Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[drrajpalsingh]

Pitras are just ancesstors both devas and Asuras ..Bhoot Paret Pisachas were/are nothing ..Yama may be a historical figure but his yamloka with Pret pisachas and bhoots are just mythical stories.

Kharb Sahib,

Regarding identification of Pitrahs, Devas and Asuras general agreement has already been arrived among the members participating in the discussion here.

Yes Yama was a historical figure and a king as such.

Indian word Yama has its Iranian variant 'Yima'. Yama/Yima was the ruler of the 'Pitrahs.

This identification is confirmed by the Vayu Purana which says that "Yama, the son of Vivasvata, was crowned to rule over the kingdom of the Pitrs." [Chapter 70).

D.P. Misra (p. 42) has quoted evidence deduced from Yajur Maittranjya Samhita [1/6/32] to the effect that :"Manu and Yama were the sons of Vivasvan, Manu ruled in this region and Yama in the other."

Satpatha Brahamana [13/4/3/6] clarifies the 'other' by stating : Yamo Vaivasvato rajetyaha tasua pitaro vish i.e.Yama the son of Vivasvata has been called a king. The Pitrs are his subjects."

Thanks.

 

[romar]

We would welcome and be happy to learn what Dr. B.B. Lal or adherents/followers of the views of the learned authors have arguments to refute the above quoted references from Rigveda and Mahabharata !

Is gutthi ko suljhaane ke liye jaroori hai ki references ek kitaab ke ek jagah pur discuss kiye javaein.

Agar Sirf Rigveda ko liya jaaye to kya usme uttar kuru ya deva lok ka varnan milta hai?

Kya Rigveda main central asia ka varnan milta hai?

Rigveda main agar in jagahon ka varnan nahi milta aur baad ke granthon main jaise ki Aitreya Brahman ya Mahabharata ya Puraan main milta hai to iska kya nishkarsh nikala jaan chhaiye?

 

[romar]

Thanks for making it clear.

I don't know what you mean by Indian Aryan and Iranian Aryan .Do you mean tribes considered Aryan in Rigveda(Purus of pancha jana) as Indian Aryans.

And who were Iranian Aryans as per your understanding? I mean that group who had no fight with Dahyus.

Bharatiya aryon se taatparya hai veh arya jo bharata main rahte thhe aur jinhone rigved ki rachna kari.

Irani arya veh arya the jo bharat se uth kar iran ki taraf gaye thhe. Isi kaaran unki dasyu se ladaai nahi hui aur veh dasyu ko arya hi maante thhe. Bharat varsh mai anekoanek dharm aur mat utpann ho rahe thhe jo vedic dharm ki khilafat kar rahe thhe jaise baudh dharm, jaini dharm, Carvaka dharm aadi.

Iraniyon ka dharm bhi vedic dharm ki khilafat par hi khada thha.

 

[narenderkharb]

Bharatiya aryon se taatparya hai veh arya jo bharata main rahte thhe aur jinhone rigved ki rachna kari.

Irani arya veh arya the jo bharat se uth kar iran ki taraf gaye thhe. Isi kaaran unki dasyu se ladaai nahi hui aur veh dasyu ko arya hi maante thhe. Bharat varsh mai anekoanek dharm aur mat utpann ho rahe thhe jo vedic dharm ki khilafat kar rahe thhe jaise baudh dharm, jaini dharm, Carvaka dharm aadi.

Iraniyon ka dharm bhi vedic dharm ki khilafat par hi khada thha.

Ranbir Bhai


Iss thread ko suru se padhna iske alawa internet pe Aryan immigration ,AIT ,OIT par kafi matter hai.Eak baar aap uska adhyyan kijiyega .You will like it and our discussion will be more meaningful then.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Is gutthi ko suljhaane ke liye jaroori hai ki references ek kitaab ke ek jagah pur discuss kiye javaein.

Agar Sirf Rigveda ko liya jaaye to kya usme uttar kuru ya deva lok ka varnan milta hai?

Kya Rigveda main central asia ka varnan milta hai?

Rigveda main agar in jagahon ka varnan nahi milta aur baad ke granthon main jaise ki Aitreya Brahman ya Mahabharata ya Puraan main milta hai to iska kya nishkarsh nikala jaan chhaiye?

Friend,

Indra is invoked to come to the help of Aryans against their enemies a number of times in Rigaveda and he is also thanked for bestowal of victory on them and causing destruction of the Dasas, Dasyus and Asuras about whom no reference has been made by Dr. B.B. Lal in the paper referred above. Why?
Do you think, Dr. B.B. Lal is ignorant about the fight between various groups of the Aryans known as Devas and Asuras and many more for their control over means of production and wealth.

The answer is big no, he is a learned author and has knowingly feigned ignorance or overlooked just to prove his pre-conceived view.

Before proceeding further in the matter, kindly let us know whether you recognize the fact that there occurred battle between two groups of the Aryans known as Devas and Asuras or not !

There are so many references alluding to the region in north beyond the Himalayas i.e. 'Central Asia/UttrKuru-Devaloka' in the Rigaveda, Kindly go and look at the text please !

What a strange logic or your research methodology you forward that only one and not several evidences should be collected/examined for testing a hypothesis at a time and then come back and take another evidence and then again ......no end......

Yes, you are free to give all the references from one source on the issue in one post or at one place, please do so sooner than later.

We, the researchers, never keep ready stock of references as we do not know which way the discussion would take turn and move so we have to collect relevant evidences as and when the need arises to do so.

It would be in the fitness of the matter that you first devote some time to read the earlier posts right from the start to the date you entered the arena of discussion and then proceed to coming up with your source supported arguments not round about questions only.

Thanks.

 

[romar]

Ranbir Bhai


Iss thread ko suru se padhna iske alawa internet pe Aryan immigration ,AIT ,OIT par kafi matter hai.Eak baar aap uska adhyyan kijiyega .You will like it and our discussion will be more meaningful then.

Kuch galat kah diya ho to kshama kijiye.

 

[romar]

There are so many references alluding to the region in north beyond the Himalayas i.e. 'Central Asia/UttrKuru-Devaloka' in the Rigaveda, Kindly go and look at the text please !

What a strange logic or your research methodology you forward that only one and not several evidences should be collected/examined for testing a hypothesis at a time and then come back and take another evidence and then again ......no end......

Yes, you are free to give all the references from one source on the issue in one post or at one place, please do so sooner than later.

Aapse uttarkuru ka rgveda main likha jaan pucchne ke piche kaaran tha ki Macdonell and Keith dwara likhi gayi kitaab "Vedic Index of Names and Subjects vol. 1, p. 84" par likha hai ki Uttarkuru Rgveda may nahin apitu Aitreya Brahmana may paaya jaata hai.

Rigved ke rachnakaron ne uttarkuru janapada ki koi jaankari nahi di hai. Chunki Rgved bharatiya aryon ka mool granth hai aur anya granth jaise ki Aitreya Brahmana ityadi Rgveda ke baad likhe gaye isse to yahi parimaan milta hai ki Rigvedi logon ko uttarkuru ke baare mein koi jaankari nahi thi.

Is tathya ke kaaran yeh maan na mushkil ho jaata hai ki Rigved rachna karne wale uttarkuru se chal kar bharat pahunche.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Aapse uttarkuru ka rgveda main likha jaan pucchne ke piche kaaran tha ki Macdonell and Keith dwara likhi gayi kitaab "Vedic Index of Names and Subjects vol. 1, p. 84" par likha hai ki Uttarkuru Rgveda may nahin apitu Aitreya Brahmana may paaya jaata hai.

Rigved ke rachnakaron ne uttarkuru janapada ki koi jaankari nahi di hai. Chunki Rgved bharatiya aryon ka mool granth hai aur anya granth jaise ki Aitreya Brahmana ityadi Rgveda ke baad likhe gaye isse to yahi parimaan milta hai ki Rigvedi logon ko uttarkuru ke baare mein koi jaankari nahi thi.

Is tathya ke kaaran yeh maan na mushkil ho jaata hai ki Rigved rachna karne wale uttarkuru se chal kar bharat pahunche.

Friend,

Thanks and warm welcome for your questions on the issue of debate.

Could you say with certainty that there exists no reference at all in the Rigveda about the regions beyond Pamir i.e. Central Asia [old name Devaloka-Pitrloka etc] so that we could take note of the references before proceeding further to find out original abode of the Aryans.

Regards

 

[nrao]

Mein inki baat se sahmat hun. Upnishad mein dev-asur dwand ka ul-lekh aata lekin vedon mein inka ul-lekh ke baare main jaan-na chahunga. Rajpal ji kya aap bata sakte hain ki kis ved main aur kaunse mandal mein inki prastuti hui hai.

Aapse uttarkuru ka rgveda main likha jaan pucchne ke piche kaaran tha ki Macdonell and Keith dwara likhi gayi kitaab "Vedic Index of Names and Subjects vol. 1, p. 84" par likha hai ki Uttarkuru Rgveda may nahin apitu Aitreya Brahmana may paaya jaata hai.

Rigved ke rachnakaron ne uttarkuru janapada ki koi jaankari nahi di hai. Chunki Rgved bharatiya aryon ka mool granth hai aur anya granth jaise ki Aitreya Brahmana ityadi Rgveda ke baad likhe gaye isse to yahi parimaan milta hai ki Rigvedi logon ko uttarkuru ke baare mein koi jaankari nahi thi.

Is tathya ke kaaran yeh maan na mushkil ho jaata hai ki Rigved rachna karne wale uttarkuru se chal kar bharat pahunche.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Mein inki baat se sahmat hun. Upnishad mein dev-asur dwand ka ul-lekh aata lekin vedon mein inka ul-lekh ke baare main jaan-na chahunga. Rajpal ji kya aap bata sakte hain ki kis ved main aur kaunse mandal mein inki prastuti hui hai.

Rigveda is full of glorification of the Indra for his chivalrousness and bravery in dealing with the Asuras. What does that mean ! To me, it means there happened fights between the two Aryan groups for distribution and possession of means of wealth production and other materialistic things.

 

[nrao]

Agreed. So the next question from my end will be, if both groups were called Dev earlier then at what juncture were they called Aryan and Asur? Also, should we take 1000 year war to be exactly that long, या फिर कुछ छूट देनी उचित रहेगी ? When do you think this big war started?
Why do you disagree with the theory that Aryans may have migrated out then come back. In few threads, much before this thread started, you had written about an outward migration in another context.

Rigveda is full of glorification of the Indra for his chivalrousness and bravery in dealing with the Asuras. What does that mean ! To me, it means there happened fights between the two Aryan groups for distribution and possession of means of wealth production and other materialistic things.

 

[romar]

Friend,

Thanks and warm welcome for your questions on the issue of debate.

Could you say with certainty that there exists no reference at all in the Rigveda about the regions beyond Pamir i.e. Central Asia [old name Devaloka-Pitrloka etc] so that we could take note of the references before proceeding further to find out original abode of the Aryans.

Regards

Jitni vedic shabdon ki kitabein (jaise Macdonnel aur Keith dwara likhi gayi) se mujhe vakfiyat hai unke anusar to Uttarkuru Rigved mein nahi likha milta hai. Niche ek paper diya gaya hai aur isme Vedic geography ka acha jikr hai.

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[romar]

Rigveda is full of glorification of the Indra for his chivalrousness and bravery in dealing with the Asuras. What does that mean ! To me, it means there happened fights between the two Aryan groups for distribution and possession of means of wealth production and other materialistic things.

Aapka mat sahi pratit hota hai. Parantu ladai ka karan kya raha hoga? Kya yeh ladai Vedic Dharm ko lekar hui hogi?

Chunki Bharat mein bahut se dharm utpann ho rahe thhe to kya yeh swabhavik hai ki inke anucharan karne wale aapas me behas karein aur ladai karne lage?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Aapka mat sahi pratit hota hai. Parantu ladai ka karan kya raha hoga? Kya yeh ladai Vedic Dharm ko lekar hui hogi?

Chunki Bharat mein bahut se dharm utpann ho rahe thhe to kya yeh swabhavik hai ki inke anucharan karne wale aapas me behas karein aur ladai karne lage?

Friend,

Thanks for agreeing to the occurrence of Deva-Asura battles.

Derive your own conclusion, please, on the basis of available sources and studies the reasons and causes of these battles and share the same with us also.

Regards,

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Agreed. So the next question from my end will be, if both groups were called Dev earlier then at what juncture were they called Aryan and Asur? Also, should we take 1000 year war to be exactly that long, या फिर कुछ छूट देनी उचित रहेगी ? When do you think this big war started?
Why do you disagree with the theory that Aryans may have migrated out then come back. In few threads, much before this thread started, you had written about an outward migration in another context.

Friend,

Answer to last question first i.e. migration of some branches of Yayati group from India to outside regions had been mentioned in those posts, which would be taken up later on for scrutiny and if that is un-proved I am open to accept the latest version or to stick to the same conclusion if supported by the latest researches based on sources.

No war occurred between the Aryans and Asuras. The fact of the matter is that several rounds of Yudha were fought between the two branches of the Aryans known as Devas and Asuras.

No one can say with certainty about the exact period of lasting of these battles as one thousand years or 999 years or 1001 years. That is to say the total period of their clashes as comes to light on the basis of the study of different sources approximates to a thousand years.

Thanks.

 

[nrao]

Dr Singh, thank you for these answers.

I look forward to reading the outward migration from India. The Vedic geography resource that you have mentioned provides conventional dates, do you agree with that?

A very noteworthy quote from Tapas Pal's paper:
". After taking the Punjab to be the habitat of the RigVedic Aryans, the matter is not left at that. A further slant is introduced into the explanation of the geographical data in the Rig Veda: it is routinely implicit, on the foundation of an irrelevant theory based on a misapprehension of linguistic data, and without any basis within the RigVedic data itself, that a movement from west to east is to be discerned in the Rig Veda." (page 19)

Friend,

Answer to last question first i.e. migration of some branches of Yayati group from India to outside regions had been mentioned in those posts, which would be taken up later on for scrutiny and if that is un-proved I am open to accept the latest version or to stick to the same conclusion if supported by the latest researches based on sources.

No war occurred between the Aryans and Asuras. The fact of the matter is that several rounds of Yudha were fought between the two branches of the Aryans known as Devas and Asuras.

No one can say with certainty about the exact period of lasting of these battles as one thousand years or 999 years or 1001 years. That is to say the total period of their clashes as comes to light on the basis of the study of different sources approximates to a thousand years.

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Jitni vedic shabdon ki kitabein (jaise Macdonnel aur Keith dwara likhi gayi) se mujhe vakfiyat hai unke anusar to Uttarkuru Rigved mein nahi likha milta hai. Niche ek paper diya gaya hai aur isme Vedic geography ka acha jikr hai.

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Friend,

Thank you for providing link to Shri Tapas Pal's research paper. He has done a good research and accomplished a good job to achieve the objective set for his paper for which he deserves congratulations .

I think the document under reference, has been quoted out of place by you, perhaps inadvertently, as it has nothing to do with the earlier chronology, activities or ancient abode of the Aryans.

We quote the original objective of his paper for the benefit of scholars engaged in the present thread discussion:

"Objective: To search the actual physical world or geography that was privileged around 1500 BCE. and to airing or present the paleo-geography on a dish to present researchers in the world for their improving the research work and knowledge."

Since he has concentrated to acieve the well stated object of the 'Actual physical world or Geography' that prevailed around 1500 BCE' it would be a useful addition to the knowledge of that time of the Vedic India.

Do you think all of a sudden in 1500 BCE emerged Aryans at the' physical world' identified by him and also that they knew nothing about their past history, other places or people as mentioned by the scholar. (undoubtedly they are separate issues of research for others and rightly ignored by him.]



Nonetheless thanks for sharing the information.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dr Singh, thank you for these answers.

I look forward to reading the outward migration from India. The Vedic geography resource that you have mentioned provides conventional dates, do you agree with that?

A very noteworthy quote from Tapas Pal's paper:
". After taking the Punjab to be the habitat of the RigVedic Aryans, the matter is not left at that. A further slant is introduced into the explanation of the geographical data in the Rig Veda: it is routinely implicit, on the foundation of an irrelevant theory based on a misapprehension of linguistic data, and without any basis within the RigVedic data itself, that a movement from west to east is to be discerned in the Rig Veda." (page 19)

Friend,

I could not make out what message you mean to convey in the first line of the post under reference.


The relevant quote from p. 19 of Tapas Pal's paper is quoted [which includes the sentence quoted by you also] hereinunder:

"The home of the Vedic Aryans, during the period of composition of the Rig Veda, was the mid part of this area: the Saptasindhu or Punjab, the Land of the Five Rivers surrounded on the east by the Sarasvati and on the west by the Indus. Their eastern horizon was western Uttar Pradesh and their western horizon was Afghanistan. After taking the Punjab to be the habitat of the Rig-Vedic Aryans, the matter is not left at that. A further slant is introduced into the explanation of the geographical data in the Rig Veda: it is routinely implicit, on the foundation of an irrelevant theory based on a misapprehension of linguistic data, and without any basis within the Rig-Vedic data itself, that a movement from west to east is to be discerned in the Rig Veda. There are three rivers named in the Rig Veda to which this applies: the Sarasvati, Gomati and Sarayu. The Sarasvati in the Rig Veda is the river to the east of the Punjab (flowing through Haryana) and the Gomati and Sarayu in the Rig Veda are rivers to the west of the Punjab (western tributaries of the Indus). This is the common agreement, and it is documented by an appraisal of the references in the Rig Veda. But a Sarasvati (Haraxvaiti) and a Sarayu (Haroiiu) are also found in Afghanistan; and a Gomati and a Sarayu are found in northeastern Uttar Pradesh."

Friend,

Kindly pay attention to the bold line done by me and then comment please, if it has anything to do with prior life, home or anything else about the Aryans whose very advanced stage of Aryan culture is depicted by means of the Sacred Literature compiled by Veda Vyas of the Mahabharata fame and that too after 1500 BCE."


Friend, If we accept the views of Sh. Tapas Pal as gospel of historical research without scrutiny of various issues involved in it, say like, the composition date of Vedas and compilation date of verses as one and the same; and its authorship, then what about the chronology of Mahabharata War and so many other events in the history of India and abroad. That would lead to a chaotic scene in history and historiography, indeed!

Further, the learned author has not consulted the original Rigveda during the course of his research as he has honestly admitted in the introductory part of his research paper, hence no over dependence on his findings on the earlier periods of history than 1500 BCE.

All in all, a good piece of research on his chosen topic with certain limitations which evidently he has failed to make mention and also has failed to keep the topic open for further researches by suggesting some of the unresolved issues !

Thanks

 

[lrburdak]

If we go to [Wiki]Haryana[/Wiki] page on Jatland Wiki we find mention of 1500 BCE:

Vedic origins of -yāna as a spiritual journey

The use of yāna to use as a name or to refer to a spiritual journey may date to the Ṛgveda, possibly composed circa 1500 BCE, whose 10th Mandala makes several references to devayāna, (translators usually render this as the "path of the gods" or similar) and one reference to pitṛyāna ("path of the fathers"). The first verse of the Ṛgveda's burial hymn (10.18) translates approximately as "O Death, take the other path, which is distinct from the way of the gods" (paraṃ mṛtyo anu parehi panthāṃ yaste sva itaro devayānāt). The "other path" is the pitṛyāna, referred to in hymn 10.2 and alluded to in 10.14 and 10.16.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

If we go to Haryana page on Jatland Wiki we find mention of 1500 BCE:

Vedic origins of -yāna as a spiritual journey

The use of yāna to use as a name or to refer to a spiritual journey may date to the Ṛgveda, possibly composed circa 1500 BCE, whose 10th Mandala makes several references to devayāna, (translators usually render this as the "path of the gods" or similar) and one reference to pitṛyāna ("path of the fathers"). The first verse of the Ṛgveda's burial hymn (10.18) translates approximately as "O Death, take the other path, which is distinct from the way of the gods" (paraṃ mṛtyo anu parehi panthāṃ yaste sva itaro devayānāt). The "other path" is the pitṛyāna, referred to in hymn 10.2 and alluded to in 10.14 and 10.16.

Thanks Burdakji,

For providing valuable reference to Devas and Pitras which would pave way for further research about the location of the two places referred to in the Rigveda.

Regards,