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What seems to have happened is the development of a mob mentality, a rage, that led to these tragic deaths.

The mob mentality knows only rage, not rationality.

No khap panchayat will order a murder.

Historically, the panchayat has ordered Ostracization, “ Hookah Pani bandh”, not death.

Further this media attention has had a side benefit. It has brought to the attention of youg jats everywhere, the term ‘Khap’- what it means , what should its role be tomorrow.


That in itself is not a bad thing.

Until now that Khap had become an anachronism, something that was consigned to the dustbins of history, a term little understood and of little relevance.

Readers are encouraged to go through the archives to see what role the Khap and the sarv Khaps have played through history.


ON THE QUESTION OF LAW.

The Panchayat historically been a law making, and a law giving body.

This extended up from the village level, to the Khap and the Sarv Khap level. A modern parallel, would be village panchayat, to state assembly to national parliament.

The sarv khap made law, and dispensed justice.

It ran parallel to any central govt in Delhi.


The Sarv Khap power was only broken by the British post 1857, when British and then British/Indian law replaced Sarv Khap law.

The point to keep in mind is that these were legitimate, law making bodies, not kangaroo courts, and they were of high antiquity going back thousand of years.

Certainly they had a greater legitimacy than the current Indian constitution., which is only 60 years old.

The, panchayat, khap, and Sarv Khap represented Direct Democracy, the kind we still find in Switzerland, a system of referendum on all issues.


So the question arises what law should prevail- the jat law, for the Jats, of the law to be imposed upon them by a distant, disconnected, law making body?


MARRIAGE RULES ( or LAW)


The Hindu Marriage Act is a recent creation , 1956, some 50+ years ago.

Previously the Hindu law( uncodified) did not permit same gotra marriage.

After 1956 it allowed that, and also allowed 1st cousin marriage.

The question is why it did not accommodate the customs of communities like the jats, the Gujars, who did not allow marriage in the same gothra.

Any outside observer will agree that act is an injustice, an injustice that must be redressed.

Food for thought.


Ravi Chaudhary
 
In reply to post by Sh. Ravi Chaudhary.

The, panchayat, khap, and Sarv Khap represented Direct Democracy, the kind we still find in Switzerland, a system of referendum on all issues.

Ravi ji, do you think any referendum in line with Swiss pattern is conducted by our khaps before arriving at any decision. Can you throw some light as to approximately what percentage of Jats belonging to that particular khaps are given the opportunity to participate in the decision making process?.
 
I disagree on this point. Gaam ki chori bahan/beti mani jati he chahe vo kisi gotra ki ho. Ye point bhi add karna chahiye. Onus is not on us onus is on the media and refugee/ refugan to prove us wrong. Sometime for beliefs there can be no logical/biological reasoning. What there logic reasoing of allowing a Muslim to have 4 wives. Why they allow this? Just because someone written this in a book( probably for his own pleasure :D) Whats the biology behind this?

Jitender - Yes, here my point was that we have to decide whether this point will be socially discouraged or can it be included under law.


As Samar said earlier us discussion me hamne bhi bula lo.

Jitender - Nobody will be going to call from home. You will need be in such panchayats and people linked to them. OmPrakash dhankar have been active for long and carrying so much of papers now and then. He has written letters to many of leaders and media too. This way you can be part of such discussion. It is demand of the day that youth should come out to participate. Each and everytime media got this point that these khaps have been dominated by illitrate, elders without say for youth and ladies.

I appreciate Mr. Pardeep Ahlawat who was there in Chotu Ram Rohtak meeting. Such a logical person. Same as Bijender in this case with NDTV. So I am sure youth will tackle this media in much affective way than elders.


It can be discussed within community not in fornt of media. And the community would decide whether to push these to get included in the law or not as earlier said " whats the biological reason for a hindu not to eat beef. Beef meat is considered good for health. It has Zinc, Iron and many vitamins. I am sure their study of medical/biology would favour eating it."

Jitender - Yes, true. But when we say in front of media, in panchayats, in seminars that it is good biologically. We must have strong points and medical reasoning to defend that. If we dont have any then we must not even utter the same.

Like in Chotu Ram Seminar one of our doctors have put forward that thelsemia is not there in Jats but it is there in Punjabis of camp area. When I put this point in front of liberals ... they were better prepared to our candidate and said that there is no such record found in the department related to themsemia in Rohtak Medical College.

If we dont have any medical reasoning then why to utter that statement?

We don’t have to justify these to anyone. The community should decide within themselves and these people (media and other refugee/refugan) has to agree to that.

Jitender - But atleast we have to justify things to US (WE). I appreciate that time and again we have justified ourselves and left many a traditions being followed in past. Same way indirectly and silently the khaps again have RELAXED Bhaichara among several gotras. As there is no mention of hard stand on such marriages in recent gatherings.

They are not cunning and planned as media and opposition is. Else they would have put this as first point and say that we are not too hard for our youth. We think for them and that is why We have relaxed such norms again.

Sorry for being blunt par hamne inti justificaion den ki ke jaroorat he. Honour killing is a different issue aur ham sab ki ek rai he uspe. Honour killing is mostly done by the family itself and its done by one harijan of my nearby village and no one said anything. Baki ye medical har biology :D:D

Jitender - Hum sab ki ek rai nahi hai honour killings pe. Some say we should as a family go for and some say we must not. Please go through the thread.

Asal mein yo Same gotra er Maa ke gotr ka solution je kanoon ke through ho jya to honour killings ke jarute konya pade.

My comments inline ....
 
If we dont have any medical reasoning then why to utter that statement?

Jitender, What I meant is we dont have to prove reasoning for our customs. Like in the above two quoted examples in my post does Muslims or Hindu has any medical reasoning. Those who utter these statements might have medical resoning but y do we we need one? Its our custom and belief and thats enough.

Regarding Honor killing: Its mostly done by family itself. I think I have followed this thread and cant remember who was advocating it. Could you please provide the link. Yes someone said he favour honour killing but only for his own family not for the society as general. That not khaps job to stop them its police job.
 
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In reply to post by Sh. Ravi Chaudhary.



Ravi ji, do you think any referendum in line with Swiss pattern is conducted by our khaps before arriving at any decision. Can you throw some light as to approximately what percentage of Jats belonging to that particular khaps are given the opportunity to participate in the decision making process?.

Dear Singhji

It was a mis type on my part.

My apologies.

What I meant to write was that the Swiss referendum system for the Swiss canton, is similar to the Khap system, and follows the Khap traditions of direct democracy.

The Khap Panchyat system of the Jats predates the Swiss system by well over 2 000 years.

If you wish to delve into the matter more( and I hope you and other readers do), please look into the archives of this site and the Yahoo Jathistory group ( URL below).


On your other note:

As far as I know the Jat panchayat sytem has been and is open to all. Any Jat member can call a meeting and have his voice heard.

This is not too suggest it is perfect, no system is,( there will be lacunae) but the principle is old and time tested.

Let us focus on the positive side and keep working to fix the negatives.


Best regards

Ravi Chaudhary
 
Dear Singhji

It was a mis type on my part.

My apologies.

What I meant to write was that the Swiss referendum system for the Swiss canton, is similar to the Khap system, and follows the Khap traditions of direct democracy.

The Khap Panchyat system of the Jats predates the Swiss system by well over 2 000 years.

If you wish to delve into the matter more( and I hope you and other readers do), please look into the archives of this site and the Yahoo Jathistory group ( URL below).


On your other note:

As far as I know the Jat panchayat sytem has been and is open to all. Any Jat member can call a meeting and have his voice heard.

This is not too suggest it is perfect, no system is,( there will be lacunae) but the principle is old and time tested.

Let us focus on the positive side and keep working to fix the negatives.


Best regards

Ravi Chaudhary
Dear Ravi ji,

Thanks for your clarification. I agree the governance in 26 Swiss cantons (made of communes) is through conventions and referendum. Until a few years ago, the country did not even have a written constitution (no idea of the current situation). In fact, instead of direct democracy, as you put it, it may also be called consensus democracy which provides full opportunity to each and every citizen (commune member) to participate in direct decision making through referendum which is not followed by our Khaps. The dynastic system is followed in selection of the Khap leader which is feudalistic and undemocratic in nature. Like in Balyan Khap Tikait family will continue to head that Khap irrespective of the fact that there is no dearth of more qualified, capable and honest people in that khap. Similarly, democratic norms viz. vote or referendum are not applied in decision making. These are the negatives points of our Khaps which need to be addressed to.

Moreover, we cannot compare ourselves with the Swiss society. I have first hand information about that country after having visited at least three times (1994, 2004 & 2005). Have travelled length and breadth of that country covering the biggest cantons Zurich and Bern apart from Geneva, Luzern, Interlaken, Basel and many other smaller and remote areas having lot of interaction with People and their traditions. They are far more civilized, honest and law abiding unlike us. Their faith in democracy is more firm and resolute. They respect their fellow citizens' dissenting voice. That is why for the last forty years, only four political parties are ruling by consensus. They do not believe in laat, ghoonsa or murder to silence their opponents. The commune leaders do not interfere in the individual lives and relationships. No dictates for honour killing. There are not many gotras. There is also no religious diversity, no caste system. Hence there is no similarity between Swiss communes and our society. Material conditions are entirely different. I am sorry to point out. Just a little example - people have no fear in putting the money for the milkman outside their houses. The milkman would leave the bottles of milk outside the houses without waking up the house owner(customer) and collect the money left by them in the evening outside the house at a designated place without any lock. Can we do so in our country. There is absolutely no comparison. Therefore, better not to compare our Khaps to their communes.

[FONT=&quot] Contrary to your claim, every Jat will not be heard without a warm welcome with laat, Ghoonsa or at least a reprimand if he dares to point out any lacuna in the approach adopted by the Khap Panchayats. I have witnessed many such Panchayats where Khap leaders are flanked by musclemen from the community to fix those who dare to challenge their leader.

A holistic review is required by the khaps if they want to play a positive role in the community affairs. First and foremost step is democratization of the election process. Leaders should be selected on the basis of a referendum and not on the basis of family lineage. Participation of more and more young, progressive and educated youth can add value and substance to the community councils.
The retrograde steps like reverse engineering for converting the relationship of a husband and wife into brother sisters will have to be done away with altogether. The Khap leaders may now backtrack infront of TV camera saying that they never abetted any honour killing, but their movement to collect money to defend those who are facing sentence for honour killing corroborates the fact that honour killings have their implicit recognition and hidden encouragement. A cross section , rather wide section of society does not endorse this kind of approach. If anybody has any doubt, a referendum on this subject may bring the facts to light.

There is no denying the fact that in some disputes community leaders can play a positive role and deliver speedy trial. But the trial should be fair, transparent and should have approval from the majority in the community. Therefore, a mechanism need to be devised to have the majority opinion which is not impossible in today's world of internet. They (khap leaders) will have to read writings on the wall and have to cede some space for changing ethos of social behaviour, in moderation. As Jitender Hooda has rightly observed in his post, khap leaders do not do their homework before facing the media. In my opinion, they must include more and more educated youth to handle the media affairs. Handling media is a dicy thing and our leaders have miserably failed in this job. Therefore, more and more media savvy people, especially, educated youth must be given some space.
[/FONT]
 
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Mr Singh, Your argument seem to care beyond usefulness about a biased media who hardly understand an unbaised reporting. Your argument also put forwards the word democracy at various points. Have you critically analysed media reports/show's democracy. Undoubtly media is using the victimised psychology. Is that democratic?
 
Mr Singh, Your argument seem to care beyond usefulness about a biased media who hardly understand an unbaised reporting. Your argument also put forwards the word democracy at various points. Have you critically analysed media reports/show's democracy. Undoubtly media is using the victimised psychology. Is that democratic?

Samar, Let us start our own TV channel for rebuttal of the false and unduly hyped news. As per my knowledge, there are some Jat journalists working with the 'infamous Andy TV' as well as with the biased print media. We will request them to work with us. You would agree with me, at times, our presentation has been weak. The latest programme on NDTV is an example. Do you think, our representatives were effective in countering the allegations. I am sure, if you were there, you could have given a more convincing rebuttal than our dear representatives there.

Media is very powerful nowadays, and we have to handle it with care.
 
Samar, Let us start our own TV channel for rebuttal of the false and unduly hyped news. As per my knowledge, there are some Jat journalists working with the 'infamous Andy TV' as well as with the biased print media. We will request them to work with us. You would agree with me, at times, our presentation has been weak. The latest programme on NDTV is an example. Do you think, our representatives were effective in countering the allegations. I am sure, if you were there, you could have given a more convincing rebuttal than our dear representatives there.

Media is very powerful nowadays, and we have to handle it with care.

On presentation- Why we need to put make up to impress a legion of disingeous people in first place? Why do we need to get validation and approval from ignorant groups ?It was pre planned to affront instead of a healthy discussion. A healthy discussion involves an anchor who has apt knoweledge of facts without getting overly emotional with one party or belief.

Our own news channel is not a bad idea. I am ready to take up the job , release funds please!
 
[
QUOTE=Samarkadian;
Our own news channel is not a bad idea. I am ready to take up the job , release funds please!
I am serious about this suggestion. If I were in place of those rich Jats as glorified by our forum, I would have definitely loosened the strings of my purses. But, if we all seriously think on this moot point and come together as entire Jat community, I will not lag much behind in the contribution according to my capacity. If Baba Ramdev can affort to start a channel why not such a vast community which has affluent and rich people like owners of DLF. It is a moot point and can be discussed with more seriousness under a different thread if more members are interested.
 
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http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100506/haryana.htm#10

In a move to garner support of political parties in the state for its demand for amendment to the Hind Marriage Act to ban marriages within the same gotra and village, representatives of the Sarvajatiya Khap Panchayat today met INLD supremo Om Prakash Chautala and submitted a memorandum to him.

Chautala, Leader of the Opposition in the state assembly, assured the delegation that he would bring a resolution in the assembly for taking up the demand of the panchayat for an amendment in the Hindu Marriage Act, said a spokesperson of the body.
He claimed that the former Chief Minister also assured his support if the state or the Centre adopts a resolution on the issue. Mewa Singh, who led the delegation, claimed that the panchayat had been pursuing what had been resolved at the Sarva Jatiya Mahapanchayat held at Pai in Kaithal on May 2, in which it was made clear that no marriage in the same gotra, same village and even in the neighboring village would be acceptable and the government should amend the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955, suitably to adjust these demands so that there was no violation of the well-known social norms.
Randhir Singh, head of the Meham Chaubisi Panchayat, Tek Ram Kandela of the Kandela Khap and Krishan Khatkar of the Khatkar Khap were among others who constituted the delegation.
The INLD is the first political party to support the demand of the Sarva Jatiya Khap Panchayat on amendment to the Hindu Marriage Act. The panchayat has also declared to 'gherao' and oppose those MPs and MLAs who fail to give support to its demand.
 
Jagmati Sangwan is silent on the issue of marriage on the same goth.


comments?

Ravi Chaudhary

She has not been reported so far to be favouring or encouraging the same gotra marriage. As you know she belongs to an organization which is an outfit of a leftist political party and in her public utterances, she has to follow the party line. However, no idea of her individual opinion on this subject, as far as my knowledge goes, Chaudhary Sahab. I, however, know her as a student of Home Science in Haryana Agriculture University and also as a good wrestler hailing from a reputed family. Another thing I know about her is that she has been genuinely taking up issues like, female foeticide, dowry and sexual harassment at work place etc. as part of the agenda of her organization.

Warm Regards.
 
VP ji

Here the issue is same goth marriage, and an attack on Jat customs.

She is harping on a few cases- 4 to be exact.

( The incidents are tragic,and I share the pain of the families involved. There are no winners here. We must keep working to find a better way.)

This number of cases certainly does not reflect the majority of the marriages in Jat society.



To describe Jat society in " Islamic terrorist" terms, Taliban, Fatwa, Farman . Is that not going a little bit overboard ?.

Question is, what is her motivation to do this ?.

Why demean your own society?

She is still silent on the issue of same goth marriage!

Why?

Ravi Chaudhary
 
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Thanks for bringing this information. As she stated in her statement that Khaps are doing this for political millage. I doubt her credibility more now as she is already attached to a political party and accusing others.
She has not been reported so far to be favouring or encouraging the same gotra marriage. As you know she belongs to an organization which is an outfit of a leftist political party and in her public utterances, she has to follow the party line. However, no idea of her individual opinion on this subject, as far as my knowledge goes, Chaudhary Sahab. I, however, know her as a student of Home Science in Haryana Agriculture University and also as a good wrestler hailing from a reputed family. Another thing I know about her is that she has been genuinely taking up issues like, female foeticide, dowry and sexual harassment at work place etc. as part of the agenda of her organization.

Warm Regards.
 
Thanks for bringing this information. As she stated in her statement that Khaps are doing this for political millage. I doubt her credibility more now as she is already attached to a political party and accusing others.

.... and leftist deep seated ideology goes against nature and human system of tradition and belief.
 
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