Army chief Gen. VK Singh DOB dispute

VP Ji, relax! I didn't pass any comment. I just wondered what is happening and started this thread so intellectuals like you can throw some light on it. Whenever I felt like starting a thread on any subject, I did but won't do it on what you like. :) You can start a thread on whatever you like but please think about the dispute between govt. and the COAS not about what is congress, what is BJP, who is Jat, who is Rajput.


vpsingh said:
You didn't notice the caste colour in those posts where a particular community "Punjabi" was specifically singled out in this context. How is it going to affect the army as a whole. He is going to be replaced by another army man and not by any civilian. Moreover, it is an internal issue and MOD must be having their own procedure of making such appointments. Why are you so furious on this issue. You never brought any issue of the common army men like a Sepoy, Havaldar or low ranking officials who face the similar problems. It is a common knowledge that the senior ranking officers in military or elsewhere misuse the manpower for their personal ends. For example, in military where a soldier who is meant to defend the borders is deployed as orderly at their residences. Those poor guys have to work as a servant and have to attend to those works which they are, officially, not supposed to do. You seem to be very sympathetic about the Generals, but your heart never beats for those lesser mortals. Anyway, it is my right to express my views. If you don't like simply ignore.
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ravinderjeet said:
भारती जी मेरी आँखों में पानी आ गया | आपने इतने जिवंत तरीके से बखान किया हे फोजिओं के जीवन संघर्ष का | में फोजी तो नहीं पर फौज के साथ काम किया हे २५ साल तक | हमारे रिश्तेदार और चाचा ताऊ जब वापिस आते थे और इस्सी तरह की कहानियाँ सुनाते थे तो रोमांच से रोंगटे खड़े हो जाते थे | वि,पि, जी की बात छोड़ दो वे तो पैदा ही जिन्दगी के मजे लेने के लिए हुए हैं | त्याग तो दूसरों को करना हे | और जो दूसरों के दम पर जीते हैं वे ही इस देश के तानाशाह हैं |
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रविंदरजीत, भाई एक तो मै आपकी व्यक्तिगत टिप्पणियाँ कै कती बोझ मरग्या I नीचे लिखे दो चार पॉइंट पर ध्यान दे लिए माड़ा सा I

१. फौजी भाइयों की पाछे सी कांग्रेस आल्ल्याँ नै तनखाह आछी कर दी थी, आर वैसे भी ध्यान ठीक राखै सै I
२. जरनेल साहब के कुछ महीने पहले retire होने से फ़ौज के मनोबल पर कोई असर नहीं पड़ेगा और न ही फौजियों के हित प्रभावित होंगे I
३. रामफल होल्दार, सुब्बे लैंस नायक, फत्ते सिपाही, दरिया सिंह सूबेदार और दूसरे म्हारे जितने फौजी भाई निचले तबके के हैं उनके भी भोत केस होते हैं इसे इसे, मगर उनकी तरफ किसी का ध्यान नहीं जाता I
४. ये सारे बड्डे बड्डे फौजी अफसर, म्हारे छोटे फौजी भाईयां तैं अपने घरां पै अर्दली का कम भोत करवावें सें आर छुट्टी देण मै भी पंगा कर देवें सें, यो मुद्दा कदे नहीं उठाया आपने I कुत्तों की देखभाल से लेकर, झाड़ू पोचा, Bridge पार्टियों में मेम साहबों के लिए Gin -Tonic सर्व करने और बर्तन भांडे मांजने तक का काम हमारे फौजियों से करवाया जाता है इनके घरों पर I ऊपर से डांट डपट I उस पर आपका दिल कभी नहीं पसीजता I जरनेल साहब पर आपको बड़ी दया आ रही है I
५. वैसे भी जरनेल साहब, बड्डे अफसर सें, हमने चिंता करण की जमा जरूरत कोन्या I
6. मामला कचेड़ी मै चालल्या गया, इब वकीलां नै आपणा काम करण द्यो I
 
jakhar77 said:
VP Ji, relax! I didn't pass any comment. I just wondered what is happening and started this thread so intellectuals like you can throw some light on it. Whenever I felt like starting a thread on any subject, I did but won't do it on what you like. :) You can start a thread on whatever you like but please think about the dispute between govt. and the COAS not about what is congress, what is BJP, who is Jat, who is Rajput.
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Sita Ram Bhai, I am always a very relaxed person. But, sometimes prejudicial behaviour temporarily irks me. I was not the one who gave it a caste twist. Anyway, let us not drag it further.

I have already thrown plenty of right on the thread. Now the battery needs to be recharged.
 
राजपाल जी पहले 8वि भी बोर्ड से होया करे थी और मैंने सुना स के जर्नल साहब की जन्मतीथि 8वि में 1950 दर्ज स अर्र 10वि में 1951 | रही आपके कांग्रेस की खिलाफत वाली बात तो आप्ते या किसने बताई के जर्नल साहब कांग्रेस के खिलाफ स के बेरा भिवानी में इनका परिवार कांग्रेस का समर्थक हो तो ?
जर्नल साहब को भाजपा सरकार में हुए ताबूत घोटाले की और तफ्तीश करानी चाहिए थी या कमी छोड़ दी :)
पार्टी सारी बराबर स क्यों इन चोरो की तरफदारी करा करो ..
 
vpsingh said:
रविंदरजीत, भाई एक तो मै आपकी व्यक्तिगत टिप्पणियाँ कै कती बोझ मरग्या I नीचे लिखे दो चार पॉइंट पर ध्यान दे लिए माड़ा सा I

I
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वि.पि. जी आप तर्क -वितर्क नहीं करते ,कुतर्क करते हैं |
 
I think at the time of joining NDA, he was minor.

vpsingh said:
At the time of joining the service, Gen Singh was not minor. There was enough time to have the record rectified. Why this Kolavery now at the fag end of his carrier? Moreover, even if something positive comes out of this imbroglio, what is for us to rejoice as a community. In the past, I have heard people castigating even the Rajputs. How come, this sudden sympathy to them. Is it a change of heart, or is it just another alibi to condemn the establishment.
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ravinderjeet said:
वि.पि. जी आप तर्क -वितर्क नहीं करते ,कुतर्क करते हैं |
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आछा ठीक सै भाई, रविंदरजीत. मेरे ख्याल मै हम एक समझौता सा कर सकते हैं I आप एक हफ्ता, मेरी हर पोस्ट यानि कुतर्क को ignore कर सकते हैं I अब चूंकि मुझे आपकी पोस्ट से कोई allergy नहीं है, इसलिए मैं अपना option खुला रख लेता हूँ I मार दस्तक फटा फट इकरार नामे पै I तब तक जैराम जी की I खुश रह्या कर छोटे भाई I
 
मैंने इसा लागे स के इस जर्नल त पहल्या jl के मेम्बरा का रोल्ला जागा कोर्ट में ;)
 
Alright folks! We have had enough of warnings, fights, Rajputs, Punhabis, BJP, Congress, Rahul Ghandi etc etc. Let's come back to the topic.

Let's see the facts or perceived facts by many of the matter which are in public domain.

1. Gen. VK Singh's 10th board certificate says his date of birth is May 10, 1951. If I remember correctly, the supreme court has said in one of it's ruling that in any kind of dispute arises, matric/secondary certificate date of birth will be considered true.
2. It's also in public domain that Gen. VK Singh accepted his DOB as May 10, 1950 when he was promoted previously so he should accept the same for his retirement. Specialists are saying that he accepted this under pressure and if hadn't done that, he wouldn't have been promoted. It is also said that this was verbal promise and was not in written.
3. It is said the soldiers take orders and never question them, here, there is nothing like that. The govt. has not ordered Gen. Singh to go but it is being done by the facts which the govt. thinks are true.
4. There has been a lot of discussion on this issue and most of the retd. army personnel have supported Gen. Singh and beurocrats have backed the defense ministry.


Questions are:

1. What if the supreme court rules in favor of Gen. Singh? What would be the govts' next course of action?
2. What if Gen. Singh loses in the supreme court?
3. Is this dispute going affect the Indian armed forces morale?
4. Why the govt. wants to remove Gen. Singh when it itself promoted him to the positions of COAS?
5. How this episode going to affect army-beuracracy relations?

Please bring more material on this issue to make things clearer for ourselves and readers.
 
4 ex Chief Justices including Justice Verma, who is known for his unquestionable integrity, have thrown their weight behind General V K Singh. Does this indicate anything larger?????
 
One strong conspiracy theory goes like this. General Kapoor when learnt of this dispute regarding age of his successor, took it on himself to decide the chain of succession thereon. Long time ago, General VK Singh after passing out from IMA had written to MS (Military Secretary) Branch that his DOB has been erroneously reflected as 1950 instead of 1951 in his passing out records of IMA. He produced his Matric certificate to support his argument. The matter was unwittingly forgotten after it was referred to another branch, which is the record repository for all officers of Army. It remained a trivial matter to both the initiator and provider until the former rose to the rank of brigadier and Major General. To the bad luck of himself, General VK raised it again with MS branch. This is the point where vested interest instead of helping a genuine concern twisted the facts to have their own way in the chain of succession of Army Chiefs after Gen VK. The then MS ( Lt Gen Avdesh) raised the matter subtly and had everything recorded upto Def Secy with sinister design of chain of succession. Some say that MS branch has no say in such matter as record keeping branch of the Indian Army has sole prerogative over such matters, which makes the argument for the conspiracy theory strong. Now, when Gen VK was to take over, the file was specifically shown to him that whether he approves his DOB as mentioned by MS branch file. He probably faltered here and didnt put his foot down. He accepted the recommendations of the file and became Chief. Rest as we know has been amply out in papers and elsewhere.
 
vpsingh said:
Our emotional comfort derived from criticizing the establishment on this matter is just founded on the neurologically highly implausible premise. We have to be tolerant, pragmatic and unprejudiced in such matters and must allow the judicial system to take its course.
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Yeah, If only the judicial system works impartially or in good faith.
There is big drama that goes on there as well. Even for presenting your case, in order to be just heard by the Judge, you need a reputed lawyer who comes at an astonishing cost. I have seen Judges shutting-up new or lawyers not of repute in media. The perception game, the media power, the connections, and money power all play their role there as well. All this because a fake government passed laws which brought promotion of Judges under recommendation of politicians.

I agree that there are real Judges who have strong internal power of knowledge, reasoning and integrity that leaves no room for influence from outside powers. However, these are rare species and the system takes care that they do not preside upon cases important to it.
 
when he got commissioned has no relevance, It is materia when he came to know about it. In all circumstances his school certificate and birth certificate are sufficient to prove his case. He accepted the year 1950 as DOB under pressure of promotion and such a consent, which is obtained under pressure, has no values in the eyes of law and hence void.

vpsingh said:
You are right, but by the time he got commission, he was a major/adult
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Ravinderjeet is doing a good job in responding. Whatever you do please don't twist things out of context. Nobody is talking or inferring about stealing "Kursi or Gaddi" it is about a principled agreement. Gov't and this fu'ked up nation wants to hold their military at highest possible ethical standard, asking them to lay down their lives for millions of scum bags who don't even deserve to live or breath extra second of their miserable life and the same people and their elected representatives are trying to humiliate a COAS, don't they know the severity of this situation. What charan singh did or devi lal did has nothing to do with the current situation. We are talking about a disciplined honorable man than comparing him to politicians. Your argument lost validity the moment you brought caste, creed, and some other hue to this discussion
vpsingh said:
[

फिर हक़ छीन ल्यो, कौन रोक रह्या सै I पर भाई साहब, न्यू बताइयो पाछले 60 सालां मैं कै बार दिल्ली की गद्दी छीनी सै I सिर्फ एक बार 6 महीने के लिए चौधरी चरण सिंह जी accidentally प्रधान मंत्री बने थे वो भी अंतरिम I थोड़े से दिन चौधरी देवी लाल उप प्रधान मंत्री रहे थे I इसके इलावा बता दियो कौनसे से तीर मार लिए थे हमने आर आप नै I ऊँ घरां बैठ के सूक्की धौंस मारण मै के पिस्से लागैं सें I प्रजातंत्र में झोटे आला जोर हमेशां ना चाल्या करदा I थोड़ी हलीमी भी जरूरी हो सै I
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Jakhar77

I will try to answer your question to the best I can.........

1. What if the supreme court rules in favor of Gen. Singh? What would be the govts' next course of action?
--->Gov't can appeal to Apex court if it loses there, they can breed chaos blame it on MMS, get rid of him. Let Gen VK Singh continue. Alot Generals of rank Lt. Gen will resign. Gen Bikram Singh will go to court to block any implementation of extension of Gen VK Singh. This Ch**iya Govt does not know what kind of crisis it will unleash after this fiasco.
2. Is this dispute going affect the Indian armed forces morale?
---> Too late to think about Morale now......its already done. It will be a Herculean task to repair the damage one thing is for sure it will never be the same. Wall of suspicion has been erected, trust has been broken. All because of two men one is god forsaken Lungi Dhaari Antony and second is **** for Brains wrapped in Toilet Paper--Manmohan Singh. There is time to stand up and be counted as leader they both have failed.
2. Why the govt. wants to remove Gen. Singh when it itself promoted him to the positions of COAS?
---> First is called Strategy. Gen VK Singh was after cleaning out the corruption rut in Army, if you all remember at one time there were Army Corruption Scandals coming out every day. Seems like he ruffled few feathers of some very well connected corrupt people and they want him out first by promoting him and secondly by denying him full tenure under the guise of DOB controversy. They thought he will just buckle under false pretenses of "Desh Bhakti" "Tradition" "Fauji Bhai" civilian authority is supreme, lure him with Governor's post or foreign Ambassador's post they didn't count on the fact that he will fight back. 2nd is Rumor has it, Lt. Gen Bikram Singh is related to Manmohan Singh. It hasn't been clearly established now-- but the rumor is doing rounds--if it is true then India is the worst f**king nation on the face of this planet-I have more respect for Pakistan and china
3. What if Gen. Singh loses in the supreme court?
----> He will accept it as fait accompli. Most likely he will be fired from his post for disobeying civilian authority. No Pension, No Retirement benefits.
4. Army-Bureaucracy relationship is done after this episode. Army won't trust MOD babus and vice versa.
 
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vikasgulia said:
Our very own 'Chief Investigator ;)' Mr Arnab Giswami has mentioned 19 documents which say DOB as 1951. Besides, he was born in a millitary hospital and his DOB was registered as 1951, that means, (as the govt would like to believe), the hospital staff mistook the year 1950 as 1951 :triumphant:.

http://www.timesnow.tv/Debate-Army-Chief-vs-Govt-1/videoshow/4393841.cms
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Nice debate Vikash! Makes it very clear that the Army Chief has a strong case! What I don't understand is that why they should have on panel some body like Tehseen Poonawal. Political analyst , my foot! Gen. Bakshi has indirectly explained how and why Gen. V.K Singh has accepted the year 1950 as the year of his birth!
Thanks for sharing the link!
 
karan said:
Ravinderjeet is doing a good job in responding. Whatever you do please don't twist things out of context. Nobody is talking or inferring about stealing "Kursi or Gaddi" it is about a principled agreement. Gov't and this fu'ked up nation wants to hold their military at highest possible ethical standard, asking them to lay down their lives for millions of scum bags who don't even deserve to live or breath extra second of their miserable life and the same people and their elected representatives are trying to humiliate a COAS, don't they know the severity of this situation. What charan singh did or devi lal did has nothing to do with the current situation. We are talking about a disciplined honorable man than comparing him to politicians. Your argument lost validity the moment you brought caste, creed, and some other hue to this discussion
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And you think you are making a valid argument? I can see logic oozing through the underlined above. With such contempt against India and Indians, I wonder why you even care about this debate?

The military exists for the nation. The nation doesn't exist for the military. The military deserves the nation's respect. But the nation doesn't deserve its military's contempt.

I don't see anything principled about any of your rhetoric. The principle ought to be that no honourable man should be humiliated, whether it is COAS or a jawan or a humble farmer or a mochi. I refuse to accept the elitism that just because someone is Chief of Army, his honour is above everything else.

It is important that General Singh is not being harassed by a vengeful govt.- some people have made that point and it is perfectly valid. The only way that can be settled in a lawful way is in the courts now. Otherwise clueless public is just going to be subject to claims and counterclaims from both sides, and choose a side based on their existing prejudices.

What's the severity of the situation you are talking about? A COAS embroiled with his government on his date of birth. Bah! I bet 90% of army doesn't care about it. I mean seriously. The jawan sitting in Siachen- he is more worried about frostbite and more interested in getting the best equipment to deal with the environment rather than who is going to be 20 chains up from him in hierarchy 6 months from now. The severity of the situation exists in the number of vacant spaces for officers, the stone-age equipment of the army, the lack of any strategic thinking. Rather than one man's fight for personal honour. I hope truth prevails on this matter, but I am also sure that this is not going to be an issue in 2013. While officer shortage, poor equipment, etc. are all going to be there in 2013.
 
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