पी एम हो तो मोदी जैसा...........

[swaich]

Mere bhai,
2004-till date UPA hogi center me? Now come to your investigation agencies, are they not under the control of central govt? Still he comes clear, and sickulars term him a murderer, mockery of the judicial system. Bhai Knagress and other sickulars ki patloon gilli hona to swabhavik hai, pankhe Pakistan, China aur US aala ke bhi patt rhe hai...Thodi thawas rakh evrything would get clear in couple of months.

Prikshit, I don't give a damn about Congress supporters. They just raise 2002 because they need a stick to beat Modi with and are hardly serious about justice for riot victims. If they cared so much about justice they'd have put their own house in order and taken care of 1984 first.

To your point, you didn't read all that I wrote. Investigation cannot function without support of local agencies. Still, its to their credit that some were caught and punished.

 

[rathiji]

Do you know why was SIT constituted? The SC had to intervene as Modi and his establishment were hardly conducting any investigation of their own. Even after SIT was constituted, they couldn't do much as Gujarat establishment never cooperated. 2000 cases were closed by Gujarat police due to lack of evidence. After SIT's intervention, 1600 of these were reopened and inquiries were begun against mre than 50 police officers. Do you think the police were helping the rioteers on their own? They didn't know they had support from the top?

Judiciary & police doesn't work according to your perceptions.
So you agree 2002 riot was most rigorous investigated riot till date that 1600 cases were reopened ? any other example ?
Do you know how many people were killed by police bullets during riot period in 2002 ? how many majority & minority ? any other example ?
Do you know the numbers of people convicted in 2002 and how many got life imprisonment ? any other example ?

Mass support or votes is hardly an indicator of a leader being clean. Hitler to was elected to the German parliament and his supporters filed his rallies.

Modi is leader of masses after being targeted by all major political parties and investigated by judiciary then after getting clean chit going for top post, Unlike HITLER . Better read about him before drawing parallels. Indian & German political system is & was quite different.
Even if according to you MODI is equal Hitler then who is Mulayam, Rajiv Gandhi, Tarun Gagoi , Abdullas any other name you can suggest other then Hitler for them ?

Exactly, the smaller fish were caught and the big fish got a clean chit. You quote those names above and still believe they were acting alone?

I think there should be some justice for all lets at least catch smaller fishes of numerous riots happened before & after 2002 . recent example is muzzafarnagar riots no govt official or minister got even booked.

I think you have a comprehension problem as we have gone over this multiple times but it fails to register in your head. I have said multiple times, 1984 can't be compared or discussed to justify 2002. But if you think you can mention 1984 and tell me things I don't already know then you are mistaken.

Don't worry about my personality. I would like to debate with an open mind where cherry picking to justify agenda is not done all riots are same for me & more or less political establishment is responsible for it . Sometimes by negligence & sometimes instigating & abetting (1984).

 

[swaich]

Jaspreet,

I am not going to dismiss what you wrote in fact I agree to most of it. My point was that was he directly involved or not? We don't have a single proof as yet. Has he destroyed all proofs? May be but 2002 was the first riots in India where we had lot of scrutiny from media plus Congress was in the power straight after the riots and they did all they could to find direct links. Still the fact is it still cannot be proved.

I value human life more than anything. I can feel the pain of the people who has lost their loved ones. I want full accountability too and that is why said that he is still accountable as a Chief Minister. Should he be punished for that reason? Honestly I do want and that will make them more accountable but alas in the eye of Law he is not guilty. Still I want him to be punished too at least he should have resigned but why only him? Why not Gandhi Parivar ? Why not Mulayam ? Why people only talk about him? They call him murderer but what about others? This is the double standard I was referring to which people use to push their agenda.

You probably believe that he is murderer and I respect your opinion ( I know this is not your agenda and you sincerely believe what you are saying ) but brother there are lot who believes he is not. I know our legal system has lot of shortcomings like in Salman Khan case it is hanging on and on for so long that he has all the time in the world to kill witness/turn them hostile. Our legal system fail to deliver justice lot of time ,totally agree here, but it is the same legal system who has convicted people like Sanjay Dutt. In Modi's case at least there wasn't that kind of delay. While accepting all the shortcomings in legal system I still have faith in it.

You make a lot of sense, Vir bhai. But allow me to be distrustful of the system - judiciary, elected reps, police etc as I have seen a lot of suffering at the hands of the system. So for me it doesn't end if the system found Modi not guilty. The chapter doesn't close for me because I know the system has imperfections and can be subverted. That's always been the case with every system

I also understand when comparisons are made. Muslim or minority life isn't anymore precious than Hindu life. But here's the thing - do we let one go because we let others go? Or do we first punish the others by some sequence and then come to Modi. They should all be made accountable if you ask me. They all deserve to be punished. That is what I want.

I don't harbour anything against any Modi supporter. People have opinions and we believe what we want to believe. Its futile to do so. Our choices are shaped by our experiences which keep on changing. Who know when people's opinion change?

So what do I want to do about it, you'd ask? Well I will continue to speak wherever I can - with friends, colleagues, social media etc. Because I believe if we don't speak for what we truly believe in (as you rightly understood from my post) we will do the biggest injustice to ourselves. And that's a bigger crime than anything else worth fighting for.


P.S. Just the other day I was party to a discussion with two AVPs of my org when they said Modi and NDA will spark nationalism in India due to their aggressive attitude. This from people who would run away to US if someone offered them a Green Card. I only had to mention IC 184 to end the discussion. The fact that I am still working in the same org means people are not judgmental or I'd have been branded a 'Khangressi sickular' if we were in social media.

 

[rathiji]

I only had to mention IC 184 to end the discussion.

* IC 814

would you like to specify how IC814 incident proves that BJP will not spark nationalism? Lets discuss it on Jatland as you mentioned it here.

 

[swaich]

Judiciary & police doesn't work according to your perceptions.
So you agree 2002 riot was most rigorous investigated riot till date that 1600 cases were reopened ? any other example ?
Do you know how many people were killed by police bullets during riot period in 2002 ? how many majority & minority ? any other example ?
Do you know the numbers of people convicted in 2002 and how many got life imprisonment ? any other example ?

Clearly not as rigorously as they could have been or Modi would have been behind bars. What ever justice was done was a drop in the ocean compared to the violence.

Modi is leader of masses after being targeted by all major political parties and investigated by judiciary then after getting clean chit going for top post, Unlike HITLER . Better read about him before drawing parallels. Indian & German political system is & was quite different.
Even if according to you MODI is equal Hitler then who is Mulayam, Rajiv Gandhi, Tarun Gagoi , Abdullas any other name you can suggest other then Hitler for them ?

I read Mein Kampf when I was 20 and Neisctzhe when I was 23. So I think I understand both Germany and the concept of super-men or 'loh-purush' as championed by Modi.

I think there should be some justice for all lets at least catch smaller fishes of numerous riots happened before & after 2002 . recent example is muzzafarnagar riots no govt official or minister got even booked.

Don't worry about my personality. I would like to debate with an open mind where cherry picking to justify agenda is not done all riots are same for me & more or less political establishment is responsible for it . Sometimes by negligence & sometimes instigating & abetting (1984)

All fishes should be caught. Mulayam or any other doesn't deserve to be CM if they oversaw violence.

Btw, which Abdullah? Sheikh, Farooq or Omar. In any case, if you meant the forced migration and violence against Kashmiri Pandits then Kashmir was under central rule with Jagmohan the governor, when it happened. I think you got a little carried away there. Get a grasp on things and come back later. Perhaps when you have analyzed everything individually you'd understand the folly of mixing them all up as you often do.

 

[rathiji]

Btw, which Abdullah? Sheikh, Farooq or Omar. In any case, if you meant the forced migration and violence against Kashmiri Pandits then Kashmir was under central rule with Jagmohan the governor, when it happened. I think you got a little carried away there. Get a grasp on things and come back later. Perhaps when you have analyzed everything individually you'd understand the folly of mixing them all up as you often do.

My dear friend don't get super excited any idea about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Wandhama_massacre

very light line for Mulayam & all but wrote a para for Abdullah as you thought you got point.
I am not an AVP looking for green card

 

[swaich]

* IC 814

would you like to specify how IC814 incident proves that BJP will not spark nationalism? Lets discuss it on Jatland as you mentioned it here.

I will give it a try, although I know it will hardly light a bulb.

Well what sparks nationalism better than escorting a group of terrorists and personally delivering them to freedom? Especially if one of them goes on to set up JeM. If your 'Khangress' would have done that it'd have caused such a hue and cry.

For details on how the BJP led govt buckled under pressure read Jaswant Singh's account of the events, who incidentally was expelled from BJP for praising Jinnah in his book. Re-admitted later though, but the book is still in circulation.

 

[swaich]

My dear friend don't get super excited any idea about this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Wandhama_massacre

very light line for Mulayam & all but wrote a para for Abdullah as you thought you got point.
I am not an AVP looking for green card

You are even counting the lines I write now?

And pray tell me the point of mentioning the Wandhama massacre here? Oh, I get it. Its the same game. I have to first condemn all the violence that you'd like me to condemn before talking abut Modi. Right?

 

[rathiji]

I will give it a try, although I know it will hardly light a bulb.

Well what sparks nationalism better than escorting a group of terrorists and personally delivering them to freedom? Especially if one of them goes on to set up JeM. If your 'Khangress' would have done that it'd have caused such a hue and cry.

Let me light a bulb over your head as you have mentioned Congress . Any idea about abduction of Rubaiya Saeed daughter of Mufti Mohammad saeed ? How she got freed ?

IC 814 was carrying almost 200 citizens of India but Rubiayah was alone . If you don't know read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_kidnapping_of_Rubaiya_Sayeed

 

[rathiji]

You are even counting the lines I write now?

And pray tell me the point of mentioning the Wandhama massacre here? Oh, I get it. Its the same game. I have to first condemn all the violence that you'd like me to condemn before talking abut Modi. Right?

Yes , you should condemn all the violence if you want to raise finger on anyone. It is as simple as that.

Already persecuted minority (kashmiri Pandits) were persecuted mercilessly under Abdullah's government or any more advice on which Abdullah ?

 

[atamjeet78]

@swaich...only those who are blinded by hatred(of modi) will equate the genocide of sikhs to riots of gujarat where one was ethnic cleansing while other one is spontaneous reaction b'cos burning of 60 women and kids alive. This comparison is only for those blind-fools who in their contempt now calls the supreme court powerless b'cos the SIT closure is not what they were expecting. To remind those misguided mind
"SATYEMEV JAYATE"

 

[drrajpalsingh]

@swaich...only those who are blinded by hatred(of modi) will equate the genocide of sikhs to riots of gujarat where one was ethnic cleansing while other one is spontaneous reaction b'cos burning of 60 women and kids alive. This comparison is only for those blind-fools who in their contempt now calls the supreme court powerless b'cos the SIT closure is not what they were expecting. To remind those misguided mind
"SATYEMEV JAYATE"

Would this new equation happen: BJP-NCP alliance is in offing.
To Read

Link :

http://in.news.yahoo.com/pawar-meets-modi-in-delhi--ncp-bjp-alliance-on-cards--052112606.html

 

[drrajpalsingh]

A news report : BJP Parliamentary board to take call on alliance with INLD, published in the Chandigarh Issue of Tribune on 31st January, 2014 p.02.

For full details link: www.tribuneindia.com

 

[swaich]

Let me light a bulb over your head as you have mentioned Congress . Any idea about abduction of Rubaiya Saeed daughter of Mufti Mohammad saeed ? How she got freed ?

IC 814 was carrying almost 200 citizens of India but Rubiayah was alone . If you don't know read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_kidnapping_of_Rubaiya_Sayeed

I mentioned Congress to show how warped many people's standards are.

Again, what does the Rubauya Saeed incident got to do with my point about BJP and Nationalism. Both of them released terrorists right? So they are all the same? Precisely my point.

 

[swaich]

Yes , you should condemn all the violence if you want to raise finger on anyone. It is as simple as that.

Really? You follow that high a principle?

So what should I do, list down all the incidents I condemn and then seek approval from your highness after you have reviewed the list?

Already persecuted minority (kashmiri Pandits) were persecuted mercilessly under Abdullah's government or any more advice on which Abdullah ?

How? I thought there were too few of them left in the valley after 1989 to be prosecuted further. But I am sure you know better. Do enlighten how they were further persecuted mercilessly under Abdullah. And yes do mention which Abdullah.


I am getting tired of responding to your inane references and tangential posts. I am on this thread to talk about Modi and Modi alone as I think that is what the thread is also about. Since all that I am doing with you is enlightening you, its hardly an engaging discussion for me. But there is a limit to the social service I can do.

 

[swaich]

@swaich...only those who are blinded by hatred(of modi) will equate the genocide of sikhs to riots of gujarat where one was ethnic cleansing while other one is spontaneous reaction b'cos burning of 60 women and kids alive. This comparison is only for those blind-fools who in their contempt now calls the supreme court powerless b'cos the SIT closure is not what they were expecting. To remind those misguided mind
"SATYEMEV JAYATE"

Guess what - the defenders of 1984 also classified it as a spontaneous reaction to the killing of their beloved leader. Never mind the state machinery used to massacre. Same in 2002 - defenders call it spontaneous reaction to the Godhra train burning. Never mind the planning and organized violence with state support. Jai Ho!

 

[rathiji]

I mentioned Congress to show how warped many people's standards are.

Again, what does the Rubauya Saeed incident got to do with my point about BJP and Nationalism. Both of them released terrorists right? So they are all the same? Precisely my point.

Now you have come to that extent so that it becomes easy for you to understand the difference between BJP & others. I would take this opportunity to visualize difference in ur narrow vision.

BJP freed terrorists to save lives of 200 odd citizens hijacked & kept in Taliban ruled Afghanistan supported by ISI with no diplomatic links with India. India didn't recognize Taliban government hence diplomacy failed completely. The pressure of relatives in new Delhi on NDA govt. was mounting every minute. The number of terrorist freed were 3.

Others freed 5 militants when daughter of a muslim Kashmiri politicians, tilted towards separatists ideology was kidnapped. The same happened in our country no external affairs or international diplomacy was required. Militants were free in J&K , welcomed by a huge number of crowd in our own country.

When Modi gets clean chit you blame judiciary & go to extent of terming SC powerless. Why don't you blame judiciary here which gives a lot of time to convicted terrorists before execution ? Why double standards ?

PS : - Personally speaking, I expected a better solution to IC 814 but reality only diplomats & politicians know what they were into.

 

[rathiji]

Really? You follow that high a principle?

So what should I do, list down all the incidents I condemn and then seek approval from your highness after you have reviewed the list?

Do you want to follow me ?

Comparison will be done whenever anti-Hindu brigade bring 2002 riots (where MODI got clean chit ) by neglecting all others. For Rajiv & Mulayam, there is no judiciary at all for MODI Judidciary is there but powerless.

Oh come on you use a lot of sarcasm instead of rebutting with logic. You dont need my approval , keep writing what you like and let others decide.

How? I thought there were too few of them left in the valley after 1989 to be prosecuted further. But I am sure you know better. Do enlighten how they were further persecuted mercilessly under Abdullah. And yes do mention which Abdullah.


I am getting tired of responding to your inane references and tangential posts. I am on this thread to talk about Modi and Modi alone as I think that is what the thread is also about. Since all that I am doing with you is enlightening you, its hardly an engaging discussion for me. But there is a limit to the social service I can do.

You can't say anything baseless & run away. If you target someone who got grilled for 10 years & got clean chit from Supreme court monitored agency , you should have some material in your posts. It can't be proven by saying that Police, Judiciary & all agencies are corrupt and couldn't investigate Mr. Modi. If you have something evident instead of cribbing the whole system for your loss then come again.

Swaich, I dont want to get into this but as I see your posts praising urself in knowledge n ur efforts to enlighten me. I would say lets leave it to other to decide about knowledge quotient of you as well as me. One more thing , by continuously raising fingers on 2002 riots , investigating agencies, police, judiciary, system ... are you doing social service or self service ?

 

[prikshit]

Guess what - the defenders of 1984 also classified it as a spontaneous reaction to the killing of their beloved leader. Never mind the state machinery used to massacre. Same in 2002 - defenders call it spontaneous reaction to the Godhra train burning. Never mind the planning and organized violence with state support. Jai Ho!

Swaich bhai,
Was 2002 planned per you? Don't you think this is much discussed only for one reason, that people from one community were killed in large number in those roits? Do you find any other reason to raise a hue and cry for it?
Keep 2002 aside for a moment and please let me know which all BJP ruled states had roits? And whats your take on roits which have happened in non-bjp ruled states?

PS :How everyone can be biased by their own convictions and can view the same truth differently.

 

[ssgoyat]

Guess what - the defenders of 1984 also classified it as a spontaneous reaction to the killing of their beloved leader. Never mind the state machinery used to massacre. Same in 2002 - defenders call it spontaneous reaction to the Godhra train burning. Never mind the planning and organized violence with state support. Jai Ho!

Preparators of 1984 knew why they're killing the 'innocent' leader, so do defenders (that they took revenge from the entire community, And preparators of 2002 knew why are killing 'innocent' people in train.

And my Sikh jatt friend (Signature: 'Pagdi Sambhal Jatta') is going bearish on former and bullish on later with every nerve of his body.

Bhai Pagdi sambhal !!!!