"Should the Govt amend HMA to ban 'same-gotra' marriage"?

Do you support same Gotra marriage?


  • Total voters
    166
VP Singh Ji,
This is called "Freedom of Press". Looks like they have molded your comment in favor of their article and agenda.

I posted 3 comments on NBT a while ago, the original comment was never approved and the subsequent comments asking them to approve my original comment were approved. This is journalism, the fourth pillar of the democracy. :D

I wrote a comment on this article and TOI has carried only one para of it as it was a bit lengthy (as usual of me). My comment has been carried by the name VPS Bhiwani. In the last para, I had tried to clarify that the people proposing such moves do not represent the entire Jat community and the majority of Jats are against such retrogate steps. I had further tried to bring to the notice of TOI the negative reporting about the Jat community on such issues in the past. For obvious reasons they have edited the comment considerably. Here is the portion published by TOI:


H VPS Bhiwani 03 Jul, 2010 01:54 PM
It seems human civilization has reached its zenith and now it is time for a slide down. In that process some people have, perhaps, decided to revive all the old traditions including the child marriage. Gosh! This is the height of absurdity and stupidity. I don't know what is preventing the political parties to stop these enemies of civility from issuing such dictates in the name of protecting customs, and honour. It is not known who mandates them to take the law in their hands as majority of Jats are against such retrograde steps.
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My dear jatlanders, this is nothing but another try for self publicity, niether mr mann can do it nor the suggetion is sensible, useful & practical. In fact if the marriage age lowered as suggested, children will get opportunity to run away from their houses & get married at early age because they will be elegible to get married at early age. The age between 12 to 18 is more favourable for such affairs & adventures. However, this may be a suggetion from mr omperkash mann, it cannot be a serve khap decision, I donot think any khap will agree to this point & atlist kharb khap not only disagree but will object with full strength if called for meeting.Also there is difference between jat sabha & khap, this point may be from jat sabha but I really donot believe, even jat sabha can take such irrelevent decision. Brothers, same gotra marriage proble is faced by almost all the communities in north India, such inccidents are taking place in all communities, why we are so worried or we suold take all such communities along in our struggle. My personal openion is at present the community should lie low on this point, let some time pass, lateron take other effected communities along and project the case strongly, And at present jats must concentrate on reservation, donot divide your efforts, strength, resources etc

Spot on Fateh Sir!!!! Agree with you!!!
 
That is the problem Hemant, reporter has no idea about the difference between khap panchayat and panchayat (legal body). And why blame reporters, even members at this very site, comment that khap should be banned (?) citing articles having nothing to do with khaps. (to me this is an obvious indication that they don't have much idea about khaps. I am no expert on khap either but whatever elementary knowledge I have, I found it ridiculous to blame khaps for any thing that goes wrong anything in villages).

Ironically- if someone questions (with sincerity) such a member regarding his knowledge regarding the khaps, more often than not, answer is a meaningless myriad of words, an attempt to prove that his/her knowledge is an irrelevant factor!! yet, for some reasons, the rigidity against khaps remains intact!!
-----------------

Coming back to the topic: (and in connection with the issue of banning the 'bodies' which are against the spirit of our constitution and citizens' liberty- This article make a case of BANNING the Village panchayats!! :D :D

And well, this is not the first case, every now and then there are such news where influential people (which are also the Panchayat members and Sarpanch) oppress the weaker-sections (my favorite words).

Not just in Jatlands, situation throughout the India is more or less same. In Central India (MP, CG, Bihar, JharKa, Urri), there have been many cases of Women being stripped naked and paraded in village for some minor offences by PANCHYATS .
Instances of Dalit women tied down to a tree and burnt alive were also reported. These women were suspected of practicing WITCHCRAFT (take that)!!
I am not making-up these cases, cynics are welcome to googling.


Furthermore, Panchayat Sarpanchi has become a tool of making money; Only Influential ppl are selected as members and sarpanch. Panchayat elections are also responsible not just for the GUTBANDI in villages but also for many bloody murdering !! Cases of corruption against Sarpanchs are aplenty. :-|

Reservation for women in panchayats election has also been largely ineffective (nothing more than dummies for their husbands or sons). Thus, not much of women- empowerment either!! :-(

Also, note that we do have police and courts for settling issues and Administrative officers, BDOs (corrupt or not) for allocating funds for village- development, etc.
Why add one more echelon (i.e, village panchayats) in corruption-hierarchy just in the name of grass-root democracy?

Why not completely demolish panchayat-system and save some election money?
If needed, hire some more BDOs and thats it. At least 'these' BDOs won't burn women alive!! :D


Any thoughts? :D

Regards,

Ya correct Sunil...Why not abolish democracy???Why dont we have a dictator to rule us??? ....lolz!!!!!
 
VP Singh Ji,
This is called "Freedom of Press". Looks like they have molded your comment in favor of their article and agenda.

I posted 3 comments on NBT a while ago, the original comment was never approved and the subsequent comments asking them to approve my original comment were approved. This is journalism, the fourth pillar of the democracy. :D

Jakhar ji,

It is true that TOI resorts to this kind of tactics which is totally against the journalistic etiquettes. But we are helpless. There is no denying the fact that media world over has its own political bias and orientation. Even groups like BBC World which, in general perception, is an autonomous and impartial source, takes directives and signals from British Foreign Office as it gets substantial grant from them. It is more so with Indian media which is not only prejudiced but saleable too. Our misfortune is that we do not have adequate representation there and even now not giving any serious thought to have an effective propaganda machinery to project ourselves in a right perspective.
 
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Jakhar ji,

It is true that TOI resorts to this kind of tactics which is totally against the journalistic etiquettes. But we are helpless. .


I am going to thank Shri V P Singh, for recognizing and putting forward the problem in such accurate and concise terms

I will suggest that we are far from helpless.

The first step is to stop believing that what ever the media writes is the truth.

The 2nd is to stop believing the worst about your community everytime some journalist writes something, and accepting his/her version as the truth.

Media will twist your comments.

3rd is to stop bashing your community at every drop of that hat.

4th is to investigate the veracity or truthfulness of what that journalist writes

5th correct the journalist

There are only 50 - 60 journalists taking this tack and going for Jat bashing in an organized manner.

We have 15,000 members here.

Can we not stop spending our energy on attacking our own community and bring to account those who spread falsehoods?


Surely among 15,000 educated members we can organize a response team and response!!!!


Why let TOI get away with it???

Ravi Chaudhary
 
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damn good sir. i m sure khaps will give u award for this great idea. in addition, they can also think of baby marriagies. commit ones daughter to some friend's baby son as soon as she is born

Why do you have to write such things all the time. Journalist like u are ----what do i Say.

Read that news again the title says "
Khaps want girls' marriageable age lowered to 15"


and the first line of the news says :Jat Mahasabha wants marriageable age of girls and boys to be lowered to 15 and 17 respectively so that couples don't elope and marry against the wishes of their families. There is a difference between Khap and Jat mahasabah.

If a small section of jat or any other caste demand anything that doesnt mean the whole community or all khap demand that thing.

Also he said "the demand will be discussed at a sarv khap panchayat(which include many other communities as well) on July 17 at Meham Chaubisi Chabutara in Rohtak.

Trust me our panchayats are more democratic than our other system. You can raise your points and get heard. He said "it will be discussed" It not sarv khap decision. We can only talk like this or report this if sarv khap decide to push this demand.

Its same as, if anyone remeber, during kargil war the muslim imam on jama mashjid said "anti - india" things and the press and all of the journalist would have blamed whole muslim community
as "gaddar". But I have never read such comments agains muslims that time. They mildly criticized that imam and thats all.


TOI is behaving as Panjab Kesari of 1980
 
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I am understanding your feeling & second your comments, but I think vp didnot spports the idea of child marriageor female foeticide, secondly dear sidhu please try to understand that it is not only khap which is responsible for all nonsense goingon, REGARDS

u misundersttod me. i understood VP sir's comments. it was meant to be sarcastic and so meant i. u seem not to have tsate 4 sarcasm
 
u misundersttod me. i understood VP sir's comments. it was meant to be sarcastic and so meant i. u seem not to have tsate 4 sarcasm

Beti seema, good that you understood the post in question correctly, what about khaps, please donot mind, after going through few of your kind posts on the thread, I feel, you need to spent some more time to understand our culture, our traditions, our samaj & khap system. I donot deny that our culture, samaj, traditions & khaps may have some negative points but it is also fact that these above have many positie points too. Another request, to note, it is much batter to be flexible than to be rigid, one must keep both the doors open for learning.
 
Let's move ahead: Draft Ammendment

We have been discussing this issue for long time now. I think we should discuss the ammendment itself now.
I am not a lawyer nor a constitution expert but I want to give it a go.
Let's see what clause we want to add in the HMA. Our aim to prevent same gotra marrigae and marriages within same village. It will be the group of tradition which all Jats follow everywhere so it will be a very basic clause not an extensive one which includes all the gotra bhaichara, village bhaichara and so on.

From me, as a lay person, it should go like this:

"Marriages in the same gotra (Self and mother) and within same village (revenue boundary) will be illegal wherever a customs exists in a well-defined community".

The terms used here like gotra, village, custom and community have already been defined in our judicial system very well somewhere I think but they are still open to further discussion.

My apologies for using lay person terminology, a lawyer or a legal expert can give us a better presentation and I invite them to give their expert advice.

Let's give it a go and see the knowledge and experience flowing. We should not stay still and should not keep beating around the bush again and again. We do not need to agree on a single draft, it will be changed again and again but that is called refining. Everybody has a right to disagree but simply ridiculing the idea is not well appreciated too.
 
We have been discussing this issue for long time now. I think we should discussth ammendment otself now.
I am not a lawyer nor a constitution expert but I want to give it a go.
Let's see what clause we want to add in the HMA. Our aim to prevent same gotra marrigae and marriages within same village. It will be the group of tradition which all Jats follow everywhere so it will be a very basic clause not an extensive one which includes all the gotra bhaichara, village bhaichara and so on.

From me, as a lay person, it should go like this:

"Marriages in the same gotra (Self and mother) and within same village (revenue boundary) will be illegal wherever a customs exists in a well-defined community".

The terms used here like gotra, village, custom and community have already been defined in our judicial system very well somewhere I think but they are still open to further discussion.

My apologies for using lay person terminology, a lawyer or a legal expert can give us a better presentation and I invite them to give their expert advice.

Let's give it a go and see the knowledge and experience flowing. We should not stay still and should not keep beating around the bush again and again. We do not need to agree on a single draft, it will be changed again and again but that is called refining. Everybody has a right to disagree but simply ridiculing the idea is not well appreciated too.

Jakharji what about giving your openion on my suggestion at post no 654 before we go to draft . infact we need not be worried about draft, once we are successful in convincing the people concern ( govt, executie, political parties in power) there is no broblem of draf, neither it is big work nor we have dirth of expertise & in any case once our requirement is agreed by the govt than there is a dept in the govt to draft the amendments,I personally feel there is no point in wasting time on draft. tWO POINTS SEEMS TO BE IMPORTANT TO ME, we must take similarly placed communities along & get our custom be recoganised by the authority concern before we proceed for amendment. regards
 
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Discussion and outcome

We have been discussing this issue for long time at JL now. 91% of the members voted in favor of the amendment. This draft is not going to be put in the parliament, neither we want to put this draft for our khap approval. Its for the JL people first, it has been a long demand of the people at JL to have a blue print/draft who want to see the pros and cons of the demanded amendment.

Other communities will come with us once we have common perception about the demanded amendment. I have said so long ago that if other communities want to join us, they are most welcome but we can not wait for them. If we are the first community to raise this issue then we should move forward. When we put forward our customs then only someone will recognize them otherwise we will be waiting for the approval from the authorities and that will never happen. If that had be happened, then it would have happened in 1955.

We will never be able to convince 100% population on this issue. The way we are discussing, we will never get anywhere. There is a limit to discussion and we should move forward. I am not saying that we should press for this draft or that draft. People will give their objections/suggestions and the people who support the amendment should clear/accept/deny the these with their argument.

I respect your view of "sarvsammati" but I do not see it happening. Let people express their demanded provision in words, let them express their anxieties and let other people try to resolve them by their logical/rational arguments.

Regards.

Jakharji what about giving your openion on my suggestion at post no 654 before we go to draft . infact we need not be worried about draft, once we are successful in convincing the people concern ( govt, executie, political parties in power) there is no broblem of draf, neither it is big work nor we have dirth of expertise & in any case once our requirement is agreed by the govt than there is a dept in the govt to draft the amendments,I personally feel there is no point in wasting time on draft. tWO POINTS SEEMS TO BE IMPORTANT TO ME, we must take similarly placed communities along & get our custom be recoganised by the authority concern before we proceed for amendment. regards
 
Raviji,

I appreciate the sentiment. But I'd be turning a blind eye if I don't ask you whether these parameters come into picture only when a certain kind of view is raised- basically opposition to Khaps, customs, etc. This has nothing to do with the view point itself, as you can very well see from my own opposition to it. The problem is that such sentiments are never raised when much much worse venom is spewed by self-professed real and blue-blooded Jats. Anyone taking a view contrary to them is bull-dozed (note, it is not criticism) with rhetoric. Asking them to provide evidence is blasphemous.

Probably it is too difficult to take on those who have unilaterally usurped the right to carry the Jat flag. But I dare say that Satyendra's criticism is a minor amusement compared to the "real stuff". If we can tolerate that, we should be able to tolerate anything.






Dear Kapil

Thanks .

Sentiments are first and foremost, and that is what I am looking for.

Is the sentiment in a positive direction or not.

If it is, we will move forward, f not we will wallow in the doldrums.

With the proper sentiment, we can and will, look at, study, analyze, criticize and deal with the issues that face our community today.

There is no rational basis for being part of a group called Jats. We were born into Jat families. Only some ladies who married into the Jats became Jats.

One cannot acquire ‘jat’ status, today. .

It is then an emotional and has a lot to do with sentiment.

Then one should be aware of and concerned as to what the sentiment one has for the community – positive or negative.



As I mentioned earlier, we should not be so arrogant and to think that this is the first in the history of our community that we have faced such issues, and I suggest it will not be the last

Satyendra, has inadvertently, become a bit a of lightning rod here, to focus the discussion, and I thank him for his forbearance.

For the record, I have spoken with him, a few weeks ago, and I am quite satisfied with his antecedents. He is from Sikar area. He is not Mr Siwach.

He has a genuine concern, and people with genuine concerns are and should be welcome.


They do not have to agree with my/our views.

People who bring critical thinking are what we need and want. People like Satyendra fall into that category.

We want, and should want more and more young people to come forward and post their views. Right or wrong does not matter.

If they do, then their views too will be open to critical analysis. That is the point I am making.

I will suggest they should not take the criticism amiss, but to build upon and from it.


On issues:

It is not unexpected that an issue like marriage customs will generate so much heat and fire.

The Khap issue is basically a by product.

Until some 10 years ago, I had no idea what a Khap was. It was only as part of my readings of our Jat historians that I came to discover this great institution.

I plan to make no apologies for it. My constant refrain has been to all, go and study your history, it is not contained in the school books, and if you do not study it and retain it, you will be the net loser. Eventually you will disappear as a people.


Of course there will be many more issues that are of prime importance- Female foeticide, lack of education, child marriage, honour killings, domestic violence; decline is standard of living, lack of health care etc etc.

The Jats, as far as I know, do not have proprietary rights or patents on these issues. Yet Jats are being portrayed in the media, as if f this was the case.

This is something we should all be concerned about; for it affects us it affects our children. It affects the image they carry in society.

History books have been quite unkind to Jats, depicting them as robbers and bandits.

To day the Jats and Jat land are being portrayed as uncouth, bloodthirsty animals worse than Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.

This affects the self image of a child who has to read, study, and believe this to be true. The child becomes the butt of jokes- ‘16 duni 8 ‘, , Jat, tere seir phe Khat’ etc is a cruel reality for them..

I have come across many Jats, well placed, who try their best to hide their identity.

The time may well come, and sooner rather than later, when being a Jat may disqualify you from an interview or a promotion.


I for one and I make no bones about it, object to such portrayal, and intend to do what I can to stop this and also to help re build the self esteem of the Jats.

What I find as quite tragic, though not entirely unexpected, is that a number of own community take more than a few pains to discredit their community, for their own selfish ends.


Today we have a segment of the media laying every misdemeanor at the door of the Jats.

At most we are dealing with 50-60 journalists.

When confronted at a recent seminar in Delhi, they all backed down, as they could not provide any evidence for their claims.

What we are now seeing is a spin by some of them on an earlier, hearsay story. The facts are damned.

An old adage” A lie oft repeated becomes the truth”

50-60 journalists are handleable.

It is these people I would like us to take on.

For those who wonder what a Khap is- Jatland is also a Khap, with over 15,000 well educated members.

This is a vibrant discussion platform, what is happening here is a Khap meeting.

The members will reach a decision. There will always be a minority, who will not go along, but their voices will have been heard, and taken into account.

That is direct democracy, in the best traditions of the Jats.

We must now move forward


Ravi Chaudhary
 
We have been discussing this issue for long time at JL now. 91% of the members voted in favor of the amendment. This draft is not going to be put in the parliament, neither we want to put this draft for our khap approval. Its for the JL people first, it has been a long demand of the people at JL to have a blue print/draft who want to see the pros and cons of the demanded amendment.

Other communities will come with us once we have common perception about the demanded amendment. I have said so long ago that if other communities want to join us, they are most welcome but we can not wait for them. If we are the first community to raise this issue then we should move forward. When we put forward our customs then only someone will recognize them otherwise we will be waiting for the approval from the authorities and that will never happen. If that had be happened, then it would have happened in 1955.

We will never be able to convince 100% population on this issue. The way we are discussing, we will never get anywhere. There is a limit to discussion and we should move forward. I am not saying that we should press for this draft or that draft. People will give their objections/suggestions and the people who support the amendment should clear/accept/deny the these with their argument.



Regards.

I agree with Jakharji

This discussion must now become a little more focused. Everyone who wished to do so has basically had their say.

Media related comments, to be kept on other thread

On this thread- please post only your final comments re the amendment to the HMA.

We must now reach a decision and move forward

Ravi Chaudhary
 
We have been discussing this issue for long time at JL now. 91% of the members voted in favor of the amendment. This draft is not going to be put in the parliament, neither we want to put this draft for our khap approval. Its for the JL people first, it has been a long demand of the people at JL to have a blue print/draft who want to see the pros and cons of the demanded amendment.

Other communities will come with us once we have common perception about the demanded amendment. I have said so long ago that if other communities want to join us, they are most welcome but we can not wait for them. If we are the first community to raise this issue then we should move forward. When we put forward our customs then only someone will recognize them otherwise we will be waiting for the approval from the authorities and that will never happen. If that had be happened, then it would have happened in 1955.

We will never be able to convince 100% population on this issue. The way we are discussing, we will never get anywhere. There is a limit to discussion and we should move forward. I am not saying that we should press for this draft or that draft. People will give their objections/suggestions and the people who support the amendment should clear/accept/deny the these with their argument.

I respect your view of "sarvsammati" but I do not see it happening. Let people express their demanded provision in words, let them express their anxieties and let other people try to resolve them by their logical/rational arguments.

Regards.

Jakhar Ji, yes you are right we can discuss the same endlessly without reaching any conclusion..Since poll shows that majority of Jatlanders are in favour of amending HMA , we should put this discussion to the end!!!!

We must take likeminded communities with us to garner more support to push forward the same.

Ek se bhale 2 , 2 se bhale 4!!!!
 
Dear Kapil

Thanks .


Ravi Chaudhary

Raviji, I am sorry, but your long reply side-steps the issue. I don't think what I said could be misunderstood. There was only one message. To put it again bluntly, the onus of responsible posting (as put on Satyendra) is always put on those who are taking a contrarian view (atleast contrarian to the blue-blooded Jat brigade). While the extremists who have unilaterally usurped the right to define and represent Jat-ness, get away with murder. Posting anything (a lie, hearsay that glorifies Jats, conspiracy theories, abuses, mocking others, intimidation, etc. etc.) is fine as long as it can be seen to be interpreted as being pro-Jat. Extremists need not always be those who are rude & aggressive. Those guys are still occasionally told to watch out their words. There are lots of ways of doing propaganda. There is a lot of irresponsible posting here, that is never pointed out (atleast by moderators), lest it is seen as opposing Jat-ness itself.

Now we may give a different angle to it, that likes of Satyendra are welcome for their critical thought. Yet it can't be denied that he was asked to become "responsible". Perhaps there was merit there- I am not debating that (I personally argued against him). But what explains the official silence to extremists (to be fair, silence is unofficial as well. Not many people bother to take on the extremists)? I have seen too many cases not to miss the trend. The biggest danger to a community is not from the critics inside or outside the community, but from the extremists within. In the name of unity, pride and what not, they try to impose a homogeneous thought on everyone. Anyone who doesn't adhere to that thought process is damned.

Probably there is insufficient will power or capacity to take on extremism. Or maybe there is this thinking, "he is an idiot, but he is my idiot"- basically people taking the same side of an argument but for entirely different reasons. In either case, the fundamentalist is still the biggest danger to the community in the long run, even if he is fighting for "your cause" in the short run. If we can't stop the extremists from irresponsible posting, we can atleast pretend to be fair and free-speech advocate by not asking the occasional contrarian to act responsibly.
 
We have been discussing this issue for long time now. I think we should discussth ammendment otself now.
I am not a lawyer nor a constitution expert but I want to give it a go.
Let's see what clause we want to add in the HMA. Our aim to prevent same gotra marrigae and marriages within same village. It will be the group of tradition which all Jats follow everywhere so it will be a very basic clause not an extensive one which includes all the gotra bhaichara, village bhaichara and so on.

From me, as a lay person, it should go like this:

"Marriages in the same gotra (Self and mother) and within same village (revenue boundary) will be illegal wherever a customs exists in a well-defined community".

The terms used here like gotra, village, custom and community have already been defined in our judicial system very well somewhere I think but they are still open to further discussion.

My apologies for using lay person terminology, a lawyer or a legal expert can give us a better presentation and I invite them to give their expert advice.

Let's give it a go and see the knowledge and experience flowing. We should not stay still and should not keep beating around the bush again and again. We do not need to agree on a single draft, it will be changed again and again but that is called refining. Everybody has a right to disagree but simply ridiculing the idea is not well appreciated too.

Yes Jakhar Ji, The time has come now that we prepare a draft for the review of our JL members. Of course there would be a few people who would oppose it and as u said its very hard that 100% people agree to a particular thing.

The draft should be prepared before 15th july. And we should choose a member who can represent us on 17th July Meham to extend our support to our khaps. Khaps should be asked to put this demand more vigrously.

The Sarv khap include other communities as well like Saini

What you have suggested is what we want. The definition of "prohibited realtionship" under HMA need to be changed and should include Same Gotra and Same village unless custom in that area permits it. People like Sanjay can put relevant section in.
 
Yes Jakhar Ji, The time has come now that we prepare a draft for the review of our JL members. Of course there would be a few people who would oppose it and as u said its very hard that 100% people agree to a particular thing.

The draft should be prepared before 15th july. And we should choose a member who can represent us on 17th July Meham to extend our support to our khaps. Khaps should be asked to put this demand more vigrously.

The Sarv khap include other communities as well like Saini

What you have suggested is what we want. The definition of "prohibited realtionship" under HMA need to be changed and should include Same Gotra and Same village unless custom in that area permits it. People like Sanjay can put relevant section in.

I am very happy to see idea of contribution towards the cause instead of running our horses only on paper/threads, good idea please go ahead. No doubt on the demand of same gotra(father & mother) but we may have to keep in mind the fast changing boundaries of villages due to land/property exchanging hands quite often & villages turning into small towns, while drafting the demand/amendment. regards
 
Yes Fateh Ji, That y I said It need to be prepared and reviewed by JL members. The same village particularly need to be discussed. As I said we can discuss this draft till 15th July make necessary changes. Choose our representative ( For this we need the list of people who can or willing to go to Meham on 17th July and than we decide the best person for the job). So lets stop beating around the bush. Prepare this draft, discuss this. Amend it as necessary and then take the next step.

Our discussion from now to 15th should be around what we can/should be included in the amendment. As looks like majority favours amendment. Everyone please share ur views.

Our supprort (doesnt matter how big or how small) will boost khap and their demand. Moreover media, Govt and others will get an idea that this demand isnt limited to Khap
 
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Raviji, I am sorry, but your long reply side-steps the issue. I don't think what I said could be misunderstood. There was only one message. To put it again bluntly, the onus of responsible posting (as put on Satyendra) is always put on those who are taking a contrarian view (atleast contrarian to the blue-blooded Jat brigade). While the extremists who have unilaterally usurped the right to define and represent Jat-ness, get away with murder. Posting anything (a lie, hearsay that glorifies Jats, conspiracy theories, abuses, mocking others, intimidation, etc. etc.) is fine as long as it can be seen to be interpreted as being pro-Jat. Extremists need not always be those who are rude & aggressive. Those guys are still occasionally told to watch out their words. There are lots of ways of doing propaganda. There is a lot of irresponsible posting here, that is never pointed out (atleast by moderators), lest it is seen as opposing Jat-ness itself.

Now we may give a different angle to it, that likes of Satyendra are welcome for their critical thought. Yet it can't be denied that he was asked to become "responsible". Perhaps there was merit there- I am not debating that (I personally argued against him). But what explains the official silence to extremists (to be fair, silence is unofficial as well. Not many people bother to take on the extremists)? I have seen too many cases not to miss the trend. The biggest danger to a community is not from the critics inside or outside the community, but from the extremists within. In the name of unity, pride and what not, they try to impose a homogeneous thought on everyone. Anyone who doesn't adhere to that thought process is damned.

Probably there is insufficient will power or capacity to take on extremism. Or maybe there is this thinking, "he is an idiot, but he is my idiot"- basically people taking the same side of an argument but for entirely different reasons. In either case, the fundamentalist is still the biggest danger to the community in the long run, even if he is fighting for "your cause" in the short run. If we can't stop the extremists from irresponsible posting, we can atleast pretend to be fair and free-speech advocate by not asking the occasional contrarian to act responsibly.

Excellent as usual.
 
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