Taboo Topic: Same sex relationships in Jats.

[vdhillon]

I got it now. By the way, I have a question moving back and forth in my mind. You talk about scientific evidences in the favor gay and lesbian something is in their genes and they cann't control it. So Cann't we defend a rapist in the same way?..There was something in this his mind and he could not hold it on..was craving for sex....just lost control from himself..went into mental agitation...and raped a woman..it is not his fault.......it was psychological disorder or something was in hi genes that compelled him to do so................

A. I Commend Your Curiosity and Willingness To Discuss Evidence
Yes you are raised an interesting point and this kind of investigation, questions and challenging things lead us to more informed decisions. I thank you as well as commend you daring to venture in this dark area, shows at least you are open to the facts.

B. Diff Between Rights of Rapist and GLBT
IMO, there are few key differences:
B.1. GLBT are Genetically Pre-Programmed but No Evidence that Rapist are Genetically Programmed:
Though GLBT may be genetically pre-determined (not just environmental or social factors) but there is no 'DIRECT (emphasis)' evidence that some people are genetically programmed to 'rape'. They may be genetically, biologically or mentally suffering from other ailments which may make them to have less control or reduced comprehension of implications of their actions. What I mean to say is those ailments may be secondary factors as opposed to direct evidence e.g. HIV/AIDS does not directly kill a person. It merely kills our immune system, our immune system can no longer fight other diseases, and those other diseases kill us. So HIV/AID can be cured either by finding a way to directly kill HIV/AIDS virus or finding a way to boost the immune system despite having HIV/ADIS (continuous re-fortification).

B.2. Principal of Freedom to Chose Without Hurting Others: Rapists Hurt Another Party, but GLBT do not
To me, this is the most important factor that differentiates our judgement about 'rapists' vs 'GLBT'. GLBT are free to live their life style as they are not imposing their will or harming a 3rd person. Whereas a rapist imposes himself/herself and hurts a non-consenting party. Hypothetically, lets assume both GLBT and Rapists are Genetically pre-disposed but this diff about hurting other party is a clincher for me. For this reason alone I will still support GLBT but be against rapists - personally this nails it for me.

C. Welcoming the Further Discussion
Im interested in your views, both pro and cons. If pro (agreeable) then it will help to deepen my own understanding and accumulate 'weight of evidence' in favor, if 'counter' views then it may again help to deepen my understanding by looking at newer facts. In general, I am open to learn more based on the evidence and having my thinking challenged/altered accordingly. I am very opinionated but that does not automatically make me knowledgeable. I have 'awareness (sufficient to make an informed decision)' of some (not all) issues bu this doe snot automatically makes me an 'expert' in that subject. Hence, the reason for me to be here to discuss and learn more from other people (such as yourself), but only from those who wish to sincerely engage and interactively discuss based on facts.

 

[spdeshwal]

मूलतः स्त्री पुरुष में शारीरिक सम्बन्ध प्रजनन किर्या का हिस्सा है !
स्त्री पुरुष की शारीरिक सरंचना भी इसी रूप में हुई है !
भगवान् , या जिस भी प्राकृतिक शक्ति ने इंसान बनाया है, प्रक्रति के कुछ सटीक नियमो के अनुसार ही बनाया है !
स्त्री पुरुष में कामुक प्रिक्रिया व् शारीरिक सम्बन्ध भी प्राकृतिक नियमो व् मरियादाओं के अनुरूप ही प्रेरित होता है और घटित होता है !
उन प्राकृतिक नियमो के प्रतिकूल किया गया आचरण , किसी मानसिक व् शारीरिक विकार का प्रतिफल ही होगा!

मनुष्य ही क्यों, पशु पक्षियों में भी शारीरिक सम्बन्ध नर मादा में ही होता है!
संभवतः: मनुष्य, पाशाण युग में या उससे पहले, शारीरिक सम्बन्ध केवल प्रजनन के लिए ही बनाता होगा !
जैसे २ मनुष्य सभ्य होता गया संबंधों में स्थायित्व व् वैवाहि संस्था का विकाश हुआ, यह मन बहलाव का प्रमुख स्रोत भी बन गया!
अतः: मेरा दृढ मत है की पुरुष का पुरुष के प्रति व् स्त्री का स्त्री प्रति कामुक आकर्षण अप्राकृतिक है!
इस तरह के व्यव्हार में संलिप्त जोड़े मानशिक विकार से ग्रस्त हैं !
में यहाँ ये भी कहना चाहूँगा कि मेरा सम्लेंगिकों के प्रति कोई दुराभाव नहीं बल्कि , किसी दुसरे मानसिक रोगी तरह ही उदार व् दयाभाव ही होगा!

सत्यपाल

 

[cooljat]

.

Couldn't agree more. Concur with Bhaisaab's pragmatic explanation.
I wonder how people try to justify unnatural acts ...

Vishal, Satyapal ji explained it well .. my views are same in sync with his views.

Cheers
Jit

मूलतः स्त्री पुरुष में शारीरिक सम्बन्ध प्रजनन किर्या का हिस्सा है !
स्त्री पुरुष की शारीरिक सरंचना भी इसी रूप में हुई है !
भगवान् , या जिस भी प्राकृतिक शक्ति ने इंसान बनाया है, प्रक्रति के कुछ सटीक नियमो के अनुसार ही बनाया है !
स्त्री पुरुष में कामुक प्रिक्रिया व् शारीरिक सम्बन्ध भी प्राकृतिक नियमो व् मरियादाओं के अनुरूप ही प्रेरित होता है और घटित होता है !
उन प्राकृतिक नियमो के प्रतिकूल किया गया आचरण , किसी मानसिक व् शारीरिक विकार का प्रतिफल ही होगा!

मनुष्य ही क्यों, पशु पक्षियों में भी शारीरिक सम्बन्ध नर मादा में ही होता है!
संभवतः: मनुष्य, पाशाण युग में या उससे पहले, शारीरिक सम्बन्ध केवल प्रजनन के लिए ही बनाता होगा !
जैसे २ मनुष्य सभ्य होता गया संबंधों में स्थायित्व व् वैवाहि संस्था का विकाश हुआ, यह मन बहलाव का प्रमुख स्रोत भी बन गया!
अतः: मेरा दृढ मत है की पुरुष का पुरुष के प्रति व् स्त्री का स्त्री प्रति कामुक आकर्षण अप्राकृतिक है!
इस तरह के व्यव्हार में संलिप्त जोड़े मानशिक विकार से ग्रस्त हैं !
में यहाँ ये भी कहना चाहूँगा कि मेरा सम्लेंगिकों के प्रति कोई दुराभाव नहीं बल्कि , किसी दुसरे मानसिक रोगी तरह ही उदार व् दयाभाव ही होगा!

सत्यपाल

 

[vdhillon]

.

Couldn't agree more. Concur with Bhaisaab's pragmatic explanation.
I wonder how people try to justify unnatural acts ...

Vishal, Satyapal ji explained it well .. my views are same in sync with his views.

Cheers
Jit

Re bawle, tu ade kisa ees tagge me uljha pada s, aaj to haam sare 'Honey, pyar ke kissi" aale tagge pe jee sa le re saa... aaja ude ar chaap de eek aad kissa, ees tagge ne kaal dekha ge

 

[singhvp]

"phallus" worship is "शिव लिंग की पूजा" which is not a taboo क्यों की हमें बचपन से सिखाया गया है तो हमें आदत पड़ गयी है and we do not question it or deem it promiscuous. All most all Jat villages have a Shivalaya. Prior to Arya Samaj and despite Arya Samaj most jats are Shaivite Hindus (शैव मत के हिन्दू)

Fully agree with you. This amounts to preach promiscuity and spread superstition. Young girls are beguiled into believing that they will get as handsome and virile a husband as Lord Shiva if they worship "phallus" ( शिव लिंग). Ironically, this superstitious tradition is being practiced by many young and educated girls also who do not take pains to find any scientific reasoning behind this.

 

[sanjaymalik]

मूलतः स्त्री पुरुष में शारीरिक सम्बन्ध प्रजनन किर्या का हिस्सा है !
स्त्री पुरुष की शारीरिक सरंचना भी इसी रूप में हुई है !
भगवान् , या जिस भी प्राकृतिक शक्ति ने इंसान बनाया है, प्रक्रति के कुछ सटीक नियमो के अनुसार ही बनाया है !
स्त्री पुरुष में कामुक प्रिक्रिया व् शारीरिक सम्बन्ध भी प्राकृतिक नियमो व् मरियादाओं के अनुरूप ही प्रेरित होता है और घटित होता है !
उन प्राकृतिक नियमो के प्रतिकूल किया गया आचरण , किसी मानसिक व् शारीरिक विकार का प्रतिफल ही होगा!

मनुष्य ही क्यों, पशु पक्षियों में भी शारीरिक सम्बन्ध नर मादा में ही होता है!
संभवतः: मनुष्य, पाशाण युग में या उससे पहले, शारीरिक सम्बन्ध केवल प्रजनन के लिए ही बनाता होगा !
जैसे २ मनुष्य सभ्य होता गया संबंधों में स्थायित्व व् वैवाहि संस्था का विकाश हुआ, यह मन बहलाव का प्रमुख स्रोत भी बन गया!
अतः: मेरा दृढ मत है की पुरुष का पुरुष के प्रति व् स्त्री का स्त्री प्रति कामुक आकर्षण अप्राकृतिक है!
इस तरह के व्यव्हार में संलिप्त जोड़े मानशिक विकार से ग्रस्त हैं !
में यहाँ ये भी कहना चाहूँगा कि मेरा सम्लेंगिकों के प्रति कोई दुराभाव नहीं बल्कि , किसी दुसरे मानसिक रोगी तरह ही उदार व् दयाभाव ही होगा!

सत्यपाल

Deswal Sir, bin ki bin. Totally concur with you. Such kind of relationship are totally against the Nature. Nature has asigned particular function to particular sex and spices.

 

[upendersingh]

मूलतः स्त्री पुरुष में शारीरिक सम्बन्ध प्रजनन किर्या का हिस्सा है !
स्त्री पुरुष की शारीरिक सरंचना भी इसी रूप में हुई है !
भगवान् , या जिस भी प्राकृतिक शक्ति ने इंसान बनाया है, प्रक्रति के कुछ सटीक नियमो के अनुसार ही बनाया है !
स्त्री पुरुष में कामुक प्रिक्रिया व् शारीरिक सम्बन्ध भी प्राकृतिक नियमो व् मरियादाओं के अनुरूप ही प्रेरित होता है और घटित होता है !
उन प्राकृतिक नियमो के प्रतिकूल किया गया आचरण , किसी मानसिक व् शारीरिक विकार का प्रतिफल ही होगा!

मनुष्य ही क्यों, पशु पक्षियों में भी शारीरिक सम्बन्ध नर मादा में ही होता है!
संभवतः: मनुष्य, पाशाण युग में या उससे पहले, शारीरिक सम्बन्ध केवल प्रजनन के लिए ही बनाता होगा !
जैसे २ मनुष्य सभ्य होता गया संबंधों में स्थायित्व व् वैवाहि संस्था का विकाश हुआ, यह मन बहलाव का प्रमुख स्रोत भी बन गया!
अतः: मेरा दृढ मत है की पुरुष का पुरुष के प्रति व् स्त्री का स्त्री प्रति कामुक आकर्षण अप्राकृतिक है!
इस तरह के व्यव्हार में संलिप्त जोड़े मानशिक विकार से ग्रस्त हैं !
में यहाँ ये भी कहना चाहूँगा कि मेरा सम्लेंगिकों के प्रति कोई दुराभाव नहीं बल्कि , किसी दुसरे मानसिक रोगी तरह ही उदार व् दयाभाव ही होगा!

सत्यपाल

9.5/10. Very well said SPD sir.

 

[ravichaudhary]

"phallus" worship is "शिव लिंग की पूजा" which is not a taboo क्यों की हमें बचपन से सिखाया गया है तो हमें आदत पड़ गयी है and we do not question it or deem it promiscuous. All most all Jat villages have a Shivalaya. Prior to Arya Samaj and despite Arya Samaj most jats are Shaivite Hindus (शैव मत के हिन्दू)

It is unfortunate that some, reduce the concept of ‘ Shivji” to a phallic symbol.


Indeed, if asked, millions of Hindu ladies, who go and do Puja at a Shivlingam, would probably answer that that linkage is furthest from their thoughts.


Those interested , in going deeper may wish to read an article below; URL also supplied.

There is more ,. But this will be a start.


Ravi Chaudhary


http://www.shaivam.org/articles/art_sivalinga_saba.htm


Siva Linga
by S. Sabaratna Mudaliar
(S. Sabaratna Mudaliyar of Sri Lanka was the Deputy Fiscal of Jaffna. In Ceylon, "Mudaliyar" is a coveted title and not an honorific suffix. He felt that a mischievous propaganda was carried against Hinduism on purpose. Indeed he was once himself a victim of such vituperative tirade. He woke up in time and assiduously applied himself to a proper study of Hinduism in general, and Saivism in particular. His outstanding contribution to Saivism is his work entitled: "Essentials of Hinduism, In the Light of Saiva Siddanta" (1913). Hereunder is printed his lecture, delivered at the Jaffna Hindu College Hall, on 21 February 1913. If the concept of Siva Linga does not lie within the ken of the comprehension of even gods like Vishnu and Brahmma, can we expect unsympathetic and intolerant fanatics to even glimpse it? - Editor.)
Siva Linga is a sacred object of worship among the 200 millions of Hindus who occupy the vast continent of India and the spicy isle of Ceylon. They represent a seventh part of the population of the whole world and they enjoy an unrivalled reputation for their ancient civilization. Their religion is admittedly the oldest of the exising religions and it is an undeniable fact that it has created an exceptionally high degree of spiritual fervour in the hearts of its adherents. The effect of the religion on its adherents could be easily gauged from the standard or morality maintained by them, and I am sure that a crime statistics of the different countries of the world would show the "Mild Hindu" to great advantage. The object of worship of such a people should not be attacked at random, and the feelings of the 200 millions offended for no mistake committed by them. I do not think that the propagation of any religion involves the necessity of offending the feelings of believers in other religions; but on the contrary, it is, I think, the duty of every believer in God that he does not in any way hurt the feelings of others who likewise believe in God, but in a different form. I am very sorry to find that this important duty of man is lost sight of by some of our Christian friends who would not scruple to call Siva LInga, our sacred object of worship, a Phallic emblem. If this is what is known as Christian principle, I will speak no more of it. Let it speak for itself.
But I am glad that this uncalled for and unpardonable attack on the part of a Christian writer has given the Hindus an opportunity to explain the true significance of Siva Linga, and I therefore consider it my duty, as a Hindu, to lay before the public the little that I know of the subject.
Before entering into an explanation of Shiva Linga, I have to say a few words on the meaning of the word Linga. Linga is derived from the Sanskrit root Lika which means to sculpture or to paint, and Linga means one that sculptures or paints. God being the Sculptor of the Universe, He is known as Linga, and this word has become ultimately to mean any form or symbol that represents Him. It has become in a later stage to mean any sign or symbol, in a general sense, and it is in this sense the word is used now. Refer to any Dictionary - Sanskrit or Tamil -, and you will find the meaning of the word as a symbol or mark - a சின்னம், a குறி. The word is used in this sense by Lexicographers, Grammarians and Logicians; and it may even be found as a technical term used in this sense in Hindu Logic. Lingapattiam is the name of a commentary on the meanings of Sanskrit words, and one could clearly see in what sense the word is used as the title of that Book. But of course, in course of time, the word happened to convey other meanings as well and among them that of the generative organ, by the common law of degeneration of words which is not peculiar to Tamil or Sanskrit alone. Even then, this degenerated import of the word is not its chief meaning, but it is only a secondary one of very rare use. How the word happened to be used in this sense could itself be easily traced. There is an etymological rule in Tamil known as இடக்கரடக்கல் which is a form of decorum used in giving expression to objects which would not admit of open mention. The genital organ came to be referred according to this rule as இலிஙம் or குறி, and the use of these words in this sense has become a fashion in course of time. Not only the word Lingam but the word Kuri itself is used in this sense; but no one who has any idea of Tamil will contend that every Kuri is a genital organ. The word Kuri means a punctuation, a brandmark &c., &c., and I am sure that no punctuation, will ever be said to represent a genital organ.
Another derivation, of the wrd Lingam is Llng, which means involution, and Gam, which means evolution. So, that Lingam is the principle of involution and evolution combined together, and such a combination can only be traced to God, the primordial cause of the whole Jagat.
It could thus be clearly seen that the radical meaning of the word Lingam does not in the least convey any sense applicable to the generative organ, but, on the contrary, the real meaning of the word may be found so sublime and so deep that it will immensely benefit one to scrutinise the word and learn its meaning analytically.
So far for the word Lingam. I will now proceed to explain, as briefly as I can, the meaning of Siva Lingam, but I must say at the outset that this object has a large stock of mysticism about it which can only be explained by an adept for whose qualifications I have the least pretence. Siva Lingam is explained at great length by Siva Agamas and several Puranas; and the Vedas themselves could be found to have their own explanation of Siva Lingam.
It is the main principle of Hindu philosophy - and I am sure that principle is admitted by all religions -, that every particle of this great Jagat is moved by God. There cannot be any movement without God, and the existence of the universe would be altogether impossible without Divine energy. The principle of creation has been very minutely and systematically described in our sastras according to which Siva Linga is the embodiment of the cosmic creation. There was the Nirguna Brahm; and there was the primordial cosmic element called Maya. What was the course taken by the Divine Energy in producing the cosmic world out of Maya? Maya is an extremely subtle matter without any form or shape, and it is of two kinds - Suddha Maya and Asuddha Maya - or the lower and upper Maya. This Maya is in the presence of Sivam or Nirguna Brahm and that of its Sakti or Divine Energy. This Sakti having energised Suddha Maya, the Mundane egg of the universe was formed. This was Nadha or the principle of sound. This was what is known as Nama or name - the first expression of limitation. From this Nadha or Name came out Bhindu or Rupa i.e., the form - the second stage of limitation. This name and form - Nama and Rupa - is what is known as Omkara Pranava; and this is the seed and seat of all matter and force. The Nadha is represented by a line and the Bhindu by a disc. It is this Nadha or vibration that is known as Linga and Bhindu is what is known as its Pita. This LIngam with its Pitam or the principle of Name and Form is still beyond comprehension, and the form that could be comprehended a little better came out of the Bindhu above referred to in the order of evolution. This is what is known as Sadakkiam or Sadasivam. This is Rupa-Rupam or with shape and without shape From this Sadhasiva came out Mahesvera. With fully developed form, from him Rudra, in the region of Asuddha Maya, from him Vishnu, and from him, Brahma.

 

[ravichaudhary]

These nine different phases or Navapitam are the different stages of evolution which the great God - or properly speaking - His Sakti -, assumed in mainfesting Itself to the souls - or in fact to excite their intelligence, and evolve this Jagat or universe out of Maya. The different actions in the region of Suddha Maya are performed by Sadhasiva and Maheswara, while those in the lower Asuddha Maya by Rudra. Vishnu and Brahma - the Hindu Triad. It could thus be seen what position the Nadha and Bhindhu hold in the order of cosmic evolution. These two principles as I have already said, are known as Pranava - Nadha representing Nama, and Bhindhu representing Rupa - and it is this Pranava that is represented by Siva Lingam. Natham or the principle of egg - is represented by aline and Bhindhu, the next stage, by a disc. The line is the Linga and the disc is the Pita. We know that the principle of all writings in any language is embodied in this line and disc. Can we with any sense of correct knowledge call this Linga an emblem of generative organ? I am sorry that our critics are unable to form an idea of the creative principle except through the genital organ. You will see that in the order of evolution above out-lined, no fully developed form is manifested until the stage of Mahesvara is reached. Is it possible then to call Nadha and Bhindhu which are far above the developed form of Mahesvara as one of his organs?
Siva Linga again is said to be of three kinds - Vyaktam, Avyaktam and Vyaktavyaktam or Sakalam, Nishkalam, and Sakalanishkalam. The pure form of Sat, Chit and Anandam of Sivam is known as Avyaktam or Nishkala Lingam. The form to which name and form are particularly traceable is called Vyaktavyaktam or Sakalanishkala Lingam. It is this that is generally known as Sadakkiam or Siva Lingam. The form in which name and form are fully developed is called Vyaktam or Sakala Lingam. Under this class of Vyaktalingams fall the 25 forms of Mahesvara, such as Chandrasekara, Uma Mahesa &c. &c., These forms are fully developed and are said to embody the various limbs of a perfect form, such as head, face, hands, legs &c. It is the embodiment of all these limbs that is called Mahesvara Linga, and can we then say that the Figure embodying all these limbs represents only one of such limbs - the phallus? and can we call the Avyakta and Vyaktavyakta Lingas which have no body or shape whatever, a phallus - a fully developed form?
This Sadakkiam or Siva Lingam is again explained in the Agamas in five other forms; namely Siva Sadakkiam, Amurti Sadakkiyam, Murti Sadakkiyam, Kartiru Sadakkiyam and Karma Sadakkiam. Of these five, the Murti Sadakkiya-Linga and Kartiru-Sadakkiya-LInga exhibit in their forms fully developed faces, and they are called Muka-Linga-Murti or Linga with face. May I ask our critics whether a phallus has a face?
The Siva Linga that is generally seen in many of our temples is the form of Karmasadakkiam which embodies in it the jnana-lingam of Nadham and the Pita Lingam of Bhindu. This is what is known as Sadakkiam or the form of God in His capacity as the Agent of the five actions of Srishti, Stiti, Sankkaram, Thirobhavam and Anugraham. In other words, Siva in His capacity as the Agent of Panchakrityam is known as Linga, meaning thereby the Sculptor of the universe, as already explained and as the primordial germ of the cosmic appearance. The Agamas explain at length that this Linga embodies in it the various differentiations of the Jagat known as He, She and It, and in fact they allot different portions of this Linga for the different differentiations. This form, again, embodies in it the Hindu Triad of Brahma, Vishnu, and Rudra as well as the Vyashti forms of Pranava which is the germ of the 96 elementary principles of the Jagat known as Tatvas. We may be able to learn a good deal of the cosmic principles, and of their modes and methods of involution and evolution if we study under a competent preceptor the true meaning of Siva Linga. I would refer you to a series of very valuable and interesting articles contributed to the Madras Siddhanta Dipika in 1906 and 1907 by Mr. Rangaswamy Aiyar under the heading "The inner meaning of Siva Lingam". The sublime meaning of Siva Linga may be found expounded in Tirumantram, Linga Puranam, Siva Puranam, Vayusamhita Sutasamhita and several other Tamil works of great reputation, and the Agamas devote volumes to the excellence of Siva Linga. If one could have a glimpse of the meangings of the several rites and ceremonies performed at a Linga-Stapana, one would be able to have a correct meaning of the sacred Siva Lingam.
The Agamas again speak of seven kinds of Linga, viz;- Gopuram, Sikaram, Dvaram, Prakaram, Balipitam, Archalingam and Mulalingam. The Tower, the dome, the gateway, the courtyard round the temple, are all called LIngas as they represent Siva-Sakti one way or the other, and are therefore entitled to our veneration and worship. Are these all to be called phallic symbols, I ask? It is again one of the important doctrines of the Hindu religion that we have to perform our worship of Guru, Jangamam, and Lingam. The Lingam herein referred to is a term which includes the various images of Siva which we worship in our temples. Can we say that all these images are phallic symbols? Surely it does not require much research into the Hindu Sastras to have a general idea of the meaning of Siva Lingam, and it is not possible to conceive how the critics came to make this unfounded and blasphemous allegation againt our sacred object of worship which is replete with sound and solemn significance. It may be that a phallic emblem was considered sacred by ancient Romans or Greeks. But Hindus are neither Romans nor Greeks; and it is quite unreasonable and uncharitable to charge the Hindus with an idea for which they were in no way responsible. Evidently the ancient Romans or Greeks borrowed the Linga worship from the Hindus, and in their debased ignorance put a wrong construction on it, having misunderstood the language used by the Hindus in describing it. Are the Hindus to be taken to task on account of an idiotic mistake committed by foreign nations?
If we refer to the Puranas, we find Siva Linga being further explained. When Brahma and Vishnu, in their arrogance, fought with each other for supremacy, the Lord Paramesvara appeared in their midst in the form of a flame whose beginning or end they were unable to discover. This flame of immeasurable effulgence is called Linga. This Linga is said to represent the sacred fire of the Vedic Yajnas, while the temples stand for the sacrificial grounds. These temples again represent our hearts or Hridaya, and our Lord is said to abide in our hearts in the form of a Linga or a glow of effulgence, as the soul of our souls. Surely none of these significances of Siva Linga has any reference to phallic emblem, and I challenge our critics to quote a single verse in any of our Sastras in support of their unfounded allegation.
I think I have said enough to convince you that the charge laid against our sacred object of worship is as unfounded as it is blasphemous. If you have a desire to be more fully informed of Siva Linga you will do well to make a study of it under a competent Guru, and you will then be able to see how the incomprehensible and indescribable Sivam assumed this Linga form in order to make Himself known to us, and how this Linga form comprises in itself, in a very subtle manner, the most primordial germ of the whole Jagat -- in short how the unlimited Sivam started a limitation to benefit the innumerable souls. I hope, and I pray that you will all be benefitted by this. Maha Linga Siva Rupam.

[ end of article]

 

[sunillathwal]

Fully agree with you. This amounts to preach promiscuity and spread superstition. Young girls are beguiled into believing that they will get as handsome and virile a husband as Lord Shiva if they worship "phallus" ( शिव लिंग). Ironically, this superstitious tradition is being practiced by many young and educated girls also who do not take pains to find any scientific reasoning behind this.

Many linguistics believe that "लिंग" (or Lingam) is NOT a phallic symbol... Apparently, lingam means pillar or Satambh (and not in slang form). There are many theories behind that origin of worshiping the Shiva-Lingam.


An obvious question to the Shiva Ling-theory is: Why do men worship Shiva-Lingam? Do they aspire to be gay?


Update: Did not see Ravi ji's posts while posting in this thread (bad timing).

 

[annch]

Prabably they aspire to become that a woman is praying for......

An obvious question to the Shiva Ling-theory is: Why do men worship Shiva-Lingam? Do they aspire to be gay?


Update: Did not see Ravi ji's posts while posting in this thread (bad timing).

 

[singhvp]

Many linguistics believe that "लिंग" (or Lingam) is NOT a phallic symbol... Apparently, lingam means pillar or Satambh (and not in slang form). There are many theories behind that origin of worshiping the Shiva-Lingam.


An obvious question to the Shiva Ling-theory is: Why do men worship Shiva-Lingam? Do they aspire to be gay?


Update: Did not see Ravi ji's posts while posting in this thread (bad timing).

You dismissed my theory, fair enough. Now, I have a question as a student. What is the basic purpose/origin of this ritual, the logic behind this 'pillar' worship and its benefits? I would out-rightly reject the Hindu mythology written by idle Brahmins. Please base your analysis on scientific reasoning supported by visible and tangible evidences and the applicability of the benefits of this tradition in contemporary world.

 

[annch]

Vishal ji,

Agree with you to a certain point. First and foremost, it is your attitude that allows you to respect people in general and accept the differences/ deviants, before you weigh the evidences. Right?

Regards

Anjoo ji, I liked your comment as it touches upon a very fundamental aspect which we have not discussed thus far. Process of evolving attitudes, internal struggle to overcome dogma and adopt progressive views.

I will relate my journey to you with the view that this may be useful to other who are undergoing similar process. I came from middle class rural and semi-urban background of hinterland in Haryana. My social attitudes were no different from atypical people from similar background. My views gradually evolved with time, exposer, contemplation, investigating the evidence based facts, interacting with people I was biased against, confronting the strongly held dogmatic views within myself, etc.


No, it was not easy, it was scary at first, it pulled me out of my intellectual comfort zone. Some of the things I confronted, struck right at the core of my identity e.g. Jat, Indian, false sense of pride I had been thriving on, biases against others, etc. When that happens, we become more defensive and shut ourselves down. There was a stage, I will simply cling on to my viewpoint or belief, despite knowing that they were not right, purely because it was hard to let go. It took time and more courage to slowly overcome and evolve into more accepting and tolerant.

It was a combination of evidence based awareness and progressively becoming more tolerant due to exposer/interaction. It happened because I was prepared to confront and accept the evidence.


In relation to this specific topic (GLBT), it is primarily based on scientific evidence (after reviewing genetic, social and economical studies on GLBT) as well as increased tolerance towards things. This also had impact on me in other areas e.g. becoming tolerant about others doing things I myself might not be comfortable doing e.g. Same Gotra, as of now I am not comfortable doing it myself but I will be tolerant to others even if this happens in my family.

 

[virj]

Though this shouldnt be dragged here in this funny way(at least by us) still here is what I think it is. I have mentioned earlier that hinduism is very vast and rich civilisation. The definition of hinduism isnt what you hear from your 'civilised' friends. Now how come such rich civilisation worship a thing like "shiv-ling'? Fair enough! But to understand the answer you need to get out of your prejudices build by false propagandas by others. Our religion. in fact all religions( actually we should say civilisation or way of life) were attacked by Islamic and Chritianity either through force or through false propagandas. Only this great civilisation has survived, rest perished. In christianity 'sex' was a crime commited by Adam & Even. For them no woman was greater then "virgin" Marry. And they think virgin Mary was 'without sin'. For us 'sex' was an act of reproduction, an act with give life, it wasnt a sin as clear in various pictures, references. We worship, GOD in different forms and each form has a meaning. Shiv ling with Y represent life, synergy. Its not always about sex, sometime its about giving life and this also stands as a symbol of that. This is a symbolic reference as to the creator and has much deep and wider meaning. The article provided by Ravi can also help understanding this.

Our ancestors were not that fool, I believe. Similar references can be seen in another great civilisation(Chinease).

 

[rinkusheoran]

A. Dogma and biased opinion vs hard but liberating facts
No they are not acquired tendencies. Long ago, I use to think the same way until I made the effort to make myself aware based on scientific facts - it was a slow process. Just like there is diff between 'academic education' and 'awareness (of issues)', same way there is diff between '(dogma and biased) opinion' and ' facts (that may challenge our long held incorrect views)' .

B. Gayism is not by environment, scientific proof that it is in the genes you pass on to your kids
Review the national geography video again. There is ample scientific evidence that its in gene and its natural. Some societies consider it wrong. Hinduism, for most part of its history of 3K to 5K years (except last 200yrs) has excepted and celebrated gayism - immortalized in temple carving and prayed them. Parents might not be gay (or have been hiding or suppressing) but they may pass their 'dormant' gay genes to kids - its not my opinion, its a verifiable scientific fact.

C. Impact of Environment/Society on Gays and Anti-Gays
Gayism is not acquired, what is acquired is 'dogmatic' view against gays or courage to accept or support them. This acquired attitude towards them (anti or support) comes from people's environment, their willingness see beyond obvious, question validity of things (not for the sake of rebellion or jhoota moderanization) that have been ingrained in us from childhood. That requires certain level of maturity and courage. Good thing is this courage and maturity can be 'acquired', only if we are open to it.

D. What next? Where are We headed?
What next?,
Cave man left their cave and moved into villages.
From villages they moved into urban India.
Then some urban jats moved to more liberal western countries overseas.
Some human even went to the moon?

What next?
.
.
Shall we go back to the cave?
.
.
How about a cave on the moon?
Afterall many of us want the physical progress science has to offer but we are yet to come out of 'intellectual' caveman attitudes.

Are you an intellectual caveman?
or
Are you a JAT, brave and veer, who steps out in da open and says, "throw the facts at me, and I shall decide based on verifiable fact, no matter how hard initially it may be to accept this and overcome my long held biases"?

Mr and Ms JATs - who are you?
Are you a jat? a jat in name or a jat in practice?
A jat living da dogma or doggedly determined to pursue da truth regardless of how harsh and disturbing it may be.

Thanks for reading my views.

Raam raam to all the 'Alsi' Jats with intellectual courage.

If you calls this as the liberalization then me more than happy to be dogmatic and biased. I have noticed this thing in your post someone not having same opinion and same thinking level then it is dogmatic and biased opinion this is the way you think?? What is proof that the studies that you have read are final or absolutely correct , may be they were done by the people who were bisexual, what is the authenticity those report?? india mein to baba ramdev bolta hai ki main inn gay/lesbian ko thik kar sakta hun dave k sath if you have any take him to him.
This is something that is not natural and people who support it are making all effort to prove that it is natural.

in foreign its very much common that girls get pregnant( that too at the age of 14-18) and have kids before marriage, that is also very much normal, will you allow your kids something like that?

I really appreciate your liberalization, you have compared the man coming out from caves to accepting gayism/lesbianism..great.

I dont have any issues in accepting the people but i simple dont like there sexual orientation that is all.

Let me ask a question to you, why you joined JATLAND when you have other site awhere you will find lot many people discussing the same things?

 

[vicky84]

india mein to baba ramdev bolta hai ki main inn gay/lesbian ko thik kar sakta hun dave k sath if you have any take him to him.

hahahahahaha..Bhai Ramdev ki main himmat maanoon hoon..Yu baba Ramdev ke ke thik karega .. Kaade yo nyu keh hai ke main corruption door kar doonga, pher nyu keh hai ke main national party chalaoonga. Angrezzi system ko hata ke apna system lagaoonga, saari bimari door kar doonga loggan ki...itne kaam kyukar karega .. Jai ho baba Ramdev ki

 

[singhvp]

@Vipin: Vipin what does "shiv ling" symbolizes? Is it some body part of Shiv or something else? If it symbolizes a body part then what is the point in worshiping it. Isn't it better to worship the entire statue of the deity instead of just one body part, if beneficial at all.

 

[virj]

VP ji, Didn't I briefly mention in earlier post what it symbolize. I know you will always see it as a body part and attach it to sex Its not your fault. If you really want to understand, I recommend you read full reference in our ancient text but with an open mind. Hope you would get better idea and bigger picture and as Ravi mentioned the article provided above and this diagram could be a good start.

 

[vicky84]

You dismissed my theory, fair enough. Now, I have a question as a student. What is the basic purpose/origin of this ritual, the logic behind this 'pillar' worship and its benefits? I would out-rightly reject the Hindu mythology written by idle Brahmins. Please base your analysis on scientific reasoning supported by visible and tangible evidences and the applicability of the benefits of this tradition in contemporary world.

VP Sir,

If the article posted by Shri Ravi Chaudhary ji is authentic then its quite clear that it Linga does not mean a genital organ. I think its misunderstood by people. As we see lot of examples in our daily lives where people with different dialect come up with their own meaning without understanding the real meaning.

Linga is derived from the Sanskrit root Lika which means to sculpture or to paint, and Linga means one that sculptures or paints. God being the Sculptor of the Universe, He is known as Linga, and this word has become ultimately to mean any form or symbol that represents Him. It has become in a later stage to mean any sign or symbol, in a general sense, and it is in this sense the word is used now. Refer to any Dictionary - Sanskrit or Tamil -, and you will find the meaning of the word as a symbol or mark - a சின்னம், a குறி.

 

[singhvp]

VP Sir,

If the article posted by Shri Ravi Chaudhary ji is authentic then its quite clear that it Linga does not mean a genital organ. I think its misunderstood by people. As we see lot of examples in our daily lives where people with different dialect come up with their own meaning without understanding the real meaning.

Linga is derived from the Sanskrit root Lika which means to sculpture or to paint, and Linga means one that sculptures or paints. God being the Sculptor of the Universe, He is known as Linga, and this word has become ultimately to mean any form or symbol that represents Him. It has become in a later stage to mean any sign or symbol, in a general sense, and it is in this sense the word is used now. Refer to any Dictionary - Sanskrit or Tamil -, and you will find the meaning of the word as a symbol or mark - a சின்னம், a குறி.

To avoid any confusion, this sculpture could have been given another shape like, square, round, rectangular or the shape of an object/creature. It seems to be purposefully, sculptured by Brahmins to make it resemble Shiva's body part to attract more and more lady worshippers. This new definition seems to be an afterthought. These Tamilians are conservatives of the first order. They are still living in 13th century.