Those guilty of "Within Gotra" marriage should be ostrasized by JAT's... Yes or No ?

[virj]

Here is something I found via a quick search.

There's nothing wrong with cousins getting married, scientists say.

​

Please bear in mind I do not support cousin marriages.

I am not that smart to figure out myself, was just wondering if science see nothing wrong in cousin marriage why dont you support it as your all other arguments are based on science findings?

 

[swaich]

I am not that smart to figure out myself, was just wondering if science see nothing wrong in cousin marriage why dont you support it as your all other arguments are based on science findings?

Good question. Yes, genetically it may not be too risky to marry your cousin, but the prime reason that stops one from marrying your cousin is the fact that we are brought up as brothers and sisters. So its the upbringing that decides what kind of feelings I have for my cousin. In some south Indian communities and Muslims cousins aren't brought up as siblings, so naturally its rather easy for them to marry if the questions arises. In our case, as with most North Indian communities cousins are treated as siblings, so a question of marrying your cousin does not arise and hence I do not support it. I remember reading about a research in Israel that kids growing up together in a Kibbutz (Israeli community set up based on socialist ideologies, very few left now) treat each other as brothers and sisters even though they are not specifically taught to do that. Only a very few % of the kids in Kibbutz ended up having amorous feelings for each other. So upbringing and family set up decides a lot of things.

But I understand that your real line of argument was "Why is this guy opposing same gotra when he dislikes cousin marriage?". I hope you got your answer.

 

[swaich]

Super Super Super Super Awesome -------------------

my logic was quite emotional- but urs awesome sir g-

ever since i have finished that SMJ episode- I was thinking so low of being Jat

how cruel- we can be-how cold blooded we are - heart less

humari zaban toh akahd hai hi- humare vichar bhi

just because of urs posts sir g-

i m a little relaxed - not every Jat is same

agar is community mei - Mei hoon-

toh mere jaise aur bhi honge-

saying thnx- won't be enough- in expressing my gratitude -

but thats all i have got

Regards,

Rekha ji, diversity of opinion is a necessary ingredient for the growth of any community. If have an opinion which is different from the majority, we should express it along with factors that influenced us to think along those lines.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

I think Sunil's post above did logically bust that argument, did it not? Same gotra marriage with no known direct relation would not necessarily lead to any dilution of the gene pool or risk to the next generation. If anything, there are are far bigger factors like access to health and medical services that will create a bigger role in determining the state of the next generation.

Here is something I found via a quick search.

There's nothing wrong with cousins getting married, scientists say.
. .....​

​

Kindly permit me to reproduce below for the readers to enable them to draw their own conclusion [Of course without comment, because it is self explanatory] what the study referred to above in the link given contains :

The risk of giving birth to babies with genetic defects as a result of marriages between first cousins is no greater than that run by women over 40 who become pregnant, according to two scientists who call for the taboo on first-cousin families to be lifted.
Women in their forties are not made to feel guilty about having babies and the same should apply to cousins who want to marry, said Professor Diane Paul of the University of Massachusetts in Boston and Professor Hamish Spencer of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand. Although first-cousin marriages are legal in Britain, there have been calls to ban the practice because of reports that it has resulted in a higher-than-average incidence of birth defects in certain immigrant communities where it is common and culturally acceptable.
However, Professors Paul and Spencer said that the risk of congenital defects is about 2 per cent higher than average for babies born to first-cousin marriages – with the infant mortality about 4.4 per cent higher – which is on a par with the risk to babies born to women over 40. "Women over the age of 40 have a similar risk of having children with birth defects and no one is suggesting they should be prevented from reproducing," said Professor Spencer, whose co-authored study is published in the online journal Public Library of Science........''
​

 

[virj]

Good question. Yes, genetically it may not be too risky to marry your cousin, but the prime reason that stops one from marrying your cousin is the fact that we are brought up as brothers and sisters. So its the upbringing that decides what kind of feelings I have for my cousin. In some south Indian communities and Muslims cousins aren't brought up as siblings, so naturally its rather easy for them to marry if the questions arises. In our case, as with most North Indian communities cousins are treated as siblings, so a question of marrying your cousin does not arise and hence I do not support it. I remember reading about a research in Israel that kids growing up together in a Kibbutz (Israeli community set up based on socialist ideologies, very few left now) treat each other as brothers and sisters even though they are not specifically taught to do that. Only a very few % of the kids in Kibbutz ended up having amorous feelings for each other. So upbringing and family set up decides a lot of things.

But I understand that your real line of argument was "Why is this guy opposing same gotra when he dislikes cousin marriage?". I hope you got your answer.

So when people have explained you above that in us Jats we consider people from same Got as Goti bhai why dont u understand and stop your scientific arguments. You are just talking like an ignorant kid who has read some books but have no idea about ground realities. Thats why i said above bookish knowledge alone is dangerous thing. If you cant marry you cousins why you asking us to do? DO you have any knowledge about about setup? People from same Got are from same parental lineage.

 

[swaich]

So when people have explained you above that in us Jats we consider people from same Got as Goti bhai why dont u understand and stop your scientific arguments. You are just talking like an ignorant kid who has read some books but have no idea about ground realities. Thats why i said above bookish knowledge alone is dangerous thing. If you cant marry you cousins why you asking us to do? DO you have any knowledge about about setup? People from same Got are from same parental lineage.

I understand what you mean as Goti bhai. But saying there are feelings involved and then saying there are genetic reasons for avoiding same gotra marriages are two different things, are they not. Scientific and genetic research says marrying within the gotra would not lead to health hazards debunking the 'genetic reasons'.

I am a Jat (though we spell it as Jatt) so I think I do have a good understanding of what you mean by "set-up". In your case I see an unwillingness to see the fallacy in your so called set-up. And regarding the bold, how far back do you want to go to track parental lineage? Lets assume you marry a Benipal, thinking its safe since you are a Deswal (assuming), but what if 10 generations back a Deswal of your family had already married a Benipal of the same family? Arent you two of the same parental lineage now? So the point is - there really is no way to find out similarity in parental lineage beyond a few generations, unless you do a DNA test. So how can you say there is similarity in parental lineage?

 

[swaich]

[/LEFT]
[/SIZE]
Kindly permit me to reproduce below for the readers to enable them to draw their own conclusion [Of course without comment, because it is self explanatory] what the study referred to above in the link given contains :

The risk of giving birth to babies with genetic defects as a result of marriages between first cousins is no greater than that run by women over 40 who become pregnant, according to two scientists who call for the taboo on first-cousin families to be lifted.
Women in their forties are not made to feel guilty about having babies and the same should apply to cousins who want to marry, said Professor Diane Paul of the University of Massachusetts in Boston and Professor Hamish Spencer of the University of Otago in Dunedin, New Zealand. Although first-cousin marriages are legal in Britain, there have been calls to ban the practice because of reports that it has resulted in a higher-than-average incidence of birth defects in certain immigrant communities where it is common and culturally acceptable.
However, Professors Paul and Spencer said that the risk of congenital defects is about 2 per cent higher than average for babies born to first-cousin marriages – with the infant mortality about 4.4 per cent higher – which is on a par with the risk to babies born to women over 40. "Women over the age of 40 have a similar risk of having children with birth defects and no one is suggesting they should be prevented from reproducing," said Professor Spencer, whose co-authored study is published in the online journal Public Library of Science........''
​

Thanks for the extra effort. But that is exactly why I posted the link in the first place instead of just saying I found a source.

 

[virj]

I havent said anything about science as I am not qualified to do so nor do I think its absolute. you have again showed your ignorance about our set up. when you meet a girl from your got or your mother got we call her sister and also give her some token money. Now ur argument for not marrying your cousin is that you think she is your sister due to your upbringing but a south indian may not agree to this who has the custom of marrying neice or cousin. when i tell you we are brought up this way and our set up is lik this you start some other argument. knowing the realities help sometime. anyway u wont believe what u dont want to

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Thanks for the extra effort. But that is exactly why I posted the link in the first place instead of just saying I found a source.

Read the link again, Friend and you will find the true implication of the recommendations of the doctors duo. But the argument of the doctors points to risk comparison between first cousin marriages and ladies who conceive after the age of 40. Even then, risk is slightly greater in the case of the former kind of marriages. What does this mean? They are dangerous, though a bit degree more. Moreover the age of the first cousins has not been specified. Hence hesitant and doubtful conclusions may be avoided!!!
Thanks.

 

[swaich]

Read the link again, Friend and you will find the true implication of the recommendations of the doctors duo. But the argument of the doctors points to risk comparison between first cousin marriages and ladies who conceive after the age of 40. Even then, risk is slightly greater in the case of the former kind of marriages. What does this mean? They are dangerous, though a bit degree more. Moreover the age of the first cousins has not been specified. Hence hesitant and doubtful conclusions may be avoided!!!
Thanks.

It says a risk of 2.2% higher, if you marry your first cousin. That is not conclusive enough to be classified as "great risk". What that essentially means is that only about 12 out of 100 first cousin couples would have unhealthy kids, as compared to 10 out of 100 for couples who are not cousins. Now extrapolating this to same gotra marriages (distant, distant, distant cousins according to traditional thinking), do you think there would be any significant difference between gotra and non gotra marriages?

 

[sunillathwal]

So when people have explained you above that in us Jats we consider people from same Got as Goti bhai why dont u understand and stop your scientific arguments. You are just talking like an ignorant kid who has read some books but have no idea about ground realities. Thats why i said above bookish knowledge alone is dangerous thing. If you cant marry you cousins why you asking us to do? DO you have any knowledge about about setup?

This is ridiculous, Vipin. Why are you asking him to stop using scientific arguments? He did NOT start it; he just provided an counter-argument to many learned gentlemen who are using so-called 'scientific logic' to oppose same-gotra marriage on this thread! Obviously these gentlemen either don't understand the theory in proper context or just being deliberately ignorant. Why can't the opponents of 'same-gotra marriage' simply say that there is widely prevalent tradition of kinship within the gotra in all castes and hence it is wrong? Why bring out the scientific theories to support your arguments which are invalid to start with?
And if some guy pointed out the flaws in your(!) theory, you label him ignorant; how rich!

I, too, don't believe in same-gotra marriage and to be honest If someone from my village marry (or fled) with another fellow villager, I won't have any respect for such couple. But I won't hide this behind any false scientific logic. Whether 'same-gotra' marriages are scientifically wrong or right is IRRELEVANT. It is simply how I have been brought up, the percolation of traditional values and social norms. While social norms (and ills) do change with time, I don't think that not marrying in same the got is anything regressive or too difficult to comply with in modern age. I find it innocuous and decent, something worth preserving. As simple as that.

People from same Got are from same parental lineage.

Again, your premise is correct but implied conclusion is wrong! A 'got' which supposedly been there for, say 50, generations- true, all kids in 50th generation had same parental lineage. What about their maternal lineages? 2nd generation kids had 50% of parental genes. In each successive generation these 'super' parental genes will reduced by half. Take it to 50th generation: out of your 562949953421312 genes only ONE is from your super गोत देव. Technically number will be a bit higher but you get the idea, right?

 

[swaich]

I havent said anything about science as I am not qualified to do so nor do I think its absolute. you have again showed your ignorance about our set up. when you meet a girl from your got or your mother got we call her sister and also give her some token money. Now ur argument for not marrying your cousin is that you think she is your sister due to your upbringing but a south indian may not agree to this who has the custom of marrying neice or cousin. when i tell you we are brought up this way and our set up is lik this you start some other argument. knowing the realities help sometime. anyway u wont believe what u dont want to

So do you mean to say the upbringing failed in case of couples who went for same gotra marriages? Their families didn't educate them enough on the issue?

Your line of argument simply is 'Lets not question a custom or tradition because its a part of our set-up'. Well apparently this custom and its interpretations has created enough problems and that is why we are discussing it on this forum in a thread, are we not?

 

[jsrana]

I, too, don't believe in same-gotra marriage and to be honest If someone from my village marry (or fled) with another fellow villager, I won't have any respect for such couple. But I won't hide this behind any false scientific logic. Whether 'same-gotra' marriages are scientifically wrong or right is IRRELEVANT. It is simply how I have been brought up, the percolation of traditional values and social norms. While social norms (and ills) do change with time, I don't think that not marrying in same the got is anything regressive or too difficult to comply with in modern age. I find it innocuous and decent, something worth preserving. As simple as that.

कांटे की बात कह दी भाई साहब बाकी सब मेरे ख्याल में भुर्लियाँ पै गैहेंटा जोड़ना सै |

धन्यवाद सहित |

 

[drrajpalsingh]

It says a risk of 2.2% higher, if you marry your first cousin. That is not conclusive enough to be classified as "great risk". What that essentially means is that only about 12 out of 100 first cousin couples would have unhealthy kids, as compared to 10 out of 100 for couples who are not cousins. Now extrapolating this to same gotra marriages (distant, distant, distant cousins according to traditional thinking), do you think there would be any significant difference between gotra and non gotra marriages?

Friend,
Perhaps I could not explain properly what the learned doctors have told or you are bent upon to thrust your idea upon the readers on the wrong premise.
It is your fundamental right and it is for you to decide whether you like intra gotra or inter gotra marriage but even if we can avoid this uninvited 12% risk [which you do not consider significant in spite of the fact that every life is precious] to the newly weds, it explains in itself the importance of avoiding same gotra marriages.
2. In the study, it has nowhere mentioned that what is the age of married women among the same gotra to conceive in comparison to 40 years mentioned for women with whom this percentage has been compared. Could you further enlighten you us on this point!
3. The universe of the study and data collected is nowhere given in this extract of paper printed in The Independent. Perhaps it pertains to England or UK. If you could suggest some other similar study to corroborate the findings of the learned doctors.
4. The study instead of supporting the votaries of same gotra marriage clearly says that in such type of marriages specific risk of genetic diseases is there. Even then, if people like to become more open minded by marrying their first cousins, none must interfere in it; indeed none can stop them as they have right to life guaranteed by the constitution of India.

In the end to make my point clear I would quote a very simple saying in Haryanavi:

GOTI GOTI BHAI, BAAKI KEE ASHNAI

i.e.

[PEOPLE OF THE SAME GOTRA ARE BRETHERN AND OTHER FOLKS ARE THEIR TO DEVELOP RELATIONS]

 

[swaich]

Friend,
Perhaps I could not explain properly what the learned doctors have told or you are bent upon to thrust your idea upon the readers on the wrong premise.

Sir, I am not here on any agenda, nor am I a novice at reading stuff, so it must be the bold above.

It is your fundamental right and it is for you to decide whether you like intra gotra or inter gotra marriage but even if we can avoid this uninvited 12% risk [which you do not consider significant in spite of the fact that every life is precious] to the newly weds, it explains in itself the importance of avoiding same gotra marriages.

Sorry to say, but it looks like either you didnt understand the piece I quoted or choose to nit-pick the details suiting your arguments. Either way, let me mention again, 12% for cousin couples and 10% for non-cousin couples. Now in any case you are getting a minimum 10% risk. My point (again mentioning it perhaps the third time) is that - is the 2% extra risk proof enough that we should avoid cousin marriages? And if we arent sure about that, how can we say anything about same-gotra marriages.

2. In the study, it has nowhere mentioned that what is the age of married women among the same gotra to conceive in comparison to 40 years mentioned for women with whom this percentage has been compared. Could you further enlighten you us on this point!
3. The universe of the study and data collected is nowhere given in this extract of paper printed in The Independent. Perhaps it pertains to England or UK. If you could suggest some other similar study to corroborate the findings of the learned doctors.
4. The study instead of supporting the votaries of same gotra marriage clearly says that in such type of marriages specific risk of genetic diseases is there. Even then, if people like to become more open minded by marrying their first cousins, none must interfere in it; indeed none can stop them as they have right to life guaranteed by the constitution of India.

So in the section I quoted above, you chose to accept the findings but said that the risk was significant enough and cant be ignored. But here you are doubting the research and its methodology. Fair enough, although the piece does mention it included immigrant muslim communities as well, I understand your questioning of the item as a lot of details arent mentioned. I will find another one for you then. In the meantime, could you find me a research that says same-Gotra pose marriages risks, with methodology and details too?

In the end to make my point clear I would quote a very simple saying in Haryanavi:

GOTI GOTI BHAI, BAAKI KEE ASHNAI

i.e.

[PEOPLE OF THE SAME GOTRA ARE BRETHERN AND OTHER FOLKS ARE THEIR TO DEVELOP RELATIONS]

Wouldnt it be an easy world if arguments and debated that include scientific analysis can be settled via proverbs and sayings?

If you do not want to go into any research or scientific study but just want to settle this via 'custom is custom', then please say so.

 

[sanjeev_balyan]

असल मे इस समस्या का जीन्स और साइंस ते कुछ लेना देना नहीं है।
इसका मतलब यो हुआ की साइंस के हिसाब ते अगर ठीक ना है एक गोत मे शादी , तो बिलकुल ना होण दो

और अगर साइंस के हिसाब ते कोई फरक नहीं पड़ता तो करण दो शादी
यूहे डिस्कस होरया है ,

गामा मे लोग , खाप आले जाने है के इस्स जीन्स कहानी ने ,
पीएचडी होण लगरि है यानहा इस्स बात पे

असल मे गामा मे अगर कोई केस ईसा होता है तो , माँ बाप एक बार छो मे आके , असेप्ट कारण ने तयार हो भी जा है ,

पर कुनबे आले , पड़ोसी , मोहल्ले, पट्टी, गाम, खाप आले ने जीन्स विंस कुछ नहीं याद आता
सीधी वही फिलिंग आवे है , जणे भाई बहन ने शादी कर ली हो

ये हमारी गामा के सामाजिक जीवन मे पले , बढ़े और परवरिश का नतीजा है

अब एक ऑप्शन है की असेप्ट कर लो इस ने , अर चुप रहो सब

दूसरा है की हो हल्ला मचाओ , और कई लोग इस होनर कीलिग ने भी सोचे है

दोणु ही गलत है ,
एक ही हल है की समाज मे कुछ करा जा , किसी तरह इस एक गोत शादी पे अंकुश लाया जा
इतना आसान नहीं है , ग्राउंड पे भौत कुछ करने की जरूरत है

जो मे ऊपर बात लिखी , इसने वही ठीक समझ सके है जो गाम मे पैदा हुआ और कम ते कम 12 वनही ते करी हो
जाटलैंड पे इसे मेम्बर कम ही है , ज्यादातर तो इसे है की गाम मे एक रात ना काटी जा

एसी रुम मे बैठ के , इंटरनेट पी किबोर्ड के बटन दबाये के बेरा पाटे गा ,

मे किसी के ज्ञान या मचोरीटी पे कोई कमेन्ट नहीं कर रहा , आप सभी की वजह से जाट बिरादरी का देश और विश्व मे नाम है,
माफी चाहूँगा किसी को बुरा लगे तो

 

[rekhasmriti]

na g na - bur maanne wali toh koi bat hi nahi

coz i belong to other category- jisne gaon mei ek rat bhi nahi guzari

gayee bhi toh - tourist spot ki tarah - khet dekhe - lassi peeli - n wapis back toh rohtak

but sir - pehle decide kar lo science ke chakkar mei aap isse galat mante ho
n apne bachon ko fansi tangne ko tayar ho

or u r doing this for the sake of custom n rituals- up bringing n all that gaon types jazz

if that is so - sir i would advice time has changed-

hum Jat - time ke sath nahi chale- toh humare ghar ke bache karenge out of caste shadi- n zindagi bhar shakal nahi dikhayenge

yeh bade - buzurg kab tak hai- kab tak hai yeh khap

hum hi inka future - n agar humne kar diya kinara- toh baja lo dhol


although i don't belong to village background- but even i know from childhood- kaun bhai - lagta hai

so plz - its not like i m defending getting married in same gotra ( i have said these xillion times)

just plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
one request - agar mera koi bahi ya behan aisa karte hai - toh
plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz give them one chance

maaf karne wale maafi karne wale se bada hot hai

plz they r our blood-our community


Regards,

असल मे इस समस्या का जीन्स और साइंस ते कुछ लेना देना नहीं है।
इसका मतलब यो हुआ की साइंस के हिसाब ते अगर ठीक ना है एक गोत मे शादी , तो बिलकुल ना होण दो

और अगर साइंस के हिसाब ते कोई फरक नहीं पड़ता तो करण दो शादी
यूहे डिस्कस होरया है ,

गामा मे लोग , खाप आले जाने है के इस्स जीन्स कहानी ने ,
पीएचडी होण लगरि है यानहा इस्स बात पे

असल मे गामा मे अगर कोई केस ईसा होता है तो , माँ बाप एक बार छो मे आके , असेप्ट कारण ने तयार हो भी जा है ,

पर कुनबे आले , पड़ोसी , मोहल्ले, पट्टी, गाम, खाप आले ने जीन्स विंस कुछ नहीं याद आता
सीधी वही फिलिंग आवे है , जणे भाई बहन ने शादी कर ली हो

ये हमारी गामा के सामाजिक जीवन मे पले , बढ़े और परवरिश का नतीजा है

अब एक ऑप्शन है की असेप्ट कर लो इस ने , अर चुप रहो सब

दूसरा है की हो हल्ला मचाओ , और कई लोग इस होनर कीलिग ने भी सोचे है

दोणु ही गलत है ,
एक ही हल है की समाज मे कुछ करा जा , किसी तरह इस एक गोत शादी पे अंकुश लाया जा
इतना आसान नहीं है , ग्राउंड पे भौत कुछ करने की जरूरत है

जो मे ऊपर बात लिखी , इसने वही ठीक समझ सके है जो गाम मे पैदा हुआ और कम ते कम 12 वनही ते करी हो
जाटलैंड पे इसे मेम्बर कम ही है , ज्यादातर तो इसे है की गाम मे एक रात ना काटी जा

एसी रुम मे बैठ के , इंटरनेट पी किबोर्ड के बटन दबाये के बेरा पाटे गा ,

मे किसी के ज्ञान या मचोरीटी पे कोई कमेन्ट नहीं कर रहा , आप सभी की वजह से जाट बिरादरी का देश और विश्व मे नाम है,
माफी चाहूँगा किसी को बुरा लगे तो

 

[virj]

This is ridiculous, Vipin. Why are you asking him to stop using scientific arguments? He did NOT start it

I think he understand why i asked him to stop it.

Again, your premise is correct but implied conclusion is wrong! A 'got' which supposedly been there for, say 50, generations- true, all kids in 50th generation had same parental lineage. What about their maternal lineages? 2nd generation kids had 50% of parental genes. In each successive generation these 'super' parental genes will reduced by half. Take it to 50th generation: out of your 562949953421312 genes only ONE is from your super गोत देव. Technically number will be a bit higher but you get the idea, right?

This isnt what i said. This is just out of your mind. I merely stated a fact that we give token money to goti sister regardless of state or how far we are seperated and this is another fact that we are from same lineage. So can draw conclusions on your own from facts

 

[virj]

So do you mean to say the upbringing failed in case of couples who went for same gotra marriages? Their families didn't educate them enough on the issue?

Your line of argument simply is 'Lets not question a custom or tradition because its a part of our set-up'. Well apparently this custom and its interpretations has created enough problems and that is why we are discussing it on this forum in a thread, are we not?

Now we are talking. See when you say family didn’t educate them. Who are them?? So far there is only one case of same gotra which I know. These things were known to them i assume as they are not special rules they are just obvious unless you are living in foreign land. Now you say this custom has created enough problems?? What are your basis?? Aren’t you talking without knowing the realities?
Only one case and you saying that it has causes enough problems?

Now i asked you before what is your logic of not marrying your cousin? You mentioned upbringing?? Let’s say your mother forget to tell you that you cannot marry cousin and you happen to marry your cousin (by you I don’t mean yourself). What will your family do here? Sometime in such cases family take extreme steps as killing to save their face or disown the kids. Now even if your family would have told you this still you decide to marry your cousin this is also possible in this case you blame the upbringing or the sick individual . So this should be looked at case by case basis. We have seen recently in news a French national raped his daughter. I mean there are all sort of people out there just because one or two of them you don’t go and change or blame the whole set up. In fact the set up is there to control these sort of people. 99.9% of Jats appreciate this set of rules and it’s the whole base of our society. You don’t have sisterly love for your sister because of science but it is because of these society made set of rules.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Wouldnt it be an easy world if arguments and debated that include scientific analysis can be settled via proverbs and sayings?

If you do not want to go into any research or scientific study but just want to settle this via 'custom is custom', then please say so.

Dear Friend,

I respect your right to express your views but by presenting both scientific study analysis and wisdom of the ancestors contained in the quotation wanted to broad base the discussion so that both the sides of the coin are seen by the protagonists of both the sides.

Take it in that light and keep on contributing your point of view on the issue to arrive at some convincing and acceptable, even if it is tentative, conclusion.

Thanks.