Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[drrajpalsingh]

The question of dating arises after it is established that indeed an event took place. What evidence are you relying on ?

Regards,

Urmila.

You can rely upon Rigveda for relevant information.

 

[urmiladuhan]

You can rely upon Rigveda for relevant information.

You mean the Rigveda written in 5th century C.E ? How can you be sure it is accurately reflecting events that happened say in 2000 B.C.E ?

 

[drrajpalsingh]

You mean the Rigveda written in 5th century C.E ? How can you be sure it is accurately reflecting events that happened say in 2000 B.C.E ?

Another good question but I did not say that Rig Veda was written in 5th century C.E.

Whether the description of the events of those days referred to in the Rigveda are supported or not by other sources like Archaeological finds leads to their authenticity or not? In the instant case, the archaeologists have reached to the conclusion that Harappa city was destroyed around 1900 BC and the traditions recorded in the Rigveda also refer to a fierce battle among the two groups of people around that time. Thus evidences contained in the traditions recorded in Rigveda and archaeological findings supplement each other and leave little scope for doubt about the occurrence of the fierce battle in which hundreds of citadels including the citadel city of Harappa were destroyed.

If you have any clue about the exact date of composition of Rig Veda, kindly share with us !

Thanks

 

[urmiladuhan]

I am making no claims on the contents and authenticity of Rigveda. You are. So the onus of proving the claims lies on you not me.

The so called ancient scriptures, including, Rigveda were written down between approximately 2 nd century C.E - 5th century C.E. Authors were your Brahmin class of your caste system. The events these scriptures describe supposedly occurred few thousand of centuries ago. You think the writings could then be accurate ?

The official position of historians, including the ASI is that no body knows how the Indus Valley Civilization declined or why. But for certain, the decline was a peaceful one.

Another good question but I did not say that Rig Veda was written in 5th century C.E.

Whether the description of the events of those days referred to in the Rigveda are supported or not by other sources like Archaeological finds leads to their authenticity or not? In the instant case, the archaeologists have reached to the conclusion that Harappa city was destroyed around 1900 BC and the traditions recorded in the Rigveda also refer to a fierce battle among the two groups of people around that time. Thus evidences contained in the traditions recorded in Rigveda and archaeological findings supplement each other and leave little scope for doubt about the occurrence of the fierce battle in which hundreds of citadels including the citadel city of Harappa were destroyed.

If you have any clue about the exact date of composition of Rig Veda, kindly share with us !

Thanks

 

[drrajpalsingh]

I am making no claims on the contents and authenticity of Rigveda. You are. So the onus of proving the claims lies on you not me.

The so called ancient scriptures, including, Rigveda were written down between approximately 2 nd century C.E - 5th century C.E. Authors were your Brahmin class of your caste system. The events these scriptures describe supposedly occurred few thousand of centuries ago. You think the writings could then be accurate ?

The official position of historians, including the ASI is that no body knows how the Indus Valley Civilization declined or why. But for certain, the decline was a peaceful one.

Thanks for your terse questions. Though I do not claim what I am going to say on the issues raised as final words yet I would like to share what I have read on these points. These are subject to modification if better alternative is produced on the basis of supportive evidence deduced from Sources of History,[but not on one's whims or conjectures].

The authenticity of the contents in traditions of a nation regarding historical narratives either supported by other sources or even if hinted to but not contradicted by other sources is accepted as historical while using sources for writing history. Therefore, there is no reason to suspect the happening of the war fought by Divodasa mentioned in the Rigveda.

That while talking of the Rigvedic period, the later day or the present day caste classification must not colour our judgement about the authorship of the Rigveda because there existed no iron curtain on social caste system prevailed in those days.

That the Vedas were composed by Risis and not by those persons who were later on designated as Brahamanas in Indian caste hierarchy.

That, it is beyond challenge that Ved Vyas assisted by his disciples did divide the Vedas and indexed them in the form which has never been interfered thereafter. Now, it has been proved that the Battle of Mahabharata occurred c.1400 B.C. and Ved Vyas, who composed the first version of Vijaya [which subsequently developed into Bharata and ultimately into Mahabharata epic] did it soon after the occurrence of the great battle. This means, the Vedas became closed for addition or deletion around that time and have been assigned antiquity in the field of indian literary tradition surpassed by no literary work. Rather Rigveda is considered to be the most ancient literary work, perhaps, first in the world so far as antiquity of the literature goes.

To the best of my knowledge, there exists no historical declaration whatsoever on the causes of the destruction of the Indus Valley [Harappan] civilisation ! If there is, kindly cite one !

Thanks

 

[urmiladuhan]

Dr. Rajpal, your arguments on dating and authenticity of the contents of scriptures is unconvincing. However, we agree that unwritten methods such as traditions and oral communication, bound the historical society together.

Regarding Indus Valley Civilization, it was not destroyed (the word that you use) but slowly dissipated, moving to rural areas from its urban centres. The most likely cause was cessation of trade for a variety of possible reasons.

Thanks for your terse questions. Though I do not claim what I am going to say on the issues raised as final words yet I would like to share what I have read on these points. These are subject to modification if better alternative is produced on the basis of supportive evidence deduced from Sources of History,[but not on one's whims or conjectures].

The authenticity of the contents in traditions of a nation regarding historical narratives either supported by other sources or even if hinted to but not contradicted by other sources is accepted as historical while using sources for writing history. Therefore, there is no reason to suspect the happening of the war fought by Divodasa mentioned in the Rigveda.

That while talking of the Rigvedic period, the later day or the present day caste classification must not colour our judgement about the authorship of the Rigveda because there existed no iron curtain on social caste system prevailed in those days.

That the Vedas were composed by Risis and not by those persons who were later on designated as Brahamanas in Indian caste hierarchy.

That, it is beyond challenge that Ved Vyas assisted by his disciples did divide the Vedas and indexed them in the form which has never been interfered thereafter. Now, it has been proved that the Battle of Mahabharata occurred c.1400 B.C. and Ved Vyas, who composed the first version of Vijaya [which subsequently developed into Bharata and ultimately into Mahabharata epic] did it soon after the occurrence of the great battle. This means, the Vedas became closed for addition or deletion around that time and have been assigned antiquity in the field of indian literary tradition surpassed by no literary work. Rather Rigveda is considered to be the most ancient literary work, perhaps, first in the world so far as antiquity of the literature goes.

To the best of my knowledge, there exists no historical declaration whatsoever on the causes of the destruction of the Indus Valley [Harappan] civilisation ! If there is, kindly cite one !

Thanks

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dr. Rajpal, your arguments on dating and authenticity of the contents of scriptures is unconvincing. However, we agree that unwritten methods such as traditions and oral communication, bound the historical society together.

Regarding Indus Valley Civilization, it was not destroyed (the word that you use) but slowly dissipated, moving to rural areas from its urban centres. The most likely cause was cessation of trade for a variety of possible reasons.

Ms. Urmila Duhan,

Thanks for the comments.

However, I would like to know the grounds of rejection by you of dating and authenticity of the contents of scriptures as mentioned in my last few posts.


Yes, regarding Harappan civilisation coming to an end, this was one of the reasons and not the sole reason.

Thanks and regards.

 

[urmiladuhan]

Well, I think, your views are heavily influenced by brahminical thought or as some may call - orthodox. It needs lot of modifications for it to find acceptance on a global level.

Regards,

Urmila.

Ms. Urmila Duhan,

Thanks for the comments.

However, I would like to know the grounds of rejection by you of dating and authenticity of the contents of scriptures as mentioned in my last few posts.


Yes, regarding Harappan civilisation coming to an end, this was one of the reasons and not the sole reason.

Thanks and regards.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Well, I think, your views are heavily influenced by brahminical thought or as some may call - orthodox. It needs lot of modifications for it to find acceptance on a global level.

Regards,

Urmila.

Thanks for your piece of advice.

In the meantime, I am eager to learn from anywhere and everywhere.

However, I would like to inform you that without assigning any reason supported by solid evidence/source material to label someone as orthodox or progressive would take us nowhere.

Again I request you kindly give reasons for rejecting the viewpoint expressed in the posts hereinabove.

Thanks

 

[urmiladuhan]

Dr. Rajpal, I have not given you any advise but simply stated my opinion on the subject under discussion. On getting advise and professional input, I think if you try to get your ideas published in reputed, international journals, you will get valuable inputs on the quality of your work and lacunae that need improvements etc.

Kind Regards,

Urmila.

Thanks for your piece of advice.

In the meantime, I am eager to learn from anywhere and everywhere.

However, I would like to inform you that without assigning any reason supported by solid evidence/source material to label someone as orthodox or progressive would take us nowhere.

Again I request you kindly give reasons for rejecting the viewpoint expressed in the posts hereinabove.

Thanks

 

[drrajpalsingh]

This is to share with the fellow members that I am always open to welcome constructive criticism of the contents of my posts and am ready to make amendments in them if better alternates are suggested.

Those who are supporters of Orthodox line in history have had earlier tried to reject my posts labelling them indirectly as progressive or influenced by the western historians and also alleging that I was not toeing the line of thought of Indian historians of their choice.

Now another thought has emerged which considers my views on contents and chronology of Vedic literature [and sometimes supported by archaeological finds] about the past history of India as Orthodox or influenced by Brahmanical thought.

None tells me where do exactly I stand on either of these two separate ladders !

This leads me to think, perhaps, I am on the right path and ready to mend my mistakes/errors as and when pointed out by the scholars.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Dr. Rajpal, I have not given you any advise but simply stated my opinion on the subject under discussion. On getting advise and professional input, I think if you try to get your ideas published in reputed, international journals, you will get valuable inputs on the quality of your work and lacunae that need improvements etc.

Kind Regards,

Urmila.

Thanks I shall try.

 

[urmiladuhan]

lol!

Dr. Rajpal, your conundrum is amusing. Wouldn't you be better off doing what you think is right rather than trying to fit in with what people want you to do?

Kind Regards,

Urmila.

This is to share with the fellow members that I am always open to welcome constructive criticism of the contents of my posts and am ready to make amendments in them if better alternates are suggested.

Those who are supporters of Orthodox line in history have had earlier tried to reject my posts labelling them indirectly as progressive or influenced by the western historians and also alleging that I was not toeing the line of thought of Indian historians of their choice.

Now another thought has emerged which considers my views on contents and chronology of Vedic literature [and sometimes supported by archaeological finds] about the past history of India as Orthodox or influenced by Brahmanical thought.

None tells me where do exactly I stand on either of these two separate ladders !

This leads me to think, perhaps, I am on the right path and ready to mend my mistakes/errors as and when pointed out by the scholars.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

lol!

Dr. Rajpal, your conundrum is amusing. Wouldn't you be better off doing what you think is right rather than trying to fit in with what people want you to do?

Kind Regards,

Urmila.

In this respect I follow a proverb: Doing justice is not enough, it should also reflect that justice has been done.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

For understanding the chronological order of Ancient Indian History like the history of the Maurya dynasty, the Puranas have been successfully used and their record has been tallied with other historical evidences. V.A. Smith, the noted historian on Ancient Indian History has also fruitfully done this.

This means the Puranas had been in existence prior to establishment of the Maurya dynasty i.e. c.320 B.C. and it is wrong to think that they came all of a sudden in the Gupta period or even in later times !!

Thanks.

 

[urmiladuhan]

For understanding the chronological order of Ancient Indian History like the history of the Maurya dynasty, the Puranas have been successfully used and their record has been tallied with other historical evidences. V.A. Smith, the noted historian on Ancient Indian History has also fruitfully done this.

This means the Puranas had been in existence prior to establishment of the Maurya dynasty i.e. c.320 B.C. and it is wrong to think that they came all of a sudden in the Gupta period or even in later times !!

Thanks.

this is the kind of stuff probably the priest class (i.e., brahmins etc) told layfolks like rural jats.

 

[drrajpalsingh]

this is the kind of stuff probably the priest class (i.e., brahmins etc) told layfolks like rural jats.

We have solid evidence to show that at least from the days of Chanakya, the Prime Minister of Chandragupta Maurya to to the author of Milindpanoh, Banabhatta, Alberuni, Huen Tsang, H.H.Wilson, F.E. Pargiter, Keith, Mcdonnell, V.A.Smith and several other Indologists have found useful historical evidences in the Puranas.

There is nothing on record that the Puranas were written for ' lay-folks like rural Jats'.

Thanks and regards,

 

[srip108]

Dear Mr Ravi Chaudhry and Dr Rajpal singh, i have been following you, inconsistently unfortunately, for the last few years. have just joined this site to correct misinformation on history of Chaudhri Chhaju Ram of Alakhpura, Pisawa and Pichor-Magrora families but while reading your thread i wondered if any of you are familiar with the book 'In search for the cradle of civilisation' by David Frawley et al, Underworld by Graham hancock and the historical novel 'Return of the Aryans, by Bhagwan gidwani. when read along side B.S Dahiya s book on Jats it opens a whole new world. David frawley (Vamdev Shashtri) has also authored many other books on the history of rig Vedas etc if you d be interested. Rajaram s book on the saraswati river is another one

 

[urmiladuhan]

Dr. Rajpal, you still haven't answered my question in post number 922.



QUOTE=DrRajpalSingh;344207]We have solid evidence to show that at least from the days of Chanakya, the Prime Minister of Chandragupta Maurya to to the author of Milindpanoh, Banabhatta, Alberuni, Huen Tsang, H.H.Wilson, F.E. Pargiter, Keith, Mcdonnell, V.A.Smith and several other Indologists have found useful historical evidences in the Puranas.

There is nothing on record that the Puranas were written for ' lay-folks like rural Jats'.

Thanks and regards,[/QUOTE]

 

[drrajpalsingh]

Ms. Urmila Duhan,

Your question in the post 922 was about the date line of the Rigveda.

Dr. Rajpal, you still haven't answered my question in post number 922..........QUOTE]

The answer to this question was given by yourself as quoted in the successive post by you :

..................................

The so called ancient scriptures, including, Rigveda were written down between approximately 2 nd century C.E - 5th century C.E. Authors were your Brahmin class of your caste system. The events these scriptures describe supposedly occurred few thousand of centuries ago. You think the writings could then be accurate ?
....................

I had avoided my comments on the issue as there seemed to be no meeting point between us about the timeline of the composition of Rigveda. [The dateline read by me say that they were composed sometime in 2nd millenium B.C.E. and dates given by you are 2nd to 5th A.D.].

Thanks and regards.