drrajpalsingh
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AAPNE SAHI FARMAYA : Phir bhi khoj jaari hai.
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Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions
- Thread starter drrajpalsingh
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AAPNE SAHI FARMAYA : Phir bhi khoj jaari hai.
AAPNE SAHI FARMAYA : Phir bhi khoj jaari hai.
Aur mera prashan hoga: Phir bhi kyon?
Is paper mein kuch samjaya gaya hai ki Hittite or Babylon mein Arya kaise pahunche. Inke vichar bhi krantikari hain, jaise ki Talageri ke. Mere vichar se har kisi koh aise paper padne chaaiyen.
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/Akhenaten.pdf
Abhi tak jo padha hai, yeh uske vipreet sochne ka tarika hai. Aapne pahle kuch tathye upar diye the, lekin unka koi bhi sandharb nahin diya tha. Bharat mein kuch aisa hi hai. sub aasani se maan lete hain ki Arya bahar se aaye the kyonki yeh kuch inscriptions hain pad loh aur chup chap maan loh. Upar diya gaya paper kuch alag hi batata hai aur is tarah ke kaafi-kuch paper aaj kal padhne ko mil jaynge.
Apki aur baaki logon ki raay jaanaa choonga?
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drrajpalsingh
New member
Aur mera prashan hoga: Phir bhi kyon?
Aapne pahle kuch tathye upar diye the, lekin unka koi bhi sandharb nahin diya tha.
Bharat mein kuch aisa hi hai. sub aasani se maan lete hain ki Arya bahar se aaye the kyonki yeh kuch inscriptions hain pad loh aur chup chap maan loh. Upar diya gaya paper kuch alag hi batata hai aur is tarah ke kaafi-kuch paper aaj kal padhne ko mil jaynge.
Apki aur baaki logon ki raay jaanaa choonga?
Dost,
Ap kaunse tathye ke sandarbh nahin dene ki baat kar rahe ho. Specific batayen, kaushish rahegi ki sandarbha quote kiya ja sake.
Bharat ke logon ke bare mein ''asani se maan lene'' ki aap ki dharana sahi parteet nahin hoti.
Sawal Bharat ke aur videsh ke scholars ka nahin, Aryon ke mool niwas sthan ka hai, jiski khoj mein hum likh rahe hain.
Jab tak niskrash tak nahin pahunchate charcha chalti rahni chahiye.
Dhanyavad.
drrajpalsingh
New member
AAPNE SAHI FARMAYA : Phir bhi khoj jaari hai.
....
Aur mera prashan hoga: Phir bhi kyon?
.......
Ek aitihasik paheli ko suljhane ke prayas ke rup mein, aisi charcha jaroori hai !
Dost,
Ap kaunse tathye ke sandarbh nahin dene ki baat kar rahe ho. Specific batayen, kaushish rahegi ki sandarbha quote kiya ja sake.
Bharat ke logon ke bare mein ''asani se maan lene'' ki aap ki dharana sahi parteet nahin hoti.
aapke dwara diye gaye doh mool tathyon ki aur dhyan dena chaoonga, jisme sandharb bilkul naadaarad theh.
i) pehle toh aapne avesta ka prayog liya, yeh batane ke liye ki arya afghanistan mein pehle se hi the, lekin yeh sandharb nahin dekha ki, avesta toh Rig ved ke baad ka granth hai na ki pehle ka. Yeh bada mahtvapoorn sandharb hai.
ii) doosra sandharb hai jab aapne mittani or kassites ke inscriptions toh likh diye lekin yeh sandharb nahin diya ke yeh Rig Ved se pehle ke hain ya baad ke. Unke bina sandharb ke likhne ka kya prayay tha.
Sawal Bharat ke aur videsh ke scholars ka nahin, Aryon ke mool niwas sthan ka hai, jiski khoj mein hum likh rahe hain.
Jab tak niskrash tak nahin pahunchate charcha chalti rahni chahiye.
Dhanyavad.
Mein kuch samaj nahin pa raha hun aapki baatein.
Pahle toh aap central asia ki taraf gaye aryans ke mool sthan ki khoj ke liye, jaise ki uttarkuru.
Ab lagta hai ki aap ke hisab se middle east jayada aacha sthan hai aryans ka mool niwas kyoki wahan kuch inscriptions mile hain jinme kuch shabad mile hain jo indo-aryans se milte hain (1300 - 1750 BCE). Isse pahle aapne kudh likha tha ki 1500 BCE ke aas paas Aryans ka samay hoh hi nahin sakta, isse badi uljhane paida hoh jayengi Bharat ke itihas mein. In dono mein se kon si jagah aap ko adhik suit karti hai Aryans ke mool niwas ki aap ki vichar se.
Kya yeh mumkin nahin ki Arya Bharat mein hi theh. Aaap yeh vilkap maannte hain ya nahin. eak chota sa prashan?
Isshi sandharb mein mere dwara, yeh paper diya gaya tha:
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/Akhenaten.pdf
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drrajpalsingh
New member
aapke dwara diye gaye doh mool tathyon ki aur dhyan dena chaoonga, jisme sandharb bilkul naadaarad theh.
i) pehle toh aapne avesta ka prayog liya, yeh batane ke liye ki arya afghanistan mein pehle se hi the, lekin yeh sandharb nahin dekha ki, avesta toh Rig ved ke baad ka granth hai na ki pehle ka. Yeh bada mahtvapoorn sandharb hai.
ii) doosra sandharb hai jab aapne mittani or kassites ke inscriptions toh likh diye lekin yeh sandharb nahin diya ke yeh Rig Ved se pehle ke hain ya baad ke. Unke bina sandharb ke likhne ka kya prayay tha.
Mein kuch samaj nahin pa raha hun aapki baatein.
Pahle toh aap central asia ki taraf gaye aryans ke mool sthan ki khoj ke liye, jaise ki uttarkuru.
Ab lagta hai ki aap ke hisab se middle east jayada aacha sthan hai aryans ka mool niwas kyoki wahan kuch inscriptions mile hain jinme kuch shabad mile hain jo indo-aryans se milte hain (1300 - 1750 BCE). Isse pahle aapne kudh likha tha ki 1500 BCE ke aas paas Aryans ka samay hoh hi nahin sakta, isse badi uljhane paida hoh jayengi Bharat ke itihas mein. In dono mein se kon si jagah aap ko adhik suit karti hai Aryans ke mool niwas ki aap ki vichar se.
Kya yeh mumkin nahin ki Arya Bharat mein hi theh. Aaap yeh vilkap maannte hain ya nahin. eak chota sa prashan?
Isshi sandharb mein mere dwara, yeh paper diya gaya tha:
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/Akhenaten.pdf
Dost,
Sodh ka silsila jari hai abhi bahut se padav dekhne hain; abhi se ghabra gaye to aage kya hoga !
Maine kabhi bhi Aryans ke mool niwas ke baare mein discussion ka niskrash nahin diya hai.
Hain, jo vibhin vicharkon ke sodh hain unke aadhar pe charcha ko aage badhaya hai.
Aisa isliye kee abhi latest khojon ke prinaam samane aa rahe hain.
Main aapki is baat ko bhi ushi nazriye se le raha hun ki kuchh log Bharat ko bhi Aryans ka mool niwas sthan manate hain.
Lekin agar koi purvagrah se grisat hokar kisi discussion mein bhag leta hai to woh nai khoj ka labh nahin utha sakata,
isliya mein abhi kuchh sikhne ki tamana rakhta huan aur sabhi viklapon ke liya khule man se charcha karane ke baad hi
aap ke antim chhote se prashan ka uttar de pawunga.
Meri sithithi is samaya Ek kavi ke shabdon me kuchh is prakar bayaon ki ja sakati hai:
Manzil mile na mile iska mujhe gam nahin !
Akhir Manzil ke talaash mein mera karwan jo hai !!
drrajpalsingh
New member
A link on the Aryan original home problem : http://archive.worldhistoria.com/genetic-evidence-ends-aryan-origin-theory_topic25751.html
and
One more site link on the same issue : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbJ2lnvvPYg
Share your comments on these two papers, if you please.
and
One more site link on the same issue : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbJ2lnvvPYg
Share your comments on these two papers, if you please.
drrajpalsingh
New member
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Kya yeh mumkin nahin ki Arya Bharat mein hi theh. Aaap yeh vilkap maannte hain ya nahin. eak chota sa prashan?
Isshi sandharb mein mere dwara, yeh paper diya gaya tha:
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/Akhenaten.pdf
Dost,
Sodh jari hai, kuchh bhi namumkeen nahin !!
Link mein ulekhit paper vihhin kshetron mein rahane wale Aryans mein saghan sambhndh sthapit karane mein safal raha hai;
lekin,
Origin ke mool niwas ka nirnayak nahin kaha ja sakata.
Abhi aur tathya jutane kee zaroorat hai.
Koushish zari rahani chahiya, awashya safalta milegi !
A link on the Aryan original home problem : http://archive.worldhistoria.com/genetic-evidence-ends-aryan-origin-theory_topic25751.html
and
One more site link on the same issue : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbJ2lnvvPYg
Share your comments on these two papers, if you please.
Pehle toh aap yeh tay kar lijye, ki aapko Aryans ka niwas doondna hai ya Aryans ka mool niwas, jab woh Aryans kahlaye nahin gaye.
Upar diye gaye links toh Aryans ke sthan ki baat kar rahe hain, jo ki bilkul galat hai, kahin bhi mool sthan ki baat nahin kar rahe.
First post on the Historia forum the contributor ends with picture of Ahura Mazda, which we know cannot be before 1500-1700 BCE. Uski pehle post mein Aryans ko Bharat mein 1500 BCE mein dikhaya gaya hai joi ki cental asia ke shan se 2000 BCE mein nikal kar bharat pahoonche. Aap bhali bhanti jaante hain ki Rig Ved to isse pehle aaya hai toh phir baake padne ka koi tuk hi nahin banta.
You tube video, in my opinion does not even have entertainment value, leave aside historical value. Jisne woh video banaya hai, usne Ved kabhi padhe hi nahin. Pehle Aryans bolta hai phir Scythians or Saka mein jaake dubak jaata hai.
Issmein koi doroi nahin ki agar Rig Ved mein jinko aryans kaha gaya hai, who Sindhu aur Ganga ke beech mein rahte theh. Pehle Ganga-Jamuna -aur Saraswati ke beech ke sthan mein rahte the aur phir shn-shn paschim ki aur badte chale gaye.
My recommendation, everything started from Africa, so look no further than that. Aap mool sthan Africa se khojna sooroh keejye, aap mool hi nahin, poori jud tak pahunch jayenge. Poora baans bansoori saab kuch mil jayega. If you do not mind my writing all this.
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drrajpalsingh
New member
Pehle toh aap yeh tay kar lijye, ki aapko Aryans ka niwas doondna hai ya Aryans ka mool niwas, jab woh Aryans kahlaye nahin gaye.
Upar diye gaye links toh Aryans ke sthan ki baat kar rahe hain, jo ki bilkul galat hai, kahin bhi mool sthan ki baat nahin kar rahe.
First post on the Historia forum the contributor ends with picture of Ahura Mazda, which we know cannot be before 1500-1700 BCE. Uski pehle post mein Aryans ko Bharat mein 1500 BCE mein dikhaya gaya hai joi ki cental asia ke shan se 2000 BCE mein nikal kar bharat pahoonche. Aap bhali bhanti jaante hain ki Rig Ved to isse pehle aaya hai toh phir baake padne ka koi tuk hi nahin banta.
You tube video, in my opinion does not even have entertainment value, leave aside historical value. Jisne woh video banaya hai, usne Ved kabhi padhe hi nahin. Pehle Aryans bolta hai phir Scythians or Saka mein jaake dubak jaata hai.
Issmein koi doroi nahin ki agar Rig Ved mein jinko aryans kaha gaya hai, who Sindhu aur Ganga ke beech mein rahte theh. Pehle Ganga-Jamuna -aur Saraswati ke beech ke sthan mein rahte the aur phir shn-shn paschim ki aur badte chale gaye.
My recommendation, everything started from Africa, so look no further than that. Aap mool sthan Africa se khojna sooroh keejye, aap mool hi nahin, poori jud tak pahunch jayenge. Poora baans bansoori saab kuch mil jayega. If you do not mind my writing all this.
Dr. Kak whom do you refer as guide to find out the original home of the Aryans himself has tentative conclusion to offer as he is not sure about the validity of his study as is clear from a quote from his paper "........Irrespective of what the original movement of Indo-aryans.............................in the Puranas" Kindly see, for details, p. 641 para II of his paper.http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/Akhenaten.pdf
Dr. Kak whom do you refer as guide to find out the original home of the Aryans himself has tentative conclusion to offer as he is not sure about the validity of his study as is clear from a quote from his paper "........Irrespective of what the original movement of Indo-aryans.............................in the Puranas" Kindly see, for details, p. 641 para II of his paper.http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/Akhenaten.pdf
Rajpal ji,
Sure he concludes that, as this line of study is rather new and does not have all the support of over 70 years of Aryan invasion/immigration storyline that has existed till now. This view is going against decades of deeply entrenched scholarship. Maybe it will be built upon in future. At least we cannot blindly believe (as asserted by orientalists), that Aryans originated from outside. That is precisely because of efforts provided by Bhagwan Singh, B.B Lal, Talageri and Kak to name a few, which people should be encouraged to read and include in debates.
Dr Natthan Singh even provides a very unique thesis to all this by saying that not only Aryans were local but goes a step further. He says that Aryans not only emigrated out of ancient India but centuries later a few immigrated back in (I am sure some in the form of invaders from central Asia). I have to re-read his book to understand it now. It may explain why lot of central asian tribes were assimilated among Jats, Gujars and Rajputs.
In fact, I have not seen anybody come out with a paper recently about Aryan invasion model at all. I think even Romilla Thapar, who was a staunch Aryan invasion theorist earlier most of her academic life, seems to have come around on this concept. I will try to get that paper about it.
Maybe, in this forum it will take a little longer to understand the implications of this view. Evidence for Aryans originating outside of Sapt-Sindhu seems to be eluding, however.
Another interesting book on this issue by B.B. Lal with research focus on a unique topic written in 2005: http://www.vedicbooks.net/homeland-aryans-evidence-rigvedic-flora-fauna-archaeology-p-13816.html
I would like to point to just one of the animals listed in this book, Mahisa meaning bhains or water buffalo. Jats will easily identify this animal and not too long ago, every Jat household had this animal. It was an important animal than and is an important animal now too, a continuity. Ravinderjeet recently posted a picture of a bhains which was worth Re. 1 crore (close to $200000) ! That is how dear Mahisa is and should be.
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Dost,
Agaar aap aitihasik sources ke saath apni posts likenge to hum bhi aap se kuchh sikhlenge; Nahin to jo hum kah rahe hain use dhyan se padh kar isi subject pe dusre vidwanon ne jo sodh kiya hua hai woh dekhne ke baad likhoge to vad-vivad, churcha ya discussion ka kuchh arth hoga.
Aap hamesha yah yad rakho ki aap aur mein jo koshish kar rahe hain woh koi aisa vishya nahin hai jisme pahle baar do logon ke vichar praspar nahin mil rahe hon; yeh bahash World Level ke scholars ke madhya lagbhag do cdenturies ss chal rahi hai.
Lekin bina sabut ke jawab likhna aap ke hi bute ki baat hai. Misaal ke tor pe aap farmate hain :
Sarswati nadi 3000 BC mein tutani shuru hui,[Rigved mein kahan likha hai kripya post kijioyaga].
1900 BC mein bahni band ho gayi,? 1100 varsa lage tutane mein!!!
[Indiaan Saraswati aaj bhi bah rahi hai, Yamunanagar zile ke Aadi Badri sthan pe paharon se plains mein aati hai]
Rigveda ka nirman [ Jaise yeh koi building ya bandh ho?] 3000 BC se pehle hua.? [Aap yeh kis aadhar pe kah rahe ho]
Mahabharat ka nirman [Kitne karigaron ne kiya yeh nirman karya] 3000 BC se 1900 BC mein hua?
AAP KIS AADHAR PE KAH SAKTE HIN KI IRAN ITIYADI DESHON ME INSCRIPTIONAL EVIDENCE GALAT HAI;
Maine kis post mein yah likha hai ki Indo Aryan pahli bar bharat mein kab drishtigochar hote hain ?
Isliye nivedan hai ki tathyon ko sangrihit karne mein yogdaan dijiyaga, Ant mein, Tathyon pe adharit jawab ki injar rahegi !!!
Swal khoola hai : Aryon ka Mool Niwas sthan -- Tathya jo kahenge sabhi use swikaar kar lenge mein bhi aur aap bhi !
Aap in tathyon ke dekhen:
In RV 7.95.1-2, the Sarasvati is described as flowing to the samudra,
The first reference to the disapparance of the lower course of the Sarasvati is from the Brahmanas, texts that are composed in Vedic Sanskrit, but dating to a later date than the Veda Samhitas. The Jaiminiya Brahmana (2.297) speaks of the 'diving under (upamajjana) of the Sarasvati', and the Tandya Brahmana (or Pancavimsa Br.) calls this the 'disappearance' (vinasana).
According to the Mahabharata, the Sarasvati dried up in a desert (at a place named Vinasana or Adarsana);[19] after having disappeared in the desert, reappears in some places;[20] and joins the sea "impetuously".[21] MB.3.81.115 locates Kurukshetra to the south of the Sarasvati and north of the Drishadvati. Dried up seasonal Ghaggar River in Rajasthan and haryana reflects the same geographical view as described in Mahabharata.
Yeh jaankari yahan se praapt hui hai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River
In tahtyon se yeh nishkarsh nikaalna sahi hai ki Rigved mein Saraswati ke tootne ki koi jaankari nahin hai apitu baad mein likhe gaye granthon mein Saraswati nadi ke tootne ka sandarbh hai.
Rajpal ji,
Aabhi tak Sumerian ya Hittite ka aisa kuch inscription nahin mila hai Indus valley mein aur uske baad mein. 3000 se upar sthano mein khudai hoh chuki har, abhi tak Babylonia ya uske aas paas ka kuch nahin mila hai. Agar yeh Arya wahan se uth ke aaye the aur kubh inscriptions likha karte the toh phir unhon ne eakdam yahan aakar inscriptions likna kyon chod diya. Kya kuch adhik som rus pee rahe the kya.
Haan yeh baat awashye hai ki, Harappa ke avshesh jaise ki beads, seals ityaadi, pashchim mein har jagah prachoor matra mein mile hain, Jiroft mein, Mesopotamia mein, (Babylonia aur Sumer mein), Dilmun mein. Aisa kyon hai? Isse toh yahi prateet hota hai ki log yahan se uth kar wahan gaye the naa ki wahan se yahan aaye the.
Regarding search for earlier abode of Aryans, evidence points to Saraswati region of Haryana as the abode of Aryans who were influenced by tribes that moved from east (if you would recall Kasiraj). Phir bhi khoj jaari hai.
Aapki baat sau partishat sahi hai. Vakai me agar yeh arya bahar se aaye hote to inhone apni lipi mein bharat aakar likhna kyon choda?
drrajpalsingh
New member
Aap in tathyon ke dekhen:
In RV 7.95.1-2, the Sarasvati is described as flowing to the samudra,
The first reference to the disapparance of the lower course of the Sarasvati is from the Brahmanas, texts that are composed in Vedic Sanskrit, but dating to a later date than the Veda Samhitas. The Jaiminiya Brahmana (2.297) speaks of the 'diving under (upamajjana) of the Sarasvati', and the Tandya Brahmana (or Pancavimsa Br.) calls this the 'disappearance' (vinasana).
According to the Mahabharata, the Sarasvati dried up in a desert (at a place named Vinasana or Adarsana);[19] after having disappeared in the desert, reappears in some places;[20] and joins the sea "impetuously".[21] MB.3.81.115 locates Kurukshetra to the south of the Sarasvati and north of the Drishadvati. Dried up seasonal Ghaggar River in Rajasthan and haryana reflects the same geographical view as described in Mahabharata.
Yeh jaankari yahan se praapt hui hai: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_River
In tahtyon se yeh nishkarsh nikaalna sahi hai ki Rigved mein Saraswati ke tootne ki koi jaankari nahin hai apitu baad mein likhe gaye granthon mein Saraswati nadi ke tootne ka sandarbh hai.
Thanks for revising earlier stated issue on the River Sarswati.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Aapki baat sau partishat sahi hai. Vakai me agar yeh arya bahar se aaye hote to inhone apni lipi mein bharat aakar likhna kyon choda?
Aapka kis lipi ki aur isara hai !
drrajpalsingh
New member
Rajpal ji,
Sure he concludes that, as this line of study is rather new and does not have all the support of over 70 years of Aryan invasion/immigration storyline that has existed till now. This view is going against decades of deeply entrenched scholarship. Maybe it will be built upon in future. At least we cannot blindly believe (as asserted by orientalists), that Aryans originated from outside. That is precisely because of efforts provided by Bhagwan Singh, B.B Lal, Talageri and Kak to name a few, which people should be encouraged to read and include in debates.
Dr Natthan Singh even provides a very unique thesis to all this by saying that not only Aryans were local but goes a step further. He says that Aryans not only emigrated out of ancient India but centuries later a few immigrated back in (I am sure some in the form of invaders from central Asia). I have to re-read his book to understand it now. It may explain why lot of central asian tribes were assimilated among Jats, Gujars and Rajputs.
In fact, I have not seen anybody come out with a paper recently about Aryan invasion model at all. I think even Romilla Thapar, who was a staunch Aryan invasion theorist earlier most of her academic life, seems to have come around on this concept. I will try to get that paper about it.
Maybe, in this forum it will take a little longer to understand the implications of this view. Evidence for Aryans originating outside of Sapt-Sindhu seems to be eluding, however.
Another interesting book on this issue by B.B. Lal with research focus on a unique topic written in 2005: http://www.vedicbooks.net/homeland-aryans-evidence-rigvedic-flora-fauna-archaeology-p-13816.html
I would like to point to just one of the animals listed in this book, Mahisa meaning bhains or water buffalo. Jats will easily identify this animal and not too long ago, every Jat household had this animal. It was an important animal than and is an important animal now too, a continuity. Ravinderjeet recently posted a picture of a bhains which was worth Re. 1 crore (close to $200000) ! That is how dear Mahisa is and should be.
Thanks for good information on readings on one side of the coin; what is latest about versions/points of view inscribed on the other side.
drrajpalsingh
New member
Pehle toh aap yeh tay kar lijye, ki aapko Aryans ka niwas doondna hai ya Aryans ka mool niwas..............
My recommendation, everything started from Africa, so look no further than that. Aap mool sthan Africa se khojna sooroh keejye, aap mool hi nahin, poori jud tak pahunch jayenge. Poora baans bansoori saab kuch mil jayega. If you do not mind my writing all this.
Dost,
Dundhna ka prayaas to 'Aryans ka Mool niwas' hi hai.
Lekin ab aapne new recommendation zari ki hai;
hum bhi aapki nai bansoori ki dhoon sun lete hain.
Kripya share kijiyega kya kahati hai African Bansoori Aryaon ke Mool niwas ke baare mein !!
Aapki baat kuch samajh mein nahi aayi. Kaunse issue ko revise kiya hai?Thanks for revising earlier stated issue on the River Sarswati.
Aapka kis lipi ki aur isara hai !
Aapne jo jaankari bogaj kai ke aryon ke baare me di thi unki lipi.
Thanks for good information on readings on one side of the coin; what is latest about versions/points of view inscribed on the other side.
I think you are providing other point of view. What was missing from your point of view was Sapth-Sindhu as the original home of Aryans.
Anyways, date becomes important if other version has to be understood. If date around 1500 BCE is the date ascribed to first mention of Aryans in India, then central asia and middle east comes into picture, else those areas may not matter for the original place of Aryans.
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