Chinese Troops Recent Incursion in Ladakh

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drrajpalsingh

New member
Violating on April 2005 pact signed between India and China, the Chinese troops pitched a tent around 8 kms inside the LAC in an area referred to as Raki Nallah in northern Ladakh on April 15, 2013 and their reluctance to move back, has led to Indian authorities to take stock of the security arrangements of the Indian borders. The last such intrusion in Arunachal sector in 1986 had led to stand off and consequent military posturing between the two countries.

Though there is no need of panic as the transgression by China is not new but their pitching of a tent in Indian territory leads one to see this incursion as disturbing one, yet extra efforts at diplomatic level and vigil on the borders is needed to sort out the issue at the earliest possible.

It is hoped that India would stay persistent and persevering in ensuring that the Chinese troops withdraw from the DBO border .

For further details to understand the full implications of the chinese see page 1 and 11 alongwith editorial 'A disturbing incursion--Transgression by China not new' in the Tribune dated 24 April, 2013 Chandigaarh or log :www.tribuneindia.com
 
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overthrow the present govt is the only solution left. i m fed up with this drama of democracy.. they said democracy is for the people but reality is something else.. they sold this nation to hypocrites and lairs. unfortunately it was our mistake, we choose them. we are failed to provide a good governance. we need a proper and compact constitution with less complexity.. we need new laws to prevent criminals from running election, abolish reservation. a fair constitution with less loopholes. change in judiciary, check on population.. it's not too late we need to start from the core, from the basics.
 
The government of India is taking steps to defuse the tense situation on the borders which has arisen due to unwarranted intrusion of the Chinese Army and then violation of borders by Chinese helicopters.

It is expected that peaceful settlement of the issue would be arrived at as hoped by the government spokespersons.
 
The intrusion problem remains unresolved.

It is reported that in view of continued defiance of the Chinese intruders, Indian External Affairs Minister is going to take up the matter with the Chinese leadership in his proposed visit in May to solve the problem amicably.
 
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Its a tricky situation, actually. The border is not notified and that is why its called Line of Actual Control. Though I believe many ex-servicemen JL members can share more info, I understand the Indo-Sino border in Ladakh and in Sikim/AP to be very poorly marked due to a) the reason mentioned above and b) the inhospitable terrain. I have visited army friends and cousins in both Ladakh and Sikkim (a month back) and have seen at first hand the difficulty in guarding or marking the boundaries. In fact one of the highlights of my visit to Sikkim was the memorable time spent with the jawans of the Jat Regiment posted close to the border in North Sikkim. More on that sometime later.

But the point here is that since the border is poorly marked and not an official international border and is in difficult terrain, it is very hard to verify which area belongs to whom. Quite often advance patrols get lost due to heavy snow and end up in each other's territory. There are no fences and certainly no posts sometimes for kms. So my initial assumption is that this is a Chinese advance patrol which encamped in India's territory by mistake. At the same time 18kms inside Indian territory hardly seems like a mistake and it could be another Chinese tactic to test India's response, military preparedness or simply keep us on our toes. Whatever it is, most experts agree that China isnt looking for a conflict. This is also borne out by the fact that at least in Ladakh and Sikkim, Chinese garrisons are almost 30-40 kms away from the LAC, whereas ours like the Jat Regiment one I saw in North Sikkim are much closer - 10-15 kms away. So if I am looking for a fight, I will have my troops closer to the border.

In any case, lets hope the matter gets resolved sooner rather than later. As opposed to what the jingoistic media often projects, the Indian and Chinese border forces aren't on bad terms. There are regular flag meetings and relations have mostly been amicable apart from one or two incidents 20-30 years ago. In fact Nathu La in East Sikkim was recently opened up for trade and from what I hear the Chinese copy NorthFace winter jackets and quilts sell well. As do our Ghee, Refined oil and other items.
 
swaich said:
Its a tricky situation, actually. The border is not notified and that is why its called Line of Actual Control. Though I believe many ex-servicemen JL members can share more info, I understand the Indo-Sino border in Ladakh and in Sikim/AP to be very poorly marked due to a) the reason mentioned above and b) the inhospitable terrain. I have visited army friends and cousins in both Ladakh and Sikkim (a month back) and have seen at first hand the difficulty in guarding or marking the boundaries. In fact one of the highlights of my visit to Sikkim was the memorable time spent with the jawans of the Jat Regiment posted close to the border in North Sikkim. More on that sometime later.

But the point here is that since the border is poorly marked and not an official international border and is in difficult terrain, it is very hard to verify which area belongs to whom. Quite often advance patrols get lost due to heavy snow and end up in each other's territory. There are no fences and certainly no posts sometimes for kms. So my initial assumption is that this is a Chinese advance patrol which encamped in India's territory by mistake. At the same time 18kms inside Indian territory hardly seems like a mistake and it could be another Chinese tactic to test India's response, military preparedness or simply keep us on our toes. Whatever it is, most experts agree that China isnt looking for a conflict. This is also borne out by the fact that at least in Ladakh and Sikkim, Chinese garrisons are almost 30-40 kms away from the LAC, whereas ours like the Jat Regiment one I saw in North Sikkim are much closer - 10-15 kms away. So if I am looking for a fight, I will have my troops closer to the border.

In any case, lets hope the matter gets resolved sooner rather than later. As opposed to what the jingoistic media often projects, the Indian and Chinese border forces aren't on bad terms. There are regular flag meetings and relations have mostly been amicable apart from one or two incidents 20-30 years ago. In fact Nathu La in East Sikkim was recently opened up for trade and from what I hear the Chinese copy NorthFace winter jackets and quilts sell well. As do our Ghee, Refined oil and other items.
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I believe, similar kind of border exits between Pak and India in J&K. However, what happens at that border is no secrete, Kargil was a classic example.
 
desijat said:
A very brilliant discussion by Ajay Shukla on the topic: http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-right-centre/standoff-with-china-is-india-too-soft/272492?hp
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Mr Ajay Shukla say in this discussion that reaching the intrusion area "Daulat Beg" is an impossible task by the Indian [FONT=arial, verdana, sans-serif, FreeSans]defense[/FONT] forces while Mr Shankar R Chowdhury says we already have a unit there.
Wondering what made talking anything without knowing the facts and reasons, a brilliant discussion for you?
 
Arvindc said:
Mr Ajay Shukla say in this discussion that reaching the intrusion area "Daulat Beg" is an impossible task by the Indian [FONT=arial, verdana, sans-serif, FreeSans]defense[/FONT] forces while Mr Shankar R Chowdhury says we already have a unit there.
Wondering what made talking anything without knowing the facts and reasons, a brilliant discussion for you?
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I am not sure how you cant interpret a simple discussion like this:

Ajay Shukla proved Gen Chowdhary's claim wrong of having direct access and he said tough not Impossible, Gen said Chinese can have direct access to Kargil to which he refuted simply. He said we still do not have a direct access to Daulat Beg Oldi which is a fact, the air strip there is functional only when weather permits, roads are still not built and if you read any media report my friend you will find India built its presence only now after Chinese came in. And yes- General Chowdhary did not counter Ajay's statement, he said Ajay is Right when he says the access is tough... this is clear discussion wonder what cant you hear. Then General Chowdhary goes on to say we should build our presence in the region, which clearly is a contradiction to what you heard that he said we have units there.... I think your speaker is playing up and making you hear stuff which they are not even saying

Arvind, a personal note to you: I have often seen you object to people and not the points, this is not a very encouraging habit for discussions.
 
Swaich already pointed out key things on this topic. In addition to that I feel that we have others problems as well. We do not have good diplomats to deal with key issues like border disputes etc. Our foreign services need an overhaul. Today, we cannot even deal properly with minnows like Maldives. Today our foreign services have bureaucrats not the diplomats. The strength of diplomats is very less. We have about 600 officers in foreign services comparing US which has 15,000 officers. UK has about 1,900 diplomats. Also the recruitment of foreign services needs an overhaul otherwise we will end up in addding bureaucrats only. Shashi Tharoor already pointed out this problem and has come up with very innovative solution to this problem. You can read about it here(http://tharoor.in/articles/external-aptitude/).

Also reforms are must in powerful bureaucracy in central secretariat. Army follows their orders and at times cannot make decison on its own. That does not mean that bureaucrats in central secretariat should stop intervening. Slow decison making and policy paralysis adds into bigger problems.
 
Diplomats are puppets in India. They are now waiting for Chinese minister to come to India in MAY and raise their objection. What crap?
When you fear China so much, why don't you increase your military capacity/competency? Why you still rely on enthusiasm alone?
They intrude because they know the leadership at top is impotent in India!
 
malikdeepak1 said:
Diplomats are puppets in India. They are now waiting for Chinese minister to come to India in MAY and raise their objection. What crap?
When you fear China so much, why don't you increase your military capacity/competency? Why you still rely on enthusiasm alone?
They intrude because they know the leadership at top is impotent in India!
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Deepak bro,

Diplomats are not puppets. Actually they drive nation's strategy towards other countries. We lack strategic direction. Countries like US, Uk are very proactive in their approach. Their diplomats, bureaucrats works very proactively. They shape the strategies for the country and advise politicians to make decisons accordingly. Whereas our think tank lacks strategic direction. We have always been reactive. As far as our Army strength is concerned, we are the fourth largest military power in the world. We are the biggest importers of arms(More than double of China's imports).

The main problem we run into eventually is we lack proactiveness. We don't have professionlism. That is because we don't have right people in bureaucracy who can come up with right direction.

Bottom line is without changing this arrogant, ineffective bureaucray, India will continue to suffer in future. Does not matter how much we spend on arms and army. It will be of no use if its not put in the right direction!
 
If anybody interested, a very good article was published last month on The Economist.

India as a great power

Know your own strength


http://www.economist.com/news/brief...me-one-four-largest-military-powers-world-end

Bottom line(Excerpt from the article)

China’s confidence in its new military power is unnerving to India. But if a condescending China in its pomp is galling, one in economic trouble or political turmoil and pandering to xenophobic popular opinion would be worse. Japan and South Korea have the reassurance of formal alliances with America. India does not. It is building new relationships with its neighbours to the east through military co-operation and trade deals. But it is reluctant to form or join more robust institutional security frameworks.

Instead of clear strategic thinking, India shuffles along, impeded by its caution and bureaucratic inertia. The symbol of these failings is India’s reluctance to reform a defence-industrial base that wastes huge amounts of money, supplies the armed forces with substandard kit and leaves the country dependent on foreigners for military modernisation.


Since independence India has got away with having a weak strategic culture. Its undersized military ambitions have kept it out of most scrapes and allowed it to concentrate on other things instead. But as China bulks up, India’s strategic shortcomings are becoming a liability. And they are an obstacle to India’s dreams of becoming a true 21st-century power.
 
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vicky84 said:
Deepak bro,

Diplomats are not puppets. Actually they drive nation's strategy towards other countries. We lack strategic direction. Countries like US, Uk are very proactive in their approach. Their diplomats, bureaucrats works very proactively. They shape the strategies for the country and advise politicians to make decisons accordingly. Whereas our think tank lacks strategic direction. We have always been reactive. As far as our Army strength is concerned, we are the fourth largest military power in the world. We are the biggest importers of arms(More than double of China's imports).

The main problem we run into eventually is we lack proactiveness. We don't have professionlism. That is because we don't have right people in bureaucracy who can come up with right direction.

Bottom line is without changing this arrogant, ineffective bureaucray, India will continue to suffer in future. Does not matter how much we spend on arms and army. It will be of no use if its not put in the right direction!
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Bhai Vicky, I completely agree with you except puppet part. IFS are ruled by ministers sitting in parliament. They follow the directions that are passed on to them by ministry. If they don't, they are called back. They are a major link to maintain relations between tow countries, but how much freedom do they have? They can't even speak to the ministry from other nation without an approval from our ministry. As you rightly pointed, bureaucray is the culprit behind the inaction of everything in India.

Crux is, we lack sense of nationalism in ourselves except war. :(
 
malikdeepak1 said:
IFS are ruled by ministers sitting in parliament. They follow the directions that are passed on to them by ministry. :(
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You are entirely wrong here, ask a minister or bureaucrat, it is bureaucracy that runs ministers not otherwise. Ministers are responsible, and they do take stand but each of their decision is highly or entirely dependent on senior bureaucrats.

And crux on this issue is- there is too much of unwanted nationalism on such an issue which has to be solved diplomatically. It takes nothing for you sitting in your room to say we should build army in the region or rage a way, problem is you know nothing about ground realities.
 
desijat said:
I am not sure how you cant interpret a simple discussion like this:

Ajay Shukla proved Gen Chowdhary's claim wrong of having direct access and he said tough not Impossible, Gen said Chinese can have direct access to Kargil to which he refuted simply. He said we still do not have a direct access to Daulat Beg Oldi which is a fact, the air strip there is functional only when weather permits, roads are still not built and if you read any media report my friend you will find India built its presence only now after Chinese came in. And yes- General Chowdhary did not counter Ajay's statement, he said Ajay is Right when he says the access is tough... this is clear discussion wonder what cant you hear. Then General Chowdhary goes on to say we should build our presence in the region, which clearly is a contradiction to what you heard that he said we have units there.... I think your speaker is playing up and making you hear stuff which they are not even saying

Arvind, a personal note to you: I have often seen you object to people and not the points, this is not a very encouraging habit for discussions.
Click to expand...

I am sure the "political party" was not able to bribe the speakers nor was it able to fear them with cbi. It might be a case that the speakers have got infested with virus and are makeing it up, :-) however, this is what they a playing out at durations 10:25 and 16:15 of the clip. :-(
 
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desijat said:
You are entirely wrong here, ask a minister or bureaucrat, it is bureaucracy that runs ministers not otherwise. Ministers are responsible, and they do take stand but each of their decision is highly or entirely dependent on senior bureaucrats.

And crux on this issue is- there is too much of unwanted nationalism on such an issue which has to be solved diplomatically. It takes nothing for you sitting in your room to say we should build army in the region or rage a way, problem is you know nothing about ground realities.
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I dont want to pity you, but alas!

Fact is actually reverse as what you stated. I always talk things based on ground realities. Ministers are surrounded by IAS/IFS to make their decisions, but they make decisions what suits them politically well. They dont take each and every thing from their reportees. Isliye IAS hamesha rote hai ki ek angootha chaap humare upar hukum chalaata hai.

I did not say that we should attack China immediately. Did you see it somewhere in post? help me to locate it please. All I said was that we need to increase our arm strength and level of competency instead of eating everything thru corruption. And I know I am asking too much here from current impotent govt :)
 
desijat said:
And crux on this issue is- there is too much of unwanted nationalism on such an issue which has to be solved diplomatically. It takes nothing for you sitting in your room to say we should build army in the region or rage a way, problem is you know nothing about ground realities.
Click to expand...
Mr. Cabinet Secretary, why is nationalism unwanted here? Tell me what else warrants nationalism? Agar vo chinkey apne aale 2-3 sainika ki naad kaat jaate fer karna chahiye tha drama?
China knows well and truly about weak leadership in India which is why they do this often. Sometimes in Arunachal sometimes in up north. Why doesn't China hassles Japan for Senkaku Islands? They did try but Japan responded in a similar tone, flew some fighter jets over the islands and vehemently stated that islands are integral part of Japan and any action of intrusion will be severely dealt with.
Agreed that this incident is going to diplomatically dealt with par daraane ke liye thoda gurraana bhi jaroori hai.
 
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