Reservation versus Commonwealth Games

[kapdal]

Please find my comments inline ...

Jitu bhai, most of this boils down to what you have seen or believe in versus what I have seen and believe in. Neither of us can have conclusive evidence to prove it either ways. If you haven't seen people putting too much hope on "magic solutions", doesn't mean the factor doesn't exist. I know cases of hopes being put on not only "bas abki baar mil ke rahegi" reservations, but even things like change of govt (falaane ki sarkaar mein falaana banda bharti karwayega). Now, I am not saying this is highly prevalent. I don't know about that. But it'd be naive to say the factor didn't affect anyone at all in last 17 years.

To rephrase your question for an individual, what should the answer be if someone asks you if he should focus on his studies or participate in the andolan? My answer would be studies. It is not a question of 1-2 days of shram-daan, my experience is that one gets sucked into these things. Especially the youth, who have a disproportionate belief in their ability to change the world.

On the Yadav analysis, I agree that no. of successful candidates increase and also the merit in OBC increases- I had clearly not said anything against that. However, the conclusion that it is because they are working harder is a leap of faith. The number of successful candidates increases as apart from general, they are now also competing in a reserved category, where everyone is not there- so their probability of success is higher (Assuming their efforts remain the same.). Efforts going down and having the benefits of reservation is a complex equation with 2 opposing forces- we can't decide here what the end result would be in terms of successful candidates. Anyways, as I pointed in my reply to Sunil as well, I believe it is going to be a long term trend and not an overnight change. My observations have been on SC/STs who have had this for a longer time. Plus, I am aware and you should note, it is only a theory from my side and not a "factor proved beyond doubt", though based on logic and not dogmatic believes! There is no evidence to prove or disprove this theory, atleast for OBCs.

Point 3, I was NOT talking about emotional value of how General category would see us. If the general category discriminates against the reserved (have quite a bit of anecdotal evidence on this), then it affects the reserved category person's ability to get a job/promotion. And it may affect even those who though an OBC, cleared an exam through general category, as people get stereotyped.

पॉइंट ४, मैं मानता हूँ की लोग अपने लिए सबसे बेहतर काम चाहते हैं. पर इसका यह तात्पर्य नहीं है की लोग भेड़-चाल से प्रभावित नहीं होते. हम सब अपने आस पास क्या हो रहा है उससे प्रभावित होते हैं. इसलिए संभव है की एक जाट गबरू को दिल्ली पुलिस में जाते देख के दूसरा भी गाँठ बाँध ले की उसे वही करना है, और फिर उससे तीसरा. काफी हद तक यह अभी भी होता है. गाँव के बहुत बच्चे काफी पहले से सिपाही, मास्टर, आदि की तरफ अपना दिमाग बना चुके होते हैं. अब यह लोग किसी इंजिनियर से भी प्रभावित हो सकते हैं, और कुछ समय से ऐसा हो भी रहा है कि गाँव में शिक्षा के महत्व और डॉक्टर-इंजिनियर जैसे क्षेत्रों ने थोडा जोर पकड़ा है. पर उसके लिए इनके सामने वैसे उदहारण ज्यादा होने चाहिए. हम दोनों में से किसी की थेओरी शून्य या सौ प्रतिशत सही नहीं हो सकती. आशा है आपकी थेओरी ज्यादा कामयाब रहे. पर मेरा उद्देश्य सिक्के का दूसरा पहलू दिखाना है.

 

[arvindc]

Nevertheless, coming back to the main theme of the thread - reservation is not worth torturing our fellow citizens, treating them as our hostages and shielding behind them. It is a shameful appraoch.

Well, that's the way it has become in India. You look at the autoriksha strike, the blue line bus service strikes and lot more similar kind of strikes, which are all targeted towards torture of a common, office going person. After the recent autoriksha strike they got about 50 % fare hike. So when this tool becomes so successful, it becomes obvious for others to use it.

Also, the political parties use these agitations and strikes for their electoral calculations. At one instance they would reward it by giving even more then what was asked for and at other instance it would punish them by labeling them as "torturing our fellow citizens".

In case of Jat, in my view, the congress party's stand has always been to oppose and oppress them, by doing so, the congress party ensures the votes of so many other communities. It leverages upon the poplar anti-jat sentiments among other communities. Divide and rule has been a very-very successful tool in India since its berth.

They say, there is nothing right or wrong in politics. It all depends on the particular instance.

I and you may find deriving personal gains by putting country’s reputation at stake as totally unacceptable. However, that’s not the way every citizen thinks, including the government. Look at the commonwealth games preparations and the thousands of crores that have been pocketed in the name of commonwealth games.

The decision of holding the games in Delhi itself was a political and economical (party's economy - not the nations) move. Everyone knew about the scarcity of land and infrastructure in Delhi. It could have been very prudent to build the commonwealth games village outside Delhi like what China did. It was an obvious thing. The government took a decision by looking at other calculations rather than the country’s reputation. When looked from this angle, the Jat’s agitation looks like another “justified” political move.

 

[virj]

The demand is fully justified in light of the law of the land and the facts prevailing on the ground. Now the ball is in the court of Indian Govt. as well as Govt. of Haryana. Jat Community hope that both Governments believe in Gandhigiri and will accept their judicious demand without any RASTA ROKO< RAIL ROKO or any bloodshed.

Jat Mahasabah said it earlier but looks like without Rail roko no one cares. Gujjars did it and got listened

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...d-for-Reservation-as-OBC-in-Haryana-justified

 

[nitindev]

Please see the reply below.

Well, that's the way it has become in India. You look at the autoriksha strike, the blue line bus service strikes and lot more similar kind of strikes, which are all targeted towards torture of a common, office going person. After the recent autoriksha strike they got about 50 % fare hike. So when this tool becomes so successful, it becomes obvious for others to use it. There is a difference between strike and victimizing ordinary people. And these are just excuses to justify something which is morally not correct. We did agitations like "गन्ना रोको" and that's a different case. Tomorrow if this tactic doesnt work then are we gonna blow up the people.

Also, the political parties use these agitations and strikes for their electoral calculations. At one instance they would reward it by giving even more then what was asked for and at other instance it would punish them by labeling them as "torturing our fellow citizens". This is our choice as to how much we want to be manipulated and befooled by politicians. There is no harm in giving someone some money or reward but stealing is definetly a crime.

In case of Jat, in my view, the congress party's stand has always been to oppose and oppress them, by doing so, the congress party ensures the votes of so many other communities. It leverages upon the poplar anti-jat sentiments among other communities. Divide and rule has been a very-very successful tool in India since its berth. THis is a very debatable issue and this might be your personal perspective of anti-congress. Majority of jats have been pro congress.

They say, there is nothing right or wrong in politics. It all depends on the particular instance. Can everything be justified in the name of proverbs, such as everything is fair in "Love and War". Then Hitler was right and even US was right in bombing Vietnaam, Laos, Japan, Cuba, Iraq etc.

I and you may find deriving personal gains by putting country’s reputation at stake as totally unacceptable. However, that’s not the way every citizen thinks, including the government. Look at the commonwealth games preparations and the thousands of crores that have been pocketed in the name of commonwealth games. Sorry but I really didn't get your point as how this is associated with jat agitation. This is entirely a different issue. Every damn decision can be criticized.

The decision of holding the games in Delhi itself was a political and economical (party's economy - not the nations) move. Everyone knew about the scarcity of land and infrastructure in Delhi. It could have been very prudent to build the commonwealth games village outside Delhi like what China did. It was an obvious thing. The government took a decision by looking at other calculations rather than the country’s reputation. When looked from this angle, the Jat’s agitation looks like another “justified” political move. May be only to serve the political interest of Jat Leader(s). And again what you have mentioned above is a hypothesis and also is a seperate issue.

 

[virj]

Please see the reply below.
THis is a very debatable issue and this might be your personal perspective of anti-congress. Majority of jats have been pro congress.

Excuse me again for picking one line. But u might want to reconsider this statement. Anyway how do u know?

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

पॉइंट ४, मैं मानता हूँ की लोग अपने लिए सबसे बेहतर काम चाहते हैं. पर इसका यह तात्पर्य नहीं है की लोग भेड़-चाल से प्रभावित नहीं होते. हम सब अपने आस पास क्या हो रहा है उससे प्रभावित होते हैं. इसलिए संभव है की एक जाट गबरू को दिल्ली पुलिस में जाते देख के दूसरा भी गाँठ बाँध ले की उसे वही करना है, और फिर उससे तीसरा. काफी हद तक यह अभी भी होता है. गाँव के बहुत बच्चे काफी पहले से सिपाही, मास्टर, आदि की तरफ अपना दिमाग बना चुके होते हैं. अब यह लोग किसी इंजिनियर से भी प्रभावित हो सकते हैं, और कुछ समय से ऐसा हो भी रहा है कि गाँव में शिक्षा के महत्व और डॉक्टर-इंजिनियर जैसे क्षेत्रों ने थोडा जोर पकड़ा है. पर उसके लिए इनके सामने वैसे उदहारण ज्यादा होने चाहिए. हम दोनों में से किसी की थेओरी शून्य या सौ प्रतिशत सही नहीं हो सकती. आशा है आपकी थेओरी ज्यादा कामयाब रहे. पर मेरा उद्देश्य सिक्के का दूसरा पहलू दिखाना है.

Kapil Bachhe Engineering ki taraf rujhan kar rahe hain Kuch bachhe. Pichle kuch saal mein mere gaon se bachhe engineering mein gaye bhi hain kuch diploma bhi kar rahe hain.lekin ek samasya jo bacho ko rokti hai wo financial condition hai Engineering course 4 saal ka hai ek saal ki college fees lagbhag ek lakh hai saath mein hostel fees aur baaki funds mila kar 7-8 lakh banta hai aur ek aam aadmi itnee fees afford nahi kar sakta isliye bachhe B.A. karke D-Ed. B.Ed. ki taraf jate hain. Doosra English ki kamjori bhi bachho ko rokti hai. Reservation ka fyda obviously cream layer ko milega kyonki wo padhe likhe hain. Lekin iske bavjood jin bachho ko higher profeesional education nahi mil payee unke paas bhi opportunities badh jayengi. Agar aap sochte hain ki JBT master ka selection easliy ho jata hai to aap galat hain baaki cream layer ke bachhe police CISF ya defence services mein jana nahi pasand karenge jahan ki naukriya jyadaa hain so quality ke mamle mein bhale hi creamy layer baji mar le par quantity ka benefit ek neechle aur majhle tabke ke jato ko milega.

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

THis is a very debatable issue and this might be your personal perspective of anti-congress. Majority of jats have been pro congress.

wow i wish i knew that By the way your family doesn't mean majority if it was so then INLD wouldn't have been able to grab 30+ seats

 

[nitindev]

Bhai, now I can't real argue with you. Atleast the point should be worth arguing.

Excuse me again for picking one line. But u might want to reconsider this statement. Anyway how do u know?

My family has been in absolute majority for sometime now, You got any problem with that?

THis is a very debatable issue and this might be your personal perspective of anti-congress. Majority of jats have been pro congress.

wow i wish i knew that By the way your family doesn't mean majority if it was so then INLD wouldn't have been able to grab 30+ seats

 

[arvindc]

Please see the reply below.
Well, that's the way it has become in India. You look at the autoriksha strike, the blue line bus service strikes and lot more similar kind of strikes, which are all targeted towards torture of a common, office going person. After the recent autoriksha strike they got about 50 % fare hike. So when this tool becomes so successful, it becomes obvious for others to use it. There is a difference between strike and victimizing ordinary people. And these are just excuses to justify something which is morally not correct. We did agitations like "गन्ना रोको" and that's a different case. Tomorrow if this tactic doesnt work then are we gonna blow up the people.

Who gets impacted by the strikes of Autos and buses in Delhi? If it’s not the ordinary people who is victimized then I wonder if its the rich class or the CM.

I haven't talked about morality here. Has this become a moral issue just because Jat's did it? And from where has this "blowing up the people" came from. This is exactly the language of the party I have talked about. An obsessed and disillusioned mind does become irrational.

Also, the political parties use these agitations and strikes for their electoral calculations. At one instance they would reward it by giving even more then what was asked for and at other instance it would punish them by labeling them as "torturing our fellow citizens". This is our choice as to how much we want to be manipulated and befooled by politicians. There is no harm in giving someone some money or reward but stealing is definetly a crime.

Yes, I agree. In that sense Jat's agitation is right.

Is getting reservation, a stealing? If so, then isn't overcharging (bus, auto fare) a stealing too?

In case of Jat, in my view, the congress party's stand has always been to oppose and oppress them, by doing so, the congress party ensures the votes of so many other communities. It leverages upon the poplar anti-jat sentiments among other communities. Divide and rule has been a very-very successful tool in India since its berth. THis is a very debatable issue and this might be your personal perspective of anti-congress. Majority of jats have been pro congress.

In your view, if majority of jats have been pro congress, then how is this a debatable issue?

By the way, there have been enough reports published by the beloved TOI and backed by the high ups in the congress party to prove my point.

The congress party has done lots of good things as well. Just that when it comes to Jat community, things get opposite.

They say, there is nothing right or wrong in politics. It all depends on the particular instance. Can everything be justified in the name of proverbs, such as everything is fair in "Love and War". Then Hitler was right and even US was right in bombing Vietnaam, Laos, Japan, Cuba, Iraq etc.

Yes, US was even right in dropping atom bombs on Japan and starting the nuclear weapons race. If US was not right, then why is the government going for the Nuclear deal?

I and you may find deriving personal gains by putting country’s reputation at stake as totally unacceptable. However, that’s not the way every citizen thinks, including the government. Look at the commonwealth games preparations and the thousands of crores that have been pocketed in the name of commonwealth games. Sorry but I really didn't get your point as how this is associated with jat agitation. This is entirely a different issue. Every damn decision can be criticized.

It's good if people read the topic before commenting. Otherwise, there are chances that they would not understand the context. Please read the first post of the thread.

The decision of holding the games in Delhi itself was a political and economical (party's economy - not the nations) move. Everyone knew about the scarcity of land and infrastructure in Delhi. It could have been very prudent to build the commonwealth games village outside Delhi like what China did. It was an obvious thing. The government took a decision by looking at other calculations rather than the country’s reputation. When looked from this angle, the Jat’s agitation looks like another “justified” political move. May be only to serve the political interest of Jat Leader(s). And again what you have mentioned above is a hypothesis and also is a seperate issue.

There is no hypothesis in it. It is based on facts. Delhi can't handle the traffic, the air quality is too bad and there is shortage of water and electricity. With this much of population, securing the venue also becomes very challenging. Hope you are here for the games to see and experience it yourself.

Now tell me one good reason for choosing Delhi for the games?

Again, this isn't a separate issue. read the thread's initiating post.

 

[dvnehra]

they are doing the right thing.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU, WE NEED TO ACT MORE VIGROUSLY TO ACHIEVE OUR GOAL i.e. RESERVATION FOR JATS AT CENTRE AS WELL AS IN STATES WHERE WE HAVE NOT GOT YET : KEEP THE MOMENTUM & SUCCESS WILL BE AT OUR DOORSTEPS

 

[virj]

Bhai, now I can't real argue with you. Atleast the point should be worth arguing.

Han Bhai Nitin Dev I also cant really argue with you and I wasnt arguing with u. I thought u have written that statement by mistake. Majority of jats to congress virodhi rahe he aur aap kah rahe the majority of jats congress supporter/samarthak rahe he. This point is not worth arguing i agree.

 

[hemanthooda]

Jat group threatens to disturb CWG

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Jat-group-threatens-to-disturb-CWG/articleshow/6124808.cms

MEERUT: A group of Jats on Saturday threatened to disturb the upcoming Commonwealth games in the national capital if the government failed to take a decision on their demands for reservation in government jobs by July 10.

"The recent water crisis in Delhi was a trailer. If the government does not take decision on our demands by July 10, then we are competent enough to block Delhi's oil, water, electricity, gas lines which pass through our fields," Akhil Bhartiya Jat Aarakshan Sangharsh Samiti President Yashpal Malik said.

Samiti's Vice president Aman Singh said the Samiti will hold a press conference on July 12 and launch a fresh agitation if their demands are not met by July 10.

 

[vivekgathwala]

ke likh diya yu taneeeeeeee !!! isne sanskrit m likh de bhai re

 

[vivekgathwala]

What do you mean? shall we boycott all the things which were introduced by the English?

boycattt t jab karenge jab kise n ya angreji dhang sar aati hogii ebe t sikhi hi konya boycat kyukar hoga bhai

 

[vivekgathwala]

bhai kuch adde Shakuni bhi hain... joo durr khade hoke aag luwaya karen.. Adde kitne hain joo Police ki Goli agge khade honge..

Jab ude rola hoga toh ghankhran baaj jange.

ek adami issa dikha dee adee joo nuu kanda hooo ek Haan main sab teh agae rahunga agitation main

Sab suwadu hain

sab t bade t ye internet ale h bhaisahb ......nakliyan ki fauj h

 

[hemanthooda]

ke likh diya yu taneeeeeeee !!! isne sanskrit m likh de bhai re

Google kar le arr translate kar le Bhai!!!! Bera kooni google kare bhi sai ak naa!!!Phir bhi try it!!!

 

[vivekgathwala]

भिवानी। अखिल भारतीय जाट आरक्षण संघर्ष समिति जंतर-मंतर पर 28 जुलाई को महासम्मेलन आयोजित करेगी। समिति के प्रदेश अध्यक्ष पूर्व कमांडेट हवा सिंह सागवान ने यह जानकारी दी।
उन्होंने बताया कि इस महासम्मेलन में आरक्षण के लिए केंद्र सरकार के खिलाफ रणभेरी बजाई जाएगी। सागवान शुक्रवार को यहा जाट धर्मशाला में समाज के लोगों की बैठक को संबोधित कर रहे थे। उन्होंने बताया कि 27 जुलाई से संसद का मानसून सत्र शुरू होगा। इस सत्र से पहले संघर्ष समिति के सदस्य उत्तर भारत के सभी सासदों को ज्ञापन सौंपेंगे। इन ज्ञापनों में सासदों से आग्रह किया जाएगा कि वे संसद सत्र के दौरान जाट समाज की आरक्षण की माग को जोर-शोर से उठाएं। सागवान ने कहा कि इसके बाद भी केंद्र सरकार नही जागी तो अगस्त के प्रथम पखवाड़े में सोनीपत में राष्ट्रीय स्तर का जाट महासम्मेलन आयोजित करवाया जाएगा।

 

[vivekgathwala]

सोनीपत, जागरण संवाद केंद्र
अखिल भारतीय जाट आरक्षण संघर्ष समिति की बैठक में 28 जुलाई को दिल्ली के जंतर-मंतर पर होने वाली जाट पंचायत की तैयारियों करी समीक्षा की गई।
बृहस्पतिवार की बैठक में समिति के जिलाध्यक्ष अजीत सिंह दहिया ने बताया कि समिति के राष्ट्रीय अध्यक्ष यशपाल मलिक के नेतृत्व में चल रहे जाट आरक्षण की मांग को लेकर चल रहे जनसंपर्क अभियान के तहत अब तक सरोहा खाप, आंतिल खाप व दहिया खाप के करीब 65 गांवों में सभाओं का आयोजन कर लोगों को जाटों के आरक्षण के प्रति जागृत किया जा चुका है। हर गांव में समिति के कार्यकर्ताओं को लोग खुले दिल से समर्थन कर रहे हैं। मूलचंद दहिया ने कहा कि अगर सरकार ने सीधे व शांतिपूर्वक ढंग से जाटों को आरक्षण नहीं दिया तो जाट दिल्ली का पानी, बिजली व अन्य खाद्य सामग्री बंद कर देंगे। इतना ही नहीं राष्ट्रमंडल खेलों को भी बाधित कर देंगे। बैठक में अजीत सिंह, महासिंह लाकड़ा, महेंद्र सिंह मोर, दयानंद दहिया, महावीर दहिया, सतबीर डबास, प्रेम सिंह दहिया आदि मौजूद थे।

 

[vivekgathwala]

खरखौदा, संवाद सहयोगी : अखिल भारतीय जाट आरक्षण संघर्ष समिति के राष्ट्रीय अध्यक्ष यशपाल मलिक ने कहा कि जाटों को आरक्षण दिलाए जाने के मामले में अब आरपार की लड़ाई लड़ी जाएगी। उन्होंने कहा कि जाटों को आरक्षण न दिए जाने को लेकर अब हरियाणा से भी जाने वाला दिल्ली का पानी, बिजली व अन्य सामान को आपूर्ति ठप की जाएगी। उन्होंने कहा कि अगर केंद्र सरकार जाटों को आरक्षण देने के मामले में खामोश रही तो अक्टूबर माह में होने वाले कामनवेल्थ गेम्स में भी रोड़ा अटकाया जाएगा। वह मंगलवार को गांव सिलाना में आरक्षण को लेकर आयोजित बैठक को संबोधित कर रहे थे।
समिति की महिला प्रकोष्ठ की ओर से आयोजित बैठक को संबोधित करते हुए यशपाल मलिक ने उपस्थित लोगों से आह्वान किया कि वह 28 जुलाई को दिल्ली के जंतर-मंतर पर होने वाली बैठक में अधिकाधिक संख्या में पहुंच कर अपने हकों की मांग करें। उन्होंने कहा कि लंबे समय से संगठन जाटों को ओबीसी में शामिल करने व केंद्र में सरकारी नौकरियों में आरक्षण देने के मामले में संघर्ष कर रहा है, लेकिन हरियाणा के जाटों को आरक्षण देने के मामले में केंद्र सरकार कोई कदम नहीं उठा रही है। उन्होंने कहा कि आरक्षण के लिए धरना दिया जाएगा। महिला नेत्री निर्मला दहिया ने कहा कि जाटों के लिए आरक्षण की मांग जातिगत न होकर गांवों में बसने वाले उस समूह के लिए है जिसके बच्चे रोजगार से वंचित है। उन्होंने कहा कि 1991 में लागू मंडल कमीशन के समय जाटों को आरक्षण मिल गया होता तो जाटों के लड़के सम्मानित पदों पर विराजमान होते। उन्होंने कहा कि कृषि के लिए जमीन घटती जा रही है। व्यापार आता नहीं और आरक्षण नहीं मिला तो जाटों के बच्चों को नौकरी नहीं मिलेगी। उन्होंने याद दिलाया कि अगर गुरनाम सिंह आयोग की रिपोर्ट लागू करके जाटों को आरक्षण का लाभ दिया गया होता तो आज यह नौबत नहीं आती। उन्होंने कहा कि आरक्षण के मुद्दे पर महिलाएं भी किसी से पीछे नहीं रहेंगी। पूर्व सरपंच उमेद सिंह ने बैठक की अध्यक्षता की। राजकुमार बिधलान ने मंच का संचालन किया। प्रांतीय महासचिव मूलचंद दहिया, जाट महासभा की अध्यक्ष कविता चौधरी, डा. संतोष दहिया, पुष्पेंद्र सिंह, राष्ट्रीय उपाध्यक्ष धर्मपाल, सुभाष दहिया ने भी अपने विचार रखे।

 

[vivekgathwala]

सोनीपत, जागरण संवाद केंद्र :
अखिल भारतीय जाट आरक्षण समिति की ओर से जाट आरक्षण के प्रति लोगों को जागरूक करने के लिए चलाया गया प्रचार रथ सोमवार को जिले के विभिन्न गांव में घूमा और लोगों से जाटों को आरक्षण दिलाने के प्रति चलाए गए आंदोलन में शरीक होने की अपील की।
सोमवार को प्रचार रथ गांव जगदीशपुर, लिवान, लिवासपुर, बारोटा, जठेड़ी, राठधना, बैंयापुर, लहराड़ा, हरसाना कलां, नाहरी, नाहरा, हलालपुर, मंडोरा, मंडोरी, झिंझोली, जटोला, सैदपुर, पिपली, गोपालपुर व थाना कलां आदि गांवों में घूमा तथा लोगों को जाट आरक्षण के संघर्ष के प्रति प्रेरित किया। प्रचार रथ के साथ समिति के राष्ट्रीय अध्यक्ष यशपाल मलिक ने लोगों से जाटा आरक्षण में समिति का समर्थन देने की अपील की। उन्होंने लोगों से 28 जुलाई को दिल्ली के जंतर-मंतर पर होने वाली जाट पंचायत में शामिल होने का न्योता भी दिया। इस मौके पर मेहर सिंह दहिया, हवा सिंह सांगवान, मूलचंद दहिया, अजीत सिंह दहिया, रणधीर सिंह सरोहा, महावीर सिंह दहिया, जिले सिंह नाहरी, महेंद्र सिंह मोर आदि मौजूद थे।