Taboo Topic: Same sex relationships in Jats.

To avoid any confusion, this sculpture could have been given another shape like, square, round, rectangular or the shape of an object/creature. It seems to be purposefully, sculptured by Brahmins to make it resemble Shiva's body part to attract more and more lady worshippers. This new definition seems to be an afterthought. These Tamilians are conservatives of the first order. They are still living in 13th century.

VP Sir,

You may be right in saying that. I found something on wiki. Still not concluded with its meaning. It's debatable ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam

The origins and interpretations of the Lingam are a subject of intense debate. According to one tradition, the Lingam represents the beginning-less and end-less Stambha pillar, suggesting the infinite nature of Shiva.[2][3] Another theory suggests that the Lingam is a symbol of male creative energy or of the phallus[4][5]

The Lingam is often represented with the Yoni, a symbol of the goddess or of female creative energy.[4] The union represents the "indivisible two-in-oneness of male and female, the passive space and active time from which all life originates".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoni

Vivekananda's words at the congress were in connection with the paper read by Mr.Gustav Oppert, a German Orientalist, who tried to trace the origin of the Shalagrama-Shila and the Shiva-Linga to phallicism. To this Vivekananda objected,[17] adducing proof from the Vedas, and particularly the Atharva-Veda Samhita, to the effect that the Shiva-Linga had its origin in the idea of the Yupa-Stambha or Skambha—the sacrificial post, idealized in Vedic ritual as the symbol of the Eternal Brahman.[2][3] According to Vivekananda, the explanation of the Shalagrama-Shila as a phallic emblem was an imaginary invention. Vivekananda argued that the explanation of the Shiva-Linga as a phallic emblem was brought forward by the most thoughtless, and was forthcoming in India in her most degraded times, those of the downfall of Buddhism.[3]

According to Swami Sivananda, the view that the Shiva Lingam represents the phallus is a mistake;[18]
This is not only a serious mistake, but also a grave blunder. In the post-Vedic period, the Linga became symbolical of the generative power of the Lord Siva. Linga is the differentiating mark. It is certainly not the sex-mark. You will find in the Linga Purana: Pradhanam prakritir yadahur-lingamuttamam; Gandhavarnarasairhinam sabda-sparsadi-varjitam—The foremost Linga which is primary and is devoid of smell, colour, taste, hearing, touch, etc., is spoken of as Prakriti (Nature).
 
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If you calls this as the liberalization then me more than happy to be dogmatic and biased. I have noticed this thing in your post someone not having same opinion and same thinking level then it is dogmatic and biased opinion this is the way you think?? What is proof that the studies that you have read are final or absolutely correct , may be they were done by the people who were bisexual, what is the authenticity those report?? india mein to baba ramdev bolta hai ki main inn gay/lesbian ko thik kar sakta hun dave k sath if you have any take him to him.
This is something that is not natural and people who support it are making all effort to prove that it is natural.

in foreign its very much common that girls get pregnant( that too at the age of 14-18) and have kids before marriage, that is also very much normal, will you allow your kids something like that?

I really appreciate your liberalization, you have compared the man coming out from caves to accepting gayism/lesbianism..great.

I dont have any issues in accepting the people but i simple dont like there sexual orientation that is all.

Let me ask a question to you, why you joined JATLAND when you have other site awhere you will find lot many people discussing the same things?

A. Those Who Do not Agree With Me Are Not Dogmatic or Wrong: They Only Have Different Views
I have not branded or judged any individual on the forum as dogmatic.

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B. Terminology We Use is Important: "GRANULARITY" of Terminology Is Equally Important To Avoid Misinterpretation - "Not White" does not mean "Black"
I have not said those who do not agree with my views are dogmatic. This is your interpretation which might "not be accurate" (Please note the terminology, "not accurate" does not mean "wrong").

Let me help you understand with an example. If I say something is not white, it automatically does not make that object 'extreme opposite' of white (i.e. black), that object could be neutral, colorless or transparent, many shades of gray or any color in the rainbow. If you automatically assume that by saying 'not white' I imply 'black' then thats your thought process, but I would not call your thought process wrong, I will term it 'not accurate and granular enough' in this specific point. Hope this clarifies.

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C. Using Emotionally Evocative Terminology To Make People Think (good or bad, pro or anti, thinking abt the issue first is a good start
Though, it is true that some times I am knowingly trying to use terms or statement that emotionally appeal to people or strike a chord (good or bad). Reason being is, I am just trying to make audience think with my argument, not necessarily agree with me.

You may say, people are wise enough to see through this, and I would readily agree but it is still a good way to reach out to the 'inner' thinking/feeling human in other people.

There might be other, better, ways to do it and I will be happy to listen and learn about those from you or other members.

If my arguments make people think, thats a good start for me, people can then undertake their own journey. Please refer to my text in Anjoo's post# 53.

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D. I Will Accept/Alter My Views Only If You Refute My Arguments With Verifiable Scientific Evidence (yet I will respect your right to have non-scientific arm chair opinion)
You have raised interesting (interesting doe snot mean right or wrong or valid, please note the terminology I use). I have at least presented the scientific evidences based on verifiable and repeatable studies.

If you are countering or questioning them, you are entitled to that opinion and I respect that entitlement and your right, but it will not sway me unless you provide me scientific evidence to refute my statement. If you believe in your refuting statements then dig out some evidence, I will be happy to review. Otherwise, its just an arm chair opinion. धुल में लट्ठ कोई बी मार सकता है, back your argument with evidence if you wish to take this discussion forward. Show me a counter study that study i have provided is wrong or show anotehr study that refutes the results of study.

Same thing about your argument about baba ramdev, I can not go out find gays and force them to go to baba ramdev and there are millions of people making such claims. it comes down to same thing again. Dont throw random claims on me. Show me a scientific study that verifies that baba ramdev can cure and then I will respond.


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E. Answer to Personal Question Posed to Me: Discussion Is About My Ideology/Attitude, Not About My Personal Life, yet I will answer this time.

E.1 Difference Between "Ideology We Subscribe To" versus "What We Practice"
You asked me some personal questions. There is a difference Between "Ideology We Subscribe To" versus "What We Practice".

First of All, this debate (शःस्त्रर्थ) it is not about my personal life. It is about ideology I subscribe to. So lets debate 'ideology' based on arguments backed up by scientific evidence. And then determine the validity of the argument based on the evidence, regardless of the person putting forth the argument practices it or not, believes in it or not. Its the scientific-evidence that should matter, not the person. Its not a personal matter of ego ke kaon sahi ha ya nahi.

If the person who is advocating and putting forth the argument does not practice the argument, then it makes the person hypocrite but the argument itself still remains valid based on the evidence. Then you can judge the person negatively but must judge the argument positively/valid


E.2 Question Of Personal Nature: Whose Business Is That? - I will make an exception here and answer it
As explained before, my personal life is no ones business (unless the person has created a personal rapport with me and posed the question in private), still I will make an exception here. Re: my offspring having child out of wed lock, I do not see a problem as long as they are of age where medically their body is mature enough to go through the process. My concern for my offspring will be about their happiness, safety, health and (if possible) financial security. Apart from that, if they do things that may not be social norms accepted by the 'majority', so be it. I will love them just the same, be proud of them as a parent, try to shield them from unnecessary guilt or undue pressure from others.

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F. What is Your Intent to Question My Presence on JL or My "So Called' Taboo Posts? - जिस तरा तू आया, नु इ में आया, भाई ना में ठेकेदार ना तू, सही बात से क नहीं ;)
Whats wrong in me joining JL or discussing taboo topic on JL?
Are you questioning my right to chose to join JL or my right to freedom or expression?
Bhai, I do not get you, please enlighten me as to the intent of your question.

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Raam Ramm Bhai... Bhool Chook Hoi Ho Koi, Kimme Baat Ka Bura Laag Ja to 'ADVANCE Mei MAAFI' de diye, ... view may differ lekin our humane friend remains ... chaal pher ya lee eek jaffi ... pappi ja ke aapni GF te maang <toink> <toink> ... lol
 
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VP Sir,

You may be right in saying that. I found something on wiki. Still not concluded with its meaning. It's debatable ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam

Thanks Atish for sharing the information.
पर भाई मैंने इन अन्ध्विशासी और ठग पुजारियां की बात पै विश्वास सा न हो रह्या. और छानबीन करण की जरूरत सै, कदे ये झूठ बोल रे हों. लाग्या रह.
 
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Many people have given argument and counter arguments about the meaning of the Shiv Lingam.

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Real Meaning of Shiv Lingam: Sculpture of Sex Organs with various Symbolic and Higher Meanings

Members have given many meaning of Shiv Lingam. Regardless of what those meaning are (including one that says sculpture, etc), one thing is very clear this is a sculpture of male sex organ jutting out of female sex organ. Its very visible, in fine details (not a rough similarity). Now people can argue and debate but it is clear we worship two sex organs, though there may be many 'symbolic' well intended, pious, etc explanation.

I originally wrote about Shiv Lingam in response to a post that said we should not allow 'promiscuous' things in Jat samaj including openly same sex relationships.

I argued, jat samaj already accepts many promiscuous things, its our attitude not the acceptance of promiscuous things. Why some so-called promiscuous things are acceptable (worship of sex organs and their blatantly visible sculpture) and why some so-called promiscuous things are not acceptable (e.g. GLBT relations even if they are not having public sex)? it is to do with our attitude and long held biases.

I wanted to bare the hypocrisy in our attitude and thought process, never intended to initiate a debate on the deeper symbolic meaning of Shiva's sex and his consorts sex organs. To me, if we do not accept GLBT mainly because we deem them promiscuous yet we tolerant or accept or even indulge in the worship of sex organs and we do not find them promiscuous, then we better think again :)

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Symbolic and Higher Meanings Can be Reverse Engineered and Assigned to Anything (even to Bad things like rape) to make them sound divine/acceptable - see example below
More on the symbolic meaning of the sex organs of shiva and parvati (worshiped by Hindus). Eek andha bhi tatol tatol ke bata sakta hai ke wo sex organs hai chahe us ka symbolic meaning kuch bhi ho.

Agar symbolic meaning hi nikalne hain, to aur kuch kyon nahi mila.

I think this may have happened (only possible among many), hinduism is evolution of animistic and naturalistic religious practices. Later people started to assign higher, symbolic meanings.

For example:
A painter may create a master piece and die. later critics will debate, write thesises and find higher meaning which the poor original painter may have never though of. Give me a word or scenario and I can start justifying it (reverse engineer several higher symbolic meanings while providing references to unrelated verses from scriptures). For example, we can say GLBT are superiors because they are biologically not same as us, e.g. a transgender person has mix of male and female organs to woh bhagwan Shiv aur mata parvati ke avtar woh 'shiv ling jutting out of yoni' ke jite jagte avtar hain, they represent maya, they respresent creation and self sufficiency, (and so on and on...) they are kalyug ke avtar, un ki pooja karni chahiye... etc. This example is for illustration purpose, I do not intend to argue GLBT are superior or inferior, my point is they are same as us except sexual orientation. by this example I wish to argue that, it is easy to manufacture 'higher' symbolic meaning for नंगे पुंगे sex organs or even bad deeds (even repulsive rape).

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Whats I am Trying to Convey - Our Attitude Makes Things Acceptable or Not, Lets challenge our selective application of attitudes
I am not pro or anti such worship or higher symbolic divine assignment of meaning. I used this as an example to state the following:
So called promiscuity does exist in jat samaj, its our attitude and meaning we assign to them that makes them divinely acceptable or repulsive. Path to tolerance and acceptance is through change in personal attitudes.


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Now can we please get back to discussing GLBT :)

थम करो बात चीत, में ईबे आया, कुण्डी सोटे का प्रयोग कर के कोई ख़ास दवाई बनान खातर (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvgo53BBR2U) <toinkz> <toinkz> ... lol

हर हर महादेव
बम बम भोले
 
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Vishal ji,

Agree with you to a certain point. First and foremost, it is your attitude that allows you to respect people in general and accept the differences/ deviants, before you weigh the evidences. Right?

Regards

Thanks Anjoo. You put it in a much better and more granular manner than me. I will remember and shameless use it in the future.

You said it rightly, "FIRST we must have an open attitude, BEFORE we weigh the evidence" otherwise we will keep refusing to accept the evidence without 'refuting' it with an evidence-based scientific counter argument.
 
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Many people have given argument and counter arguments about the meaning of the Shiv Lingam.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Real Meaning of Shiv Lingam: Sculpture of Sex Organs with various Symbolic and Higher Meanings

Members have given many meaning of Shiv Lingam. Regardless of what those meaning are (including one that says sculpture, etc), one thing is very clear this is a sculpture of male sex organ jutting out of female sex organ. Its very visible, in fine details (not a rough similarity). Now people can argue and debate but it is clear we worship two sex organs, though there may be many 'symbolic' well intended, pious, etc explanation.


बम बम भोले

Excellent and crystal clear explanation about symbolism of the mysterious sculpture.
 
You dismissed my theory, fair enough. Now, I have a question as a student.
1. What is the basic purpose/origin of this ritual, the logic behind this 'pillar' worship and its benefits?
2. I would out-rightly reject the Hindu mythology written by idle Brahmins.

3. Please base your analysis on scientific reasoning supported by visible and tangible evidences and the applicability of the benefits of this tradition in contemporary world.

1. Respected Sir, I did NOT dismissed your (!) theory. Since every poster in this thread had assumed (!!) Shiv Ling as 'Phallus', I just pointed out that this might NOT be the case. [I said "many linguistics believe..." not "all Linguistics"]

2. I would not accept or reject Hindu mythology written by idle (btw if they were writing, it means they were not Idle.. :D) Brahmins. After all it is mythology.

3. Well, scientific reasons would outrightly reject the whole concept of any kind of rituals/worshiping and associated superstitions.

Nonetheless scientifically speaking, the 'benefits' of going to temples for worshiping Shiva (Lingam or not) in contemporary world include:

A) best scenario: Among the crowd, you see a beautiful girl (and vice-versa); certain hormones play their roles, you fall in love and get married or get a gf. Happy ending.

OR

B) In worst case: As a part of crowd, you breath the air contaminated by sick (literal) (wo)men; you too get sick and thanks to recklessness by doctors, you get really sick and DIE... which is doubly-ironic [because Shiva is supposed to be the destroyer and he did his job to the perfection even though death was not something you wished for.]


P.S. Is it not strange that Shiva whom Hindu mythology paints as the "destroyer of the universe" is associated with evolution-of-life/birth/conceive (if the shiva-lingam-is-the-phallus theory is correct)?
Common sense suggests that there would be Brahma-Lingam as Brahma is supposed to be the creator of universe (and hence life). Any thoughts?
 
To avoid any confusion, this sculpture could have been given another shape like, square, round, rectangular or the shape of an object/creature. It seems to be purposefully, sculptured by Brahmins to make it resemble Shiva's body part to attract more and more lady worshippers. This new definition seems to be an afterthought. These Tamilians are conservatives of the first order. They are still living in 13th century.

VP Singh ji,

Here is another school of thoughts:

To avoid any confusion that Shivling is indeed Shiva's body part, they could have attached Shiva's remaining body with this part but they didn't; which means (henceforth, I am following your logic) the assumption that the object in question is indeed Shiva's body part appears an afterthought, purportedly perpetuated by some nasty people to downgrade the Hindu mythology. :D
This could also be a part of attempts by the missionaries to attract/convert unsuspected Hindus to other religions. These nasty people are the converters of highest order. They are still living in the days of Crusaders. :)
 
Common sense suggests that there would be Brahma-Lingam as Brahma is supposed to be the creator of universe (and hence life). Any thoughts?

Its already mentioned that Shiv is Maha shiv, Maha shakti hence we celebrate Mahashivratri. Bhrama and Vishnu are created by/part of Shiv shambu himself. Moreover Bhrama was cursed that he would never be worshiped.
 
This is as per Shiv puran. There are other who thinks Vishnu is ultimate. They think Shiva is demi god and not ultimate. However Vishnu can be seen as worshipping shiva and shiva as worshippping Vishnu. Whatever you say they both are form of GOD. Ahmedi believes that krishna (and thus Vishnu) was a prophet(or son of GOD) like Jesus. Some similar things are there in Christinity(trinity) as well. It was islam which said GOD has no form and cannot reproduce like us and hence can have no son/daughter and wife. They emphasized on ONE GOD who is shapeless and cannot be described or pictured.

The crux is there are 3 sorts of people :
1 Who believe in GOD.
2.Who dont believe in GOD.
3.Who are confused

Those who believe in GOD worship it in diff forms, shapes, way and those who claim their way of worshipping is superior to others are only ignorant and should be ignored. A man should be free to choose his own path. If followed sincerly and honestly they all are great and lead to one destination that is param bhram.


Whatever you believe, its quite clear that whoever follow shivpuran or those who worship Shiva, for them this has a very deep meaning and shouldn't be ridiculed. I said our civilisation is richer because it says "apar dharm means good karmas with sattvic motivation where a person is devoted to God in a conventional manner, which means a general faith in all the forms of God. Such good karmas pacify the mind of the doer in the existing life" People has, in history, often attacked foreign thoughts, ways and religions. To me such people cannot be true follower of GOD which they claim to be. The people who dont understand their religion or who are ignorant ultimately get converted. Some also get converted for money or by sword.


Now, as the OP has requested lets go back to GBLT etc. God can be discussed some where else.
 
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“I m sure 99% of jatnis think the same way.”
The reason for me to come forward and respond to your call out to so call Jatnis is because I can relate to you at a few platforms:
First is just like yourself I am a mother.
Secondly academically I have completed a post grad degree (although it doesn't matter)
Third just like you I am living overseas.
I responded to your first response in the tread as well.
My prespective tough in regards to GLBT is different to yours. I concur with Anjuoo’s response it is your attitude that allows you to respect people in general and accept the differences/ deviants, before you weigh the evidences. Right? to the thread. I understand we all have to live with the morals laid down by the society but this society is evolving all the time, therefore reminding everyone to evolve and change. Living up to the society and morals is a hard task therefore I would rather choose my own path diligently and thoughtfully and keep my thought process open to adopt a change worth accepting.
Having said that I am endeavouring to raise a good human being. I will not be very concerned with his choice of partner till the time its a human being but I will be very concerned if he fails to treat his partner respectfully. I will not accept at any cost a son that is disrespecting of any human or living kind. If I achieve that I will be the happiest mother.
I am not going to burden him with anymore expectation. :)
 
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Thanks Atish for sharing the information.
पर भाई मैंने इन अन्ध्विशासी और ठग पुजारियां की बात पै विश्वास सा न हो रह्या. और छानबीन करण की जरूरत सै, कदे ये झूठ बोल रे हों. लाग्या रह.


Itni gehri jaanch padtaal ke liye kaafi samay chahiye..I mean aadha adhoora Gyan baatna sahi nahi hoga...But yes..I am in the same boat. I have the same perception as you have about these Pakhandi Pujaris who are running their businesses to fool people. And also trend is shifting from superstitious thinking to logical and scientific reasoning.
 
Nonetheless scientifically speaking, the 'benefits' of going to temples for worshiping Shiva (Lingam or not) in contemporary world include:

A) best scenario: Among the crowd, you see a beautiful girl (and vice-versa); certain hormones play their roles, you fall in love and get married or get a gf. Happy ending.

In sync. with you. The probable scenario is, perhaps, supported by the fact that the magnetic fields are active in religious shrines too and the radioactive waves emitted by our eyes in such gatherings may impact the secretion of love hormones reminding us, especially the boys and girls, of Shiva and Parvati saga. Those who go to temple/shrine with this objective cannot be considered as superstitious and I am sure their act of doing so is as pious as the love of Shiva and Parvati.

I liked your reply.
 
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VP Singh ji,

Here is another school of thoughts:

To avoid any confusion that Shivling is indeed Shiva's body part, they could have attached Shiva's remaining body with this part but they didn't; which means (henceforth, I am following your logic) the assumption that the object in question is indeed Shiva's body part appears an afterthought, purportedly perpetuated by some nasty people to downgrade the Hindu mythology. :D
This could also be a part of attempts by the missionaries to attract/convert unsuspected Hindus to other religions. These nasty people are the converters of highest order. They are still living in the days of Crusaders. :)

I agree with you, Sunil. The theory to downgrade Hindu mythology cannot be ruled out. Other religious missionaries are NOT less orthodox and nasty.
 
1. Respected Sir, I did NOT dismissed your (!) theory. Since every poster in this thread had assumed (!!) Shiv Ling as 'Phallus', I just pointed out that this might NOT be the case. [I said "many linguistics believe..." not "all Linguistics"]

2. I would not accept or reject Hindu mythology written by idle (btw if they were writing, it means they were not Idle.. :D) Brahmins. After all it is mythology.

3. Well, scientific reasons would outrightly reject the whole concept of any kind of rituals/worshiping and associated superstitions.

Nonetheless scientifically speaking, the 'benefits' of going to temples for worshiping Shiva (Lingam or not) in contemporary world include:

A) best scenario: Among the crowd, you see a beautiful girl (and vice-versa); certain hormones play their roles, you fall in love and get married or get a gf. Happy ending.

OR

B) In worst case: As a part of crowd, you breath the air contaminated by sick (literal) (wo)men; you too get sick and thanks to recklessness by doctors, you get really sick and DIE... which is doubly-ironic [because Shiva is supposed to be the destroyer and he did his job to the perfection even though death was not something you wished for.]


P.S. Is it not strange that Shiva whom Hindu mythology paints as the "destroyer of the universe" is associated with evolution-of-life/birth/conceive (if the shiva-lingam-is-the-phallus theory is correct)?
Common sense suggests that there would be Brahma-Lingam as Brahma is supposed to be the creator of universe (and hence life). Any thoughts?

lol Sunill, nicely put in a humorous manner. ThreadYou put the serious points across in a funny manner. We can do more with such posts, seeng aada aada ke dukhi ho liye ... lol

When I raised the Shiv-Lingam, it was to demonstrate so-called promiscuity does exist in jat Samaj and we should not label promiscuity. Detailed Discussion on Shiv-Lingam and sex-starved creator of such a symbol are probably topic for another thread. Lets get back to GLBT Please.
 

F. What is Your Intent to Question My Presence on JL or My "So Called' Taboo Posts? - जिस तरा तू आया, नु इ में आया, भाई ना में ठेकेदार ना तू, सही बात से क नहीं ;)
Whats wrong in me joining JL or discussing taboo topic on JL?
Are you questioning my right to chose to join JL or my right to freedom or expression?
Bhai, I do not get you, please enlighten me as to the intent of your question.


First of all let me tell you that you are very smart with articulation.

App bilkul sahi na aap thekedar ho aur na main.
Mera intent sawal ye tha , Jatland pe aate ho aur fir ye bhi kahte ho ki hume jatiwad( not explicitly i mean that) bhi nahi karna chahiye. Filhal mujhe aap issi caregory mein lagte ho so carry on please.

Kahin maine padha tha
"jaisa dekhogey chitar vaisa hoga charitat and jaisa khaogey ann vaisa hoga mann" N for you i think both have changed so totally in synch with you.

Bhai aap in genes ki maa behan karo and apne studies ko sahi mano.

Meri ideology to byah bhi pani jati mein karne ki hai and wahi karunga.

Bhai Tune naya naya likhna shuru kiya hai ye sab topic ki pahle bahut maa behan ho chuki hai tu laga rhaa hai...all the very best to you for this.

Nothing personnel.
 
Those who are so inclined can do so. As of today, I am disinterested :)

Bhai, Why not create a thread, which Non-Mod is the best Mod to crate such a thread <toinkz> <toinkz>

Everyone knows who is more inclined.

I already know that who is best Non-Mod to crate such a thread.:rock
 
Everyone knows who is more inclined.

I already know that who is best Non-Mod to crate such a thread.:rock

Thread pe thread "me lord" ...

Btw, who deleted your Thread? I personally thought it was hilarious. So what if people on the list did not want to be MODs, i do not think they (me included) object or take offence to the thread. We need more humor.

MODs, please restore Akshay's thread. I am hoping people will respond in jest and not seriously.
 
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