Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[narenderkharb]

Indo-Aryan and Indo-Iranians, both groups lived in the earliest known times in the Central Asia; and, in due course of time with the increase in their population and tussle for leadership gradually developed and it later on assumed the form of battles which has found place in the traditions of the Aryans of the yore.

The Vedic Aryans/earlier known as Devas and Dasyus/Daitya/Danava Aryans belonged to the same stock of old Central Family of Aryas whose common head of progeny or Prajapati was 'Kashyapa'.

He is said to have married several daughters of Daksha Prajpati. Aditi became the mother of the Adityas, who in later ages came to be regarded as the true gods by the Vedic Aryans. The descendants of the two other wives of the Prajapati Kashyapa were:

Daityas are born of Diti, and Danavas were born from Danu, the two wives of the Kashyapa, Both the Daityas and the Danavas have together been coupled as 'Asuras' too in the literary traditions.

Therefore, it is wrong to say that either Divodas or Shamber was non Aryan.

Reality if Deva-Asura Yudhas happened between two groups of the Aryans and the earlier rulers Asuras were made to retreat several times from their earliest possessions and ultimately forced to cross over to Afghanistan and then proceed towards Indus Valley region where they laid foundation to one of the oldest civilisations of the world known as Harappan civilisation. Thus the founders of this civilisation were the descendants of Diti and Danu.

The coming of Devas in subsequent times resulted in pitched battles between the Vedic Aryans and Harappan aryans which has been alluded to in various old bookls including Rigveda.

These historic clues and data have to be examined with an objective study in mind if we are really interested to come out of the historic cob web of the yore

Rajpal ji


Here we are entering in to finer details of aryan saga where I don't agree with Mishra ji in his observation.

It was not like Asura or Daitya came earlier and settled here ...It was an earlier Caucasian race( racial brothers of later vedic people)that came and settled in India represented by Nagas etc....Differentiation between Asura and Deva was on eastern Iranian lands and more symbolic in nature .It can be broadly attributed to divison among rishi families (mainly due to rivalery and animoisty among them) later Zarathustra provided moral framework to it .

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Continuing his discussion on the issue, Dr. Misra [p. 64] states: " Another Devasura War is named TaraKamaya which was due to Soma eloping with (Tara) the wife of Brihaspati, a priest of the Angirasa clan and the preceptor of the Devas. In the course of this was Virochana was killed by Indra and his son Bali had to migrate to another Patla, which is presumably Bacteria, also called Bali-Alaya or Bali-Sadma. Bali was perhaps the most illustrous or Asura rulers and fought many a war with the Devas with varying fortunes. Perhaps the most important of the wars was the once connected with Samudra-manthana or the churning of the Ksirasagaara."

The scholars have over the centuries undertaken studies on the incident/event of Deva-Asura Samudra-manthan [churning of the sea] with interest and flair for finding out the truth of the historic clues underlying this very important tradition recorded in the pages of so many ancient books.

The place of the event has been identified by some of the scholars with Caspian Sea, through which trade passed between India and China in the east and the lands bordering the Mediterranean Sea on the West. ''It may be that the control of this sea-route was the immediate cause of the renewed hostilities. In this war also the Asuras were beaten, but they recovered soon to challenge the Devas. It seems that it was not by force of arms but b trickery practised upon Bali by Vamana, that the Asuras were forced out of Bacteria to migrate to another Patala, situated in the Valley of the Indus."

These events described as Deva-Asura Battles engulfed the area extending from Central Asia to the sub-continent of India. The Devas seem to have succeeded in pushing the Asuras from Central Asian common home of the Devas and Asuras "constantly towards the south and south-east and the theaters of wars came to be spread over Eastern Iran, Afghanistan, Baluchistan and India." Jaiminiya Brahmana (1.154) testifies that "the Devas, Pitrs and men were on one side and the Asuras, Pisachas and Rakshasas on the other side."

 

[narenderkharb]

आवदिन्द्रं यमुना तृत्सवश्च प्रात्र भेदं सर्वताता मुषायत् । अजासश्च शिग्रवो यक्षवश्च बलिं शीर्षाणि जभ्रुरश्व्यानि ॥१९॥

Saraswati aur kahan thi?


</PRE>

Sari Rat ramayan suni or savere pucch rahe ho sita kis ka baap tha .Ye Harahvati river in Harhvat province of Iran hi real vedic Sarswati thi.

 

[narenderkharb]

आवदिन्द्रं यमुना तृत्सवश्च प्रात्र भेदं सर्वताता मुषायत् । अजासश्च शिग्रवो यक्षवश्च बलिं शीर्षाणि जभ्रुरश्व्यानि ॥१९॥

Saraswati aur kahan thi?

</PRE>

Iss verse ka kaya matlab samjhe aap ...Jara explain kar ke batana.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

The scholars have over the centuries undertaken studies on the incident/event of Deva-Asura Samudra-manthan [churning of the sea] with interest and flair for finding out the truth of the historic clues underlying this very important tradition recorded in the pages of so many ancient books.

The place of the event has been identified by some of the scholars with Caspian Sea, through which trade passed between India and China in the east and the lands bordering the Mediterranean Sea on the West. ''It may be that the control of this sea-route was the immediate cause of the renewed hostilities. In this war also the Asuras were beaten, but they recovered soon to challenge the Devas. It seems that it was not by force of arms but b trickery practised upon Bali by Vamana, that the Asuras were forced out of Bacteria to migrate to another Patala, situated in the Valley of the Indus."

These events described as Deva-Asura Battles engulfed the area extending from Central Asia to the sub-continent of India. The Devas seem to have succeeded in pushing the Asuras from Central Asian common home of the Devas and Asuras "constantly towards the south and south-east and the theaters of wars came to be spread over Eastern Iran, Afghanistan, Baluchistan and India." Jaiminiya Brahmana (1.154) testifies that "the Devas, Pitrs and men were on one side and the Asuras, Pisachas and Rakshasas on the other side."

Dr. Mistra quoting Taittirya Samhita states on the identification of the contesting parties reference writes :''...the word 'pitrah' stands for the subjects of Yama (Iranian Yima) and 'manusyah' for the progeny or descendants of Manu. If any doubt still remains regarding India being one of the theatres of these wars, it may be set at rest by references in the Puranas to a number of kings both the Solar and the Lunar dynasties participating in them on behalf of the Devas." [p.65]

 

[drrajpalsingh]

At this stage, we leave the Devas, Pitrs and Manusyas to play their role in their ancient abode till they once again clash against the Asuras in the Indian sub-continent.

Here, first we shall try to follow the activities of the Asuras in their new found home known as newer Patala i.e. the place in the Indus valley with the help of the study of source of information enshrined in traditions and archaeological remains spread over a vast tract of India.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Rajpal ji


Here we are entering in to finer details of aryan saga where I don't agree with Mishra ji in his observation.

It was not like Asura or Daitya came earlier and settled here ...It was an earlier Caucasian race( racial brothers of later vedic people)that came and settled in India represented by Nagas etc....Differentiation between Asura and Deva was on eastern Iranian lands and more symbolic in nature .It can be broadly attributed to divison among rishi families (mainly due to rivalery and animoisty among them) later Zarathustra provided moral framework to it .

Thanks Kharb Sahib for your post.

I have left discussion of migration of other groups to India knowingly as it will divert the attention of the participants from the question being discussed on the Aryans. Moreover, as of now, I am not fully equipped with required data on the Caucasian Race and their movement. It can be taken up subsequently.


I have produced the views of one scholar who opines that one group of the Aryans seems to have entered the Indian sub-continent after the Sagar Manthan event for discussion.
If we agree that the Aryans came to India from their original home from Central Asia in many waves, it seems plausible that at this point of time the vanquished group represented by the word 'Asura' were made to leave their hearth and homes to tread towards newer Patala i.e. Indus Valley region.

Thanks.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Thanks Kharb Sahib for your post..................................
If we agree that the Aryans came to India from their original home from Central Asia in many waves, it seems plausible that at this point of time the vanquished group represented by the word 'Asura' were made to leave their hearth and homes to tread towards newer Patala i.e. Indus Valley region.

Thanks.

On the demarcation of the original home of the Indo Aryans Dr. Buddha Prakash, Dr. D. R Bhandarkar, Arian and Kalhana's views are produced as below for favour of critical analysis of the participants in the discussion :

There is some definite "proof of the fact that the original home of the Aryans," avers Dr. Buddha Prakash (p.137), that it "extended beyond the Indus and embraced a larger part of the Iranian world...In ancient times the country, called 'Arianne', bounded on the east by the Indus, on the south by the Indian Ocean from the mouth of the Indus to the Persian gulf, and on the west by an imaginary line, drawn from the Caspian Gates to Carmania, was peopled by the Arioi, living side by side with the Drangai, as Strabo informs us."---{ D R Bhandarkar, Some Aspects of Ancient Indian Culture, p. 6]

Kalhana designates this region by the name Aryanaka where king Lalitaditya Muktapida was said to have met his death as a result of excessive snowfall. [Rajatarangini, IV.367]"

 

[romar]

Sari Rat ramayan suni or savere pucch rahe ho sita kis ka baap tha .Ye Harahvati river in Harhvat province of Iran hi real vedic Sarswati thi.

Wah! To yeh bhi batla dijiye ki kaunse san mein Aryon ne Hariana ki nadi ko saraswati naam de diya? Aur jo jamuna Rigved me hai woh kikkar Iran pahunchi? Aur Ganga bhi dikhe aapke anusaar Iran mein hi honi chaiye?

 

[romar]

Iss verse ka kaya matlab samjhe aap ...Jara explain kar ke batana.

Iska matlab pehle diya jaa chuka hai.

 

[nrao]

The scholars have over the centuries undertaken studies on the incident/event of Deva-Asura Samudra-manthan [churning of the sea] with interest and flair for finding out the truth of the historic clues underlying this very important tradition recorded in the pages of so many ancient books.

The place of the event has been identified by some of the scholars with Caspian Sea, through which trade passed between India and China in the east and the lands bordering the Mediterranean Sea on the West. ''It may be that the control of this sea-route was the immediate cause of the renewed hostilities. In this war also the Asuras were beaten, but they recovered soon to challenge the Devas. It seems that it was not by force of arms but b trickery practised upon Bali by Vamana, that the Asuras were forced out of Bacteria to migrate to another Patala, situated in the Valley of the Indus."

These events described as Deva-Asura Battles engulfed the area extending from Central Asia to the sub-continent of India. The Devas seem to have succeeded in pushing the Asuras from Central Asian common home of the Devas and Asuras "constantly towards the south and south-east and the theaters of wars came to be spread over Eastern Iran, Afghanistan, Baluchistan and India." Jaiminiya Brahmana (1.154) testifies that "the Devas, Pitrs and men were on one side and the Asuras, Pisachas and Rakshasas on the other side."

So far you have produced some ancient evidence which is pretty good in another context but not for original home as you are searching. I do not know whether you realize that these texts are much later then Rid Ved. How late, I think you have given some hints yourself.

I am sure you already know Jaiminiya Brahman is commentary on Sam Veda, which is probably the last or second last of the four Ved. For a commentary on something, first you will need to have that particular document, in this case Sam Ved. Then you need to have people examine it before putting a commentary about it, in this case Jaiminiya Brahamana. That way you may come up with some idea of how much later than Rig Ved, this text came into existence. Kindly look up the dates of this particular Brahmana.

Same with other texts. I think previously you admitted yourself that we will examine later texts and see if we can find the original home, which is what you are using for the past 2 days (Post# 499):
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=333523&viewfull=1#post333523

As I admitted earlier in this post, you have provided some very good material but unfortunately it is not convincing to proove central asia as the original home. In fact it strengthens the case of migration out of India and that is why you see all these 'familiar' words in central asia as confirmed by later texts.

As always, I do not read any dates on any of this material that you are producing. Any round about date/century or a range will be most helpful.

Btw, have you decided to give up on Bogaz koi and that area now as the original home or is that in the warmer for the time being?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

So far you have produced some ancient evidence which is pretty good in another context but not for original home as you are searching. I do not know whether you realize that these texts are much later then Rid Ved. How late, I think you have given some hints yourself.

I am sure you already know Jaiminiya Brahman is commentary on Sam Veda, which is probably the last or second last of the four Ved. For a commentary on something, first you will need to have that particular document, in this case Sam Ved. Then you need to have people examine it before putting a commentary about it, in this case Jaiminiya Brahamana. That way you may come up with some idea of how much later than Rig Ved, this text came into existence. Kindly look up the dates of this particular Brahmana.

Same with other texts. I think previously you admitted yourself that we will examine later texts and see if we can find the original home, which is what you are using for the past 2 days (Post# 499):
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=333523&viewfull=1#post333523

As I admitted earlier in this post, you have provided some very good material but unfortunately it is not convincing to proove central asia as the original home. In fact it strengthens the case of migration out of India and that is why you see all these 'familiar' words in central asia as confirmed by later texts.

As always, I do not read any dates on any of this material that you are producing. Any round about date/century or a range will be most helpful.

Btw, have you decided to give up on Bogaz koi and that area now as the original home or is that in the warmer for the time being?

Thanks Mr. Naveen Rao for your comments and questions.

As earlier committed http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=333523&viewfull=1#post333523 .I am open to learn and so are the posts by me which can be modified if some stronger evidence is provided to disprove them.

Kindly join hands to provide data to disprove them by taking one by one.

As regards Bogaz Kui, it was not the place of their origin.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Thanks Mr. Naveen Rao for your comments and questions.

As earlier committed http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=333523&viewfull=1#post333523 .I am open to learn and so are the posts by me which can be modified if some stronger evidence is provided to disprove them.

Kindly join hands to provide data to disprove them by taking one by one.

As regards Bogaz Kui, it was not the place of their origin.

Comments of the participants in the discussion are still awaited to straighten the record about original home of the Aryans and their fights as described in the Vedas and other traditions !

Comments supported by sources are welcome !

 

[romar]

Comments of the participants in the discussion are still awaited to straighten the record about original home of the Aryans and their fights as described in the Vedas and other traditions !

Comments supported by sources are welcome !

Parantu aap ab tak diye gaye tathyon ko kyon nahi maan rahe hain is vishay per kuch prakash daliyega. Aur tathya prastut karne ka kya fayeda?

Rigved mein diye gaye shloka prastut kiye ja chuke hain. Unme aisa kya hai jo abhi tak aap ke man mein sanshay bahaye hue hai?

Kya aap saraswati, jamuna aadi nadiyon ka iran mein hona maante hain?

Kya aap Puranon ko vedon se pehle likha maante hain?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Parantu aap ab tak diye gaye tathyon ko kyon nahi maan rahe hain is vishay per kuch prakash daliyega. Aur tathya prastut karne ka kya fayeda?

Rigved mein diye gaye shloka prastut kiye ja chuke hain. Unme aisa kya hai jo abhi tak aap ke man mein sanshay bahaye hue hai?

Kya aap saraswati, jamuna aadi nadiyon ka iran mein hona maante hain?

Kya aap Puranon ko vedon se pehle likha maante hain?

Friend,

I have never challenged the superiority or antiquity of the Rigveda over other literary sources for the study of the issue in hand.

What I intend to convey is that in a critical study of any topic not any single source but all relevant data available and accessible must be put to maximum use to derive plausible conclusion.

The geographical spread of the 'Aryan' people at the Vedic times has been identified which stretched from the banks of the Saraswati to Afghanistan and beyond to Central Asian countries including Iran etc. The War hymns and Daan hymns in the Rigveda too support this contention. This locale is supported by other literary traditions, archaeological and cross references with the dynasties of rulers of those times in various regions, now known as different countries.

The scene of the activities of war and peace among the people living in this vast tract of land in those years was their original abode. If this view is accepted to be historic fact, till the time some stronger and newer evidence emerges, many a problem is put to rest.

After concurrence on this locale of the Aryans is established, the issue of fixing chronological order may be taken up to understand the order of events, occurrences for placing them in historic perspective.


Thanks

 

[romar]

Friend,

I have never challenged the superiority or antiquity of the Rigveda over other literary sources for the study of the issue in hand.

Agar aisa hai to aap kripa kar ke yeh bataaiye ki Rigved ke anusaar aap Aryon ka udgam Bharat mein maante hain yaa Iran mein?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Agar aisa hai to aap kripa kar ke yeh bataaiye ki Rigved ke anusaar aap Aryon ka udgam Bharat mein maante hain yaa Iran mein?

Friend,

A study of the Rigveda makes clear the locale of the Aryans as shown in the earlier post [528] being reproduced below :

On the demarcation of the original home of the Indo Aryans Dr. Buddha Prakash, Dr. D. R Bhandarkar, Arian and Kalhana's views are produced as below for favour of critical analysis of the participants in the discussion :

There is some definite "proof of the fact that the original home of the Aryans," avers Dr. Buddha Prakash (p.137), that it "extended beyond the Indus and embraced a larger part of the Iranian world...In ancient times the country, called 'Arianne', bounded on the east by the Indus, on the south by the Indian Ocean from the mouth of the Indus to the Persian gulf, and on the west by an imaginary line, drawn from the Caspian Gates to Carmania, was peopled by the Arioi, living side by side with the Drangai, as Strabo informs us."---{ D R Bhandarkar, Some Aspects of Ancient Indian Culture, p. 6]

Kalhana designates this region by the name Aryanaka where king Lalitaditya Muktapida was said to have met his death as a result of excessive snowfall. [Rajatarangini, IV.367]"

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...History-Newer-discussions&p=334062#post334062

Thanks

 

[romar]

Friend,

A study of the Rigveda makes clear the locale of the Aryans as shown in the earlier post [528] being reproduced below :
http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...History-Newer-discussions&p=334062#post334062

Thanks

Buddha Prakash ji ne ya kisi aur ne Rigved mein se kaise yeh nishkarsh nikala hai ki Aryan log Iran mein bhi thhe? Kya iska koi pramaan milega?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Buddha Prakash ji ne ya kisi aur ne Rigved mein se kaise yeh nishkarsh nikala hai ki Aryan log Iran mein bhi thhe? Kya iska koi pramaan milega?

Read the relevant book to know the details please !

 

[drrajpalsingh]

The historical evidences enshrined in the verses of the Rigveda have been gleaned by so many scholars over the years to test their hypotheses that it is not possible for any one of us to post all of them here.

Moreover, the testimony of the Vedic literature has been compared with other historical data and then the workable results of historical events and happenings of the yore in the locale inhabited by the Aryans--both Indo-Aryans and Indo-Iranians-- have been compared and correlated.

The upshot of this type of studies shows, says Dr. Budh Prakash that "the Aryans of Iran call their homeland Eranvej or Airanam Vejo Vahhiviya Dathyaya. Vahvi is the same as Vai or Valhi and denotes the river Oxus. In ancient times the Oxus discharged into the Caspian Sea. It filled the depression of Sarykamysh, flowed through the bed of the Uzboi, south-east of the gap in the Balkhan hills, over 100 miles south-east of Kransnovodsk, and fell into the Caspian opposite the group of islands called Aghyrcha." Dr. Budh Prakash goes on to explain further that "the expression Vejo Vahviya Dathyaya signifies the lower course of the Oxus, marked by the bed of the river Uzboi, for here the river torrentially sallies forth and over-flows its bounds." [pp. 137-138]

He concludes that "it is clear that the region up to the shore of the old sea, encompassing the Caspian and the Aral, formed part of the Aryan homeland''.{p. 138}