Art student got beaten up in Baroda - BJP gundagardi!!

[shailendra]

...with proper graphics!

... and here is something to make the above wonderful vision of mass stand-offs to settle long standing disputes, a reality! [Click on it and see it animated!!!]
Arm everyone with the good ol' Laathi's and let them slug it out over freedom!!!

 

[sidchhikara]

... and here is something to make the above wonderful vision of mass stand-offs to settle long standing disputes, a reality! [Click on it and see it animated!!!]
Arm everyone with the good ol' Laathi's and let them slug it out over freedom!!!

Bro that lathait is the bomb!! haha - you got talent my friend!

 

[sidchhikara]

... and here is something to make the above wonderful vision of mass stand-offs to settle long standing disputes, a reality! [Click on it and see it animated!!!]
Arm everyone with the good ol' Laathi's and let them slug it out over freedom!!!

Shailendra,
I just made that pehalwan you caricatured my God. I have strong objection with you making fun of my God. I urge you to stop making fun of him like this! - it hurts my sentiments. From now on, if anybody makes fun of this pehalwan, he will have to deal with me - because I have constitutional protection. I will slap the S**t out of you. I am sure if I go the Chandgi Ram akhara - I can get a few pehalwans also to follow my religion. Then its my lathi and your ass.

 

[shailendra]

I urge you to stop making fun of him like this! - it hurts my sentiments. From now on, if anybody makes fun of this pehalwan, he will have to deal with me - because I have constitutional protection. I am sure if I go the Chandgi Ram akhara - I can get a few pehalwans also to follow my religion.

Listen Sid, I just want to say this is not correct and its not at all how you and your pehalwans and their akharas can show your freedom of expression.This is INDIA.If you are staying out (?) don't try and compare rules of those akharas with the rest of India.I know that they are very developed (huge muscles!) and they have open culture to accept things [specially when related to 'Ghee']. But we are reserve in nature...and humble who just like to sketch and doodle and not get into any argument!

...Also, please don't try and talk like that Arundhati Rai (that Roy took poor Aishwariya's last name after she ran off and married the Bachchans) ...don't talk like her here (who also, I have a vague suspicion, is part of your Akhara)...These Chandgi Ram Akhara Phelwans and Roy's of the world are all socialites..They just want to be in news, nothing else!

 

[sidchhikara]

Hi Sid
You are going out of track from the title.We have concern over artist painting deities in obscene manner.I just want to say this is not correct and its not at all freedom of expression.This is INDIA.If you are staying out dont compare rules of those countries with India.They are very developed and they have open culture to accept things.But we are reserve in nature.

Oh are we!!, I think we are far from it. We have an affinity for nonsense and making an issue out of non-issues - and then acting upon them with violence. We are reserved (should I say - totally unfocussed and willingly apathetic) when it comes to real issues - that actually affect people's lives - health, education, government accountability, corruption.

I havent understand Why you are talking like this on the name of Freedom of Expression.I am quite agree with Dharmvir Singh "If some genius,inspired artist paint something nude from one of our family members what will be our reaction. Will we say that words doesn't kill and pictures doesn't harm.(For lot of people thier personal diety are much more important and they cannot be insulted, Not in the name of art and freedom of expression). Freedom of expression doesn't mean that we can say whatever we want to say"
You havent given answer of this question.
Dear bro...Dont talk like Arundhati Rai...They are socialite..They want to be in news

Well lets get to answering the question of painting NUDE pictures of my family - looks like you want to see nude pictures of my family!! - are you thinking of drawing one?? In the very rare case that happens... this is what I will do... I will not slap the painter.... I will draw nude painting of the painters family also... I can hire Shailedra here... he draws excellent caricatures and that will be the end of that.

Arundhati Roy - well my agenda is different from her - she is a liberal (socially liberal, fiscally - liberal (poor mans Robin Hood - communist)), I am a libertarian (socially liberal, fiscally - conservative (small government, less taxes, I keep my money and spend it the way I like - maybe help the poor)). I hope you get the point.

 

[sidchhikara]

Listen Sid, I just want to say this is not correct and its not at all how you and your pehalwans and their akharas can show your freedom of expression.This is INDIA.If you are staying out (?) don't try and compare rules of those akharas with the rest of India.I know that they are very developed (huge muscles!) and they have open culture to accept things [specially when related to 'Ghee']. But we are reserve in nature...and humble who just like to sketch and doodle and not get into any argument!

...Also, please don't try and talk like that Arundhati Rai (that Roy took poor Aishwariya's last name after she ran off and married the Bachchans) ...don't talk like her here (who also, I have a vague suspicion, is part of your Akhara)...These Chandgi Ram Akhara Phelwans and Roy's of the world are all socialites..They just want to be in news, nothing else!

hahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahahahhahha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sidchhikara]

These Chandgi Ram Akhara Phelwans and Roy's of the world are all socialites..

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dahiyars]

STATEMENT
The following is the text of the statement signed by numerous artists on the occasion of the protest at Rabindra Bhavan, New Delhi:
WE, the undersigned, wish to voice our strong protest and condemnation of the continuing assault on academic and other forms of freedom of expression by members of the Sangh Parivar. In recent years, senior artists such as M F Husain have been targets of both violence and innumerable, scurrilous lawsuits whose intent is to browbeat and intimidate freedom of expression within the Sovereign Republic of India. Citizens’ right to legal redress is being misused to harass citizens; court proceedings are being used to punitively target whomever the Hindu right deems convenient in order to obtain cheap attention for its nefarious goals
The recent attack on a graduate student at the prestigious Faculty of Fine Arts, M S University, Baroda, is the latest instance of this bludgeoning of public rights of expression. This was done with full state collusion. On Thursday, May 10, 200, Neeraj Jain a known BJP activist, along with a group of Vishwa Hindu Parishad members, entered the premises of the Fine Arts Faculty where students’ artworks were on display as part of the process of annual student evaluation. They used violence against Chandramohan, a Master’s candidate, and the police arrested him. Chandramohan has been in jail since then. The charge levelled against him is that of hurting religious sentiments.
Students in the Department of Art History at the University then mounted a ‘protest exhibition’ that attempted to show historical and pre-modern masterpieces from the history of art which could, in today’s charged atmosphere, be deemed ‘offensive’. The intention of the show was to question misconceptions about ‘art’, ‘tradition’, ‘obscenity’ and ‘transgression’. On May 11, the pro-vice chancellor of the University marched into the Department accompanied by four Syndicate members and ordered Professor Shivaji Panikkar, the acting Dean, to shut down the exhibition. When Professor Panikkar refused, the pro-VC had the exhibition brought down, and sealed the archive of the Art History Department. Professor Panikkar, a highly respected academic with internationally recognised credentials, has since been suspended from his position and there is a demand to name him as co-accused in the case along with Chandramohan.
These kinds of attack on academics and artists not only represent the erosion of democratic freedoms, essential to the establishment of a vigorous and open society, but also destroy the very basis on which universities are founded. Let us make no mistake, the attack here is not merely on a particular artwork or form of expression, but on the very spirit of open-minded inquiry that is at the heart of the university’s functioning. It is clear that since the rise of the Hindu right in the last decade and a half, India is descending into a dark prison for the imagination. And that, in states where the Hindu right or its allies are in power, state and police officials openly collude with their lumpen party mobs.
We, artists and art-related professionals, members of university faculties and administrations, and Indian citizens foremost, find this loutish behaviour intolerable. From these “narrow domestic walls”, these “dreary desert sands of dead habit”, as Tagore put it, may the people of India awake.
We appeal to all secular parties/organisations and individuals to raise their voice against the misuse of the police, judicial system and the state machinery to muzzle freedom of expression through coercion and intimidation.

R.S.Dahiya

 

[dv1303]

[quote=sidchhikara;137559]Oh are we!!, I think we are far from it. We have an affinity for nonsense and making an issue out of non-issues - and then acting upon them with violence. We are reserved (should I say - totally unfocussed and willingly apathetic) when it comes to real issues - that actually affect people's lives - health, education, government accountability, corruption.

Sidharth I agree with you that there are more pressing issues which we need to take care of, But my point is that the issue you raised is not something which can be ignored completely. What we should do is to take care of both issues, Well its personal which issue is more pressing for whom.

Well lets get to answering the question of painting NUDE pictures of my family - looks like you want to see nude pictures of my family!! - are you thinking of drawing one?? In the very rare case that happens... this is what I will do... I will not slap the painter.... I will draw nude painting of the painters family also... I can hire Shailedra here... he draws excellent caricatures and that will be the end of that.

Bhai Jaat hai ki konya,voh baat sun kar bhi betha rehga ( just joking)
My friend then you are also guilty of same crime. And the law ensures that you don't have to degrade ur personal standard to deal with these kind of things. That is why we have the article which is quoted many times. in previous posts
Freedom is to share and voice your concerns not to insult.

 

[sidchhikara]

Oh are we!!, I think we are far from it. We have an affinity for nonsense and making an issue out of non-issues - and then acting upon them with violence. We are reserved (should I say - totally unfocussed and willingly apathetic) when it comes to real issues - that actually affect people's lives - health, education, government accountability, corruption.

Sidharth I agree with you that there are more pressing issues which we need to take care of, But my point is that the issue you raised is not something which can be ignored completely. What we should do is to take care of both issues, Well its personal which issue is more pressing for whom.

Dharamvir sahab, We cannot take care of anything because you have been handcuffed and muzzled by the government. To take care of issues you need to speak and act on it.......... well I have a newsflash for you..... in India you cannot do either one of those because of something I quoted earlier to Yatinder......... from the draconian Indian Penal Code......

{ What do you plan to do?? Please be careful what you say or do against the government - because your ass might land up in Jail. THe reason is as follows...... see highlighted portion.
Freedom of speech and expression, which enable an individual to participate in public activities. The phrase, "freedom of press" has not been used in Article 19, but freedom of expression includes freedom of press. Reasonable restrictions can be imposed in the interest of public order, security of State, decency or morality.

You may not pay too much attention to the Indian Penal Code - but the government bureaucrats have it on the back of the hand.... when they send that police ka Jawan over to pick up your ass and he insults you in front of your family you will change your views on freedom of speech in a heartbeat.
P.S. I forgot to mention that you might also get slapped around by pahalwan that the local politician sent over to give you a maalish. }

Do you know that your current government was planning to ban blogs in India.... like this one. It took a concerted effort on part of bloggers and free speech advocated to avert that perverse action.

Well lets get to answering the question of painting NUDE pictures of my family - looks like you want to see nude pictures of my family!! - are you thinking of drawing one?? In the very rare case that happens... this is what I will do... I will not slap the painter.... I will draw nude painting of the painters family also... I can hire Shailedra here... he draws excellent caricatures and that will be the end of that.

Bhai Jaat hai ki konya,voh baat sun kar bhi betha rehga ( just joking).

Bhai ke chahve sai tu - rehpta maroo uske??

My friend then you are also guilty of same crime. And the law ensures that you don't have to degrade ur personal standard to deal with these kind of things. That is why we have the article which is quoted many times. in previous posts
Freedom is to share and voice your concerns not to insult.

The key word is personal - its mine - so please donot put your benchmarks for me.

 

[dv1303]

The key word is personal - its mine - so please donot put your benchmarks for me.

Don't take it personaly. when I used ur it was for universal and not as u.

Anyway lets try to cut the long discusion short, What is your view on somebody painting nude paintings of godess ( as our famous mr Husain did).
For you is it a right thing to do. ( bear in mind that Mr husain is inspired only by hindu godesses, whereas being a muslim he never get inspired by Mohammed which is strange).

 

[dv1303]

well said

Here are the right answers guys :

1) If that innocent artist really painted the gods/goddesses in nude, he should be punished. By whom and how - thats the question. In my view, his own nude pic should have been painted (and may be with his family) and displayed in the same Art seminar in the name of Freedom of Expression.

2) The so-called slapping by BJP Moral police was also wrong. These so-called cultural-keepers just try to be in news and show that they have power to do anything. They should have been punished too by reverse slapping.

Both the artist and BJP 'goonda' exerted their freedom of expression but way of expression was wrong in each case. So,they should have been given the same expression so that they understand the impact of it.

Well said but the law doesn't permit eye for eye

 

[sidchhikara]

Don't take it personaly. when I used ur it was for universal and not as u.

Anyway lets try to cut the long discusion short, What is your view on somebody painting nude paintings of godess ( as our famous mr Husain did).
For you is it a right thing to do. ( bear in mind that Mr husain is inspired only by hindu godesses, whereas being a muslim he never get inspired by Mohammed which is strange).

Nothing new, already been done by our ancestors in various temples around India. This fake morality people talk about these days is a result of centuries of rule by the Muslims. The British came in and smartly took advantage of this narrow minded thinking (they wanted to keep us ignorant and mentally blocked) and drafted it into our constitution where this legacy remain till this day. You are trying to protect this fake morality that was'nt your creation in the first place.

There is nothing to get inspired by Mohammed - there is no visual record of him. As far as Mr Hussain is concerned, I am not very familiar with his work except those Goddess paintings, I would not be bothered at all by it because it does not concern me, I am financially incapable of buying it and honestly and truthfully - I am not a big fan of his work, I got other things that are important in my life like my family, my financial status and my freedom. If actions by the government or the moral police encroach on any of those things - thats when I speak out.

You have asked me a lot of questions, let me ask you one......
Why are you with the moral police and the government. Please do this for me... sit down for a few minutes........ go over your life till now...... and think what the government has done for you.........
Please take into account....
Public services (Roads, water, electricity, housing, cleanliness)
Education (please remember how hard it is to get into so-called government higher education quality institutes in India, the government schools funded by taxpayers money are a disgrace)
Public Safety (Police, fire department)
Individual Freedom (like the issue discussed in this thread - being slapped by BJP guy and no action from the government)
Law and Order (can you get justice in India?)
Economy (We are filled with pride when India gets *****y call-center and back office work from US and Europe- with the size of our population we should be employing the Europeans and Americans - shame on the government and shame on us for not seeing through the game this government is playing)
Employment (There is employment in IT sector and thats it - which is a totally private initiative)

There are many more things............

Now rate the achievements of the government (whose agenda about moral policing you sympathesize with!) from a scale of 1-10.

I would give it a BIG 0.

 

[pnauhwar21]

Nothing new, already been done by our ancestors in various temples around India. This fake morality people talk about these days is a result of centuries of rule by the Muslims. The British came in and smartly took advantage of this narrow minded thinking (they wanted to keep us ignorant and mentally blocked) and drafted it into our constitution where this legacy remain till this day. You are trying to protect this fake morality that was'nt your creation in the first place.

There is nothing to get inspired by Mohammed - there is no visual record of him. As far as Mr Hussain is concerned, I am not very familiar with his work except those Goddess paintings, I would not be bothered at all by it because it does not concern me, I am financially incapable of buying it and honestly and truthfully - I am not a big fan of his work, I got other things that are important in my life like my family, my financial status and my freedom. If actions by the government or the moral police encroach on any of those things - thats when I speak out.

Sid, don't take it personally just coz I am quoting you but I had to for countering your points ...

First of all everyone has their own standards of morals. For some, a girl dancing around in bikini is immoral while for others its fashion. As for a normal person, whatever one does with his/her own life it doesn't and shouldn't matter to other person. But in this case, if the Art Student or Great Hussain draw nude pics of gods/godesses, they are transgressing in the faith of other people. Drawing nude pics of gods or any person is not broad mindedness rather its the narrow thinking of these artists who don't anything better to draw in the whole world. Everything has a line which should not be crossed.

Secondly, everytime we give examples old temples n all. Please remember that these were created by all powerful kings who had no laws to be feared of and an average person could not raise his voice against them whatever they did. Just because, somebody in the past created Khajuraho temples doesn't mean that has been our culture.

You mentioned 'I got other things that are important in my life like my family, my financial status and my freedom. If actions by the government or the moral police encroach on any of those things - thats when I speak out' - How did slapping of an artist somewhere by someone encroach your family space? But you still are speaking out...why? Coz you have a view thats not matching BJP brigade. This is your freedom of expression.

I have never supported this moral brigade when they create rucass over celebrating valentine day or burn effigies of Richard Gere n Shilpa..here they are crossing their lines and interfering in personal space of people when there lots of better things to do for the country..

BTW, just think again practically, if someone actually creates nude pics of your family and displays them publicly (I really wish not!!) - you will be mad like hell and will beat hell out of him. Though in this case since the innocent artist created pics of virtual Gods, it doesn't impact you much.

 

[sidchhikara]

Its getting to a point where its like beating my head against a rock. There is no compromise for some people here.
This is how the discussion is going here.........

I think it was wrong to beat the student........ BUT ...... blah blah blah!!!!!!

You either have freedom of speech and expression or NOT....... there is no middle ground..... these are inalienable rights every human being should have to life a happy life....PERIOD....... no exception. You cannot have a an informed citizenry without these rights......... that is the reason all the first world countries have these. I donot understand why some people here voluntarily want to give up those rights.......... maybe because of some unfounded insecurities..... maybe because they just like the things the way they are (inertia)...... don't want to take any risks ...... It is not their fault..... living under a communist / socialist system for so long will do that to you!!! But what I don't understand is that every human being is born with a certain IQ and the force and cogence with which I have tried explaining myself.. something would seep in............ but oh well. You have a chance to open your mind and come out of your shell... something people in countries like N Korea, China etc donot have, but still you want to take it.
I will stop rambling and wasting bandwidth now.

 

[yatinder19]

Listen Sid, I just want to say this is not correct and its not at all how you and your pehalwans and their akharas can show your freedom of expression.This is INDIA.If you are staying out (?) don't try and compare rules of those akharas with the rest of India.I know that they are very developed (huge muscles!) and they have open culture to accept things [specially when related to 'Ghee']. But we are reserve in nature...and humble who just like to sketch and doodle and not get into any argument!

...Also, please don't try and talk like that Arundhati Rai (that Roy took poor Aishwariya's last name after she ran off and married the Bachchans) ...don't talk like her here (who also, I have a vague suspicion, is part of your Akhara)...These Chandgi Ram Akhara Phelwans and Roy's of the world are all socialites..They just want to be in news, nothing else!

Shailender Bhaai
This was nice.I liked that...U know so many ways to say things

 

[yatinder19]

Well lets get to answering the question of painting NUDE pictures of my family - looks like you want to see nude pictures of my family!! - are you thinking of drawing one?? In the very rare case that happens... this is what I will do... I will not slap the painter.... I will draw nude painting of the painters family also... I can hire Shailedra here... he draws excellent caricatures and that will be the end of that.

This is silly my bro...I never mean so...You will not slap that painter.You are just saying this to keep your Frredom of expression.This will start rat race...Will spoil culture..But can u tell me how many of us will not do this thing...

 

[dv1303]

There is nothing to get inspired by Mohammed - there is no visual record of him. As far as Mr Hussain is concerned, I am not very familiar with his work except those Goddess paintings, I would not be bothered at all by it because it does not concern me, I am financially incapable of buying it and honestly and truthfully - I am not a big fan of his work, I got other things that are important in my life like my family, my financial status and my freedom. If actions by the government or the moral police encroach on any of those things - thats when I speak out.

I am sorry but I am still not able tounderstand your concern. What is your problem. Ur problem seems to be that a BJP guy slapped the poor inocent guy who by geeting inspiration draw some nude pictures. If somebody secular have done so he must be doing it in the name of protecting secularisum. Or is it freedom of expression at any cost,at any rate.

You have asked me a lot of questions, let me ask you one......
Why are you with the moral police and the government. Please do this for me... sit down for a few minutes........ go over your life till now...... and think what the government has done for you.........
Please take into account....
Public services (Roads, water, electricity, housing, cleanliness)
Education (please remember how hard it is to get into so-called government higher education quality institutes in India, the government schools funded by taxpayers money are a disgrace)
Public Safety (Police, fire department)
Individual Freedom (like the issue discussed in this thread - being slapped by BJP guy and no action from the government)
Law and Order (can you get justice in India?)
Economy (We are filled with pride when India gets *****y call-center and back office work from US and Europe- with the size of our population we should be employing the Europeans and Americans - shame on the government and shame on us for not seeing through the game this government is playing)
Employment (There is employment in IT sector and thats it - which is a totally private initiative)

There are many more things............

Now rate the achievements of the government (whose agenda about moral policing you sympathesize with!) from a scale of 1-10.

I would give it a BIG 0.

I am not with the moral policing and neither with the Goverment. I agree with you that we need to be concerned with lot of other things which are affecting the progress and day to day activities of peoples life. But My friend this was not what you were discussing. You started the thread with BJP's goondgardi and not with "The incapability of goverment to provide good governence". This is sepearte topic of discussion and shouldn't be mingled with the present one to make it feel less important.

If you wish we can start a new thread to talk about all the things you just mentioned ,completely eliminating the gondagardi topic.

 

[dv1303]

right way

Its getting to a point where its like beating my head against a rock. There is no compromise for some people here.
This is how the discussion is going here.........

I think it was wrong to beat the student........ BUT ...... blah blah blah!!!!!!

You either have freedom of speech and expression or NOT....... there is no middle ground..... these are inalienable rights every human being should have to life a happy life....PERIOD....... no exception. You cannot have a an informed citizenry without these rights......... that is the reason all the first world countries have these. I donot understand why some people here voluntarily want to give up those rights.......... maybe because of some unfounded insecurities..... maybe because they just like the things the way they are (inertia)...... don't want to take any risks ...... It is not their fault..... living under a communist / socialist system for so long will do that to you!!! But what I don't understand is that every human being is born with a certain IQ and the force and cogence with which I have tried explaining myself.. something would seep in............ but oh well. You have a chance to open your mind and come out of your shell... something people in countries like N Korea, China etc donot have, but still you want to take it.
I will stop rambling and wasting bandwidth now.

Well the extrems are always dangerious. To have freedom of expression or not is not the only way. Middle grouds exist and they are much safer. In the present case the middle ground is to have a freedom of expression as long as it doesn't really (I mean really) hurt anybody.

Again you are taking it personally when you said "I will stop rambling and wasting bandwidth now". I think the aim of this debate or talk is to conclude and reach the right way and not the my way. It is possible that you are not able to truly demostarte ur concern. If you wish we can continue this talk in private thread.

 

[yatinder19]

Nothing new, already been done by our ancestors in various temples around India. This fake morality people talk about these days is a result of centuries of rule by the Muslims. The British came in and smartly took advantage of this narrow minded thinking (they wanted to keep us ignorant and mentally blocked) and drafted it into our constitution where this legacy remain till this day. You are trying to protect this fake morality that was'nt your creation in the first place.

There is nothing to get inspired by Mohammed - there is no visual record of him. As far as Mr Hussain is concerned, I am not very familiar with his work except those Goddess paintings, I would not be bothered at all by it because it does not concern me, I am financially incapable of buying it and honestly and truthfully - I am not a big fan of his work, I got other things that are important in my life like my family, my financial status and my freedom. If actions by the government or the moral police encroach on any of those things - thats when I speak out.

You have asked me a lot of questions, let me ask you one......
Why are you with the moral police and the government. Please do this for me... sit down for a few minutes........ go over your life till now...... and think what the government has done for you.........
Please take into account....
Public services (Roads, water, electricity, housing, cleanliness)
Education (please remember how hard it is to get into so-called government higher education quality institutes in India, the government schools funded by taxpayers money are a disgrace)
Public Safety (Police, fire department)
Individual Freedom (like the issue discussed in this thread - being slapped by BJP guy and no action from the government)
Law and Order (can you get justice in India?)
Economy (We are filled with pride when India gets *****y call-center and back office work from US and Europe- with the size of our population we should be employing the Europeans and Americans - shame on the government and shame on us for not seeing through the game this government is playing)
Employment (There is employment in IT sector and thats it - which is a totally private initiative)

There are many more things............

Now rate the achievements of the government (whose agenda about moral policing you sympathesize with!) from a scale of 1-10.

I would give it a BIG 0.

Sid...U started thread with a topic...n now u r talking about Govt/policies/education blah blah blah...
Better discuss other things in different thread...