whats wrong if a rich (undeserving) Jat get the job instead of another rich (undeserving by the same logics) Yadav, given that inclusion of jat in OBC central list increases the competition among OBC ??
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jitender_singh
New member
Completely endorsed your view. this obc quota is not apply in govt jobs but also in reputed insitutes like IIT,IIM and other PG medical institutes .
jitender_singh
New member
Kapil , that gujjar's marriage description was little bit off topic , the point is they are the rich community in haryana still enjoying the fruits of reservation..
I have also mentioned about the status of yadavs and baniya's reservation in bihar.. you didn't comment on that..?
I have also mentioned about the status of yadavs and baniya's reservation in bihar.. you didn't comment on that..?
Not sure what you want to say. Are all gujars rich enough to use helicopters, bmw, etc. and then still use reservations (pls give some numbers)? Or were they poor people, who became rich because of reservations and now are able to use helicopters, bmw, mercedes?
This is too much by any standard...
Hi Kapil, Thanks for the valuable input. You are absolutely right about the data assumptions here. I was aware that even will all the jobs in pocket, the affect on "total Jat population" would still be miniscule. I also did not articulate a lot on few points, such as that the majority of jobs and educational opportunities are in the pvt sector and we need to tap that area. I was just trying to convey something to my fellow jatlanders that the reservation is not gonna do the "kaya palat" of jat community, there still needs a lot to be done other than reservation to bring the real benefit to the "rural sections". The reservation is indisputably gonna benefit few Jats (rightly pointed out, the marginal cases) but it is also gonna take toll on others with the false hope and with the increased dependency on the reservation as a way of survival. If only people could know that the quality of schooling is the most important factor for the upliftment and bringing the rural section in the category where they can compete.
The thread actually was about the disputable approach for getting the reservation, though few deviations from the main topic were inevitable. I am not against the reservation but I completely condemn the approach to harass the public to get our demands fulfilled. Why should they be made to suffer for potential benefit to one community. It is not worth that. We really need to draw the line. There are other ways to have a strong agitation.
arr.. bhai, helicopters and Mercedes can never be achieved through reservation. There are jats also who also spend exorbitantly on luxuries after the getting crores from land acquisitions. They never spent that amount of money on the proper education of their children or on investing in beneficial ventures. In my village only I have seen poor jats spending thousands and lacs on weapons. It is completely our choice what we do with what we have.
The thread actually was about the disputable approach for getting the reservation, though few deviations from the main topic were inevitable. I am not against the reservation but I completely condemn the approach to harass the public to get our demands fulfilled. Why should they be made to suffer for potential benefit to one community. It is not worth that. We really need to draw the line. There are other ways to have a strong agitation.
arr.. bhai, helicopters and Mercedes can never be achieved through reservation. There are jats also who also spend exorbitantly on luxuries after the getting crores from land acquisitions. They never spent that amount of money on the proper education of their children or on investing in beneficial ventures. In my village only I have seen poor jats spending thousands and lacs on weapons. It is completely our choice what we do with what we have.
jitender_singh
New member
ohho fir same mistake..that was mentioned only to show the status of gujjars in haryana..
bhai we demand reservation not for me and you , but for needy jat bhai..
on other threads jitender hooda have clearly put his points .. why we need reservation .. its an very old topic on jatland..
and seems you have made your entry very late..
and one more thing I am here for JAT cause not for humanity .. for spreading humanity there are lot of other forums available ..
bhai we demand reservation not for me and you , but for needy jat bhai..
on other threads jitender hooda have clearly put his points .. why we need reservation .. its an very old topic on jatland..
and seems you have made your entry very late..
and one more thing I am here for JAT cause not for humanity .. for spreading humanity there are lot of other forums available ..
Sunil,
I accept your argument that some benefit would be there to rural folks- I had mentioned that in my post. It is not a 0% or 100% game that some people on either side of the debate try to project. I have relatives who have tried and succeeded/failed in DP/HP type jobs that you mention. I agree benefit in such jobs would be more for rural folks as a) qualification is only metric/12th pass and b) there is physical exam as well. But surely, these are not the only jobs we want to target (as such Jats anyways would be the most represented community in these jobs). As you progressively increase the qualifications (no need to go to IIT/IIM/IAS), the equation shifts in favor of the more privileged. Studies on reservations in India have shown that those who need them the most are the least equipped to use them. So the benefits, more often than not, go to the creamy layer (I don't mean helicopter/BMW owners. Relatively speaking, even owning a tractor/car is creamy enough). Nevertheless, I accept that some benefit is there.
I agree with your logic that merit would improve within reserved category (irrespective of urban/rural). No arguments about that.
I have 4 issues, mentioned earlier, so would say in brief. This is apart from the fact that I am fundamentally against reservations- but I think that position is shared by many supporters of reservations.
1. 17 years have been spent asking for this. Surely, there is a cost in terms of time, energy and resources. The cost is borne by those who fight hoping to get some benefit and don't spend that time/energy/resources in exploring alternatives. This excludes most people here as they are supporting/opposing from the sideline without bearing the cost. It also excludes those who are not looking for benefits from the process and have "higher aims" like social service, fighting for the cause, etc. How many 18-25 year olds should waste their precious years, hoping for something to come out of this. The leadership had failed many of those in the last 17 years. Even IIT/IAS have fixed attempts so that people try for alternatives after some time.
2. I think reservations bring a culture of entitlement to the community. Of getting the fruits with little less hard work. Most people work hard because of tough competition and not because they like to work hard. I know it is not a cake walk in reserved category either and OBC is not same as SC/ST. But OBC is not general as well. I have seen the "reserved" folk not putting the extra effort and enjoying as they are comfortable that life won't be tough otherwise. It is a bit like the jobless people in the western countries. They are well provided for by the state, so they don't even bother to find work. You can imagine the culture in such a society. It is not something that'd be apparent when we are attracted by short term gains, but long-term effects could be very negative.
3. There is an inherent bias in general categories against the reserved ones. Even if the actual difference in merit is not significant, the perceived difference is. Again, this would be more apparent as you move up the qualification chain. Success of the community should also indicated by what heights its members achieve in their respective professions. I think the reserved tag would impact negatively in that respect (even if you didn't use reservation, when you meet a SC, it is assumed he has used reservation).
4. As you said, lots of gabrus would happily take the DP/HP jobs. I am afraid reservations would tilt the community towards jobs that have reservations. There is a lot of bhed-chaal in any society. When X would get a DP job through reservation, then Y who lives closeby and is 2 years away from making a career choice is going to be biased towards the same choice. Now Y may have aptitude and skills for something entirely different, probably better. I accept such bhed-chaal happens anyways. But do we want to add to the effect in favor of reserved jobs, when the economy is fundamentally going through a change, such that private sector employment would be much more lucrative in future?
Jats are already stereotyped as farmers/fighters. The rural community is more at danger of getting strait-jacketed into some particular type of jobs, unless they are provided with facilities and infrastructure to compete at par with urban population.
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Because there is nothing to comment on from my side. I have never said that Jats deserve reservation more or less compared to the examples you have quoted. It seemed a bit odd that Gujars traveling in helicopters would be using reservations or that many Gujars would have that lifestyle- hence I commented there.
sunillathwal
New member
Kapil, a couple of points: 1. Take-in ratio is quite high in most jobs and as you said OBC is not SC/ST, benefit of being in OBC is more in terms of seats than in terms of 'lower threshold'. Complacency is be of no use-- I think those 10vi, 12vi pass know this well. Also private sector is NOT totally immune to reservation. To get a lucrative job in private sector, you need a degree from a decent college. You would agree that some of your not-so-deserving batch mates got into IIT, availed best resources and also got placed somewhere. What you or I think of them has no significance. Even you and I would do "Hi. hay.. nice going man.. whats new" whenever we meet them. Fact remains-- they are leaving a better life (than they would have otherwise)!!
2. I don't see any correlation between 'reservation' and 'providing infrastructure'. I mean how these two are even related? Providing reservation does not mean that govt can't provide proper infrastructure to rural areas. We have 50% of the population is under reservation-- Is this the reason of poor infrastructure? If govt has the funds to provide facilities and infrastructure, it can go ahead. Reservation costs nothing in terms of capital. [well, almost nothing]
Similar kind of argument was given by some members that Jats should do business; entrepreneurship will make life better for Jats, not the reservation; why demand job through reservation.. be a entrepreneur. something like that! I agree that Jat should do this 'entrepreneurship' but what it has to do with reservation. Even with reservation (to jats), a Jat brother can start his own business (if he has the means).
What way reservation is a hindrance to entrepreneurship? I mean if one wants to be business he/she can always do that. But not everyone can start his/her own business... there is investment constraint and importantly one has to have a inclination (or desired skills) for business.
Sunil, on point 1, I had already agreed on the short-term gain in terms of seats, jobs in private sector because of reservation in educational institutes, etc.. My reply to this on long-term effects is in points 2 and 4.
In fact, I agree that right now difference in merit between OBC and General is not huge, while General and SC/ST is significant. But isn't it because current OBC generation was competing in General till date, thus being more competitive than SC/ST? What's there to say that after 20 years the relatively high merit of OBC won't be compromised? I agree that currently there is decent competition in OBC, but my argument is over long-term.
What I think of anyone is immaterial, but what general category (that takes recruitment decisions on most private sector and many public sector jobs) thinks is important. There is a real discrimination that happens against reserved category students, which is what I what I was talking about in point 2. I am not saying there is no benefit coming to Jats from reservations. All I am saying is that it is not a simple linear equation and there are negatives as well. Yes, "n1" no. of Jats may get to level X that they otherwise won't have, but it may also restrict the ability of "n2" no. of Jats to get to level Z which is much higher than X.
2. I didn't say there is a correlation between 'providing reservation' and 'providing infrastructure'. Or that infrastructure is poor because of reservations. Indeed, you can provide either without providing the other. But infrastructure ensures effectiveness. You can buy lots of vehicles for rural folks, but if you don't provide the roads, the vehicles are difficult to use. So the relation, that I see is- Ability of rural folks to take advantage of reservations as well as the urban folks is dependent on them having the same facilities/infrastructure.
Business is a specific field. My argument was that focusing only on one route that is primarily old-economy and ignoring alternatives is unwise. As such, reservation doesn't hinder entrepreneurship or anything else. But the hindrance occurs when people develop mindsets of using a particular route. Falaane ne yeh kiya hai. Tu bhi wohi karr. What I call as bhed-chaal. It is not even restricted to reservation. There is a big bhed-chaal to pursue engineering. I was part of it, though I am totally unfit for engg. Still, engg. degree opens your way to new-economy jobs. I think I still had means to take a more informed decision. Would it be wrong to believe that rural folks would be more susceptible to bhed-chaal? And my argument is that if there is a bhed-chaal towards old-economy jobs in rural folks, is that not a negative? I agree it is better than having no job, but again it is not a simple linear equation that it improves the chances of a job, hence it is good (one also should think of people en-masse trying for a particular route and not a better alternative within their ability to achieve).
One should never underestimate the ability of politicians to sell quick-fix, easy solutions. There are several who believe that utopia would be there once reservations are achieved (one did compare it to struggle for independence). So I don't think I am doing anything wrong if I am deflating that bubble a bit.
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The Reservation was started for only Socially backward class. I think the main reason was untouchability so that idea was to provide them reservation for a limited time so that people get used to see them all around them in educational place and jobs. But it was never abolished same way as "hindi" was supposed to be our national language and south indians were given a "limited time' to learn Hindi. But then there were agitation in south and it was never implemented and hence we have two national language - 1 engish and 2 hindi.
Same way the reservation was never abolished due to political will or whatever reason. But than "we" realised that current reservation that time isnt enough and Mandal Commission was established.
They said Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes constitute 22.5% of the country’s population. Accordingly, a pro-rata reservation of 22.5% has been made for them in all services and public sector undertakings under the Central Government. In the States also, reservation for SCs and STs is directly proportional to their population in each State.
And it says:
As stated in the last Chapter (para 12.22) the population of OBCs, both Hindu and non-Hindu, is around 52% of the total population of India. Accordingly 52% of all post under the Central Government should be reserved for them, but this provision may go against the law laid down in a number of Supreme Court judgements wherein it has been held that the total quantum of reservations under Articles 15(4) and 16(4) of the Constitution should be below 50%. In view of this the proposed reservation for OBCs would have to be pegged at a figure which, when added to 22.5% of SCs and STs, remain below 50%. In view of this legal constrain, the commission is obliged to recommend a reservation of 27% only, even though their population us almost twice this figure.
One of the main agrument for reservation is that they want to psychologically uplift the backward community. Say by having a chammar/yadav SDM would give boost to all chammar/yadav community in that area though economically it will only help one family. But economy is not the base behind reservation. It was started more in order to mitigate backwardness of the socially and educationally backward communities and the ST and SC who do not have adequate representation in these services and institutions
To me JAT fit in the above scheme of things
Not everyone was happy about Mandal's recommendation and there were lot of protest(mostly students) but VP singh accepted it due to political reasons.
Their findings are based on 1931 and hence some people are demanding caste based census due to this reason as well. Though jats were also considered as OBC by the commission but they were excluded in the list of OBC reservation. Here is the original post by Raka ji which will give more insight into it http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?24956-Is-Jat-s-Demand-for-Reservation-as-OBC-in-Haryana-justified.
Now Reservation is no doubt a benefit and that’s y its reservation. Demoralised and Lazy students like me even didn’t try for clerical and other jobs saying its hard to get in due to the limited seats and so much reservation. Granted reservation may boost them psychologically to study and compete. Similarly there can be argument against it as well. But still it’s a benefit an added advantage. However no of reserved jobs are limited compared to the total polpulation of a particular community but than again the original idea(before the creamy layer concept) was not to lift them economically but psychologically. Raise them socially. There are lot of arguments In favour and against reservation too.
Reservation system is not an ideal system in present day India we all know that but if socially and economically similar people like gujjars/yadavs are enjoying it and we should also take this advantage and our demand is justified. Also this isnt and wasn’t a movement or process to remove poverty it was basically to provide a fair amount of representation of backward and minorities in administrative services,govt jobs and education institutions. If we don’t get this soon( in a few decads) we will see over representation of other similar communities in these compared to Jats.
It has been challenged in supreme court many times and hence the concept of 'creamy layer' was introduced.
Briefly what this creamy layer is
As per the creamy-layer criteria issued by Government of India DOPT O.M. No.36012/22/93-Est. (SCT) dated 8.9.1993 (also adopted by Supreme Court for recent 27% obc reservation in higher educational institutes in their judgment of writ petition (Civil) no. 265/2006
The Supreme Court has said the benefit of reservation should not be given to OBC children (SCs, STs, and the unreserved are exempt now) of constitutional functionaries such as the president, judges of the Supreme Court and high courts, employees of central and state bureaucracies above a certain level, public sector employees, members of the armed forces and paramilitary personnel above the rank of colonel, lawyers, chartered accountants, doctors, financial and management consultants, engineers, film artists, and authors. OBC children belonging to any family that earns a total gross annual income( from sources other than salary and agricultural land) of 4.5 lakh (the income ceiling for creamy layer raised from 2.5 lakhs to 4.5 lakhs in October 2008) belong to the creamy layer
(1) Actually the creamy-layer limit of Rs. 4.50 lakhs is not applicable to "government servant’s salary income" and "farmer’s agricultural income". It is the creamy-layer limit for "business income" only. As the government servants are to be checked by their post held and farmers by their land holdings hence can not be checked by salary/agricultural income.
(2) In rule- (6) showing creamy-layer limit of Rs.4.50 lakhs the GOI already given the following explanation- "Income from salaries or agricultural land shall not be clubbed with income" because there is a separate rule number (2) & (3) provided on the basis of post held meant for salaried persons & a separate rule number (5) is provided for persons holding agricultural land.
(3) The criterion (2) & (3) clearly speaks that only the following "government servants" will be treated as creamy-layer.
(i) Parents, either of whom is a Class I officer. (Direct Recruitment)
(i) Parents, both of whom are Class II officers. (Direct Recruitment)
(iii) Parents of whom only the husband (father) is a Class II officer and he gets into Class I at the age of 40 or earlier.
(iv) In military, colonel and above.
Note- Other than the above 4, entire OBC government servant of the country will not fall under creamy-layer.
(4) The criteria (5) clearly speak that only following "farmers" will be treated as creamy-layer.
(i) Families having, only irrigated land which is equal to or more than 85% of the statuary ceiling area.
(ii) The rule of exclusion will not apply if the land holding of a family is exclusively un-irrigated.
You can see the comment about rich rural jat was totally absurd as they are measured by land holidngs only business people can probably manipulate their income and even in this lot of things need to be considered. Also Class 1 and 2 officer (Direct Recruitment) like IAS cant enjoy it after this ruling
To claim OBC benefit you would need an OBC certificate + non-creamy layer certificate. Like everything else in india they may be manipulated but I don’t want to get into that.
P.S: This is as per my knowledge and understanding. Also creamy layer is only for OBC. Quote me as per ur own risk
Same way the reservation was never abolished due to political will or whatever reason. But than "we" realised that current reservation that time isnt enough and Mandal Commission was established.
They said Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes constitute 22.5% of the country’s population. Accordingly, a pro-rata reservation of 22.5% has been made for them in all services and public sector undertakings under the Central Government. In the States also, reservation for SCs and STs is directly proportional to their population in each State.
And it says:
As stated in the last Chapter (para 12.22) the population of OBCs, both Hindu and non-Hindu, is around 52% of the total population of India. Accordingly 52% of all post under the Central Government should be reserved for them, but this provision may go against the law laid down in a number of Supreme Court judgements wherein it has been held that the total quantum of reservations under Articles 15(4) and 16(4) of the Constitution should be below 50%. In view of this the proposed reservation for OBCs would have to be pegged at a figure which, when added to 22.5% of SCs and STs, remain below 50%. In view of this legal constrain, the commission is obliged to recommend a reservation of 27% only, even though their population us almost twice this figure.
One of the main agrument for reservation is that they want to psychologically uplift the backward community. Say by having a chammar/yadav SDM would give boost to all chammar/yadav community in that area though economically it will only help one family. But economy is not the base behind reservation. It was started more in order to mitigate backwardness of the socially and educationally backward communities and the ST and SC who do not have adequate representation in these services and institutions
To me JAT fit in the above scheme of things
Not everyone was happy about Mandal's recommendation and there were lot of protest(mostly students) but VP singh accepted it due to political reasons.
Their findings are based on 1931 and hence some people are demanding caste based census due to this reason as well. Though jats were also considered as OBC by the commission but they were excluded in the list of OBC reservation. Here is the original post by Raka ji which will give more insight into it http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?24956-Is-Jat-s-Demand-for-Reservation-as-OBC-in-Haryana-justified.
Now Reservation is no doubt a benefit and that’s y its reservation. Demoralised and Lazy students like me even didn’t try for clerical and other jobs saying its hard to get in due to the limited seats and so much reservation. Granted reservation may boost them psychologically to study and compete. Similarly there can be argument against it as well. But still it’s a benefit an added advantage. However no of reserved jobs are limited compared to the total polpulation of a particular community but than again the original idea(before the creamy layer concept) was not to lift them economically but psychologically. Raise them socially. There are lot of arguments In favour and against reservation too.
Reservation system is not an ideal system in present day India we all know that but if socially and economically similar people like gujjars/yadavs are enjoying it and we should also take this advantage and our demand is justified. Also this isnt and wasn’t a movement or process to remove poverty it was basically to provide a fair amount of representation of backward and minorities in administrative services,govt jobs and education institutions. If we don’t get this soon( in a few decads) we will see over representation of other similar communities in these compared to Jats.
It has been challenged in supreme court many times and hence the concept of 'creamy layer' was introduced.
Briefly what this creamy layer is
As per the creamy-layer criteria issued by Government of India DOPT O.M. No.36012/22/93-Est. (SCT) dated 8.9.1993 (also adopted by Supreme Court for recent 27% obc reservation in higher educational institutes in their judgment of writ petition (Civil) no. 265/2006
The Supreme Court has said the benefit of reservation should not be given to OBC children (SCs, STs, and the unreserved are exempt now) of constitutional functionaries such as the president, judges of the Supreme Court and high courts, employees of central and state bureaucracies above a certain level, public sector employees, members of the armed forces and paramilitary personnel above the rank of colonel, lawyers, chartered accountants, doctors, financial and management consultants, engineers, film artists, and authors. OBC children belonging to any family that earns a total gross annual income( from sources other than salary and agricultural land) of 4.5 lakh (the income ceiling for creamy layer raised from 2.5 lakhs to 4.5 lakhs in October 2008) belong to the creamy layer
(1) Actually the creamy-layer limit of Rs. 4.50 lakhs is not applicable to "government servant’s salary income" and "farmer’s agricultural income". It is the creamy-layer limit for "business income" only. As the government servants are to be checked by their post held and farmers by their land holdings hence can not be checked by salary/agricultural income.
(2) In rule- (6) showing creamy-layer limit of Rs.4.50 lakhs the GOI already given the following explanation- "Income from salaries or agricultural land shall not be clubbed with income" because there is a separate rule number (2) & (3) provided on the basis of post held meant for salaried persons & a separate rule number (5) is provided for persons holding agricultural land.
(3) The criterion (2) & (3) clearly speaks that only the following "government servants" will be treated as creamy-layer.
(i) Parents, either of whom is a Class I officer. (Direct Recruitment)
(i) Parents, both of whom are Class II officers. (Direct Recruitment)
(iii) Parents of whom only the husband (father) is a Class II officer and he gets into Class I at the age of 40 or earlier.
(iv) In military, colonel and above.
Note- Other than the above 4, entire OBC government servant of the country will not fall under creamy-layer.
(4) The criteria (5) clearly speak that only following "farmers" will be treated as creamy-layer.
(i) Families having, only irrigated land which is equal to or more than 85% of the statuary ceiling area.
(ii) The rule of exclusion will not apply if the land holding of a family is exclusively un-irrigated.
You can see the comment about rich rural jat was totally absurd as they are measured by land holidngs only business people can probably manipulate their income and even in this lot of things need to be considered. Also Class 1 and 2 officer (Direct Recruitment) like IAS cant enjoy it after this ruling
To claim OBC benefit you would need an OBC certificate + non-creamy layer certificate. Like everything else in india they may be manipulated but I don’t want to get into that.
P.S: This is as per my knowledge and understanding. Also creamy layer is only for OBC. Quote me as per ur own risk
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jitendershooda
New member
Please find my comments inline ...
satyendra15
New member
I don't see any reason why we "Jats" need reservation in the jobs after availing resrevation al ready in the higher education...If the candidate is deserving he will get it..in fact there shouldn't be any reservation in the jobs ...Also again using destructive methods/means for this petty issue or for that matter any issue should not be supported by the community ..
It is inevitable that people can avoid the discussion on the merits and de-merits of reservation policy on any reservation related thread.
Nevertheless, coming back to the main theme of the thread - reservation is not worth torturing our fellow citizens, treating them as our hostages and shielding behind them. It is a shameful appraoch.
Nevertheless, coming back to the main theme of the thread - reservation is not worth torturing our fellow citizens, treating them as our hostages and shielding behind them. It is a shameful appraoch.