ATTENTION!!!!!!!Jaat Reservation Polling
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My dear khatkar, in Haryana jats are around 26% & not 36%, we jats will not be in majority in OBC also (in Haryana may be) and if it generate competition than it is more batter. We should be clear that we are talking here on reservation for jats & not only jats of Haryana, secondly, does reservation stops our brothers competing for open seats. I also would like to submit here that we shouldnot be under wrong impression that no other community in OBC can compete with jats, they are no less, hence competion will remain intact in open as well as in reserve seats. I am aware that not even 5% of jat yougth population is member of jatland, but still, I think majority of us here opted for reservation. regards
Sandeep,
Reservation is a very emotional subject for its supporters. Logic and numbers are a waste on them.
Reservation is a very emotional subject for its supporters. Logic and numbers are a waste on them.
sunillathwal
New member
Statement in red is NOT entirely true.
Taking your analysis slightly further, even reserved seats have different categories (as u already mentioned), You will NEVER find OBC candidates cluttering the bottom of the raw merit list, rather they will be uniformly distributed form top to bottom. Reasons: Many... Shear large numbers of OBC candidates, most candidates are no different (in terms of resources, IQ, competence) to general category candidates. Bottom clutters in competitive exams merit lists are STs not OBC; e.g. Meenas in Civil services (which is very unfortunate, as Meenas do not deserve to be in ST, they are as resourceful/ well to do/ social status,etc.. as any other Forward Caste in India). So what happens here is the 'original tribes' (North-Easterners, Andaman Nicobar islanders, Adivasis, etc.) have to compete with all powerful Meenas (...few more castes in Maharashtra such as Pals) and hence no competition.
The main problem with reservation is: though it is/was well intended.. many castes truly deserved it, yet it failed spectacularly!! Only a handful of people among such castes reaped the benefits and they are doing it again and again.. leaving the real deserver far behind. :-(
Make no mistake my friend, OBC is not the same as ST. Yes, there is a huge difference in cut-off marks for general category and ST category lists but same is not the case with OBC list.. Margin in cut-offs for OBC and general lists is very very less!! and i don't believe that once you are in OBC, you can lower your guard.. No !!
Your argument is flawed (... and annoying). There is NO such thing as EXCLUSION from the General category. General has its 'literal' meaning GENERAL i.e, for all.. everybody included. Period. if such EXCLUSIONs exist, reservation will loose its meaning. By reading your point 2, i am not sure if know how reservation works. As far as i know this is how 'it' works:
Total 100 seats in a exam: 50 % reserved rest 50 % General category. Names with top 50 marks (irrespective of their categories sc, st , or obc) are put into general category. Let us assume cut-off is 60 marks... For OBC category: 'system'' looks for next 'top- 27' candidates (who applied as OBC ) with marks lesser than 60 (anyone, say with 70 marks, will be automatically shifted to general list, he/she won't waste any of the 27 reserved seats ).. and it goes same way for SC/STs.
So, therortically it is possible that all 100 seats go to reserve categories and not even a single seat to Jats, baniyas, brahimans or punjabis!! At times there is minimum cut-off for each category and if all seats are not filled they generally go to back-log. Filling of such seats from general category is generally not allowed.
Again same thing, what is the situation now ?? Are we not giving cut-throat/-lung/-heart competition to fellow Jats now??
At one place u yourself mentioned that we will be eligible for 77% seats (as compared to only 50% which is the case today), and now u say competition will increase.. Tell me exactly.. how??
"No one in OBC category have guts to face Jat" Hold your horses dude; Not all the Jats are Albert Einsteins and neither all those in current OBC are moron..
Even if i assume that an average jat candidate has significantly higher IQ than the candidate belonging to the other OBCs, still you will be WRONG!! A simple IQ distribution curve will tell you that. Average of A vs average of B does not work here; there will be 30,000 OBC applicants for 100 OBC seats.
Are you sure that not even one candidate from other OBCs is smarter than top 100 jats?? I disagree.
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Sunil,
The reasoning in Sandeep's post is not as flawed as you are making it out to be.
1) How do you back up your claim that OBC are uniformly present in the merit list? Any statistics?
An OBC who is getting allied services in general category in CSE might be eligible for IAS in OBC category. Which one would he/she choose? He would vacate the seat in general category that might/might not be refilled by an OBC (who is as good as general)....but his moving into OBC category will definitely take away one seat from OBC. This is the competition Sandeep was indicating in his post.
2) You do admit that "The main problem with reservation is: though it is/was well intended.. many castes truly deserved it, yet it failed spectacularly!! Only a handful of people among such castes reaped the benefits and they are doing it again and again.. leaving the real deserver far behind".
How do you expect to make it better for Jats? Any magic wand? Oh yes, there is Gurnam Singh Report.
2) Do you think jats would dominate in OBCs as Meenas' are in SC/ST?
3) So, you think access to OBC and general categories (that Sandeep also quoted as 50+27=77% of the total seats) would motivate our poor Jat bandhu, who all of a sudden will develop resources, competence that they otherwise lack without reservation?
Regards
The reasoning in Sandeep's post is not as flawed as you are making it out to be.
1) How do you back up your claim that OBC are uniformly present in the merit list? Any statistics?
An OBC who is getting allied services in general category in CSE might be eligible for IAS in OBC category. Which one would he/she choose? He would vacate the seat in general category that might/might not be refilled by an OBC (who is as good as general)....but his moving into OBC category will definitely take away one seat from OBC. This is the competition Sandeep was indicating in his post.
2) You do admit that "The main problem with reservation is: though it is/was well intended.. many castes truly deserved it, yet it failed spectacularly!! Only a handful of people among such castes reaped the benefits and they are doing it again and again.. leaving the real deserver far behind".
How do you expect to make it better for Jats? Any magic wand? Oh yes, there is Gurnam Singh Report.
2) Do you think jats would dominate in OBCs as Meenas' are in SC/ST?
3) So, you think access to OBC and general categories (that Sandeep also quoted as 50+27=77% of the total seats) would motivate our poor Jat bandhu, who all of a sudden will develop resources, competence that they otherwise lack without reservation?
Regards
jitendershooda
New member
This is what is happening these days. Adhi jankari janleva ho sakti hai ..... aur ye to poori ki poori jankari hi galat lagti hai ....
Anjoo ---- kya aap in baton ko prove kar sakti hein .... ke jo khatkar saab ne likha hai wo sahi likha hai ... system aise hi kaam kar raha hai desh mein aaj kal ....
Sunil Lathwal has replied in full ..... counter those replies with facts ... ho sakta hai humari jankari galat ho bharat mein reservation application par ....
Please find comments inline ....
Anjoo ---- kya aap in baton ko prove kar sakti hein .... ke jo khatkar saab ne likha hai wo sahi likha hai ... system aise hi kaam kar raha hai desh mein aaj kal ....
Sunil Lathwal has replied in full ..... counter those replies with facts ... ho sakta hai humari jankari galat ho bharat mein reservation application par ....
Reservation for jats will only be GOLDEN OPPURTUNITIES FOR BRAHMIS, BANIYA , REFUGEES.........
In central government funded higher education institutions, 22.5% of available seats are reserved for Scheduled Caste (Dalit) and Scheduled Tribe (Adivasi) students (15% for SCs, 7.5% for STs). This reservation percentage has been raised to 49.5%, by including an additional 27% reservation for OBCs .
Now I am going to make the analysis of situation, if jat will fall under reservation in OBC category.Haryana with 50% forward classes (as per central govt. data).If jats with 36 % population in haryana will fall into OBC category:-
1. That means only 14 % population will left out in forward classes. In this situation, no doubt, jats will be eligible for 77% seats, but then jats will put minds in competition preparation keeping the OBC in target not General category that is human nature also.( UPSC or every competition merit list are evidence that reserved categories candidates clustered at bottom of list).
Jitender - I have provided analysis myself from Haryana PMT results where Yadav's increased their candidature and success %. So this claim is just hypothetical and not stand true in practical. Please any of the people against it prove this wrong.
Here I would like to quote Anjoo ...
<quote>Sandeep,
Reservation is a very emotional subject for its supporters. Logic and numbers are a waste on them.
2. Post reservation Brahmins, baniyas, refugees etc. will enjoy benefits with less competition in General category as result of exclusion of 36 % jats from General category.( In present situation only jats are giving the tough competitions to Brahmins, baniyas , refugee etc. in every field & day by day jats are marching towards Everest.)
Jitender -
Brother read Sunil's post where he clearly explained how reservation works. You will be surprised to know that in that case jats will too compete in general and candidates who were in general will be considered there only and they will not fill OBC seat giving way to some other OBC candidate in queue.
3. Under 27% quota for OBC, we jats with majority in this category will give throat cutting competition to our own jat community as no one other in OBC category have guts to face jat.
Jitender- Please read Sunil's post.
One thing I will like to point out here that still they will give cut-throat competition ... hehe which everyone is denying without any practical data.
Please find comments inline ....
Same will happen with our poor jats , on the name of reservation proponents are asking for reservation.The poor jats in village does not know what is happening on jatland & what will happen inside the parliament.Again these handful will enjoy the benefits on the name of their poor jat bhai.Socio backward jat will remain fruitless.
Jitender, I have replied to Sunil's post with as much fact as he presented to counter Sandeep's post.
In addition, Sunil's post says that OBCs can be found uniformly from top to bottom in the merit list. He goes on to say that OBCs have competence and resources that are on par with general categories. The key words are "resources and competence" and not reservation that enabled those OBCs to come in the merit of a "General Category".
My apologies for highlighting the emotional stuff in your post...
Regards
In addition, Sunil's post says that OBCs can be found uniformly from top to bottom in the merit list. He goes on to say that OBCs have competence and resources that are on par with general categories. The key words are "resources and competence" and not reservation that enabled those OBCs to come in the merit of a "General Category".
My apologies for highlighting the emotional stuff in your post...
Regards
sunillathwal
New member
No, i don't have pakka statistics. This is what i have observed. i m not sure 'what' kind of list sandeep is talking about but in many composite lists (entrance exam) reserved category candidates are bound to appear at bottom for the obvious reasons (cut off is lower).
No?? Someone 'up' in the list won't be so obvious to find.. how do you make out if some OBC candidate is in the general list... by name?? so many people use common surnames singh, Kumar etc. Anyway, it is no secret that as compared to ST/SC, OBC cut-off are much much higher.
1a: Anju ji, you have taken a very very special case!! What about exams with 'single entry' like recent 4000 Constables recuritment, 400 SI in delhi police.. separate exam for each, UDCs, Bank PO.. SSC (well some might have multiple entries from a single list), DAAS, JBT techers, then BEd techers, lecturers.. i mean compare CSE with other single entry exams. no such situation here.. right??
1b: How the situation u mentioned, is any better than not having OBC category privilege?? Compare "with OBC reservation" vs "without OBC reservation'' and tell me how cogent is your argument !!
No matter what that 'OBC candidate in question ' does: 27 % seat will be filled by OBC candidates.
Him/her choosing 'reservation option' might deprive 27+ %'s fellow of a job but thats additional perk. You can also say, a more competent general category candidate is being deprived of the job IF that 'OBC\ fellow chooses the general category option!!Suppose, IF he/she was not an OBC then-- take or leave the allied services !! No option of upgrading to IFS/IAS/IPS. :-(
Anyway, Sandeep's indictment was not the same. (i am sure).
Ok, i was trying hard not to indulge in this thread. Caste- based reservation has NO meaning. Any Jat having a laptop or based in city or with parents on job (being in or out of Creemy layer) does NOT need any reservation.
I don't know how far you people are form the ground realties in villages. I belong to a village and i know how pathetic the situation really is!!
If yadavs and meena with stable income, good job, convent educated Kid with full exposure to opporutnities, deserve reservations... hell 'every single Jat' in village deserve reservation!!
Here is the crux: Give them (i mean Jats with poor background) reservation, they again have to compete with fellow Jats who do not deserve 'it' in first place.
Those who are opposing reservation, those who think Jats (... and they) do NOT need reservation.. very simple. Do NOT take it. Apply under 'general category'.. also make sure your kids do the same.
Lat's face it, we are born selfish. No one will give up a chance to join IIT (with Reservation) over Another engineering college (w/o R)
No, i don't think so. But yaah, i believe Jats will have a fair share.. simple statistic again.
Good thing: it will be in addition to whatever they will get w/o OBC tag!! But reservation does not lower the odd either!!
3) So, you think access to OBC and general categories (that Sandeep also quoted as 50+27=77% of the total seats) would motivate our poor Jat bandhu, who all of a sudden will develop resources, competence that they otherwise lack without reservation?
Regards
Again, will reservation lower the odd??
resources, competence!! there is another word: Chances,.. Attempt.
Struggling for one seat out of 77 seats is always better than fighting for one seat out of 50. and given that these additional 27 seat will be a lower threshold chances are that some more Jats will get job.
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Anju,
Reservation is no magic wand to remove all the trouble Jats are facing today. But no one can deny that reservation has certain benefits also.
1) If JATs are given OBC reservation. Competition will increase in OBC categories which means OBC quality will improve.
No??(of course it will be still lower than general quota but higher than what it is today in OBC
)2) Many kind of 'fees' will be lower. Might not be problem with NRIs or software engineers wards. But for ppl with modest background.. matters a lot.
3) Number of 'attempts' will be more many jobs.
4) Age-relaxation in many jobs.
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In last 2-3 years, over TWENTY Thousands constables were recruited by Delhi Police. Most of these 'rangroots' are from villages.... mostly from Hayana, western UP, Rural Delhi and Rajasthan... and i believe a lot of them are JATs.
Had JATs from haryana in OBC, out of these additional 27 % atleast 10% would have been JATs.
I can assure you many of those who attempted (over 60 from my village) for these Jobs DESERVE reservation.
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Dear khatkar & anjoo, I can assure you no sentiment is involved except that the discrimination has been done to our community and that is fact. my sweet brother, may I know all disadvantages of reservation by your logic. One more logical fact for your kind information that what ever few seats left for general cat , are either sold at high price or go to those who are already in power ( politicians & beaurocrates + business houses) thus hardly any scope left for even hard working & intelligent jat people. Many times few brothers mentioned that jat leaders will make use of reservation, I would like to mention here that the discussion is goingon on jatland & I donot think that all those favouring reservation, are jat leaders or even politicians, Therefore why are we douting their sincere service to the community & even some of us make use of the provision of reservation, let him do it he is also a jat.
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rajkphogat
Banned
tanne sharam to nahi aawti jaat hon me.
Bhai prashnt jaatan key jo balak padh ja se unney te kise te compete kara ley er jo pade nahi we chahe kissey caste ke ho.
sunillathwal
New member
Exactly the point.. though many OBCs have the competence, yet they are reaping the additional benefits.
If OBCs were so ridden down that without reservation they could not compete with other forward castes /Jats here, reservation make some sense but as of now many JATs have double disadvantage!!
First, they are not as 'resourceful';
Second, they have to compete for lesser seats and outperform OBC by a 'margin'!!
Don't you think it is unfair that some 'unresourceful (if thats a word)' poor village guy has to 'perform' much better than 'resourceful' OBC candidate ?
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But one thing is not clear what kind of reservation JATs are asking..
1 ) Simple inclusion in OBC list (Reservation 27 %). (It will piss-off many of those who are already in OBC list).
OR
2) Inclusion in OBC list with increase in OBC reservation from 27 % to (xy) %. (If it increases, it should piss-off remaining general category castes, BTW 50+ % reservation is very much possible in India, Tamilnadu has 69%).
OR
3) Some sub-category under OBC or BC with some % reservation. ( on the same line as is being demanded by/for Muslims in few states)
I don't know if it is good or excellent.....
Sooner or later OBC Reservation will be called off by Central Govt covering all sorts of jobs (in states too)
Only SC & ST.
With Certain Castes like Meena or Pals exclusion.
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Reservation has advantage for sure so no mathematics of percentages needed.
'World is shrinking and opportunities are widening ' ---This is my logic for Anti Reservation.
JATs mostly in Armed Forces are enjoying reservation in term of Ex-serviceman and their wards getting seats in esteemed colleges. One should not overlook this thing.
Armed forces Colleges like AFMC Pune & numerous Engeering colleges.
Also those demanding reservation should understand that:
SHORT-CUT is TOO Long.
Sooner or later OBC Reservation will be called off by Central Govt covering all sorts of jobs (in states too)
Only SC & ST.
With Certain Castes like Meena or Pals exclusion.
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Reservation has advantage for sure so no mathematics of percentages needed.
'World is shrinking and opportunities are widening ' ---This is my logic for Anti Reservation.
JATs mostly in Armed Forces are enjoying reservation in term of Ex-serviceman and their wards getting seats in esteemed colleges. One should not overlook this thing.
Armed forces Colleges like AFMC Pune & numerous Engeering colleges.
Also those demanding reservation should understand that:
SHORT-CUT is TOO Long.
Pls note the inserts in blue+CAPS, thanks
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Sunil, I do agree with you on many points. I do not deny the benefits of reservation. But for whom and at what cost? The divide between have's and have nots will get wider, and those who deserve it will still be attending rallies for their "haq".
Anyway, it is no secret that as compared to ST/SC, OBC cut-off are much much higher.
There are only two groups- the ones who make it via reservation, and the ones who make it without reservation. Better cut off than SC/ST is a feel-good factor.
1a: Anju ji, you have taken a very very special case!! What about exams with 'single entry' like recent 4000 Constables recuritment, 400 SI in delhi police.. separate exam for each, UDCs, Bank PO.. SSC (well some might have multiple entries from a single list), DAAS, JBT techers, then BEd techers, lecturers.. i mean compare CSE with other single entry exams. no such situation here.. right??
What happens in CSE would apply to medical, engineering colleges, or other professional colleges where the merit list decides the stream a student would get. As you have indicated, I am guessing that jats are already dominating in Police SI, Constable, JBT, BEd, Lecturership posts in Haryana.
1b: How the situation u mentioned, is any better than not having OBC category privilege?? Compare "with OBC reservation" vs "without OBC reservation'' and tell me how cogent is your argument !!
No matter what that 'OBC candidate in question ' does: 27 % seat will be filled by OBC candidates.
Suppose, IF he/she was not an OBC then-- take or leave the allied services !! No option of upgrading to IFS/IAS/IPS. :-(
Anyway, Sandeep's indictment was not the same. (i am sure).
Sandeep talked about competition in different communities in the same category. I prefer competence to community, hence the example was of competence.
If yadavs and meena with stable income, good job, convent educated Kid with full exposure to opporutnities, deserve reservations... hell 'every single Jat' in village deserve reservation!!
What applies to yadavs, would also apply to jats- It will be jats "with stable income, good job, convent educated Kid with full exposure to opporutnities, deserve reservations", and may be a few jats living in villages, with no resources.
Here is the crux: Give them (i mean Jats with poor background) reservation, they again have to compete with fellow Jats who do not deserve 'it' in first place.-AGREE WITH YOU.
Those who are opposing reservation, those who think Jats (... and they) do NOT need reservation.. very simple. Do NOT take it. Apply under 'general category'.. also make sure your kids do the same.
Lat's face it, we are born selfish. No one will give up a chance to join IIT (with Reservation) over Another engineering college (w/o R)
Do I also have a choice to say I am not backward when my whole community is backward?
No, i don't think so. But yaah, i believe Jats will have a fair share.. simple statistic again.
Good thing: it will be in addition to whatever they will get w/o OBC tag!! But reservation does not lower the odd either!!
Again, will reservation lower the odd??
resources, competence!! there is another word: Chances,.. Attempt.
Struggling for one seat out of 77 seats is always better than fighting for one seat out of 50. and given that these additional 27 seat will be a lower threshold chances are that some more Jats will get job.
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Anju,
Reservation is no magic wand to remove all the trouble Jats are facing today. But no one can deny that reservation has certain benefits also.
1) If JATs are given OBC reservation. Competition will increase in OBC categories which means OBC quality will improve.
(of course it will be still lower than general quota but higher than what it is today in OBC
2) Many kind of 'fees' will be lower. Might not be problem with NRIs or software engineers wards. But for ppl with modest background.. matters a lot.
3) Number of 'attempts' will be more many jobs.
4) Age-relaxation in many jobs.
----------------------------------
In last 2-3 years, over TWENTY Thousands constables were recruited by Delhi Police. Most of these 'rangroots' are from villages.... mostly from Hayana, western UP, Rural Delhi and Rajasthan... and i believe a lot of them are JATs.
Had JATs from haryana in OBC, out of these additional 27 % atleast 10% would have been JATs.
I can assure you many of those who attempted (over 60 from my village) for these Jobs DESERVE reservation.
chhillarneha
New member
i completely disagree...its lame asking for reservations anywhere...i dont think a capable person needs any kind of support or as you are calling it here ReSeRvAtIoN..!!
stop such useless discussions..
stop such useless discussions..
yudhvirmor
New member
I don't think its useless discussions. I don't support reservation but Still couple of us are raising very valid points in the favor of reservation. I am not sure how you figured out that this a Lame thinking.
We encourage everybody to put their point of view and discuss it here..
chhillarneha
New member
i find it useless..i have friends who couldnot get into some of the top colleges just because of this QuOtA thingy...LAME..!! its not their fault that they belong to the general quota..c'mon we need to get out of this..and make others realize its effects too..
yudhvirmor
New member
I agree with your point.. Good to see that you are participating.. Can you elaborate more on " Realizing others" please..
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