Tapas Pal ne 1500 BC isliye chuna hai kyonki Rigveda ki rachna 1500 BC may ki gai maani jaati hai. Is kaaran se unka paper Rgvedic geography ke baare me baat kar raha hai. Kain shloko ka reference diya hai unke paper mein. Ve sab Rigved ke shloka hain. Jo naksha diya hai veh bhi Rigvedic geography ka hai.
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Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions
- Thread starter drrajpalsingh
- Start date
Aryon ki utpatti ek bahut bada anusandhaan ka topic hai. Pashchimi vidvaanon ke anusaar Rigved ki rachna 1500 BC mein ki gayi. Inhi vidvaanon ka maan na hai ki Jin aryon neh is ki rachna ki veh Eurasia ki steppe se uth kar aaye thhe.Do you think all of a sudden in 1500 BCE emerged Aryans at the' physical world' identified by him and also that they knew nothing about their past history, other places or people as mentioned by the scholar. (undoubtedly they are separate issues of research for others and rightly ignored by him.]
Prashan yehi hai ki agar yeh arya bahar se aaye thhe to inhone eurasian steppe aur madhya asia ka jikra Rigved main kyun nahi kiya.
Yeh richayen kisi sthan ki soochak kaise hain yeh samajh mein nahi aa raha hai.If we go to Haryana page on Jatland Wiki we find mention of 1500 BCE:
Vedic origins of -yāna as a spiritual journey
The use of yāna to use as a name or to refer to a spiritual journey may date to the Ṛgveda, possibly composed circa 1500 BCE, whose 10th Mandala makes several references to devayāna, (translators usually render this as the "path of the gods" or similar) and one reference to pitṛyāna ("path of the fathers"). The first verse of the Ṛgveda's burial hymn (10.18) translates approximately as "O Death, take the other path, which is distinct from the way of the gods" (paraṃ mṛtyo anu parehi panthāṃ yaste sva itaro devayānāt). The "other path" is the pitṛyāna, referred to in hymn 10.2 and alluded to in 10.14 and 10.16.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Tapas Pal ne 1500 BC isliye chuna hai kyonki Rigveda ki rachna 1500 BC may ki gai maani jaati hai. Is kaaran se unka paper Rgvedic geography ke baare me baat kar raha hai. Kain shloko ka reference diya hai unke paper mein. Ve sab Rigved ke shloka hain. Jo naksha diya hai veh bhi Rigvedic geography ka hai.
Tapas Pal ji ko alag chhodte hain, philhal.
Kya aap ka bhi yahi manana hai ki Rigveda period 1500 BCE hi hai aur isme jo verses hain unme inse pahale ke kaal / vyaktiyon/ sthanon ka kahin bhi koi zikar nahin hai.
Kya Deva aur Asuras ke aapsi vivad, inki ladai mein Indra ki bhumika, Das Rajan Yudh prakaran itiyadi ghatnakaram bhi Vedic Sahitya se gayab hai.
Agar nahin to Aryon ka itihas 1500 BCE se hi shuruaat manana tarksangat nahin hoga !!
Isiliya is sare ghatnakaram ko samjhane ke liya Vedic-Pauranic, epic, and other literary aur Archaeology, philology, biology, etc dwara pushtikrit samgri ka tulnatamk adhyayana karna tarksangat rahega; kewal yah kah dena kafi nahin hoga ki amuk baat amuk granth mein nahin likhi milti, to woh baat/ghtana kabhi ghatit hi nahin hui.
AApke rachnatamak vichoron aur tarksangat sujhavon ke intzar mein ........
Dhanyavad
drrajpalsingh
New member
Yeh richayen kisi sthan ki soochak kaise hain yeh samajh mein nahi aa raha hai.
Aapki samajh mein kya aa raha hai,jara humse bhi sajha kijiyga !
drrajpalsingh
New member
Aryon ki utpatti ek bahut bada anusandhaan ka topic hai. Pashchimi vidvaanon ke anusaar Rigved ki rachna 1500 BC mein ki gayi. Inhi vidvaanon ka maan na hai ki Jin aryon neh is ki rachna ki veh Eurasia ki steppe se uth kar aaye thhe.
Prashan yehi hai ki agar yeh arya bahar se aaye thhe to inhone eurasian steppe aur madhya asia ka jikra Rigved main kyun nahi kiya.
Vedic-Puranic-Epic literature Aryon ke prachintam niwas aur har sambadh paksh ki bharpur jankaari deta hai jo isi thread mein pahle praman sahit prashtut ki ja chuki hai !!
drrajpalsingh
New member
Friends,
For the time being we leave the chronology and ancient abode issue for the Aryas to be taken up subsequently because the Rigveda reference points have been raised frequently by the participants in recent points. Hence we take up first one of the oft quoted issue first ''Das Rajan Yudha''.
It will be appreciated if participant throw light on the chronology/date of the Sudas's battle against the Ten Kings and extend help in identifying the kingdoms of the contesting parties which finds mention in so many words in the Rigveda.
Thanks
For the time being we leave the chronology and ancient abode issue for the Aryas to be taken up subsequently because the Rigveda reference points have been raised frequently by the participants in recent points. Hence we take up first one of the oft quoted issue first ''Das Rajan Yudha''.
It will be appreciated if participant throw light on the chronology/date of the Sudas's battle against the Ten Kings and extend help in identifying the kingdoms of the contesting parties which finds mention in so many words in the Rigveda.
Thanks
ravinderjeet
New member
Aapka mat sahi pratit hota hai. Parantu ladai ka karan kya raha hoga? Kya yeh ladai Vedic Dharm ko lekar hui hogi?
Chunki Bharat mein bahut se dharm utpann ho rahe thhe to kya yeh swabhavik hai ki inke anucharan karne wale aapas me behas karein aur ladai karne lage?
उस लड़ाई का जीकर पारसिओं के धर्म ग्रन्थ "आदिवेस्ता"में भी आता हे। जिसमे वे अपने आप को देवता और विरोधिओं को असुर मानते हैं । यह ग्रन्थ ऋग्वेद के समकालीन हे । पारसिओं के देवता ,आर्यों के असुर और आर्यों के देवता पारसिओं के असुर जान पड़ते हैं । उनोहने आर्य शब्द का प्रयोग बुरे व्यक्ति के रूप में किया परतीत होता हे । आदिवेस्ता और ऋग्वेद की भाषा या कहें शब्दावली भी बहुत मिलती जुलती हे ।इस पर गहन अध्यन की आवश्यकता हे । परसिओं और कुर्दों द्वारा स्वास्तिक का प्रयोग करना ,कुंए जोहड़ को पूजना ,अग्नि की पूजा करना , अपने पुरखों के मंदिर ( भेयाँ ,धोक , वढेरे) बनाना आदि जट्टों से बहुत मिलता जुलता हे ।आदि-वेस्ता भी मुझे लगता हे "आदि-वेदा" का ही अपभ्रंश हे । पारसी आपने धर्म ग्रन्थ को ऋग्वेद से भी पुराना मानते हैं । मुझे एक पारसी पुजारी मिला था जो बता रहा था की तुम पंजाबी लोग हमारे ही भाई बंधू हो ,जो हजारों साल पहले बीछड गए थे ।
drrajpalsingh
New member
उस लड़ाई का जीकर पारसिओं के धर्म ग्रन्थ "आदिवेस्ता"में भी आता हे। जिसमे वे अपने आप को देवता और विरोधिओं को असुर मानते हैं । यह ग्रन्थ ऋग्वेद के समकालीन हे । पारसिओं के देवता ,आर्यों के असुर और आर्यों के देवता पारसिओं के असुर जान पड़ते हैं । उनोहने आर्य शब्द का प्रयोग बुरे व्यक्ति के रूप में किया परतीत होता हे । आदिवेस्ता और ऋग्वेद की भाषा या कहें शब्दावली भी बहुत मिलती जुलती हे ।इस पर गहन अध्यन की आवश्यकता हे । परसिओं और कुर्दों द्वारा स्वास्तिक का प्रयोग करना ,कुंए जोहड़ को पूजना ,अग्नि की पूजा करना , अपने पुरखों के मंदिर ( भेयाँ ,धोक , वढेरे) बनाना आदि जट्टों से बहुत मिलता जुलता हे ।आदि-वेस्ता भी मुझे लगता हे "आदि-वेदा" का ही अपभ्रंश हे । पारसी आपने धर्म ग्रन्थ को ऋग्वेद से भी पुराना मानते हैं । मुझे एक पारसी पुजारी मिला था जो बता रहा था की तुम पंजाबी लोग हमारे ही भाई बंधू हो ,जो हजारों साल पहले बीछड गए थे ।
Friend,
One reference supporting your view is reproduced :
''In the Iranian pantheon there is the god Ahura, who figures in the Rigveda as Asura and is mentioned distinctly with Mitra and Varuna in [ V. 63. 3].
The Ahura is the lord of waters [apa], that are called his wives or daughters [Ahurani] in Yasna Haptanhaiti [38.3; 68.10], just as Asura is said to be sprinkling down the waters in Rigveda V.83.6.
At places Asura is identified with Varuna, as in the concept of Asura-Varuna, and associated with waters.... Varuna also figures as the regulator of waters, causing the rivers to flow according to his ordinance [ Rigveda II.28.4].''----------see for further discussion on the issue, Dr. Budha Prakash, pp. 45-46.
Thanks and regards
Tapas Pal ji ko alag chhodte hain, philhal.
Kya aap ka bhi yahi manana hai ki Rigveda period 1500 BCE hi hai aur isme jo verses hain unme inse pahale ke kaal / vyaktiyon/ sthanon ka kahin bhi koi zikar nahin hai.
Mera maan na hai ki Rigved ki rachna 1500 BC se pehle hui hai. Kitna pehle hui hai kehna mushkil hai. Agar samay baandha jaaye to karam kuch is prakar hoga:
i) Rigveda
ii) Upanishad/Brahman aadi
iii) Mahabharata
iv) Puraan
Kya Deva aur Asuras ke aapsi vivad, inki ladai mein Indra ki bhumika, Das Rajan Yudh prakaran itiyadi ghatnakaram bhi Vedic Sahitya se gayab hai.
Agar nahin to Aryon ka itihas 1500 BCE se hi shuruaat manana tarksangat nahin hoga !!
Isiliya is sare ghatnakaram ko samjhane ke liya Vedic-Pauranic, epic, and other literary aur Archaeology, philology, biology, etc dwara pushtikrit samgri ka tulnatamk adhyayana karna tarksangat rahega; kewal yah kah dena kafi nahin hoga ki amuk baat amuk granth mein nahin likhi milti, to woh baat/ghtana kabhi ghatit hi nahin hui.
AApke rachnatamak vichoron aur tarksangat sujhavon ke intzar mein ........
Dhanyavad
Parantu yeh manwaane ke liye ki Rigved ka rachiyta central asia se vakif thhe kuch saboot to Rigved mein hi dhoondana padega. Yeh samajh mey nahi aa raha hai ki Mahabharat aur Puraan agar CentralAsia se vakif hain to Rigved automatically Central Asia se kaise vaakif bataya ja sakta hai?
Agar Irani Aryon ke bhagwan , Ahura, Rigved mein mojood hain to isse aap yeh nishkarsh kaise laga rahe hain ki Rigved Central Asia se vaakif hai?
Rajpal ji,
This diversion is little unfortunate as I was enjoying your earlier discussion. I think that you theory has some legs except when you ventured to say that the original abode was very vast stretching from one end of east asia to deep into west asia. But I will wait when you are done with this phase and return to Pamir area once again with dev-asur and tri-lok discusssion. I still own you quotes from Dhaiya's later works, which I will provide soon.
This diversion is little unfortunate as I was enjoying your earlier discussion. I think that you theory has some legs except when you ventured to say that the original abode was very vast stretching from one end of east asia to deep into west asia. But I will wait when you are done with this phase and return to Pamir area once again with dev-asur and tri-lok discusssion. I still own you quotes from Dhaiya's later works, which I will provide soon.
Friends,
For the time being we leave the chronology and ancient abode issue for the Aryas to be taken up subsequently because the Rigveda reference points have been raised frequently by the participants in recent points. Hence we take up first one of the oft quoted issue first ''Das Rajan Yudha''.
It will be appreciated if participant throw light on the chronology/date of the Sudas's battle against the Ten Kings and extend help in identifying the kingdoms of the contesting parties which finds mention in so many words in the Rigveda.
Thanks
उस लड़ाई का जीकर पारसिओं के धर्म ग्रन्थ "आदिवेस्ता"में भी आता हे। जिसमे वे अपने आप को देवता और विरोधिओं को असुर मानते हैं । यह ग्रन्थ ऋग्वेद के समकालीन हे । पारसिओं के देवता ,आर्यों के असुर और आर्यों के देवता पारसिओं के असुर जान पड़ते हैं । उनोहने आर्य शब्द का प्रयोग बुरे व्यक्ति के रूप में किया परतीत होता हे । आदिवेस्ता और ऋग्वेद की भाषा या कहें शब्दावली भी बहुत मिलती जुलती हे ।इस पर गहन अध्यन की आवश्यकता हे । परसिओं और कुर्दों द्वारा स्वास्तिक का प्रयोग करना ,कुंए जोहड़ को पूजना ,अग्नि की पूजा करना , अपने पुरखों के मंदिर ( भेयाँ ,धोक , वढेरे) बनाना आदि जट्टों से बहुत मिलता जुलता हे ।आदि-वेस्ता भी मुझे लगता हे "आदि-वेदा" का ही अपभ्रंश हे । पारसी आपने धर्म ग्रन्थ को ऋग्वेद से भी पुराना मानते हैं । मुझे एक पारसी पुजारी मिला था जो बता रहा था की तुम पंजाबी लोग हमारे ही भाई बंधू हो ,जो हजारों साल पहले बीछड गए थे ।
Agar Arya shabd bure vyakti ke liye prayog kiya hota to yeh apne desh ka naam Iran kyon rakhte? Iran shabd Aryan se hi bana hai.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Rajpal ji,
This diversion is little unfortunate as I was enjoying your earlier discussion. I think that you theory has some legs except when you ventured to say that the original abode was very vast stretching from one end of east asia to deep into west asia. But I will wait when you are done with this phase and return to Pamir area once again with dev-asur and tri-lok discusssion. I still own you quotes from Dhaiya's later works, which I will provide soon.
Friend about what quote from Dhaiya's work are you referring to, I am hearing this name from this post as, believe me, tothe best of my knowledge and belief I do not know any such person as Dhaiya, not to speak his earlier or later work. Enlighten me about the person and his works and also share with us about the quote referred to by you in the post under referrence at the earliest.
Yes, we will be discussing the abode of the Aryans very soon.
Thanks.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Mera maan na hai ki Rigved ki rachna 1500 BC se pehle hui hai. Kitna pehle hui hai kehna mushkil hai. Agar samay baandha jaaye to karam kuch is prakar hoga:
i) Rigveda
ii) Upanishad/Brahman aadi
iii) Mahabharata
iv) Puraan
Parantu yeh manwaane ke liye ki Rigved ka rachiyta central asia se vakif thhe kuch saboot to Rigved mein hi dhoondana padega. Yeh samajh mey nahi aa raha hai ki Mahabharat aur Puraan agar CentralAsia se vakif hain to Rigved automatically Central Asia se kaise vaakif bataya ja sakta hai?
Agar Irani Aryon ke bhagwan , Ahura, Rigved mein mojood hain to isse aap yeh nishkarsh kaise laga rahe hain ki Rigved Central Asia se vaakif hai?
Friend,
First reply the few questions so that we could move forward in the direction of discussion of the issue of the thread.
1.Read my post again, I have not said that Ahura is as such present in the Rigveda. Instead, Asura, with characteristic of Ahura has been referred to in my quote along with Varun, Asura-Varuna.
2. Aap dwara Rigveda ka rachnakaal [1500 B.C. ya is se pahale] fix karane ka aadhar kya hai !
3. Aap ki list se baaki Vedas, Vedang gayab kyon hai.
4. Kya aapka yah manana hai ki Jo baat Rigved mein varanan nahin paati to woh kabhi ghatit hi nahin hui chahe usake dusare kitane bhi pramaan hon!
Thanks.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Rajpal ji,
This diversion is little unfortunate as I was enjoying your earlier discussion. I think that you theory has some legs except when you ventured to say that the original abode was very vast stretching from one end of east asia to deep into west asia.
But I will wait when you are done with this phase and return to Pamir area once again with dev-asur and tri-lok discusssion. .....
Friend,
Please share your reading by joining us in discussion right now, why to wait.
Thanks
Friend,
First reply the few questions so that we could move forward in the direction of discussion of the issue of the thread.
1.Read my post again, I have not said that Ahura is as such present in the Rigveda. Instead, Asura, with characteristic of Ahura has been referred to in my quote along with Varun, Asura-Varuna.
2. Aap dwara Rigveda ka rachnakaal [1500 B.C. ya is se pahale] fix karane ka aadhar kya hai !
3. Aap ki list se baaki Vedas, Vedang gayab kyon hai.
4. Kya aapka yah manana hai ki Jo baat Rigved mein varanan nahin paati to woh kabhi ghatit hi nahin hui chahe usake dusare kitane bhi pramaan hon!
Thanks.
1. Ho sakta hai mere samjhne mein kuch kami rah gayi ho. Aapke dwara likhit Ahura ke samaan Asura ka Rigved me paaya jaana ka arth maine samjha ki aap kahana chah rahe hain ki Rigvedi rachnakaron ne central asia ka reference diya hai.
2. Rigvedon mein Saraswati nadi ko bahut mehattav diya hai. Nadi par anusnadhaan karne waale vaigyanikon ka maan na hai ki Saraswati 1900 BC mein sook gayi thi. Chunki Rigved mein yeh nadi paani se bharpoor thhi to iska abhipray yahi lagta hai ki Rigved 1900 BC se pehle likha gaya hoga.
3. List se gayab nahin hain veh "aadi" dwara ghul ghay hain.
4. Mera yeh maan na hai ki agar Rigved ki rachna karne waale Arya central Asia se aaye hote to veh Rigved mein avashya apni mool jagah ka varnan likhte. Rigved ke Aryon ko katai yaad nahi hai ki veh khain aur se uth kar bharat pahunche.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Agar Arya shabd bure vyakti ke liye prayog kiya hota to yeh apne desh ka naam Iran kyon rakhte? Iran shabd Aryan se hi bana hai.
Dost,
Yeh kya guthi hai jara vistaar se prakash dalenge ki Iran aur Arya Ek hain aur aisa hone ka aap kya karan mante hain !
Dhanyavaad !!
drrajpalsingh
New member
Friends,
Full details as found in Vishnu Purana about one of the battles between the Devas and the Asuras is presented below for favour of the readers' comments with a request to identify the chronology and personages involved in the battle alongwith the region and reasons of the contest between the two parties:
1. According to Vishnu Purana, (Book IV, Part-II, p 288):
“In the Treta age a violent war broke out between the gods and the Asuras, in which the former were vanquished. They consequently had recourse to Vishnu for assistance, and propitiated him by their adorations. The eternal ruler of the universe, Narayana, had compassion upon them, and said: “What you desire is known unto me. Hear how your wishes shall be fulfilled. There is an illustrious prince named Puranjaya, the son of a royal sage; into his person I will infuse a portion of myself, and having descended upon earth I will in his person subdue all your enemies. Do you therefore endevour to secure the aid of Puranjaya for the destruction of your foes.”
Acknowledging with reverence the kindness of the deity, the immortals quitted his presence, and repaired to Puranjaya, whom they thus addressed:
“Most renowned Kshatriya, we have come to thee to solicit thy alliance against our enemies; it will not become thee to disappoint our hope.”
The Prince replied, “Let this your Indra, the monarch of the spheres, the god of a hundred sacrifices, consent to carry me upon his shoulders, and I will wage battle with your adversaries as your ally.” The gods and Indra readily answered, “So be it;” and the latter assuming the shape of a bull, the Prince mounted upon his shoulder.
Being then filled with delight, and invigorated by the power of the eternal ruler of all movable and immovable things, he destroyed in the battle that ensued all the enemies of the gods; and because he annihilated the demon host whilst seated upon the shoulder [or the hump, Kakud] of the bull, he thence obtained the appellation Kukutstha [seated on the hump].
Bhagavata Purana adds several title to his name: that he captured the city of the Asuras, whence his name Puranjaya, ‘Victor of the city’, he is also termed Praranjaaya, ‘vanquisher of foes;’ he is also called Indravaha ‘born by Indra.’
To be contd…[next post, the version of Vayu Purana]
Full details as found in Vishnu Purana about one of the battles between the Devas and the Asuras is presented below for favour of the readers' comments with a request to identify the chronology and personages involved in the battle alongwith the region and reasons of the contest between the two parties:
1. According to Vishnu Purana, (Book IV, Part-II, p 288):
“In the Treta age a violent war broke out between the gods and the Asuras, in which the former were vanquished. They consequently had recourse to Vishnu for assistance, and propitiated him by their adorations. The eternal ruler of the universe, Narayana, had compassion upon them, and said: “What you desire is known unto me. Hear how your wishes shall be fulfilled. There is an illustrious prince named Puranjaya, the son of a royal sage; into his person I will infuse a portion of myself, and having descended upon earth I will in his person subdue all your enemies. Do you therefore endevour to secure the aid of Puranjaya for the destruction of your foes.”
Acknowledging with reverence the kindness of the deity, the immortals quitted his presence, and repaired to Puranjaya, whom they thus addressed:
“Most renowned Kshatriya, we have come to thee to solicit thy alliance against our enemies; it will not become thee to disappoint our hope.”
The Prince replied, “Let this your Indra, the monarch of the spheres, the god of a hundred sacrifices, consent to carry me upon his shoulders, and I will wage battle with your adversaries as your ally.” The gods and Indra readily answered, “So be it;” and the latter assuming the shape of a bull, the Prince mounted upon his shoulder.
Being then filled with delight, and invigorated by the power of the eternal ruler of all movable and immovable things, he destroyed in the battle that ensued all the enemies of the gods; and because he annihilated the demon host whilst seated upon the shoulder [or the hump, Kakud] of the bull, he thence obtained the appellation Kukutstha [seated on the hump].
Bhagavata Purana adds several title to his name: that he captured the city of the Asuras, whence his name Puranjaya, ‘Victor of the city’, he is also termed Praranjaaya, ‘vanquisher of foes;’ he is also called Indravaha ‘born by Indra.’
To be contd…[next post, the version of Vayu Purana]
Dost,
Yeh kya guthi hai jara vistaar se prakash dalenge ki Iran aur Arya Ek hain aur aisa hone ka aap kya karan mante hain !
Dhanyavaad !!
Agar aap is link ko dekhen, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran , to yeh likha hai:
[The name "Iran", which in Persian means "Land of the Aryans", has been in native use since the Sassanian era, in antiquity.]
narenderkharb
Active member
Agar Arya shabd bure vyakti ke liye prayog kiya hota to yeh apne desh ka naam Iran kyon rakhte? Iran shabd Aryan se hi bana hai.
Ranbir bhai, Ravindejeet ki post main Aryon ka matlab Devon se tha .
Parsion ne dev ko bure ke sathan pe paryog kiya.Parsi bhi apane ko Asur Arya manate the or central asian ko Dev arya.Indians ko vo arya nahi manate the.