it is very convinent to have these liberal thoughts of broadmindedness untill you start applying them personally.i have a simple question to all the persons who strongly support this sexual orientation ....what if their sister wants to marry her lesbian partner?will you still be able to convince yourself or your parents with all these logics.I am saying all this bcoz i have one child(son) whom i want to see get married one day and want to play with my grandchildren(his own children ) and if any sexual orientation comes between me and my dream i strongly object it.
Taboo Topic: Same sex relationships in Jats.
- Thread starter vdhillon
- Start date
Please go back to my original post#1 and read the 'PS' section at the bottom of that post again. Im not preaching armchair stuff that I am not prepared to accept in my personal life.
theoretically it is very easy to say but when it comes to reality all the perspectives changes.i will only believe when in reality someone has done it.I will really respect that person .who really gets worried for the bosses or friends personal affairs?In this selfish so called modern world reality check starts when it comes at the personal front and directly hits you.
Polygamy and Promiscuity already exist. If all adult consenting parties are carrying it on then its their freedom of choice, why judge? Lets look into our collective societal hypocrisy.
Polygamy: Until British imposed Victorian laws on India, polygamy existed and was well accepted. Most Hindu kings and Hindu people with means were polygamous. even today, various tribes (Rajput and Jats) in Himachal and even Nepal practice one wife married to many brothers (to prevent division of property), Draupti, Raja Dashrath, all Pandava's and many wives. Our venerated Hindu icons were polygamous prior to British laws.
Promiscuity: Until islamic invasion there was no parda (veil) system, Hindu women wore two piece bikini type top (choli), a tribe (jat) that is largely follower of Shaivism, worships a phallus, takes pride in world's first ever manual on sex (that includes tips on gay, lo and behold 3sum, 4some, etc), glorifies promiscuity in erotic temple carving and worships phallus images...shall I go on more.
I rest my case
According to my knowledge, both polygammy and promiscuity are considered immoral by a wider section of Indian society. Minuscule exceptions are always there. In the eyes of law polygammy and promiscuity may not be punishable offense but these acts do not have legal sanctity either. People are, however, free to do whatever they like behind the curtains but these things cannot be propagated as routine chores.
Gayness and lesbianism are utter shame in a civilized society and people with such tendencies really need psychological treatment and de-addiction camps.
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vairesatendra
New member
Strictly against it.
Read again: it says
"PS: For the record, I am a hetro guy who is highly pro-gay. If my offsprings turn out to be gay, I will still accept, love, be proud and supportive of them just the same without any dogma or stigma associated. I have GBLT friends and have worked for highly professional and competent openly-gay boss."
DEFINITION of Offspring from Wikipedia
Human offspring (descendants) are referred to as children (without reference to age, thus one can refer to a parent's "minor children" or "adult children"); male children are sons and female children are daughters
Shavite Hinduism is the dominant religion and sect practiced by Hindi (Khadi Boli) Jats of contemporary hinterland Jats (specific sample this JL website is targeted at). Last I checked, phallus worship is a norm, NOT an exception among them. Double standards do apply in our jat society.
Sometimes, social attitude seems to be, "its acceptable and in many cases it is desirable to indulge in phallus worship (without even ever stopping to think this may be Promiscuity) because my parents and grand parents taught me to do so from childhood, but I will not tolerate GLBT as I was never taught or made aware about them"
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i m very much aware of the definition and meaning of offspring and gay.what i was trying to say that if you r hetro and have a offspring already and he or she is gay, if you have accepted her way of life then only your statement holds value for me.....i might be orthodox for some but not uneducated(Msc in science and very well versed with scientific terminologies)
Firstly, thanks for putting your view forth again.
Secondly, I commend you on continuing to engage in this taboo topic, as engagement is the first step towards exploration and eventual 'awareness'. Where many male in male-dominated jat society has shirked from engaging in discussion regarding this topic, you demonstrated moral courage to at least engage.
Thirdly, congratulations on your academic achievements as it is a good example of breaking stereotypes about jats, specially female.
Circular Iterative Argument Without Offering Evidence
Now about the topic itself. I believe, you are engaging in a circular argument without carrying teh discussion forward. There is a difference between 'logical argument' backed by evidence as opposed to deeply held personal view. I honestly do not think, this repeated reiteration of your 'personal opinion' without evidence-based logic, is adding any value to this discussion.
Unless you are prepared to entertain the possibility of accepting and supporting GLBT relative, you wont be able to do it in practice, thats the first step.
At this juncture, I urge you to review my post#13 again (Air Conditioned Cave on The Moon: Physical Progress yet Mindset Stuck In Caveman Mentality).
Food for Thoughts: Education vs Awareness vs Knowledge and Awareness
I will leave you with the following thoughts.
1. Change and acceptance begins with thought process. Those who are not even to contemplate despite ample evidence can not embrace a change in the positive direction, run the risk of becoming irrelevant, becoming out of tune with the evolving world.
2. Education is only an 'indication' of wisdom and awareness, but certainly NOT the 'proof' of it.
3. That is mainly because many 'academically educated' people chose not to be 'aware'. There is a difference between educated and "aware". Higher degree of awareness of issues is needed not high degrees/certificates.
4. Academic credentials become mere rote learning if not applied in the practice.
5. Hence, academic credential do not automatically make us more knowledgeable, wiser or issue aware.
6. With due respect to people's academic achievements and credentials, this is usually try to do like to see how people have used their education (be it formal academic credentials or informal self-taught, etc) as one of the many tools to make themselves 'issue aware' and applied into practice. Hence, I evaluate an argument (evidence-based argument or an informed hypothesis rooted in prior established knowledge) based on its merit, without any bias for the age, background or academic credentials of the presenter. Another simplistic way to understand this last statement is to view it in the context of two extreme end of the spectrum, "पढ़े लिखे अनपढ़ vs समझदार अनपढ़". Then view it in conjunction with 'Air Conditioned Cave on The Moon'.
Note: I am not making a value statement about you as I do not know you. Above-mentioned points are for you to ponder over, if you so wish.
Good night dear. Good bless you and your family.
See you tomorrow on da wall here.
Cheers! and nighty night.
V
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I did not read the post above bcoz lack of time and patience.i wrote on this thread only bcoz of my responsibilty toward our future generation for guiding them what is right or wrong.i already have this issue discussed with my teenager son and hopefully all other parents should be doing the same at appropriate time with their kids.our kids should be educated and well informed about it.last post from my side.my moral purpose is served by conveying what i think is right for our jat community children.
Its futile to debate with someone who does not accord the courtesy of hearing/reading others argument (by your own admission, also evident from your multiple posts that you have not been reading counter arguments, nor you read the very first post itself) but continues to reiterate own biased argument without supporting evidence like a stuck records. If this is the case, do us all a favor and do not post anymore because you are denying the same courtesy to other which you seek from them (your argument to be heard). Bye.
Vishal ji,
Is your support/understanding towards same gender affiliations determined by the evidence that such tendencies are genetic and can't be controlled, or is it because you are more tolerant and accepting about people?
Thanks
Is your support/understanding towards same gender affiliations determined by the evidence that such tendencies are genetic and can't be controlled, or is it because you are more tolerant and accepting about people?
Thanks
sunitahooda
New member
Vishal....Please don't direct other members when to write/what to write, if Ritu didn't have ample time to read all the posts it doesn't mean she CAN"T express herself. She admitted and your comment ain't very courteous. Anyone can still put forward their views even if they don't read all the posts.
She liked the topic. hence posted which is a nice gesture....compry?
Like I'm reading all the posts BUT not able to spare time to post my views
She liked the topic. hence posted
which is a nice gesture....compry?Like I'm reading all the posts BUT not able to spare time to post my views
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Vishal....Please don't direct other members when to write/what to write, if Ritu didn't have ample time to read all the posts it doesn't mean she CAN"T express herself. She admitted and your comment ain't very courteous. Anyone can still put forward their views even if they don't read all the posts.
She liked the topic. hence posted
Like I'm reading all the posts BUT not able to spare time to post my views
Yes, Vishal I endorse Sunita ji's views. Il faut bien comprendre monsieur.....j'espere que tu a deja compris....
Bhai google par translate kar liye.
PS: Sunita ji aapka 1 number kat diya, spelling mistake ke liye. sahi spelling is compris.
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Anjoo ji, I liked your comment as it touches upon a very fundamental aspect which we have not discussed thus far. Process of evolving attitudes, internal struggle to overcome dogma and adopt progressive views.
I will relate my journey to you with the view that this may be useful to other who are undergoing similar process. I came from middle class rural and semi-urban background of hinterland in Haryana. My social attitudes were no different from atypical people from similar background. My views gradually evolved with time, exposer, contemplation, investigating the evidence based facts, interacting with people I was biased against, confronting the strongly held dogmatic views within myself, etc.
No, it was not easy, it was scary at first, it pulled me out of my intellectual comfort zone. Some of the things I confronted, struck right at the core of my identity e.g. Jat, Indian, false sense of pride I had been thriving on, biases against others, etc. When that happens, we become more defensive and shut ourselves down. There was a stage, I will simply cling on to my viewpoint or belief, despite knowing that they were not right, purely because it was hard to let go. It took time and more courage to slowly overcome and evolve into more accepting and tolerant.
It was a combination of evidence based awareness and progressively becoming more tolerant due to exposer/interaction. It happened because I was prepared to confront and accept the evidence.
In relation to this specific topic (GLBT), it is primarily based on scientific evidence (after reviewing genetic, social and economical studies on GLBT) as well as increased tolerance towards things. This also had impact on me in other areas e.g. becoming tolerant about others doing things I myself might not be comfortable doing e.g. Same Gotra, as of now I am not comfortable doing it myself but I will be tolerant to others even if this happens in my family.
Vishal....Please don't direct other members when to write/what to write, if Ritu didn't have ample time to read all the posts it doesn't mean she CAN"T express herself. She admitted and your comment ain't very courteous. Anyone can still put forward their views even if they don't read all the posts.
She liked the topic. hence posted
Like I'm reading all the posts BUT not able to spare time to post my views
Bebe Sunita ar VPSingh Ji mein ap ka najariya samajh sakta hun. I agree with your position on freedom of expression and that people can post (even must be encouraged, not many people post, among them rare female) even when they have not read all the posts. This freedom of expression also includes my right to express my 'request' to ask for a 'favor' to spare me from this. Please note, I did not 'direct', I courtseously requested a favor). Why? Read on please.
On the other hand, it is also evident that this person did not even read my original post (PS section specifically) despite me pointing them back to it few times, but she continued to reply to my posts (not just a generic post on her part but multiple replies to my posts).
Let me explain by an example, this is akin to bunch of people discussing a topic in a chaupal, someone coming in shouting their views at a specific person without offering any evidence to back it up (even that is ok to certain degree), then zipping out and not having patience or bothering to listening to subsequent discussion in chapual, and then re-enter the chaupal to reiterate the same opinion without considering/hearing/reading all the discussion that has gone on before. Its like, I am here to say something to you, I will say it without offering evidence, but I wont bother to listen to your reply to me, I will come in later to keep reiterating the same. While I wont extend you the courtesy of listening to your reply to me but I expect you to extend me the courtesy of your audience.
I am on this thread to learn from people, including from people with views different from mine, by engaging in interactive and informed discussion, not to harp on my 'opinions' with out evidence. May be I am spoiled in the sense that bulk of the people I have discussion with come from the background where they will engage in interactive and B]evidence-based[/B] discussion in a productive and constructive manner even if confrontational at times.
If others continue to post away without bothering to engaging in interactive manner, just re-iterate opinion with no evidence, without having time or patience to review my reply to them, then they should hold on until they have time to reveiw it before posting. Otherwise, I also got no time or patience for such behavior. Please note, I am against this kind of behavior, not the person, hence I am happy to apologize to Ritu on a personal note if she felt offended as a human but I still uphold my views against that kind of behavior (basically its not about meri ego teri ego se badi type of stuff, I ams ure both me and Ritu are above this. Its about the properly engaging in discussion, if you got not time for me then don't waste my time either), with teh benefit of hindsight, may be I should have presented my view/peev differently, may be ... just may be ... but not sure yet
. Finally, I respect your freedom of expression, your view point and feedback to me, I have clarified my stand, and I thank you both for extending me the courtesy of your audience (no pun intended). Yo bi thara pyar se mere khatar jo tham na ya baat point out kari, nahi to haar koi eesa feed back na diya karta. Hugzzzzz
@Sunita: Chhori, time kaad le kime post karan ka, there arent many female on the forum, 2ndly you are among one of the rare few with JAT 'courage' to express your views or take lead even when male shy away from posting on taboo topics, 3rdly you have progressive view and hopefully it will shame our alpha male jats to confront their biases and see the light (mahri Jatni mahre te age se, you girls are the leading lights). Actually, i noticed its the female on JL who have comparatively more progressive views, may be because we jat males have suffocated and subjugated them for so long (hmmss, naya taaga shuru karna padge es pe te)
Sunita and VPSing Ji: जिस ढाल थम दोनों जाने मेरे गिल लगे सो, मनने compry या compris की नहीं, campari की जरूरत महसूस होवन लाग री स, VP Singh Ji काड़ की रखियो इक मेरे खातर with ice
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prashantacmet
New member
By the way, what is this "phallus" worship? I don't get it
"phallus" worship is "शिव लिंग की पूजा" which is not a taboo क्यों की हमें बचपन से सिखाया गया है तो हमें आदत पड़ गयी है and we do not question it or deem it promiscuous. All most all Jat villages have a Shivalaya. Prior to Arya Samaj and despite Arya Samaj most jats are Shaivite Hindus (शैव मत के हिन्दू)
Vishal....Please don't direct other members when to write/what to write, if Ritu didn't have ample time to read all the posts it doesn't mean she CAN"T express herself. She admitted and your comment ain't very courteous. Anyone can still put forward their views even if they don't read all the posts.
She liked the topic. hence posted
Like I'm reading all the posts BUT not able to spare time to post my views
Sunita bebe ar VPSingh Ji mein ap ka najariya samajh sakta hun. I agree with your position on freedom of expression and that people can post (even must be encouraged, not many people post, among them rare female) even when they have not read all the posts. This freedom of expression also includes my right to express my 'request' to ask for a 'favor' to spare me from this. Please note, I did not 'direct', I courtseously requested a favor). Why? Read on please.
On the other hand, it is also evident that this person did not even read my original post (PS section specifically) despite me pointing them back to it few times, but she continued to reply to my posts (not just a generic post on her part but multiple replies to my posts).
Let me explain by an example, this is akin to bunch of people discussing a topic in a chaupal, someone coming in shouting their views at a specific person without offering any evidence to back it up (even that is ok to certain degree), then zipping out and not having patience or bothering to listening to subsequent discussion in chapual, and then re-enter the chaupal to reiterate the same opinion without considering/hearing/reading all the discussion that has gone on before. Its like, I am here to say something to you, I will say it without offering evidence, but I wont bother to listen to your reply to me, I will come in later to keep reiterating the same. While I wont extend you the courtesy of listening to your reply to me but I expect you to extend me the courtesy of your audience.
I am on this thread to learn from people, including from people with views different from mine, by engaging in interactive and informed discussion, not to harp on my 'opinions' with out evidence. May be I am spoiled in the sense that bulk of the people I have discussion with come from the background where they will engage in interactive and B]evidence-based[/B] discussion in a productive and constructive manner even if confrontational at times.
If others continue to post away without bothering to engaging in interactive manner, just re-iterate opinion with no evidence, without having time or patience to review my reply to them, then they should hold on until they have time to reveiw it before posting. Otherwise, I also got no time or patience for such behavior (note, I am against this kind of behavior, not the person).
Finally, I respect your freedom of expression, your view point and feedback to me, I have clarified my stand, and I thank you both for extending me the courtesy of your audience. Cheers and hugzzzzz
prashantacmet
New member
I got it now. By the way, I have a question moving back and forth in my mind. You talk about scientific evidences in the favor gay and lesbian something is in their genes and they cann't control it. So Cann't we defend a rapist in the same way?..There was something in this his mind and he could not hold it on..was craving for sex....just lost control from himself..went into mental agitation...and raped a woman..it is not his fault.......it was psychological disorder or something was in hi genes that compelled him to do so................