Those guilty of "Within Gotra" marriage should be ostrasized by JAT's... Yes or No ?

[sanjeev1984]

Bhai ye ek sati custom change kar ke humari society ne ek accha example set kiya tha... or kahin pe kisi ne is example ko awsome bhi bata diya... Sahi mai bahot badhiya example hai... aapne ye example de kar mera aadha kaam kar diya... actually mugjhe koi accha example dimag mai nahi aa ruha tha...

Aapne yahan kaha ki aapne ye example is baat ko explain karne ke liye diya ki "how customs change with time" but mere hisaab se to ye example "how" se jayada "why" ko explain karne ke liye hona chahiye... i mean "why customs should or should not change with time!!!!"

lets start... ek bar thoda study karna or hum sab ko educate karna about following things :-

1). Sati partha start kar hui? (Pehle ke to ikka-dukka case hi hain (jo facts kam hain or story jayada) but india mai jab muslim invasion suru hua tab iski sahi suruat hui or jaise-2 muslim hold india pe increase hota gaya, waise-2 is partha ne bhi joor pakadna suru kar diya... or iska reason kya tha shayad aap jante hoge...) Matlab 500-700 years pehle suru hua
2). Jab ye partha apne peak pe thi, tab percentage ke hisaab se kitni percent females ko iska victim banaya jata tha? (i dont think it would be more than 1% of total female population of india at that time) matlab ye custom population ke ek bahot choote hisse ko satisfy karta tha(may be less than even 1%, or much less than that), majority ya to iske against thi ya neutral thi...
3). is custom ka basis kya tha? koi basis nahi tha.. halaki kuch log isko follow karte the but majority iske against thi...
4). isko void kisne kiya, kyon kiya or void kyon kar dena chahiye tha??? society ne hi mil ke kiya (moral grounds pe)... kyon kiya (because ye baseless or inhumane tha)... or kar is liye dena chahiye tha ki isme kisi bekasoor ko apni jaan deni padti thi or majority ko iske violent hone ke karan satisfy or suit nahi karta tha...

ab ye sab question ab ye sab questions "same gotra" mai shaadi na karne wale custom pe apply karo :-

Origin??? No records about origin...
Acceptance in society??? jab se records abailable hain tab se majority mai log isko follow kar ruhe hain... or india mai har state mai, har community mai follow hota hai (in one form or another)... haan jaat target hote hain media ke because, jum isko rigidly follow karte hain or baki log thode lenient and easy hain (everyone follows except few...)
Basis : already explained by lots of people... genetics...
Need: is custom ki need to khud iska basis hi explain kar deta hai... is custom ko jisne follow kiya hai... i think na to kisi ko saza mili hai or na hi kisi ko koi pain hua or na kisi ki jaan gai hai... jisne follow nahi kiya problem unko hui hai (i feel sorry for them but they should not have done that)...

ab humare ek taraf to vo custom hai (sati) jisko follow karo to kisi ki jaan jaye... or ek taraf vo custom hai jisko follow karne mai koi nuksaan nahi hai... to doosre wala follow karne mai shayad koi burai nahi hai...

ab log bolte hain ki genetics wale reason se hisaab se to to intercaste shadi hi better hain... to mai ye kahounga ki theek to hai but panga to customs and values ka hi hai... for example agar mai (ek punjabi/gujarati/marathi/brahmin/muslim/harijan/rajput ya koi or community) intercaste shadi kar leta to jo humare riti-rivaj hai vo uske liye samajhne thode mushkil ho jate... or jin bato ke liye hum kuch jayada hi serious rehte hain, ho sakta hai us sab bato ko vo bahot lightly leti ya fir consider nahi nahi karti, or may bhi usko vo sab batein usko idotic lagti... (jaisa ki mere kuch dost batate hain)... in short unke beech nibhni thodi mushkil ho jati (jaisa ki mere kuch friends ke saath hua hai...)... halaki within caste shaadi 100% chalegi, iski to koi surity nahi hai but intercaste shadi ko avoid karne se, shadi ke successful hune ke bas chances thode se badh jate hain... please ab aap ye mat samajhna ki mai inter-caste shaadi ke against hu... i am ok with it but aviod kiya jaye to better hai...

further to this... sirf inter-caste hi nahi... or bhi sari cheez hoti hai consider karne ke liye... according to me, shaadi karte time jo within caste bhi barabari wala concept follow karte hain vo bhi theek hai... agar ladke or ladki ke gharwalo ke financial status mai bahot jayada difference ho to vo bhi ek un-neccessary ego develop kar deta hai... dono ke life style bhi different hote hain... way of thinking bhi alag hote hain... or different issues ho handle bhi different tarike se karte hain... or ye sari cheez hi difference create kar deti hai... (or ye baat sirf jato pe lagu nahi hoti, sab pe hoti hai)... mera maan-na hai ki.. izzat to sab ki karo but rishte karte time... financial status thoda equal sa ho to better hai... its bit like the potential difference concept of electricity, till the time two wires are apart everything is okey but once they touch eachother... there will be spark and can lead to fire... and that happens only because of potential difference...

mai bhi "same-gotra" shaadi se, physics tak pahunch gaya... is not it funny...

but ek custom ki baat se kitne sari or issues connect hain... bhai ye is tarah hai jaise ek bridge/building ke columns and beams, jo bahot sare nazar aate hain... kuch to gair-jarori bhi lagte hain or kuch building ki beautification mai bhi aade aate hain... or jin ko dekh ke ye lagta hai ki inme se kuch ko hata bhi de to koi farak nahi padega... building to tab bhi kadi ruhegi... but ek column ya beam ko hatane se uska sara load doosre pe chla jayega or ho sakta hai vo building hi gir jar... so meri suggestion ye hai ki agar kharcha bhi kam karna hai or building bhi khadi rukhni hai to kisi badhiya se experienced architect se consult kar lena chahiye... ho sakta hai us architect ke pass koi software na ho ye dikhane ka ki kisi particular column/bean ko remove karne se, building kaise unstable ho jayegi ya gir jayegi... but vo apne experience se, ek second mai bata dega ki vo particular column jarori hai ya nahi... or better yahi hoga ki aap bina doubt us architect ki suggestion maan lo... or aise hi humari society, culture and customs ke architects hain humare bade, humare senior, humare bujurg... to usne consult karne mai, koi sharam ya parhej nahi hona chahiye...

thanks for your time (whoever reading this)

smiles...

The example wasnt about Brahmins. It was to explain how customs change with time. Now please try reading it again and apply it to the same-gotra issue.

 

[rekhasmriti]

sir i guess it was kinda cheap comment


no offence to anyone

hahahahah................This is happening like the case when a boy and a girl indulge in romantic chatting on facebook..they decide to meet and ends up being brother/sister... both were using fake IDs..let the love flourish!!

looks like country is full of anjana's
people sleep with one another
get married in court
and they come to know about gotra of eachother when parents of girl start chasing them or kill them

and media comes with a news "ANOTHER MURDER BY KHAP"

 

[rekhasmriti]

" or kahin pe kisi ne is example ko awsome bhi bata diya"




sir g- that was me


" iska reason kya tha shayad aap jante hoge..."


I don't know- iske peeche bhi koi valid reason tha


i was toh thinking---coz after husband wife has got not right to live




" i am ok with it but aviod kiya jaye to better hai."


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


" financial status thoda equal sa ho to better hai... its bit like the potential difference concept of electricity, till the time two wires are apart everything is okey but once they touch eachother... there will be spark and can lead to fire... and that happens only because of potential difference..."




agreed-----not just financial status-rathewr education-upbringing-life style sab metter karta hai a lot






issie kehte hai apni bat manwana-
architect wala example super awesome that Boss

( as i m damn busy these days----so itni badi post dekhkar- i have decided - weekend par padhoongi-----but yeh jo end apne pehli bar THANKS likha n then smiles---taht touched my heart sir--- isliye padhna pada-----n no regrets at all)

hahahahah................This is happening like the case when a boy and a girl indulge in romantic chatting on facebook..they decide to meet and ends up being brother/sister... both were using fake IDs..let the love flourish!!

Bhai ye ek sati custom change kar ke humari society ne ek accha example set kiya tha... or kahin pe kisi ne is example ko awsome bhi bata diya... Sahi mai bahot badhiya example hai... aapne ye example de kar mera aadha kaam kar diya... actually mugjhe koi accha example dimag mai nahi aa ruha tha...

Aapne yahan kaha ki aapne ye example is baat ko explain karne ke liye diya ki "how customs change with time" but mere hisaab se to ye example "how" se jayada "why" ko explain karne ke liye hona chahiye... i mean "why customs should or should not change with time!!!!"

lets start... ek bar thoda study karna or hum sab ko educate karna about following things :-

1). Sati partha start kar hui? (Pehle ke to ikka-dukka case hi hain (jo facts kam hain or story jayada) but india mai jab muslim invasion suru hua tab iski sahi suruat hui or jaise-2 muslim hold india pe increase hota gaya, waise-2 is partha ne bhi joor pakadna suru kar diya... or iska reason kya tha shayad aap jante hoge...) Matlab 500-700 years pehle suru hua
2). Jab ye partha apne peak pe thi, tab percentage ke hisaab se kitni percent females ko iska victim banaya jata tha? (i dont think it would be more than 1% of total female population of india at that time) matlab ye custom population ke ek bahot choote hisse ko satisfy karta tha(may be less than even 1%, or much less than that), majority ya to iske against thi ya neutral thi...
3). is custom ka basis kya tha? koi basis nahi tha.. halaki kuch log isko follow karte the but majority iske against thi...
4). isko void kisne kiya, kyon kiya or void kyon kar dena chahiye tha??? society ne hi mil ke kiya (moral grounds pe)... kyon kiya (because ye baseless or inhumane tha)... or kar is liye dena chahiye tha ki isme kisi bekasoor ko apni jaan deni padti thi or majority ko iske violent hone ke karan satisfy or suit nahi karta tha...

ab ye sab question ab ye sab questions "same gotra" mai shaadi na karne wale custom pe apply karo :-

Origin??? No records about origin...
Acceptance in society??? jab se records abailable hain tab se majority mai log isko follow kar ruhe hain... or india mai har state mai, har community mai follow hota hai (in one form or another)... haan jaat target hote hain media ke because, jum isko rigidly follow karte hain or baki log thode lenient and easy hain (everyone follows except few...)
Basis : already explained by lots of people... genetics...
Need: is custom ki need to khud iska basis hi explain kar deta hai... is custom ko jisne follow kiya hai... i think na to kisi ko saza mili hai or na hi kisi ko koi pain hua or na kisi ki jaan gai hai... jisne follow nahi kiya problem unko hui hai (i feel sorry for them but they should not have done that)...

ab humare ek taraf to vo custom hai (sati) jisko follow karo to kisi ki jaan jaye... or ek taraf vo custom hai jisko follow karne mai koi nuksaan nahi hai... to doosre wala follow karne mai shayad koi burai nahi hai...

ab log bolte hain ki genetics wale reason se hisaab se to to intercaste shadi hi better hain... to mai ye kahounga ki theek to hai but panga to customs and values ka hi hai... for example agar mai (ek punjabi/gujarati/marathi/brahmin/muslim/harijan/rajput ya koi or community) intercaste shadi kar leta to jo humare riti-rivaj hai vo uske liye samajhne thode mushkil ho jate... or jin bato ke liye hum kuch jayada hi serious rehte hain, ho sakta hai us sab bato ko vo bahot lightly leti ya fir consider nahi nahi karti, or may bhi usko vo sab batein usko idotic lagti... (jaisa ki mere kuch dost batate hain)... in short unke beech nibhni thodi mushkil ho jati (jaisa ki mere kuch friends ke saath hua hai...)... halaki within caste shaadi 100% chalegi, iski to koi surity nahi hai but intercaste shadi ko avoid karne se, shadi ke successful hune ke bas chances thode se badh jate hain... please ab aap ye mat samajhna ki mai inter-caste shaadi ke against hu... i am ok with it but aviod kiya jaye to better hai...

further to this... sirf inter-caste hi nahi... or bhi sari cheez hoti hai consider karne ke liye... according to me, shaadi karte time jo within caste bhi barabari wala concept follow karte hain vo bhi theek hai... agar ladke or ladki ke gharwalo ke financial status mai bahot jayada difference ho to vo bhi ek un-neccessary ego develop kar deta hai... dono ke life style bhi different hote hain... way of thinking bhi alag hote hain... or different issues ho handle bhi different tarike se karte hain... or ye sari cheez hi difference create kar deti hai... (or ye baat sirf jato pe lagu nahi hoti, sab pe hoti hai)... mera maan-na hai ki.. izzat to sab ki karo but rishte karte time... financial status thoda equal sa ho to better hai... its bit like the potential difference concept of electricity, till the time two wires are apart everything is okey but once they touch eachother... there will be spark and can lead to fire... and that happens only because of potential difference...

mai bhi "same-gotra" shaadi se, physics tak pahunch gaya... is not it funny...

but ek custom ki baat se kitne sari or issues connect hain... bhai ye is tarah hai jaise ek bridge/building ke columns and beams, jo bahot sare nazar aate hain... kuch to gair-jarori bhi lagte hain or kuch building ki beautification mai bhi aade aate hain... or jin ko dekh ke ye lagta hai ki inme se kuch ko hata bhi de to koi farak nahi padega... building to tab bhi kadi ruhegi... but ek column ya beam ko hatane se uska sara load doosre pe chla jayega or ho sakta hai vo building hi gir jar... so meri suggestion ye hai ki agar kharcha bhi kam karna hai or building bhi khadi rukhni hai to kisi badhiya se experienced architect se consult kar lena chahiye... ho sakta hai us architect ke pass koi software na ho ye dikhane ka ki kisi particular column/bean ko remove karne se, building kaise unstable ho jayegi ya gir jayegi... but vo apne experience se, ek second mai bata dega ki vo particular column jarori hai ya nahi... or better yahi hoga ki aap bina doubt us architect ki suggestion maan lo... or aise hi humari society, culture and customs ke architects hain humare bade, humare senior, humare bujurg... to usne consult karne mai, koi sharam ya parhej nahi hona chahiye...

thanks for your time (whoever reading this)

smiles...

 

[swaich]

haan bhai swaich, ek baat bata humare customs and traditions future se aaye hain ya humari history se??? or agar history se aaye hain to sandeep ne us history ka jikar kar ke kya galat kar diya jiska, jo history bani hai humare purkho ke customs, traditions and sacrificies se...

When did I say its wrong to drag in history into the subject? And why is it thought that someone questioning current practices and customs doesnt take pride in is community's history.

waise to sandeep bhai ko muslims ko include nahi karna chahiye tha but jab aapne khud hi bol diya ki muslims mai bhi jats hote hain or vo kisi religion tak ristricted nahi hain... to fir to sab jat logo ko mila kar baat karni chahiye... correct me if i am wrong???

You are right. But I didnt get your point. How is that relevant to our discussion here? We can talk when with only the members on the forum.

 

[swaich]

Well, the meaning of in-breeding is pretty obvious and especially so, I believe to a learned person as you are.

Of course yes, there are a few traits which besides the cultural point of view are very particular to a community which distinguishes one community from another - and mind you these traits are both, beneficial as well as detrimental. It has been scientifically proven that a few communities in and from the Sindh area suffer from certain blood disorder and the reason given for it by the scientists and doctors is the practice of marriages within a very close circle EVEN within the community - For example marriage within relations and distant relations. Hence it would not be wrong to say that the practice of non-marriage within Gotras is the right practice followed from time memorial within our community.

And as far as gaining knowledge on genetics is concerned, I think I have studied enough of genetics during my college days. But it seems despite so much of literature in the newspaper and other media and scientifically proven and accepted facts, we still want to believe JUST what we want to believe. All that can be said in such cases is PLEASE GO AHEAD. SUIT YOURSELF BY ALL MEANS.

Sir ji, aap abhi bhi genetics ko is topic ke context mein nahi samjhe hain. Marrying within a close community does causes problems, but jatts are themselves a close community. So should we stop marrying amongst jatts?

The simple logic is that after a few generations, the risk of genetic problems decreases since other gotras have mixed into your gotra. This shouldnt be too hard to understand.

 

[swaich]

Bhai ye ek sati custom change kar ke humari society ne ek accha example set kiya tha... or kahin pe kisi ne is example ko awsome bhi bata diya... Sahi mai bahot badhiya example hai... aapne ye example de kar mera aadha kaam kar diya... actually mugjhe koi accha example dimag mai nahi aa ruha tha...

Aapne yahan kaha ki aapne ye example is baat ko explain karne ke liye diya ki "how customs change with time" but mere hisaab se to ye example "how" se jayada "why" ko explain karne ke liye hona chahiye... i mean "why customs should or should not change with time!!!!"

lets start... ek bar thoda study karna or hum sab ko educate karna about following things :-

1). Sati partha start kar hui? (Pehle ke to ikka-dukka case hi hain (jo facts kam hain or story jayada) but india mai jab muslim invasion suru hua tab iski sahi suruat hui or jaise-2 muslim hold india pe increase hota gaya, waise-2 is partha ne bhi joor pakadna suru kar diya... or iska reason kya tha shayad aap jante hoge...) Matlab 500-700 years pehle suru hua
2). Jab ye partha apne peak pe thi, tab percentage ke hisaab se kitni percent females ko iska victim banaya jata tha? (i dont think it would be more than 1% of total female population of india at that time) matlab ye custom population ke ek bahot choote hisse ko satisfy karta tha(may be less than even 1%, or much less than that), majority ya to iske against thi ya neutral thi...
3). is custom ka basis kya tha? koi basis nahi tha.. halaki kuch log isko follow karte the but majority iske against thi...
4). isko void kisne kiya, kyon kiya or void kyon kar dena chahiye tha??? society ne hi mil ke kiya (moral grounds pe)... kyon kiya (because ye baseless or inhumane tha)... or kar is liye dena chahiye tha ki isme kisi bekasoor ko apni jaan deni padti thi or majority ko iske violent hone ke karan satisfy or suit nahi karta tha...

1. Galat. I would say again you should read more but without forming preconceived notions. Your anti-Muslim bias is evident here. Sati didnt start 700 years ago. There are recorded incidents as old as during Alexander's invasion. And there is no correlation with Muslim invasions as your bias is making you think. In fact Mughal emperors tried curbing this practice but failed due to public pressure against interference in Hindu customs.
2. We have no way of ascertaining the percentage. How did you arrive at 1% figure?
3. Basis? Read about Sati. There was ample religious basis and thats why women did it or were pressurized to do it.
4. It was made void by both society changes and govt. pressure. It was a combined effort.

ab ye sab question ab ye sab questions "same gotra" mai shaadi na karne wale custom pe apply karo :-

Origin??? No records about origin...
Acceptance in society??? jab se records abailable hain tab se majority mai log isko follow kar ruhe hain... or india mai har state mai, har community mai follow hota hai (in one form or another)... haan jaat target hote hain media ke because, jum isko rigidly follow karte hain or baki log thode lenient and easy hain (everyone follows except few...)
Basis : already explained by lots of people... genetics...
Need: is custom ki need to khud iska basis hi explain kar deta hai... is custom ko jisne follow kiya hai... i think na to kisi ko saza mili hai or na hi kisi ko koi pain hua or na kisi ki jaan gai hai... jisne follow nahi kiya problem unko hui hai (i feel sorry for them but they should not have done that)...

ab humare ek taraf to vo custom hai (sati) jisko follow karo to kisi ki jaan jaye... or ek taraf vo custom hai jisko follow karne mai koi nuksaan nahi hai... to doosre wala follow karne mai shayad koi burai nahi hai...

ab log bolte hain ki genetics wale reason se hisaab se to to intercaste shadi hi better hain... to mai ye kahounga ki theek to hai but panga to customs and values ka hi hai... for example agar mai (ek punjabi/gujarati/marathi/brahmin/muslim/harijan/rajput ya koi or community) intercaste shadi kar leta to jo humare riti-rivaj hai vo uske liye samajhne thode mushkil ho jate... or jin bato ke liye hum kuch jayada hi serious rehte hain, ho sakta hai us sab bato ko vo bahot lightly leti ya fir consider nahi nahi karti, or may bhi usko vo sab batein usko idotic lagti... (jaisa ki mere kuch dost batate hain)... in short unke beech nibhni thodi mushkil ho jati (jaisa ki mere kuch friends ke saath hua hai...)... halaki within caste shaadi 100% chalegi, iski to koi surity nahi hai but intercaste shadi ko avoid karne se, shadi ke successful hune ke bas chances thode se badh jate hain... please ab aap ye mat samajhna ki mai inter-caste shaadi ke against hu... i am ok with it but aviod kiya jaye to better hai...

further to this... sirf inter-caste hi nahi... or bhi sari cheez hoti hai consider karne ke liye... according to me, shaadi karte time jo within caste bhi barabari wala concept follow karte hain vo bhi theek hai... agar ladke or ladki ke gharwalo ke financial status mai bahot jayada difference ho to vo bhi ek un-neccessary ego develop kar deta hai... dono ke life style bhi different hote hain... way of thinking bhi alag hote hain... or different issues ho handle bhi different tarike se karte hain... or ye sari cheez hi difference create kar deti hai... (or ye baat sirf jato pe lagu nahi hoti, sab pe hoti hai)... mera maan-na hai ki.. izzat to sab ki karo but rishte karte time... financial status thoda equal sa ho to better hai... its bit like the potential difference concept of electricity, till the time two wires are apart everything is okey but once they touch eachother... there will be spark and can lead to fire... and that happens only because of potential difference...

mai bhi "same-gotra" shaadi se, physics tak pahunch gaya... is not it funny...

but ek custom ki baat se kitne sari or issues connect hain... bhai ye is tarah hai jaise ek bridge/building ke columns and beams, jo bahot sare nazar aate hain... kuch to gair-jarori bhi lagte hain or kuch building ki beautification mai bhi aade aate hain... or jin ko dekh ke ye lagta hai ki inme se kuch ko hata bhi de to koi farak nahi padega... building to tab bhi kadi ruhegi... but ek column ya beam ko hatane se uska sara load doosre pe chla jayega or ho sakta hai vo building hi gir jar... so meri suggestion ye hai ki agar kharcha bhi kam karna hai or building bhi khadi rukhni hai to kisi badhiya se experienced architect se consult kar lena chahiye... ho sakta hai us architect ke pass koi software na ho ye dikhane ka ki kisi particular column/bean ko remove karne se, building kaise unstable ho jayegi ya gir jayegi... but vo apne experience se, ek second mai bata dega ki vo particular column jarori hai ya nahi... or better yahi hoga ki aap bina doubt us architect ki suggestion maan lo... or aise hi humari society, culture and customs ke architects hain humare bade, humare senior, humare bujurg... to usne consult karne mai, koi sharam ya parhej nahi hona chahiye...

thanks for your time (whoever reading this)

smiles...

I think all communities, khatri, brahmins start with avoiding same gotra percentages but slowly move away from it. The main reason for avoiding same-gotra marriage - genetics and the family set up (sisters and brothers) is void after the community grows big enough, is spread around geographically and changes like education and literacy happen. Sadly it appears the latter two are the only ones keeping this practice alive.

 

[rakeshsehrawat]

1. Galat. I would say again you should read more but without forming preconceived notions. Your anti-Muslim bias is evident here. Sati didnt start 700 years ago. There are recorded incidents as old as during Alexander's invasion. And there is no correlation with Muslim invasions as your bias is making you think. In fact Mughal emperors tried curbing this practice but failed due to public pressure against interference in Hindu customs.
2. We have no way of ascertaining the percentage. How did you arrive at 1% figure?
3. Basis? Read about Sati. There was ample religious basis and thats why women did it or were pressurized to do it.
4. It was made void by both society changes and govt. pressure. It was a combined effort.



I think all communities, khatri, brahmins start with avoiding same gotra percentages but slowly move away from it. The main reason for avoiding same-gotra marriage - genetics and the family set up (sisters and brothers) is void after the community grows big enough, is spread around geographically and changes like education and literacy happen. Sadly it appears the latter two are the only ones keeping this practice alive.

All Pundits strictly follow it
All Baniyas strictly follow it
Punjabis and Muslims don't follow it
We should always try to move towards better not blindly start following others. We should stick to our beliefs and practices to keep a separate identity an identity of our own. We are treated differently by everyone, Muslims and Britishers avoid us. This identity is from our ancestors this is in our DNA we will never be able to suppressed by others. Even with this comment you will try to counter argument as this is in your blood also you have a belief and you think this is right but with times when these beliefs start mixing with others we will surely loose our identity.

 

[swaich]

All Pundits strictly follow it
All Baniyas strictly follow it
Punjabis and Muslims don't follow it
We should always try to move towards better not blindly start following others. We should stick to our beliefs and practices to keep a separate identity an identity of our own. We are treated differently by everyone, Muslims and Britishers avoid us. This identity is from our ancestors this is in our DNA we will never be able to suppressed by others. Even with this comment you will try to counter argument as this is in your blood also you have a belief and you think this is right but with times when these beliefs start mixing with others we will surely loose our identity.

Identity is a fluid concept. Keeps changing with time along with the customs and traditions that define it.

 

[sanjeev1984]

Brother, i request you not to comment on my ideology and to remind you that you are not an authority to state that i am biased or not. As i already said that i welcome the criticism but allegation will not be tolerated.If you are not agree with one of my statement than you can criticize my words, but how you can claim that i am biased and you are not biased. Muslim invaded India that is true and history. For sati ritual, see this "http://www.ivarta.com/columns/ol_060328.htm" and a number of proofs are also available over the internet and libraries. I didn't said that muslims started this custom, it was started by hindus, but because of muslims. They would have tried to stop this custom but it is true that it was started because of them.

Mugjhe pata tha ki aap percentage ki baat jaroor karogae... isi liye main pehle ki kafi clear words mai likha tha... "(i dont think it would be more than 1% of total female population of india at that time) matlab ye custom population ke ek bahot choote hisse ko satisfy karta tha(may be less than even 1%, or much less than that), majority ya to iske against thi ya neutral thi.. brother read again and fir se reply karo...

koi religious basis naahi tha... or aapko pata ho to hum sab ko batao...

bhai aapka reply incomplete and hypothetical hai... please thoda sa research kar ke complete answer dene ki kosish karo...

brother i tried explaining it in simplest and detailed way, ever with example... but aapka kisi baat ko samajhna mere samjhane se jayada is baat pe depend karta hai ki aap us cheez ko samjhne mai intrested ho ya nahi...

1. Galat. I would say again you should read more but without forming preconceived notions. Your anti-Muslim bias is evident here. Sati didnt start 700 years ago. There are recorded incidents as old as during Alexander's invasion. And there is no correlation with Muslim invasions as your bias is making you think. In fact Mughal emperors tried curbing this practice but failed due to public pressure against interference in Hindu customs.
2. We have no way of ascertaining the percentage. How did you arrive at 1% figure?
3. Basis? Read about Sati. There was ample religious basis and thats why women did it or were pressurized to do it.
4. It was made void by both society changes and govt. pressure. It was a combined effort.



I think all communities, khatri, brahmins start with avoiding same gotra percentages but slowly move away from it. The main reason for avoiding same-gotra marriage - genetics and the family set up (sisters and brothers) is void after the community grows big enough, is spread around geographically and changes like education and literacy happen. Sadly it appears the latter two are the only ones keeping this practice alive.

 

[sanjeev1984]

do efforts... read comments... try co-relating them... main bhagwaan se prarthna karounga ki vo aapko samajhne mai aapki madad kare... waise ye sirf current practices and customes nahi hai... ye vo practices and customs hain... jinki wajah se hume aisi history mili hai jis pe hum proud karte hain... or problem tab nahi hui jab himne inko follow kiya... problem tab suru hui hai jab hum-ne inko maan-ne se mana kar diya... agar it customs or practices.. humare liye itne jayada problamatic or dangerous hote to humne ya to inka bahot saal pehle inko chood diya hota... ya fir inke karan humara existence... but it is not like that... humara exist bhi karte hain or inko follow bhi karte hain... hum time ke saath evolve bhi hue hain.. in customs ke hote huae...

When did I say its wrong to drag in history into the subject? And why is it thought that someone questioning current practices and customs doesnt take pride in is community's history.


You are right. But I didnt get your point. How is that relevant to our discussion here? We can talk when with only the members on the forum.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Friends,

Keep it up, very interesting discussion; hope more facts will emerge in due course for both the sides to be debated and then help us in arriving at some convincing conclusion!!!

Thanks.

 

[rekhasmriti]

i agree sir---

but conclusion toh ram g bhi aa jaye toh bhi nahi nikalne wala

( just saying so---- i don't think so humei unhe takleef deni chahiye---for this--he has more important things to do )

Regards,

Friends,

Keep it up, very interesting discussion; hope more facts will emerge in due course for both the sides to be debated and then help us in arriving at some convincing conclusion!!!

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

i agree sir---

but conclusion toh ram g bhi aa jaye toh bhi nahi nikalne wala

( just saying so---- i don't think so humei unhe takleef deni chahiye---for this--he has more important things to do )

Regards,

Baat ko ghuma phira ke kahane ka matlab aap bhi is bare mein apne sapast kuchh bhi vichar nahin rakhte.

Mera manana hai kee duniya kee sabhi samsayon ka der saber baatchit se hi hal nikalta aya hai; ab bhi aisa hi hoga.

Aap ko majak mein bhi nirash hone kee ya dusroyon ke bare mein yah kahne kee" --he has more important things to do'' jaroorat nahin honi chahiya. Hain, aap ko apni baat kahane ka pura adhikar hai. Would you let us know whom do say 'he' in your post!

Thanks.

 

[swaich]

Brother, i request you not to comment on my ideology and to remind you that you are not an authority to state that i am biased or not. As i already said that i welcome the criticism but allegation will not be tolerated.If you are not agree with one of my statement than you can criticize my words, but how you can claim that i am biased and you are not biased. Muslim invaded India that is true and history. For sati ritual, see this "http://www.ivarta.com/columns/ol_060328.htm" and a number of proofs are also available over the internet and libraries. I didn't said that muslims started this custom, it was started by hindus, but because of muslims. They would have tried to stop this custom but it is true that it was started because of them..

The link you posted was by one guy with his own hypothesis about the origins of Sati. Even a neutral guy who knows nothing about India's Hindu Muslim past will be able to tell that the article is extremely biased and written with an agenda to put the blame of the inhuman practice of Sati squarely on Muslims. The wiki page on Sati gives ample information with references on women practicing Sati during Gupta period and instances recorded during Mahabharata.

Mugjhe pata tha ki aap percentage ki baat jaroor karogae... isi liye main pehle ki kafi clear words mai likha tha... "(i dont think it would be more than 1% of total female population of india at that time) matlab ye custom population ke ek bahot choote hisse ko satisfy karta tha(may be less than even 1%, or much less than that), majority ya to iske against thi ya neutral thi.. brother read again and fir se reply karo...

I dont think we would be in a position to quote a figure based on what you or me could read. It could have been practiced by every second widowed woman or perhaps 1 out of 100 as you stated. But there's no way we could come at a figure. So its best to drop it.

koi religious basis naahi tha... or aapko pata ho to hum sab ko batao...

I think we all know about the religious association and the story linked with ShivJi's wife. If you choose to disregard that, its your wish.

bhai aapka reply incomplete and hypothetical hai... please thoda sa research kar ke complete answer dene ki kosish karo..

brother i tried explaining it in simplest and detailed way, ever with example... but aapka kisi baat ko samajhna mere samjhane se jayada is baat pe depend karta hai ki aap us cheez ko samjhne mai intrested ho ya nahi...

I can say the same about you brother. The reasons and the references you used dont hold water for me, so how can I agree.

And I would again repeat, the Sati example is being dragged. It was meant to show how insistence on same-gotra marriage and punishments for those who dont adhere to it s a rather regressive custom, which gradually washes away after a few generations and with increase in education.

 

[swaich]

Baat ko ghuma phira ke kahane ka matlab aap bhi is bare mein apne sapast kuchh bhi vichar nahin rakhte.

Mera manana hai kee duniya kee sabhi samsayon ka der saber baatchit se hi hal nikalta aya hai; ab bhi aisa hi hoga.

Aap ko majak mein bhi nirash hone kee ya dusroyon ke bare mein yah kahne kee" --he has more important things to do'' jaroorat nahin honi chahiya. Hain, aap ko apni baat kahane ka pura adhikar hai. Would you let us know whom do say 'he' in your post!

Thanks.

I think you are taking it far too seriously. Rekha meant Shri Ram when saying that 'he' has better things to do and bigger issues to solve than coming to earth and solving our topic of this thread.

 

[rekhasmriti]

sure sir : I would like to Explain who is that " HE" ---i was refering to


after posting--when i was reading---i was so sure---not everyone--would understand what actually have i said

" conclusion toh ram g bhi aa jaye toh bhi nahi nikalne wala

( just saying so---- i don't think so humei unhe takleef deni chahiye---for this--he has more important things to do ) "

in first line i have said ---ram g bhi aa jaye toh conclusion nahi nikal sakta --( ultimate solution for every problem is Almighty God)
by Ram G-- I meant " The GOD"

----next----humei unhe takleef nahi deni chahiye ---HE has more important things to do ------

yahan par " He " -- se i menat the Almighty God ---

---he has to take care whole universe---ab is choti si bat ke liye ( humare liye nahi hai choti---but comparing to universal issues toh choti hai_)

toh hum unhe kyun pareshan karein


so sir--- i was not making fun of anybody--rather i have never done such hidious thing ever--
just because someone is so smart-intelectual

that does not give him right to make fun of God's creation-


"aap bhi is bare mein apne sapast kuchh bhi vichar nahin rakhte"

i know u must be very busy-- so i m--- n so is everybody

jab whenver u have absolute faltoo time--please read my posts related to this topic

meine toh pehli hi---apne views pade --clear n cut bata diye the

jo ki kissi bhi JL memeber se nahi milte the--


so please---sir do not accuse me of soemthing--that i have not done or intended to do


nyhow---aap bade hai

agar meine zyada bola ho toh -- i m extremely sorry sir g

Baat ko ghuma phira ke kahane ka matlab aap bhi is bare mein apne sapast kuchh bhi vichar nahin rakhte.

Mera manana hai kee duniya kee sabhi samsayon ka der saber baatchit se hi hal nikalta aya hai; ab bhi aisa hi hoga.

Aap ko majak mein bhi nirash hone kee ya dusroyon ke bare mein yah kahne kee" --he has more important things to do'' jaroorat nahin honi chahiya. Hain, aap ko apni baat kahane ka pura adhikar hai. Would you let us know whom do say 'he' in your post!

Thanks.

 

[abhikrana]

Mr. Swaich,

Whether I have understood the topic in the context or not, you would not understand because it seems you are not ready to understand.

Of course the Jat community is a close - knit community, yet we have a very clearly delineated gotra system which ensures that the genetic inter-mingling does not happen too close. At the same time, the Jat community being a close-knit community is not a community of a handful of clans. It is a large community which is geographically spread out. Marrying out of gotras thereby ensures the keeping away/out of the ill effects or even the possibility of the ill effects of marrying anywhere close within the family tree or the extended family tree. Many, in fact most of our customs, traditions and way of living conform with the scientific principles/foundation, though when they came into being, the branches of various sciences weren't even in the incubator then. Hence, it would not be wrong to say that they were and are the precursors to further research in the various sciences.

Your last sentence, you have repeated what is being said by me all along. So, it should be me who should be asking "if it is all that hard to understand"...

 

[sanjeev1984]

The link i posted was by one guy with his own hypothesis!!!! I am excited to know about your views about this "http://www.scribd.com/doc/27178658/Misgivings-About-Hindu-Sati-Pratha" and this "http://www.articlesbase.com/religion-articles/sati-pratha-in-hinduism-true-face-198194.html" and this "http://www.helium.com/items/1031339-sati-pratha-a-crime" and this "http://www.redgage.com/links/theindian/sati=pratha-and-its-origins.html" and many more linkes are there... go to some library you will get a numbers of books too... Please let me know the numbers of proofs you need to believe in this fact. But still i am not getting one thing, how come what ever i see, read, write and speak is hypothitical and biased and what ever you read is factual and unbiased??? Please let me know, if you are an authority???

The percentage i gave was an apporximation and was only to show the minority of followers and majority of opposing people. If you have correct figures of number of victims vs total population of females at that time, please derive the percentage and let us know. I can still bet on it that it will not be more than 1%. So as that custom was inhumane and against the majority, it was made void and ppl stoped following it.

Please read carefuly, I already said ki muslim invasion se pehle jo bhi 2-4 incident hai vo fact kam lagte hain or story jayada, or usme shivji ki wife wala incident bhi included hai... isme regard ya disregard karne ka to sawaal hi nahi hai... further agar shivji ki wife sati hui, to ye religious basis kaise ho gaya... is story se basis kahan se pata chalta hai??? or baat aapne suru hi kar di to mai aap ko bata du ki humare jitne bhi scriptures hain or unme jitni bhi stories batai gai hain usme insaan kr character ki acchai or burai batane ki kosish ki gai hai... kya seekhna hai ye aapke upar hai... un story mai to kahin ye bhi likha hai ki "na koi marta hai or na koi maarta hai" ab isko aap kis tarike se impliment karte ho vo to aap pe depend karta hai...

You can say the same to me, but you must give proof. And if you give proof as "wiki link" please let me know the person who wrote that particular column in that page. But jo proofs mai dounga vo proper (books and links) names ke saath hongae... appka pata nahi but mugjhe lagta hai ki vo jayada reliable hongae... waise wiki page pe jo likha hai vo maine pehle bhi bola hai, which is "muslims tried to stop the custom" and it is true that they tried to stop it but this is also true that ye custom logo ne follow bhi muslims invasion ke karan hi kiya tha...

And i will repeat again ki this example is more appropriate to discuss "why to change" instead of "how it changed"!!!

Or bhai increase in education ki to baat hi mat karo... ye vo education system hai jo character development se jayada career development pe jor deta hai... or jo banda puncture lagane ki dukaan kholne wala tha unko bomb banane sikha deta hai (last 5-7 din mai 2 engineers pakde hain)... i can speak about our education system all day long... to cut it short, i suggest we should only learn to read and write from this education system but to become better human being and a man of character, we must learn from our culture, family values and traditions...

The link you posted was by one guy with his own hypothesis about the origins of Sati. Even a neutral guy who knows nothing about India's Hindu Muslim past will be able to tell that the article is extremely biased and written with an agenda to put the blame of the inhuman practice of Sati squarely on Muslims. The wiki page on Sati gives ample information with references on women practicing Sati during Gupta period and instances recorded during Mahabharata.


I dont think we would be in a position to quote a figure based on what you or me could read. It could have been practiced by every second widowed woman or perhaps 1 out of 100 as you stated. But there's no way we could come at a figure. So its best to drop it.


I think we all know about the religious association and the story linked with ShivJi's wife. If you choose to disregard that, its your wish.


I can say the same about you brother. The reasons and the references you used dont hold water for me, so how can I agree.

And I would again repeat, the Sati example is being dragged. It was meant to show how insistence on same-gotra marriage and punishments for those who dont adhere to it s a rather regressive custom, which gradually washes away after a few generations and with increase in education.

 

[sanjeev1984]

Dear Swaich,

few more examples for you...
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?o...islams-genocidal-slavery-&catid=170&Itemid=67
http://proud-hindu.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/12/impact-of-islamic-invasion-on-hindu-women.htm
http://www.isrj.net/PublishArticles/502.aspx

this is extracted from the first example of this post:-

The Muslim conquest of India was probably the bloodiest in history:The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with utmost glee and pride of the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave-markets, and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by the sword in this period” (historian Durant cited in Khan p 201)

And Rizwan Salim (1997) writes what the Arab invaders really did:‘ savages at a very low level of civilisation and no culture worth the name, from Arabia and West Asia, began entering India from the early century onwards. Islamic invaders demolished countless Hindu temples, shattered uncountable sculpture and idols, plundered innumerable forts and palaces of Hindu kings, killed vast numbers of Hindu men and carried off Hindu women. .........but many Indians do not seem to recognize that the alien Muslim marauders destroyed the historical evolution of the earth’s most mentally advanced civilisation, the most richly imaginative culture, and the most vigorously creative society.” (cited in Khan p 179)

This is written by a muslim author, i dont know it is biased or not but it is true. and that is how sati partha started. Before muslim invasion this partha was not in existance, or jo ek do kisse hain... vo bas kisse hi hain... read the 3rd point of second link... Or muslim invasion se pehle india mai females ko kaise treat kiya jata tha uske liye read the third link...

and even now, if you are not able to see anything, i feel sorry for you... and i pray to god to bless you sight...

so in other words sati was not a "partha" it was a ritual came into practice for a short period of time... and as this was inhumane and baseless it was discared later... it was declared a "partha" by few historians...

we should see "avoiding same gotra marriage" as not any custom, tradition, ritual or partha, instead it should be considered as a rule or system, which must be followed...

by the way can you tell me what is the use of your surname "swaich"?????

The link you posted was by one guy with his own hypothesis about the origins of Sati. Even a neutral guy who knows nothing about India's Hindu Muslim past will be able to tell that the article is extremely biased and written with an agenda to put the blame of the inhuman practice of Sati squarely on Muslims. The wiki page on Sati gives ample information with references on women practicing Sati during Gupta period and instances recorded during Mahabharata.


I dont think we would be in a position to quote a figure based on what you or me could read. It could have been practiced by every second widowed woman or perhaps 1 out of 100 as you stated. But there's no way we could come at a figure. So its best to drop it.


I think we all know about the religious association and the story linked with ShivJi's wife. If you choose to disregard that, its your wish.


I can say the same about you brother. The reasons and the references you used dont hold water for me, so how can I agree.

And I would again repeat, the Sati example is being dragged. It was meant to show how insistence on same-gotra marriage and punishments for those who dont adhere to it s a rather regressive custom, which gradually washes away after a few generations and with increase in education.

 

[rekhasmriti]

thank god!

atleast u got it


usually toh people balam eme

ki meri bat bas meri hi samajh mei aa sakti hai

I think you are taking it far too seriously. Rekha meant Shri Ram when saying that 'he' has better things to do and bigger issues to solve than coming to earth and solving our topic of this thread.