Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

'Aryana Vaego' [ Avesta:Vendidad' Firgrid-1,] or Aryana of Vedic literature and also in later times 'Arya-Varsha' or 'Arya-Vartha' mentioned in 'Manu Sumhita' as well as 'Aryan Varshu' used in Pashto language convey the name of the ancient abode of the Aryans. These people of Iran, Afghanistan and India are considered to be from pure Aryan stock.

Here it will be useless to enter into controversy about the meaning of 'Arya' ranging between the scholars of the East and West.

It would, perhaps, suffice to say that the word 'Ara' and 'Aryan' as mentioned in Rigveda [Mandala III] [ explained by K M Panikkar and W. Geiger], has been derived from 'Ar' which in Sanskrit means race or origin, and thefrefore, the word 'Arya' meant genteel, devout and well bred. Tamddun-e-Iranian, Khavari, vol. I, page 65; exactly the same word meaning the same thing has been used in Ancient Pashto literature...The word 'vaego' or 'vaega' is also used in the present day Pashto spoken in Kandhar in the meaning of 'homeland' or 'abode' or 'habitat'.
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
'Aryana Vaego' [ Avesta:Vendidad' Firgrid-1,] or Aryana of Vedic literature and also in later times 'Arya-Varsha' or 'Arya-Vartha' mentioned in 'Manu Sumhita' as well as 'Aryan Varshu' used in Pashto language convey the name of the ancient abode of the Aryans. These people of Iran, Afghanistan and India are considered to be from pure Aryan stock.

Here it will be useless to enter into controversy about the meaning of 'Arya' ranging between the scholars of the East and West.

It would, perhaps, suffice to say that the word 'Ara' and 'Aryan' as mentioned in Rigveda [Mandala III] [ explained by K M Panikkar and W. Geiger], has been derived from 'Ar' which in Sanskrit means race or origin, and thefrefore, the word 'Arya' meant genteel, devout and well bred. Tamddun-e-Iranian, Khavari, vol. I, page 65; exactly the same word meaning the same thing has been used in Ancient Pashto literature...The word 'vaego' or 'vaega' is also used in the present day Pashto spoken in Kandhar in the meaning of 'homeland' or 'abode' or 'habitat'.
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The above mentioned ancient Aryan people, who lived in Aryana-Vaego or Aryana, dispersed to the area left of the River Oxus (Amu) or in ancient Bakhtar or Bakhdi upto the foothills of the Hindu Kush range. According to the Avesta, this occurred due to the cold climate and scarcity of food. This statement is proved to be true as one studies Vedic hymns and the Avesta.

These people of Aryan stock migrated, because of the increase in numbers and other natural factors, from their original home abode, which was a region which stretched to Bakhdi and the valleys of Northern Afghanistan and then moved towards the East and West and spread to the Indus Valley and the Punjab via the routes through the Spinghar range in the East, and to Iran and Asia Minor through Khorasan and the present day Herat in the West.

Naturally they took their language, beliefs, ideas folklore and culture with them to the East and West. These qualities of theirs resemble each other closely in as much as as the language, subjects and gods in both ancient Aryan books, namely the Avesta and Veda, have close affinities with each other. The names of their princes, gods and mythological figures also resemble.

We therefore, come to the conclusion that about 1500 B.C. the Aryans from India to Asia Minor possessed a common civilisation, culture and religion.

'For further details, see, the paper presented in the First Asian History Conference by Ahmad Ali Kohzad on the Movement of Peoples and Ideas from Prehistoric Times ......, we thankfully acknowledge the above two passages to the author.]
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
These people of Aryan stock migrated, because of the increase in numbers and other natural factors, from their original home abode, which was a region which stretched to Bakhdi and the valleys of Northern Afghanistan and then moved towards the East and West and spread to the Indus Valley and the Punjab via the routes through the Spinghar range in the East, and to Iran and Asia Minor through Khorasan and the present day Herat in the West.
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Jo shabd lal rang mein kiye gaye hain uska kya pramaan hai? Avesta mein yeh likha hai kya? Kripa kar ke reference dijieyga.

Doosra: chuki aap Iran ko in aryon ka homeland maante hain (halaki iska saboot koi nahi hai) to jara yeh bhi bata dijiye ki kaun se san/saal me yeh log Iran se uth kar bharat aaye thhe?
 
nrao said:
Yeh 6 mandal ke shlok bade hi aache udharan hain. Yeh baat sabko pata hai ki 6 mandal mein kewal 3 hi nadiyon ka varnan hai: Ganga, Yamuna aur Saraswati. Joh log Saraswati ko Afg/Iran mein pahuncha rahe hain, unhe Ganga aur Yamuna bhi Afg/Iran mein dalni hogi kyonki chathe (6) mandal ki rachna karne wale ne kewal Ganga, Yamuna aur Saraswati ka varnan kiya hai. Agar Saraswati Afg/Iran mein thi aur Ganga, Yamuna aapne vartmaan wale sthan per toh beech ki koi naadi dekhi hi nahin varna uska avashya is Mandal mein varnan hota. Aur ya phir woh rishi Ganga aur Yamuna se aank meech kar Afg/Iran wali Saraswati tak jate honge aur isi tarah se wapas bhi aate honge. Beech ki sab nadiyan gayab hain.
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Yeh aapki bahut umda shodh hai ki mandal 6 main Ganga, Yamuna aur Saraswati ka hi ullekh hai. Vastuta yeh chhetra hi Bharatiyon Aryon ka krida kshetra thha. Isi wajah se Divodas ke pitah ne Saraswati ke tat per puja kar ke putra prapti ki aur yamuna ke tat per unki aur unke ladke Divodas ki Dasyu se ladai hui.

Avesta mein kahin Divodas ke janam ka ullekh Iran main nahi hai. Lekin hamare buddhijivi Roy ka hawala dekar unhe Irani kyon bata rahe hain kuch samajh mein nahi aa raha?

Kya itne pramaan ke baad bhi insaan kisi asatya ko swikaar sakta hai?
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
Were malechhas and Yavanas kept in Aryan fold, Vedic fold or

The priestly class considered them out of the influence of the Brahamanism and declared them Malechhas/Yavanas

as outcastes/untouchables/foreigneers during the Rigvedic or later Vedic and Epic period.


Thanks.
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Malecha aur Yavana Arya nahi thhe kyonki unhone aryon ka acharan chod diya thha.
 
Romar said:
Malecha aur Yavana Arya nahi thhe kyonki unhone aryon ka acharan chod diya thha.
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It would be good if you inform us kindly as to what time line they were treated as one and as such treated as the same Aryan stock and what were their earlier relations !
 
Romar said:
Jo shabd lal rang mein kiye gaye hain uska kya pramaan hai? Avesta mein yeh likha hai kya? Kripa kar ke reference dijieyga.

Doosra: chuki aap Iran ko in aryon ka homeland maante hain (halaki iska saboot koi nahi hai) to jara yeh bhi bata dijiye ki kaun se san/saal me yeh log Iran se uth kar bharat aaye thhe?
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Friend,

The posts 701 and 702 say that earlier abode of the Aryans was;

"'Aryana Vaego' [ Avesta:Vendidad' Firgrid-1,] or Aryana of Vedic literature and also in later times 'Arya-Varsha' or 'Arya-Vartha' mentioned in 'Manu Sumhita' as well as 'Aryan Varshu' used in Pashto language convey the name of the ancient abode of the Aryans. These people of Iran, Afghanistan and India are considered to be from pure Aryan stock.''

The Aryana Vaego has already been identified in this very thread as a place other than Iran.

It seems you are in the habit of putting wrong meanings derived by you in the mouth of others.

Kindly make amendment in your negative thinking and adopt the good habit of pointing out shortcomings in the posts not in persons who hold views different than you.

I reiterate that I am still in the learning process otherwise there was no need to initiate discussion on this very important aspect of proto history of not only India but of a major segment of mankind spread over large number of countries. That is why I have been posting different points of views from different sources before the Jatland.com readers so that discussion could result in some tangible conclusion.

Thanks
 
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Regarding restoration of the 'Lost Sarasvati' attempts have been initiated from Adi Badari, 35 kms from district Hqs, Yamunanagar.

The attempt to restore the so called lost Sarasvati to a seasonal rivulet originating from the purported UDGAMA STHAN of the lost Saraswati has miserably failed to take roots.

For details log in dainikbhaskar.com

or

kindly read Dainik Bhaskar dated 3.4.2013 page 4 Ambala [Chandigarh] edition.


 
DrRajpalSingh said:
'Aryana Vaego' [ Avesta:Vendidad' Firgrid-1,] or Aryana of Vedic literature and also in later times 'Arya-Varsha' or 'Arya-Vartha' mentioned in 'Manu Sumhita' as well as 'Aryan Varshu' used in Pashto language convey the name of the ancient abode of the Aryans. These people of Iran, Afghanistan and India are considered to be from pure Aryan stock.

Here it will be useless to enter into controversy about the meaning of 'Arya' ranging between the scholars of the East and West.

It would, perhaps, suffice to say that the word 'Ara' and 'Aryan' as mentioned in Rigveda [Mandala III] [ explained by K M Panikkar and W. Geiger], has been derived from 'Ar' which in Sanskrit means race or origin, and thefrefore, the word 'Arya' meant genteel, devout and well bred. Tamddun-e-Iranian, Khavari, vol. I, page 65; exactly the same word meaning the same thing has been used in Ancient Pashto literature...The word 'vaego' or 'vaega' is also used in the present day Pashto spoken in Kandhar in the meaning of 'homeland' or 'abode' or 'habitat'.
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The above stated facts mentioned in the quotation are good but we need to see the time and context of the connection of these ancient tribes to the present day people. There has been a lot of upheaval and changes from the time these words were coined. Not all the tribes and people living in these areas are related to these ancient roots.

In Indian context there is a strong need for the archaeology to verify and present facts before the people in form of cities, artifacts and other items of these ancient times before it all gets lost with changing times. Here we talk of Delhi as "Indraprastha", or "home of thunder god Indra" and talk about times going back to 4000 BC or even earlier but there is hardly any archaeological dig in any of the above mentioned fact. This is just one such instance of such a fact. In Iran there are reminents of cities that date back to BC era. An interesting page to read :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples#History_and_settlement
 
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maddhan1979 said:
The above stated facts mentioned in the quotation are good but we need to see the time and context of the connection of these ancient tribes to the present day people. There has been a lot of upheaval and changes from the time these words were coined. Not all the tribes and people living in these areas are related to these ancient roots.
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Friend,

Regarding the need of starting a debate on important clues on date line of the history of India and identification of various royal dynasty names opportunity had been provided long ago in a post on this thread, post is reproduced hereinunder for ready view of the readers:

DrRajpalSingh said:
While working out a chronological framework of Indian Protohistory, S.B. Roy has stated that Manu Vaisasvata [D.N. 1] was born in 3167 B.c.; Raghu [D.N. 62] born in 2069; Divodasa [DN 63]; Aja Shambaa, Ibbisin;Emissum [all contemporaries] : One hundred years Dev-Asura war begins. [page.63];

He goes on to add that Dasaratha, Ravana II and Indrota were contemporaries and so were Rama and Soma. The significance of this period 2033 B.C. to c.2000 B.C. lies in the fact that Rakshasa empire fell at that time.

Under Dynasty No. 66 [1997 B.C.] Srinjaya; Hushrava;and, D.N. 67 Chyavana [1979 B.C.] fierce battle continued leading to fall of Danavas. Other important feature of the period is the contemporary appearance of the names of Shaktiand Prashara Vashisthas, Kaksshivan Ausija; Zarathustra.

D.N. 68 (1961 B C.) Sudasa II, Vistaspa, Vishwamitra IV appear and Dasa Rajana battle is contested.
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[For details, read, S.B. Roy, Vedic Chronology, Journal of the Andhra Research Society, Hyderabad, Vol. XXXIII, pp.75-81.

And S.B. Roy, Chronological infrastructure of the Indian Protohistory, Journal of the Bihar Research Society, Vol. LVIII, pp.44-78.

S. B. Roy, Ancient India, A Chronological Study, Institute of Chronology, Delhi.]

It is for the scholars either to accept this identification of chronological framework of Middle Vedic Age in Indian Protohistory i.e. D.N. 64 to D.N. 68 or to come out with more plausible alternate to it.
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This hypothesis of S B Roy can be a good starting point to re-analyse the chronology of ancient Indian History. Therefore, contribution of the readers to analyse this date line are invited.

Thanks
 
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DrRajpalSingh said:
Friend,

Regarding the need of starting a debate on important clues on date line of the history of India and identification of various royal dynasty names opportunity had been provided long ago in a post on this thread, post is reproduced hereinunder for ready view of the readers:



This hypothesis of S B Roy can be a good starting point to re-analyse the chronology of ancient Indian History. Therefore, contribution of the readers to analyse this date line are invited.

Thanks
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अहा फिर वही लाडला प्यारा देव-असुर सन्ग्राम।

Secondly, are you going to be loyal to Roy on the duration of this battle, ie 100 years or you are going to stay with what you told all of us here (#155):

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=329287&viewfull=1#post329287

"No one can say with certainty about the exact period of lasting of these battles as one thousand years or 999 years or 1001 years. That is to say the total period of their clashes as comes to light on the basis of the study of different sources approximates to a thousand years."

It is becoming more and more clear now that you have more faith in what Roy wrote rather what you yourself wrote. That needs to be cleared up.
 
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rajpal ji, I went through a book having soem references of archeologist/historian Mr. lal (book name was perhaps "legend of ram revisited") and soem western historians.. that book puts mahabharat before ramayan period, mahabharat (around 800 BC and ramayan around 650 BC). That book uses lot of references from mahabharat/upanishad, ramayan to prove the claim. As it is a tedious job first to obtain and then going through the original books referenced there but many things in that book made sense. So now the question is how a layman can rely on some Roy or Lal to analyze the chronology history. Donj't you think he will be biased while going through one book. So I think until some one has original version of all the vedas, upanishads, ramayana, mahabharat, purans etc and very good knowledge of sanskrit, having a insight of archeology, geology, DNAs , he/she has nothing big to found from the store of RESEARCH...a very dedicated and honest effort with intellect..hardly few people have got the gutts so....enjoy the swing :)
 
nrao said:
अहा फिर वही लाडला प्यारा देव-असुर सन्ग्राम। इसकि शिक्षा अभी बची है। इस पर चरचा करने से पहले यह बता दो कि आपका सरस्वती अफ़/इरान मे थी वाला भूत अभी निकला कि नही?

Secondly, are you going to be loyal to Roy on the duration of this battle, ie 100 years or you are going to stay with what you told all of us here (#155):

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=329287&viewfull=1#post329287

"No one can say with certainty about the exact period of lasting of these battles as one thousand years or 999 years or 1001 years. That is to say the total period of their clashes as comes to light on the basis of the study of different sources approximates to a thousand years."

It is becoming more and more clear now that you have more faith in what Roy wrote rather what you yourself wrote. That needs to be cleared up.
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rao ji..neither you nor rajpal ji have given substantial evidences that sarswati was in india or iran..the matter itself is quite controvertial..various historians/archeologists have given their own views. So BHOOT TO AAPKO BHI CHADHA HUA HAI...SACHHI.. :)
 
prashantacmet said:
rajpal ji, I went through a book having soem references of archeologist/historian Mr. lal (book name was perhaps "legend of ram revisited") and soem western historians.. that book puts mahabharat before ramayan period, mahabharat (around 800 BC and ramayan around 650 BC). That book uses lot of references from mahabharat/upanishad, ramayan to prove the claim. As it is a tedious job first to obtain and then going through the original books referenced there but many things in that book made sense. So now the question is how a layman can rely on some Roy or Lal to analyze the chronology history. Donj't you think he will be biased while going through one book. So I think until some one has original version of all the vedas, upanishads, ramayana, mahabharat, purans etc and very good knowledge of sanskrit, having a insight of archeology, geology, DNAs , he/she has nothing big to found from the store of RESEARCH...a very dedicated and honest effort with intellect..hardly few people have got the gutts so....enjoy the swing :)
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Good goal. Aab shooro hoh ja, to me you strike like that one person who can achieve that. Get off the swing, get to work.
 
nrao said:
Good goal. Aab shooro hoh ja, to me you strike like that one person who can achieve that. Get off the swing, get to work.
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...2-4 shlok, 5-7 link aur ek-aadh book padh ke aur bahas karke khamma-kha hawai kilee banan tai reserach ni homti..aur iss Jatland pe ghankhare issi category aale historian hai..saachi baat to yaa hai.... :) aur sahi mai kuch research karan ke liye itna hi dam chaiye jitna maine upper lika hai..na to khamma-kha thook bilote raho...... :)
 
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Wikipedia tells us - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraswati_river

The identification of the Vedic Sarasvati River with the Ghaggar-Hakra River was accepted by a number of scholars already in the 19th and early 20th century, including Christian Lassen,[1] Max Müller,[2] Marc Aurel Stein, C.F. Oldham[3] and Jane Macintosh,[4] while some more recent Vedic scholars (e.g. Kochhar 1999) believe the Helmand River of southern Afghanistan corresponds to the Sarasvati River.[5]

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Ref

1.^ Indische Alterthumskunde

2.^ Sacred Books of the East, 32, 60

3.^ Oldham 1893 pp.51–52

4.^ The ancient Indus Valley:new perspectives By Jane McIntosh

5.^ Kochhar, Rajesh, 'On the identity and chronology of the Ṛgvedic river Sarasvatī' in Archaeology and Language III; Artefacts, languages and texts, Routledge (1999), ISBN 0-415-10054-2.
 
nrao said:
अहा फिर वही लाडला प्यारा देव-असुर सन्ग्राम। इसकि शिक्षा अभी बची है। इस पर चरचा करने से पहले यह बता दो कि आपका सरस्वती अफ़/इरान मे थी वाला भूत अभी निकला कि नही?

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Friend,

Have you started in believing 'Bhoots' in this age of scientific developments and thinking !

Really speaking it shows that you have lost the basics of decency in discussion as the language expected in scholarly discussion is missing in this post.

Taunting words will take us no where near the solution of the problem being discussed. For complete information on 'Saraswati' named rivers [and goddesses too] in various parts of Indian subcontinent and Iran read some good literature and then post your reasoned views based on some quotation. None would agree to your claim that one and only one Sarasvati existed in the Universe; and coincidentally that too stands dried up.

Thanks.
 
nrao said:
Secondly, are you going to be loyal to Roy on the duration of this battle, ie 100 years or you are going to stay with what you told all of us here (#155):

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...er-discussions&p=329287&viewfull=1#post329287

"No one can say with certainty about the exact period of lasting of these battles as one thousand years or 999 years or 1001 years. That is to say the total period of their clashes as comes to light on the basis of the study of different sources approximates to a thousand years."

It is becoming more and more clear now that you have more faith in what Roy wrote rather what you yourself wrote. That needs to be cleared up.
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Yes is the shortest answer to you question.

!In Indian Traditions as recorded in literature, Devasura wars were contested at different time spans. For example, Leaving aside Indra led forces at many a time, it is found that in satyug Harishchandra, in Treta Vishnu and Dashraatha and Rama, and also Divodasa and his successors are said to have killed their opponent Danavas/Rakshasas.

Either you have not read my posts attentively or have knowingly tried to align me with one group or the other for the reasons best known to you.

Nether Roy nor I have committed wrong on the issue.

So far Roy's 100 year span of Devasura battle deals with only the dynasty of Divodasa and does not represent all the Aryan Devata led expeditions. Undoubtedly this long list of Deva generalisamo belonged to the same period of History and thus differnce in their dynastic date line suggests long drawn battles.

I stand by my statement so long as real, not imaginary, shortcoming is brought to notice. And so long none has done so.

Thanks
 
Since no alternative chronological evidence has been put forward by the pratognists of the indigeneous origin of the Aryans or the opponents of that theory, it seems it is workable as it has succeeded in providing cross contact with four contemporary rulers in c 2000-1970 B C which brings the date of the last known battle between the Devas and Asuras around 1900 B C.

Even now it is time to contradict or accept it so that fixation of the other very important date of the history of India i.e. the occurrence of Bharata/Mahabharata War could be examined thread bare under the separate thread which has been started to treat that problem at :

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showt...nology-of-Epic-Mahabharata-and-Bharata-Battle
 
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