Jat - Identity and Social Status

Though Story is mythical with no supporting evidence and Deva Samhita is ascribed a late compilation but if we cross check Jat history through various ancient reference ...Story seems more closer to facts then we can ever imagine in our wildest guess.
 
Rana Saheb, still have not given link of Arabian Dictionary...... that contain a Zat word with a derogatory sense.

This is main problem....... when we start arguments in a positive way to clear the picture .. he simply refuse to answer point raised over his hypothesis
 
prashantacmet said:
By the way, I could not find which shloka says about central asia........?
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I t have carefully gone through the text quoted from the Devasamhita now. There is no reference to Central Asia here or else where in the full text.

So there is no point in quoting this text in reference to the Central Asian origin of the Jats.

On its own merit the Devasamhita is a forged text done by one Gorakh Singh in the 18/19 century. The very contents will reveal to any rational mind

that the text is designed for the gullible mind.It does not realise that history and mythology do not gel. They are two separate things. How can we employ

the mythical chracters like Shiva, Karttikeya, Virabhadra and the when intent upon ytrace the origin of ordinary human beings of this mundane world?

Iam amused to see the same record being played again and again intermitantly for the last so many years. Any body can check with the archives of our forum.
 
drssrana2003 said:
Prashant ji,

I must admit that I have studied very limited field on the present issue. I have never been a science student. I read about the DNA theory in Hukam Singh's book long back but could not make out any thing because of my own limitations. So I would not be able to say any thing about it. But a question arises in my mind that hoe relevant a theory would be today when much mongrel water has flown doen the ganges of cmilleniums.Let us not shy away from the fact that present day Jats are known to be very liberal as bride takers as they have been very rigig as bride givers, Therefore I would be hesitant in pursuing the genetic way to trace the hoary past of our people.
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Rana Saheb

No body can understand Jat History without understanding basic Jat genetics.

Regarding your view about bride giving and taking you are mistaken as these studies are based on Y haplogroup studies .

All your hypothesis is just based on some false notions ...

1 No mention of Jat word in ancient sources.
2 Jat coming out of Arabian word Zat ...which is quite amusing as you have consulted no primary source.

When you say word Jat was already known to Arabs in a derogatory sense ..I just ask where is the proof ?
 
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Regarding Jat Federation, Devasanhita and Central Asian

Regarding above queries Kindly go through Bhim Singh Dahiya's book Jats the Ancient Rulers. We have on Jatland at -

http://www.jatland.com/home/Jats_the_Ancient_Rulers_(A_clan_study)/The_Jats

I reproduce relavant content from the book:

Page - 18:

In all these ideas, that of the Ashtadhyayi grammar seems to be nearest to acceptable truth. This is supported by the fact that almost all these tribes (scattered forces) were professional warriors, and many of them were given the epithet of Vratya, i.e. foreigners. Whatever the origin of the word, there was definitely a Jat federation of ruling clans, during the time of Panini, Patanjali, etc. That is why, practically all the ancient Indian ruling families were from this race. The Mandas, Mauryas (Mores), the Pauras (Pors), the Kangs, the Variks, the Balhara, the Kasvans the Dharans, etc. were all from this Jat federation. When the Puranas say that there were seven Abhiras, (Ahirs), ten Gardhabas (Khars), sixteen or eighteen Saka (Kangs), fourteen Tusharas (Tukhars or Tusirs), thirteen Mandas, eleven Maunas (Maans) and eleven Puras (Pors)all ruling India for about 1,300 years, they are merely mentioning the various Jat clans.


Devasamhita - But something must have happened in the 6th or 7th century A.D., during the course of the revival of the orthodox Brahmanism, which made these people persona non grata with the new orthodoxy. That is why, when the Puranas were revised, their historical details and even their names were removed therefrom. It is perhaps to this state of affairs that Devasamhita refers, when it records that, "nobody has published the truth about the origin and activities of the Jat race. These Jats are most powerful, extremely brave and fierce fighters. These people are like the gods in their firm vows; and among all the Kshatriyas, these Jats were the first rulers of the earth. These people were born from the daughters of Daksha Prajapati. Their history is extremely chequered and astonishing. Their brilliant past destroys the false pride of the Brahmanas and the Devas. That is why the Puranas have kept their history secret or hidden."

Page - 22: Like almost all the clan names the word Jat means a "king" or "supreme leader". In Unādivṛitti, Hemachandra says that the word Jat means king. This was so because the Jats were the first rulers in the vast central Asian plains as per Deva-Samhita.
 
Continuing our quest for more variants of the word "Jat" as an ethnic term, we now turn to central Asiatic countries and their chronicles as enumerated by Hukam Singh Pauriya [Pawar] in his book on the topic.In the countries of the Oxus valley we come across the word "Jatah" or "Jetteh"[75], "Zutt" or "Az-Zutt"[76], "Jith" or "Git"[77] during medieval and early medieval tunes, not only as names of various places including villages, towns, canals, rivers and mountains but also those of the Jat people who inhabited them after their deportation[78] from India. From classical historians and geographers of the first century B.C. as well as from those of first century A.D. have come down to us variants like "Xanthii" or "Zanthii" or "XandHii"[79] "Iatii" or "Iattii"[80] used for the people living on the banks of the Oxus between Bactria, Hyrkania and Khorasmia [81], "Xuthi" or "Zuthi"[82] for those who occupied Karamanian desert and Drangiana[83]. One scholar[84] suggests that those people gave their name as "Zotale" or "Zothale" to the irrigation channel from the Margus river. All these terms are said[85]to be variants of the term "Jit" with their "parental house on the Oxus" and "their original seat or colony in Sindh" as well as "on the Margus ("Zotale" or "Zothale") river". [For footnotes, see original book of Dr. Pawar]This quote clearly brings out to fore the fact that the Jats were spread over the region bounded by Indus in the east and the Oxus in the West in Central Asia in ancient times.
 
narenderkharb said:
Rana SahebNo body can understand Jat History without understanding basic Jat genetics. Regarding your view about bride giving and taking you are mistaken as these studies are based on Y haplogroup studies .All your hypothesis is just based on some false notions ...1 No mention of Jat word in ancient sources.2 Jat coming out of Arabian word Zat ...which is quite amusing as you have consulted no primary source.When you say word Jat was already known to Arabs in a derogatory sense ..I just ask where is the proof and you simply keep on avoiding this basic simple question . If you can't answer this basic question then you must not put forward a theory of origin which is derogatory to Jat Pride.
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If someone has solid evidences/sources of information he is free to propound newer theories by presentation of data and discussion in objective manner irrespective of the fact that his findings hurt pride of anyone or not ! So let Dr. Rana substantiate his hypotheses with inscrutable evidences please !
 
lrburdak said:
Regarding Jat Federation, Devasanhita and Central Asian

Regarding above queries Kindly go through Bhim Singh Dahiya's book Jats the Ancient Rulers. We have on Jatland at -

http://www.jatland.com/home/Jats_the_Ancient_Rulers_(A_clan_study)/The_Jats

I reproduce relavant content from the book:

Page - 18:

In all these ideas, that of the Ashtadhyayi grammar seems to be nearest to acceptable truth. This is supported by the fact that almost all these tribes (scattered forces) were professional warriors, and many of them were given the epithet of Vratya, i.e. foreigners. Whatever the origin of the word, there was definitely a Jat federation of ruling clans, during the time of Panini, Patanjali, etc. That is why, practically all the ancient Indian ruling families were from this race. The Mandas, Mauryas (Mores), the Pauras (Pors), the Kangs, the Variks, the Balhara, the Kasvans the Dharans, etc. were all from this Jat federation. When the Puranas say that there were seven Abhiras, (Ahirs), ten Gardhabas (Khars), sixteen or eighteen Saka (Kangs), fourteen Tusharas (Tukhars or Tusirs), thirteen Mandas, eleven Maunas (Maans) and eleven Puras (Pors)all ruling India for about 1,300 years, they are merely mentioning the various Jat clans.


Devasamhita - But something must have happened in the 6th or 7th century A.D., during the course of the revival of the orthodox Brahmanism, which made these people persona non grata with the new orthodoxy. That is why, when the Puranas were revised, their historical details and even their names were removed therefrom. It is perhaps to this state of affairs that Devasamhita refers, when it records that, "nobody has published the truth about the origin and activities of the Jat race. These Jats are most powerful, extremely brave and fierce fighters. These people are like the gods in their firm vows; and among all the Kshatriyas, these Jats were the first rulers of the earth. These people were born from the daughters of Daksha Prajapati. Their history is extremely chequered and astonishing. Their brilliant past destroys the false pride of the Brahmanas and the Devas. That is why the Puranas have kept their history secret or hidden."

Page - 22: Like almost all the clan names the word Jat means a "king" or "supreme leader". In Unādivṛitti, Hemachandra says that the word Jat means king. This was so because the Jats were the first rulers in the vast central Asian plains as per Deva-Samhita.
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There is no use of moving in round circles time and again by quoting Panini Asthadhayayi reference Jat jutt sangate which has no relation with Jats at all.Though Dahiya Saheb did a wonderful job but each of his word can not be taken as infallible truth.We must move on.. to improve his findings.

I really appreciate Dr Rana efforts in that regard where he amply shown the futility of unnecessary Jat connections searched in phrases like Jut Jhatt sanghate ,Jatila ,Jattari Jatua etc .This is simply false history and destined to be rejected on preliminary examination.

However by same logic Dr Rana should not base his theory on assumptions of others without critically examining them personly.
 
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DrRajpalSingh said:
If someone has solid evidences/sources of information he is free to propound newer theories by presentation of data and discussion in objective manner irrespective of the fact that his findings hurt pride of anyone or not ! So let Dr. Rana substantiate his hypotheses with inscrutable evidences please !
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Don't mind if Solid is replaced with Some .
 
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narenderkharb said:
Rana Saheb

No body can understand Jat History without understanding basic Jat genetics.

Regarding your view about bride giving and taking you are mistaken as these studies are based on Y haplogroup studies .

All your hypothesis is just based on some false notions ...

1 No mention of Jat word in ancient sources.
2 Jat coming out of Arabian word Zat ...which is quite amusing as you have consulted no primary source.

When you say word Jat was already known to Arabs in a derogatory sense ..I just ask where is the proof and you simply keep on avoiding this basic simple question . If you can't answer this basic question then you must not put forward a theory of origin which is derogatory to Jat Pride.
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Narendra ji,

Thanks for the verdict. Sorry for the disturbance that Imight have created.
 
drssrana2003 said:
Narendra ji,

Thanks for the verdict. Sorry for the disturbance that Imight have created.
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Rana Saheb I am deeply sorry for my comments which hurt you unintentionally.
Whatever intention I may have , I had no right to advice you on giving or not giving a theory. You have been of immence help in rightly understanding many Sanskrit inscription which were wrongly ascribed to Jats and same I expressed in earlier post also .

Please keep pouring as unearthing our past should always be a collective effort in the best interest of our community.
Regards.
 
Rana Saheb wrote -

On its own merit the Devasamhita is a forged text done by one Gorakh Singh in the 18/19 century.

I tried to find the earliest edition of Devasamhita but could not get it. If any body has it we may like to go through it. As per Dahiya's mention it pertains to about-8-9th century.

I had once sent one person to Haridwar to get its copy from one learned Brahman fellow who told that these Samhitas are written by Asuras and not accepted by Brahmans. Even he did not try to search it. There is a point in it because Devasamhita goes against Brahmans. Jats are least concerned as usual as in this thread. Jab kahin dhuan hai to aag ke srot ka to pata karo !

If Narender Ji has seen Devasamhita we may like his comments on it. We should have a strong evidence to reject a certain theory already floated by somebody.

As regards the Federation theory we have to accept it. India has always progressed under Federation Govts like Janpadas or republics. Monarchy has never succeeded here. Even when there was a strong monarch at central level, the governing lower levels were always republics.

The Genetic Studies discussed here also go in favour of the Jat Federation Theory.
 
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drssrana2003 said:
Narendra ji,

Thanks for the verdict. Sorry for the disturbance that Imight have created.
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Prof. Rana Sahib,

It is really wrong on our part to push the discussion in the way as in the instant case was unintentionally done. You are seasoned teacher and know this type of things happen often in class rooms when students in their haste to extract as much knowledge out of the teacher immediately as possible. Kindly forgive us and forget this as a bad dream.

Hope your continued constructive cooperation will continue in future too to unearth the past of Jats.

Thanks and regards
 
To attain the avowed object of the thread, participants are requested to contribute all those words that come to their knowledge which have been used as variants of the word 'Jat'.


Language or political frontiers of countries no bar.

This will help us to find out the date line when the first word as representing Community or race or caste of Jat in any language comes to light
 
prashantacmet said:
http://iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/Jat, getae, Gutian , Goth and kurd connection...............
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A few lines on the issue from this link are :"Hewitt also notes the connection between Jats and Goths:The Jats ... trace their descent to the land of Ghazni and Kandahar, watered by the mother-river of the Kushika race, the sacred Haetuman.t or Helmand. Their name connects them with the Getae of Thrace, and thence with the Gattons, said by Pytheas to live on the southern shores of the Baltic, the Gaettones placed by Ptolemy and Tacitus on the Vistula in the country of the Lithuanians, and the Goths of Gothland = Sweden. This Scandinavian descent is confirmed by their system of land-tenure, for the chief tenure of the Muttra district is that called Bhagadura, in which the members of the village brotherhood each hold as their family property a separate and defined area among the village lands, according to the customs of the Bratovos of the Balkan peninsula and the Hof-bauers of North-West {p.482} Germany ..The Getae of the Balkans are said by Herod to be the bravest and most just of the Thracians." (Hewitt 1894, p.481-482)''
 
DrRajpalSingh said:
A few lines on the issue from this link are :"Hewitt also notes the connection between Jats and Goths:The Jats ... trace their descent to the land of Ghazni and Kandahar, watered by the mother-river of the Kushika race, the sacred Haetuman.t or Helmand. Their name connects them with the Getae of Thrace, and thence with the Gattons, said by Pytheas to live on the southern shores of the Baltic, the Gaettones placed by Ptolemy and Tacitus on the Vistula in the country of the Lithuanians, and the Goths of Gothland = Sweden. This Scandinavian descent is confirmed by their system of land-tenure, for the chief tenure of the Muttra district is that called Bhagadura, in which the members of the village brotherhood each hold as their family property a separate and defined area among the village lands, according to the customs of the Bratovos of the Balkan peninsula and the Hof-bauers of North-West {p.482} Germany ..The Getae of the Balkans are said by Herod to be the bravest and most just of the Thracians." (Hewitt 1894, p.481-482)''
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My faith in the participants' good faith is
not shaken. So Isail on.

I consider the work of the old savants, who cared to talk about the wonderful communities they came into contact with. B

But it is also true that their line of investigation has not taken us any where near the answers we are trying to find. It is

124 years back that Hewitt wrote what he could write. It is useful for us to broaden our search area and do some out of the

box thinking.I am not suggesting that only new is the answer. My plea is that let us keep a window open for out of the old

lines of argumentation' Ithought the criticism of the steriotypes endorsed by some of our own elders will not be taken as
blasphemous.
 
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